Actually, it may come as a surprise that I am going to jump in to some small degree, and make one small point that may serve in abdulrahman's favor.

He is speaking of the original teachings as written sola scriptura...

... NOT as practiced.

Actually I went to college with many Moslems, including Moslem women.   There WOULD be much to admire about a faith that DID value women for their intellect instead of their physical appearance, but alas.

One aspect people are leaving out is that technically Shari`a law cannot be practiced anywhere - there is no Islamic state, thus, Shari`a law cannot be enforced. So called "Islamic" states are invalid; until the caliphate is reinstated and the Muslim world unites as one, there is no Islamic state.

What you see in Saudi Arabia and other countries is a perversion of Islam that has gained such popularity and power that it really needs to be destroyed now. For example, I don't presume any of you would know that castration in forbidden in Islam; however, that doesn't stop the Saudis from performing castrations on men in the "name of Shari`a", and executions of raped women when Islam commands that they be consoled and comforted and supported.

I wonder where we pagans rank in the list?



And wasn't this supposed to be an athiest-bashing thread, not a muslim bashing thread?  kidding, of course, about bashing athiests -- they're usually good people.

Why the blatent muslim bashing going on here?  Why doesn't VAnumnutz do anything about it?  Oh, thats right.  Its OK to bash muslims in the religion forum.  Its not like christians recognize it as a valid religion, so they're fair game.

Quoted: I wonder where we pagans rank in the list?

At the bottom of everyone's list, of course.

Right in there with animists from Africa.

Why the blatent muslim bashing going on here?  Why doesn't VAnumnutz do anything about it?  Oh, thats right.  Its OK to bash muslims in the religion forum.  Its not like christians recognize it as a valid religion, so they're fair game.

10...9...8...7...

Eric The(Houston,WeHaveAProblem)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder where we pagans rank in the list? At the bottom of everyone's list, of course. Right in there with animists from Africa.

How much does everyone want to bet that that bit of bashing gets by without VAnumnutz saying anything about it?

Honestly, ETH, I expected better out of you.

Why the blatent muslim bashing going on here?  Why doesn't VAnumnutz do anything about it?  Oh, thats right.  Its OK to bash muslims in the religion forum.  Its not like christians recognize it as a valid religion, so they're fair game. 10...9...8...7... Eric The(Houston,WeHaveAProblem)Hun

Yup.  Religion forum = tolerance ONLY for christians and sometimes the jewish.  Seems like a problem to me.

Quoted: You think that all Christians and Jews in Islamic countries are killed? Lol. Why good heavens, no! Well, just the 'uppity' Christians and Jews are killed. Yoiu know, the ones who breath regularly. Nice to see that your not bound by facts when you argue Why do you think that they are so oppressed? Because they live in Third World shitholes? Because they brought it on themselves? Having an oppressive government is the fault of the people interesting concept. You know what happened when the Jews were being oppressed in Europe? A lot of them moved to Islamic states where they would be protected. Yes, how many centuries did you have to go back for that one? Not far really just the last century The Middle Ages? Wow, even though I'm trying to separate what Islam teaches from what some Muslims do, you insist on posting things that try to make them into one. You are like the lone voice of reason in this world then, it would appear. And they claim to be one, and no one of any significant reputation disputes this. It seems that people think that every Muslim is responsible for the action of other people that claim to be or are Muslims. Religious leaders constantly condemn the actions of terrorists if you haven't heard them it does not mean they do not do so   It's not like Christians have never murdered Muslims. We did indeed when we were trying to get Christian lands back from those in Islam who stole them. Think Spain, think Syria, think Egypt, think Lebanon, think Turkey, think a lot of others formerly Christian nations brought under the sword. It works both ways, you know. Most of the lands taken by the Muslims were those of the states that were attacking Islam or oppressing there people Eric The(Regrettable)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: You think that all Christians and Jews in Islamic countries are killed? Lol. Why good heavens, no! Well, just the 'uppity' Christians and Jews are killed. Yoiu know, the ones who breath regularly. Nice to see that your not bound by facts when you argue indeed, I am beginning to think that people here only read history books that support their own viewpoint. Why do you think that they are so oppressed? Because they live in Third World shitholes? Because they brought it on themselves? Having an oppressive government is the fault of the people interesting concept. +1, I guess those damn Jews/Rwandans/Sudanese brought their own deaths upon themselves, eh Eric? Wouldn't surprise me if you thought that way. You know what happened when the Jews were being oppressed in Europe? A lot of them moved to Islamic states where they would be protected. Yes, how many centuries did you have to go back for that one? Not far really just the last century last quarter of the 19th century to the present, actually; with a major increase in hostilities during the 1940's to the present. The Middle Ages? Wow, even though I'm trying to separate what Islam teaches from what some Muslims do, you insist on posting things that try to make them into one. You are like the lone voice of reason in this world then, it would appear. And they claim to be one, and no one of any significant reputation disputes this. It seems that people think that every Muslim is responsible for the action of other people that claim to be or are Muslims. Religious leaders constantly condemn the actions of terrorists if you haven't heard them it does not mean they do not do so   It's not like Christians have never murdered Muslims. We did indeed when we were trying to get Christian lands back from those in Islam who stole them. Think Spain, think Syria, think Egypt, think Lebanon, think Turkey, think a lot of others formerly Christian nations brought under the sword. It works both ways, you know. Most of the lands taken by the Muslims were those of the states that were attacking Islam or oppressing there people Shh.... those countries were only trying to gain more territory for their own countries help their Christian brothers. Eric The(Regrettable)Hun

So is that the sad, lamentable history that is being taught in the Madrasses nowadays?

It figures!

Saladin is so far remote in History that you must clutch at some modern acheivement with which to hold on to your shaken military pride.

Suicide bombers? Roadside bombs?

That's about as good as it gets.

Now....

Precisely which Moslem countries offered the Jews respite from the nasty Christians in Europe, and under what circumstances?

humzai said 'the last century', but I am uncertain if he means the 19th or 20th.

Or maybe even the 12th Century for all I know!

It's hard to tell with some folks, sometimes.

Yes, the Moslems were in Central France at Tours in 732 AD when Charles Martel handed them their asses!



Now, what were the Moslems doing in Spain and in France in those days?

Reclaiming 'formerly Moslem lands'?

Hardly!

They were, uh.....hell bent on conquest.

By the sword.

Against lands that never heard of Allah, or his messenger, or anyone connected with either.

Ask Jan Sobieski why he had to leave Poland with an Army to kick some Moslem ass outside the Gates of Vienna, Austria, in Central Europe, in the 17th Century.



'Reclaiming lost Moslem lands' in Europe again, numbzai humzai?



So, thanks be to Charles Martel and Jan Sobieski!

Without them, well, the world would be a dark place, indeed.

A very, very dark place.

Eric The(WesternCiv101)Hun

Have fun arguing. The world will always be a dark place for you Eric unless Allah SWA guides you to the straight path.

Quoted: Have fun arguing. The world