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Posted: 3/29/2006 3:05:04 PM EDT
How do you suggest I go about it? From front to back, or New Testament first, or what? I have a lot of free time, maybe I will just try and read one chapter a day.

In the past I have tried. I would start on the first page, and usually get to Numbers or Deuteronomy before....losing interest

Would you suggest skipping around to different books and sections?

Is it heresey to use a hi-lighter or underline passages?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 3:19:59 PM EDT
So do it! Front to back would be a good start.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:34:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazyquik:
How do you suggest I go about it? From front to back, or New Testament first, or what? I have a lot of free time, maybe I will just try and read one chapter a day.

In the past I have tried. I would start on the first page, and usually get to Numbers or Deuteronomy before....losing interest

Would you suggest skipping around to different books and sections?

Is it heresey to use a hi-lighter or underline passages?




I'd say starting in the old testament is a BAD idea. Too easy to get lost in the geneologies/laws, etc.

Start in the New Testament but not necessarily Matthew (though Matthew is fine). Read ONE of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John) and then move onto to something else. Galatians, James, 1John, the Peters or Ephesians might be a good next step. Do a few of Paul's letters before you go back and read another Gospel account. Read Acts fairly early. Save Hebrews for almost the end of your NT reading. Save Revelation for last. In fact, I would suggest reading a good bit of the first five books of the OLD testament before attempting Revelation. Some of the imagery in Revelation will make more sense -- or at least seem familar -- if you've got some Old Testament under you belt.

Highlighting is fine. Notes and underlining should be in PENCIL, not pen . . .
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:52:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By crazyquik:
How do you suggest I go about it? From front to back, or New Testament first, or what? I have a lot of free time, maybe I will just try and read one chapter a day.

In the past I have tried. I would start on the first page, and usually get to Numbers or Deuteronomy before....losing interest

Would you suggest skipping around to different books and sections?

Is it heresey to use a hi-lighter or underline passages?




I'd say starting in the old testament is a BAD idea. Too easy to get lost in the geneologies/laws, etc.

Start in the New Testament but not necessarily Matthew (though Matthew is fine). Read ONE of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John) and then move onto to something else. Galatians, James, 1John, the Peters or Ephesians might be a good next step. Do a few of Paul's letters before you go back and read another Gospel account. Read Acts fairly early. Save Hebrews for almost the end of your NT reading. Save Revelation for last. In fact, I would suggest reading a good bit of the first five books of the OLD testament before attempting Revelation. Some of the imagery in Revelation will make more sense -- or at least seem familar -- if you've got some Old Testament under you belt.

Highlighting is fine. Notes and underlining should be in PENCIL, not pen . . .



___





Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:46:03 AM EDT
The Gospel of John is a good starting point.

The four Gospels contain the eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life and teachings (Note: Luke wasn't one of the twelve disciples. He interviewed people to compile his Gospel).

The book of Acts is the story of the early years of the church, picking up where the Gospels left off.

The epistles (Romans, I & II Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, etc.) get into the nuts & bolts of Christian living. They are letters written to churches in various cities.

In my Bible I have passages underlined, notes in the margins, and some lightly highlighted in various colors with colored pencils. I use yellow for key points, red for commands, blue for inheritance (an interesting study is taking note of passages that contain phrases like "in Him", "by Him", "through Him", and "from Him" to get an idea of your identity in Christ).

Remember: It's not just a religion - it's an adventure!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:49:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scuba_ed:



I agree.




Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:11:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
Originally Posted By scuba_ed:



I agree.







If your contribution is ridiculing someone else's post, well, I guess there is something to be said for consistency.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:28:06 AM EDT
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.

Best advice I can give is to First get a good study bible.
most of the good ones have notes before each of the books so you have a feel for what you will be reading. It helps a lot as most books just “jump in” without giving you any background. I would read the first few chapters in Genesis first. Then jump to the New Testament. Read a gospel. Mat, Mark, Luke. John is a little “out there” so I would not make it my first choice. The Acts are a good next choice. Romans can get a little long winded and in general Paul whines a lot in his letters. Jump back to Psalms, Proverbs and read a few but don’t try to read them all. Check out Joshua, and Ruth. Save trying to interpret Revelations and Daniel for later.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:01:46 AM EDT
I have couple of different audio CD sets. My commute is 2.5 hours each day.

I think I "read" Revelations twice a day for about a week. COME LORD JESUS COME!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:32:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.






This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:10:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.






This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.




I really hate to say this. I mean I REALLY hate to say this. I Don't WANT to say this. But I have to . . .

I agree with neshomamench.

At the very least make sure you read through one "book" of the Bible before going to another. I think one of the reasons so many Christians can't agree on doctrine is because so many of us take a verse from here and a verse from there and combine into something they could not have possibly meant when written.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:23:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
Originally Posted By scuba_ed:



I agree.







If your contribution is ridiculing someone else's post, well, I guess there is something to be said for consistency.




Yes there is.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:24:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 9:30:33 AM EDT by EricTheHun]

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.


This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.


Do you speak for all Jews?

hk940 does not speak for all Christians.

Versteht's?

What Christians believe is said succinctly by St. Paul:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture means just that - both Old and New.

Eric The(ChildOfAbraham)Hun
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:27:57 AM EDT
I admit that it can be very difficult reading through the OT, due to the extensive geneologies and measurements contained in it. Still, it can be very rewarding to read through the OT and then the NT. If geneologies or units of measurement get a bit tedious, do a little skimming until you can get past the most tedious parts.

I find the NT so much more meaningful after understanding the foundation that was laid in the OT.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:34:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.


This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.


Do you speak for all Jews?

hk940 does not speak for all Christians.

Versteht's?

What Christians believe is said succinctly by St. Paul:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture means just that - both Old and New.

Eric The(ChildOfAbraham)Hun



Yes, it would be my understanding that the Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed, which would account for most every affiliated Jew out there read the Torah in what are called Parshas. It is a one year cycle that goes in order.

Up until I made my statement, no one here thought that was the way to go about it.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:38:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.


This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.


Do you speak for all Jews?

hk940 does not speak for all Christians.

Versteht's?

Eric The(ChildOfAbraham)Hun




i never said i did? Speak for all Christians. Why the very idea. I will never understand how my fellow Christian brothers can take a statement that is so simple and make is so confusing. What I was trying to say was that books like Genesis are an Easy read wile Numbers is boring (X begat Y)… oh man. Samuel is interesting. Daniel is Obtuse. When your first learning about God and Jesus you need to start small and Work your way to the hard stuff. Sure there is a reason for Numbers and the hard books but when your just coming to know Jesus you should focus on what will bring you to him the quickest. For me that was his own words (the ones in red). Not all the generations that lived from Adam on down to him.

Chill out guys. We are all on the same team.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:58:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 9:58:44 AM EDT by EricTheHun]
Peace, Brother hk940, I simply wanted to remind some Jews that there are disputes among their tribesmen as there are among our tribesmen.

Versteht's?

Eric The(ChildOfAbraham)Hun
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 11:09:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.


This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.


Do you speak for all Jews?

hk940 does not speak for all Christians.

Versteht's?

Eric The(ChildOfAbraham)Hun




i never said i did? Speak for all Christians. Why the very idea. I will never understand how my fellow Christian brothers can take a statement that is so simple and make is so confusing. What I was trying to say was that books like Genesis are an Easy read wile Numbers is boring (X begat Y)… oh man. Samuel is interesting. Daniel is Obtuse. When your first learning about God and Jesus you need to start small and Work your way to the hard stuff. Sure there is a reason for Numbers and the hard books but when your just coming to know Jesus you should focus on what will bring you to him the quickest. For me that was his own words (the ones in red). Not all the generations that lived from Adam on down to him.

Chill out guys. We are all on the same team.



I think the problem was your statement "its not meant to be read that way", when from your more recent post its apparent you meant to say "Its much easier and less tedious reading it this way"

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 12:03:47 PM EDT
OK, let's drop the hijacking!

Crazyquik, you can see that there are differing opinions on how to go about reading it (sequence).

Just do this:

1. Before reading, ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding.

2. Start reading. Eventually you'll get through it.

Also, consider keeping a notebook or 3X5 cards handy so you can note specific passages that jump out at you.

Some sources, like Christian Book Distributors, have books that guide a systematic study of the Word.

Enjoy the journey!

The rest of you guys, go fight in another thread.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 12:19:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
OK, let's drop the hijacking!

Crazyquik, you can see that there are differing opinions on how to go about reading it (sequence).

Just do this:

1. Before reading, ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding.

2. Start reading. Eventually you'll get through it.

Also, consider keeping a notebook or 3X5 cards handy so you can note specific passages that jump out at you.

Some sources, like Christian Book Distributors, have books that guide a systematic study of the Word.

Enjoy the journey!

The rest of you guys, go fight in another thread.



Why does it have to be a fight? And who is making it a fight. A pretty valid question was asked. The POV of the people who wrote these books was given. While some may disagree isnt it interesting to know?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:59:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.




The significance of the order of the books may apply to the old testament but it does NOT apply to the New Testament. They are not written in the order they appear and there is no reason for them to be read in that order.

The reason for a Christian to start in the new testament should be obvious. Yes, I'm making an assumption that the poster comes more from a Christian background rather than a strictly Jewish background. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't be asking the question.

THe new testament is the old testament REVEALED. The old testament is the new testament CONCEALED.

Yes, I realize that most Jews don't have much use for the new testament. I'm truly sorry for that. The new testament scriptures tell us that God made a move 2,000 years ago and that his people -- Those that are Jews INWARDLY -- are those who moved on with God. The new testament tells us the fate of those who would not move on with God's move: weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you want to read the conclusion of the matter -- the culmination -- the FULLFILLMENT -- you begin with the NEW testament. Yes, read the old testament for the types, shadows and prophecies it contains, But the latest word on how man will EXPERIENCE the PROMISE of the old testament is contained in the NEW testament.

The children of Israel who refused to mix their faith with God's move as recorded in Exodus died in the wilderness. That story is an allegory for us today. The exodus of God's people continues — it's a spiritual exodus from dispensations of truth and spirit to the fullfillment of the promise. The promise of the old testament is that one day man and God would have a relationship. He would walk in them and they in him. He would be their God and they his people. That promis is NOT fullfilled in the old testament. It IS fullfilled in the New Testatment.

Those who will not accept that the Exodus continues will die in the wilderness of lessor doctrine and religion. God wanted his people to move OUT of bondage, OUT of the wilderness and on into Canaan and Jerusalum. He wants no one to stay behind. Jesus was the one who showed and led the way to God's Kingdom. You will only find that message in the new testament. Yes, you will find allusions to it in the old but it's not fullfilled there.

And, THAT, my friend is the reason you begin with the new testament.

Heb 9:8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:44:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 5:49:44 PM EDT by neshomamench]

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.




The significance of the order of the books may apply to the old testament but it does NOT apply to the New Testament. They are not written in the order they appear and there is no reason for them to be read in that order.

The reason for a Christian to start in the new testament should be obvious. Yes, I'm making an assumption that the poster comes more from a Christian background rather than a strictly Jewish background. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't be asking the question.

THe new testament is the old testament REVEALED. The old testament is the new testament CONCEALED.

Yes, I realize that most Jews don't have much use for the new testament. I'm truly sorry for that. The new testament scriptures tell us that God made a move 2,000 years ago and that his people -- Those that are Jews INWARDLY -- are those who moved on with God. The new testament tells us the fate of those who would not move on with God's move: weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you want to read the conclusion of the matter -- the culmination -- the FULLFILLMENT -- you begin with the NEW testament. Yes, read the old testament for the types, shadows and prophecies it contains, But the latest word on how man will EXPERIENCE the PROMISE of the old testament is contained in the NEW testament.

The children of Israel who refused to mix their faith with God's move as recorded in Exodus died in the wilderness. That story is an allegory for us today. The exodus of God's people continues — it's a spiritual exodus from dispensations of truth and spirit to the fullfillment of the promise. The promise of the old testament is that one day man and God would have a relationship. He would walk in them and they in him. He would be their God and they his people. That promis is NOT fullfilled in the old testament. It IS fullfilled in the New Testatment.

Those who will not accept that the Exodus continues will die in the wilderness of lessor doctrine and religion. God wanted his people to move OUT of bondage, OUT of the wilderness and on into Canaan and Jerusalum. He wants no one to stay behind. Jesus was the one who showed and led the way to God's Kingdom. You will only find that message in the new testament. Yes, you will find allusions to it in the old but it's not fullfilled there.

And, THAT, my friend is the reason you begin with the new testament.

Heb 9:8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Thats all good and I understand you believe that, you just have to understand that the way you look at the Hebrew scriptures is alien to the people that wrote them.

For example, Christians say the Old Testiment, the Hebrew Bible, Points towards Jesus in the form of " Types and Shadows" a common term and one you used. To us that doesnt make anysence. Using that you can find anytgthing you want....especialy since it is often advocated to start with the New Testiment first, then you can go back into the Hebrew Bible and make it fit. To us, "Types and Shadows" means nothing in the face of such clear verses as Deuteronomy 13. To us that sums up everything. Obey the Law, Follow only G-d, nothing is to be added to his word, and people who perform miricles but try and change the Law are false. We are commanded to make a careful investigation and if it leads us astray from G-d and his Law, it is false.


www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9977

In the next chapter you will find this, remember this was written for the Jews by the Jews in the traditional Jewish Language

2. For you are a holy people to the Lord, your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a treasured people for Him, out of all the nations that are upon the earth.

We dont need anything else. Read on in these verses, We dont need anything else to get out of some Exodus as you claim. It is because we where slaves in Egypt. You will see that time and time again. Anyother kind of relationship with G-d is forbiden. To the Jewish people Jesus solves problems we never had so it makes no sense.

On another note...and it is something that totally sliped my mind. In Christian Bibles, The order of the books is very different than how a Hebrew Bible orders them and there are some differences on where books are placed.

Again, I understand you and others see it another way. Thats fine, but this is how the Jews see it.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:01:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Again, I understand you and others see it another way. Thats fine, but this is how the Jews see it.



OK, that's cool. But the topic at hand is how should a curious person approach the Bible. I'm assuming he meant the Christian Bible otherwise he probably would have phrased his question differently. I offered advice based on a Christian perspective that said, basically, don't get hung up on the old testament but move right into the new testament.

Frankly, I think that's a hellavu lot more relevant advice than having a Jew offer up a laughing icon. Do you really think that is useful to the person seeking advice? Would your advice to a Christian — or at least someone who was raised in a Christian world — REALLY be to study the old testament before getting to the heart of Christianity?

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:21:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

. . . Thats all good and I understand you believe that, you just have to understand that the way you look at the Hebrew scriptures is alien to the people that wrote them.

For example, Christians say the Old Testiment, the Hebrew Bible, Points towards Jesus in the form of " Types and Shadows" a common term and one you used. To us that doesnt make anysence . . . .




Well, D'uh . . .

If it made any sense to you, then maybe you'd believe. Or, put the other way, if you believed, it would make sense to you. By definition, a Jew rejects the truth of Jesus. Given that, it's not hard to see why they wouldn't look at OT scriptures as a prophecy of Christ.

Paul was a Jew, a devout Jew, according to the scriptures. And yet he saw the truth in Christ. Clearly, the modern definition of a Jew does not match Paul's definition. To Paul, a Jew was simply a follower of God — someone who moved by FAITH. And Paul knew that God was leading his people to a new covenant through Christ Jesus.

Rom 2: 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Finally, it's wrong to say that the way Christians look at the Hebrew scriptures is alien to the people that wrote them. God wrote the scriptures and the people who transcribed them are dead. Your people today did not write the scriptures. They are interpreting them — that's no different than what Christians do. They apply an understanding to them and those understandings form their doctrines. Jews today can say the scriptures don't point to a messenger from God who would open up a new covenent because they don't want to believe that's what the scriptures say. But just because today's Jews take that view does not mean that the orginal prophets would agree. After all, the Jews have a long history of not hearing the prophets.

Again, see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. There is indeed a great gulf fixed and that gulf is unbelief.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:22:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Again, I understand you and others see it another way. Thats fine, but this is how the Jews see it.



OK, that's cool. But the topic at hand is how should a curious person approach the Bible. I'm assuming he meant the Christian Bible otherwise he probably would have phrased his question differently. I offered advice based on a Christian perspective that said, basically, don't get hung up on the old testament but move right into the new testament.

Frankly, I think that's a hellavu lot more relevant advice than having a Jew offer up a laughing icon. Do you really think that is useful to the person seeking advice? Would your advice to a Christian — or at least someone who was raised in a Christian world — REALLY be to study the old testament before getting to the heart of Christianity?




Hold on there, I did not offer a smilie, I offered an explination. I am not responsible for the actions of others on an internet forum. Then I went on to explain the logic behind why the Jews do it the way they do.

I honestly believe that if someone who is not Christian in anyway reads the Hebrew Bible first, they are not very likely to buy into the New Testiment. Even from a secular standpoint Christianity has had some of its lead success among the Jews. It was not until it was spread to the Gentiles that it flourished.

If you are Christian and you have your own Ideas about how it should be done, do you not think that at the very least some Christians might find it interesting that the Jews do it different? Even The New Testiment talks about how Jesus was called to the Torah to read from it and the section of the Prophets in the Synogogue.....exactly how the Jews do it today. Why do Christians try with all their heart to be Christ like, but anything the story relates that he did that was Jewish seems to not be a part of what Christians do? that I dont understand.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:32:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

. . . Thats all good and I understand you believe that, you just have to understand that the way you look at the Hebrew scriptures is alien to the people that wrote them.

For example, Christians say the Old Testiment, the Hebrew Bible, Points towards Jesus in the form of " Types and Shadows" a common term and one you used. To us that doesnt make anysence . . . .




Well, D'uh . . .

If it made any sense to you, then maybe you'd believe. Or, put the other way, if you believed, it would make sense to you. By definition, a Jew rejects the truth of Jesus. Given that, it's not hard to see why they wouldn't look at OT scriptures as a prophecy of Christ.

Paul was a Jew, a devout Jew, according to the scriptures. And yet he saw the truth in Christ. Clearly, the modern definition of a Jew does not match Paul's definition. To Paul, a Jew was simply a follower of God — someone who moved by FAITH. And Paul knew that God was leading his people to a new covenant through Christ Jesus.

Rom 2: 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Finally, it's wrong to say that the way Christians look at the Hebrew scriptures is alien to the people that wrote them. God wrote the scriptures and the people who transcribed them are dead. Your people today did not write the scriptures. They are interpreting them — that's no different than what Christians do. They apply an understanding to them and those understandings form their doctrines. Jews today can say the scriptures don't point to a messenger from God who would open up a new covenent because they don't want to believe that's what the scriptures say. But just because today's Jews take that view does not mean that the orginal prophets would agree. After all, the Jews have a long history of not hearing the prophets.

Again, see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. There is indeed a great gulf fixed and that gulf is unbelief.



Again, if you read just a few more verses after Dueteronomy 13 you will see who G-d says can rule in matters of the Law, Levites, Cohens and Judges. That is pretty specific. G-d says you must do exactly as they say. We still have this system. That is exactly what a Rabbi is. Some of them go by the title of "Dyan" or Judge.

So again, God says Follow my Law, You, my people who were slaves in Egypt. Anything that tries to change that is false even if they do miricles. Do not add or subtract from what I am telling you, and these specific people are the people that you must listen too. That is how the Jews see it.

Jesus talks about the Pharasees that sit in Moses seat. I doubt you know this, but Orthodox Jews today are what you would call the Pharasees, the chain is unbroken.

The Way you look at the scriptures IS alien to us.

What does Jesus do for us? If I believe in him I get saved and go to heaven, if i dont, I go to hell. Well, Jews dont even believe in heaven or hell, so he is a solution to a problem we never had. This is why it is alien to us. (one of many reasons)

Again this is how the Jews see it.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:49:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.






This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.



Exactly!

I posted the smilie because I find it hysterical that anyone would read any book in this fashion.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:10:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:What does Jesus do for us? If I believe in him I get saved and go to heaven, if i dont, I go to hell. Well, Jews dont even believe in heaven or hell, so he is a solution to a problem we never had. This is why it is alien to us. (one of many reasons)

Again this is how the Jews see it.




I believe you just confirmed what I understood about Jews. But just so there is no confusion let me ask a couple of direct questions:

Do Jews believe in salvation?
If so, what is the "plan" (path) to salvation laid out in the Jewish Bible?
If not, what is the point of obedience to God? Is it to enjoy blessings in this life or something else?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:13:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:
I honestly believe that if someone who is not Christian in anyway reads the Hebrew Bible first, they are not very likely to buy into the New Testiment.



Of course you believe that. To state otherwise would beg the question, then why don't you believe. It seems to me one cannot hold to "traditional" judism without rejecting the new testament.

But that's really like saying one can't be a faithful member of the Amish faith and accept modern ways of life. It sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:14:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:I posted the smilie because I find it hysterical that anyone would read any book in this fashion.


The Bible is not ONE book. It is many books combined into one volume.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:44:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 6:15:33 AM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:What does Jesus do for us? If I believe in him I get saved and go to heaven, if i dont, I go to hell. Well, Jews dont even believe in heaven or hell, so he is a solution to a problem we never had. This is why it is alien to us. (one of many reasons)

Again this is how the Jews see it.




I believe you just confirmed what I understood about Jews. But just so there is no confusion let me ask a couple of direct questions:

Do Jews believe in salvation?
If so, what is the "plan" (path) to salvation laid out in the Jewish Bible?
If not, what is the point of obedience to God? Is it to enjoy blessings in this life or something else?



___

Re:
"Do Jews believe in salvation?"

No, Jews don't believe in salvation. Salvation from what? The Torah proscribes the High Holy Days, by which Jews assemble before G-d and their fellows to ask forgiveness. So from a Jewish perspective, again, there was never, ever, a need for salvation. It was Christian eschatology that needs this concept.


"If so, what is the "plan" (path) to salvation laid out in the Jewish Bible?"

The above answer is still applicable here, though let me add to the covenant G-d gave to the Jews (to include the Torah and mitvot) served not only as the model for the nascent nation-state of Israel, but also elaborated upon the responsiblity mankind has to G-d, mankinds responsibility to each other, and G-d's responsibility to mankind, The first commandment (which is absent from the Catholic and Protestant versions of the commandments) spell this out clearly, and is very similar to other ancient (or current) documents outlining the parties involved and their relationship. Again, as I've mentioned before, the Hebrew Bible, the Torah, is not the same document as the "Old Testament." Aside from many translation errors, it has many editorial deletes from the original text that would make it a totally foreign document to a Jew...thougha novel read for others.

That said, there's little emphasis in Judaism to an afterlife; it's the way we live our lives on this earth, now, that can truely make life a paradise or a living hell for ourselves and those we associate with.


"If not, what is the point of obedience to God? Is it to enjoy blessings in this life or something else?"

The point of obedience to G-d is clear, for the same reasons given above. At it's core, Judaism is a religion of ethics, the basis was the gift of Torah to the Jews. If we follow the Torah, then our actions will be pleasing to mankind before G-d.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:08:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 7:09:18 AM EDT by neshomamench]

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By neshomamench:What does Jesus do for us? If I believe in him I get saved and go to heaven, if i dont, I go to hell. Well, Jews dont even believe in heaven or hell, so he is a solution to a problem we never had. This is why it is alien to us. (one of many reasons)

Again this is how the Jews see it.




I believe you just confirmed what I understood about Jews. But just so there is no confusion let me ask a couple of direct questions:

Do Jews believe in salvation?
If so, what is the "plan" (path) to salvation laid out in the Jewish Bible?
If not, what is the point of obedience to God? Is it to enjoy blessings in this life or something else?



___

Re:
"Do Jews believe in salvation?"

No, Jews don't believe in salvation. Salvation from what? The Torah proscribes the High Holy Days, by which Jews assemble before G-d and their fellows to ask forgiveness. So from a Jewish perspective, again, there was never, ever, a need for salvation. It was Christian eschatology that needs this concept.


"If so, what is the "plan" (path) to salvation laid out in the Jewish Bible?"

The above answer is still applicable here, though let me add to the covenant G-d gave to the Jews (to include the Torah and mitvot) served not only as the model for the nascent nation-state of Israel, but also elaborated upon the responsiblity mankind has to G-d, mankinds responsibility to each other, and G-d's responsibility to mankind, The first commandment (which is absent from the Catholic and Protestant versions of the commandments) spell this out clearly, and is very similar to other ancient (or current) documents outlining the parties involved and their relationship. Again, as I've mentioned before, the Hebrew Bible, the Torah, is not the same document as the "Old Testament." Aside from many translation errors, it has many editorial deletes from the original text that would make it a totally foreign document to a Jew...thougha novel read for others.

That said, there's little emphasis in Judaism to an afterlife; it's the way we live our lives on this earth, now, that can truely make life a paradise or a living hell for ourselves and those we associate with.


"If not, what is the point of obedience to God? Is it to enjoy blessings in this life or something else?"

The point of obedience to G-d is clear, for the same reasons given above. At it's core, Judaism is a religion of ethics, the basis was the gift of Torah to the Jews. If we follow the Torah, then our actions will be pleasing to mankind before G-d.






I think scuba gave a good outline. I would probably mention a few of the more mystical aspect of Judaism such as Reincarnation and again the fact that there is no Heaven or hell. Just migration of the soul. No one needs to be saved from anything. The soul will take its path regardless of faith or creed.

Again, some may disagree, but perhaps some might start to understand that Jesus solves problem the Jews never had. Most every thing Jesus is supposed to be and offer is alien to Judaism.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:15:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:I posted the smilie because I find it hysterical that anyone would read any book in this fashion.


The Bible is not ONE book. It is many books combined into one volume.



OK, let me put it another way.

Christians have a bible with an "Old Testament" and a "New Testament". They read about Jesus in the "NT" and then proceed to the "OT" to confirm his identity when there is no mention of Jesus by name in the "OT" at all.

I take it you do not find that a bit odd?


Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:30:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:I posted the smilie because I find it hysterical that anyone would read any book in this fashion.


The Bible is not ONE book. It is many books combined into one volume.



OK, let me put it another way.

Christians have a bible with an "Old Testament" and a "New Testament". They read about Jesus in the "NT" and then proceed to the "OT" to confirm his identity when there is no mention of Jesus by name in the "OT" at all.

I take it you do not find that a bit odd?






I don't find it at all odd.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:59:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher

I don't find it at all odd.



As I expected.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:04:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher

I don't find it at all odd.



As I expected.



There's a logical response to your question, OldGuy. Since it would come accross as trolling against Jews, I'll refrain.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:09:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:
[There's a logical response to your question, OldGuy. Since it would come accross as trolling against Jews, I'll refrain.



Good idea!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:45:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
[There's a logical response to your question, OldGuy. Since it would come accross as trolling against Jews, I'll refrain.



Good idea!



I find it odd. I personally have great regard for Jews and I'm very impressed with what Jews have contributed over the past few thousand years (including what is found in the Bible).

Yet OldGuy and ScubaEd frequently seem to try and incite a negative reaction from Christians like me. It's as if you want me to say something anti-Jewish.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:58:20 AM EDT
A suggestion for you would be to read larger portions of scripture at a time...At least a chapter and if you can, read the whole book of whatever you read...the scriptures are to be taken in context and if you read only a verse here and there, you will not see the context.

The O.T. interprets the New and the New Testament interprets the Old and the entire scriptures can be interpreted With scripture.

Some one suggested the Gospel of John and that is a good place...If you want a summary of the O.T. read Romans and Hebrews; much shorter but it gives you a overview of those tough chapters in the O.T.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:04:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 10:04:42 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By hk940:
... Best advice I can give is to First get a good study bible...



+1

Just remember that Scripture is Scripture, the study notes are not.

FWIW I like the Ryrie (KJV), but I certainly don't agree with all of the notes/comments/interpretations...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:14:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
[There's a logical response to your question, OldGuy. Since it would come accross as trolling against Jews, I'll refrain.



Good idea!



I find it odd. I personally have great regard for Jews and I'm very impressed with what Jews have contributed over the past few thousand years (including what is found in the Bible).

Yet OldGuy and ScubaEd frequently seem to try and incite a negative reaction from Christians like me. It's as if you want me to say something anti-Jewish.



Got news for you, if his comments make you want to say something anti-Jewish then you're an anti-semite. If they just make you think he's an idiot or a jerk, then you're most likely not an anti-semite.

Oldguy and ScubaEd are simply stating the Jewish perspective. I'm not sure there is a way to state the Jewish perspective without it being offensive to Christians. My perspective on God is probably offensive to any theist, yet its not meant to be, its simply my POV on the concept of God.

They do sometimes make their statements a bit nasty, but everyone in this forum has done it at least once. Consider them the Jewish equivalents of Belloc and ETH I keed, I keed, no hateful messages!!!

You wanna see some real fun, make a troll account and post as a member of Scientology and watch how just about everyone posts and comments

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:44:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dino:

Oldguy and ScubaEd are simply stating the Jewish perspective. I'm not sure there is a way to state the Jewish perspective without it being offensive to Christians.

I think it is next to impossible.

They do sometimes make their statements a bit nasty, but everyone in this forum has done it at least once. Consider them the Jewish equivalents of Belloc and ETH I keed, I keed, no hateful messages!!![/quote

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:55:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
[There's a logical response to your question, OldGuy. Since it would come accross as trolling against Jews, I'll refrain.



Good idea!



I find it odd. I personally have great regard for Jews and I'm very impressed with what Jews have contributed over the past few thousand years (including what is found in the Bible).

Yet OldGuy and ScubaEd frequently seem to try and incite a negative reaction from Christians like me. It's as if you want me to say something anti-Jewish.



You stated that a reply to my question would be considered trolling. This could possibly get the thread locked. I do not like to see that happen.

I replied good idea to commend your show of restraint.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:20:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Please don’t read it cover to cover.
It’s not meant to be read that way.






This is why The Jews are all posting the little laughing smilie.

Again, the people that brought these books to the world, read them starting at page 1 verse 1. So it is meant to be read that way.

I find it very odd that Christians think that is a bad idea.


+1
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:23:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 11:42:30 AM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By neshomamench:
Why does it have to be a fight? And who is making it a fight. A pretty valid question was asked. The POV of the people who wrote these books was given. While some may disagree isnt it interesting to know?



It was probably the laughing smileys with no description from members some deem antagonistic and contentious. Some expect certain motivations from others. I have certainly been guilty of it.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:45:01 AM EDT
Well, let's look at some behavior patterns:

Original post by scuba_ed was to quote a Christian's response and then post a

OldGuy follows up with another:
"I agree" referring to scuba_ed's response.

Constructive? Of course not.

It wasn't until neshomamench posted something that we got something constructive from an Arfcom Jew on this thread. OldGuy then indicates that he is in agreement with neshomamench, but still doesn't contribute anything but to suggest how hysterical he finds the suggestions of certain posts of Christians.


OldGuy's next response includes a backhanded question about Christians reading the NT and then the OT. Frankly, since this is a discussion about the Bible and not the Torah, I don't see why OldGuy makes such a fuss about such things. Unless OldGuy has motives other than trying to hellp the original poster...

When another poster responds to OldGuy's obviously loaded question and suggests that reading the NT first isn't odd, OG responds "As I expected." Again, hardly constructive.

I'm seeing this kind of behavior pattern from OldGuy over and over again, and frequently from Scuba_ed too. Not quite blatant trolling, but almost nothing constructive ever offered either, and usually with a heavy dose of ridicule and sarcasm.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:17:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 12:33:53 PM EDT by 0ldGuy]

Originally Posted By Shane333:

I'm seeing this kind of behavior pattern from OldGuy over and over again, and frequently from Scuba_ed too. Not quite blatant trolling, but almost nothing constructive ever offered either, and usually with a heavy dose of ridicule and sarcasm.



I think you are being overly sensitive.

I asked a legitimate question, you are not compelled to answer so ignore the question and me.

You want constructive criticism from a Jew to a Christian????

I do not think so.


ETA

Constructive Criticism

For those who might be so inclined the local Lubavitcher Rabbi has what he terms a "Bnai Noah Class" which is doing very well as far as particpation goes.

Perhaps there is something like this is your area.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:23:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

I'm seeing this kind of behavior pattern from OldGuy over and over again, and frequently from Scuba_ed too. Not quite blatant trolling, but almost nothing constructive ever offered either, and usually with a heavy dose of ridicule and sarcasm.



I think you are being overly sensitive.

I asked a legitimate question, you are not compelled to answer so ignore the question and me.

You want constructive criticism from a Jew to a Christian????

I do not think so.



Then why the hell are you posting in this thread?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:25:13 PM EDT
i'm not even going to read the other posts...

read the Bible cover to cover or skip around. . it doesn't matter

there is KJV, NIV, NKJV. . . the list goes on with the different ones

NKJV is easy to read as well as NIV . . IMO KJV is the most difficult to read

just read it!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:14:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:09:24 PM EDT
I am not going to give an opinion, but what has helped me. I stuggled reading the Bible and wanted MORE.
My wife and I joined a 3 year Bible study and really help with the understanding and able to ask questions. We love it.
I use a Quest Study Bible. It points out stuff and very helpful.
I pray that you can get started and hope all goes well.
Another note: I even took 3 classes at Lincoln Christian College and it was exciting for me.
Good luck

God Bless,

Song Dog
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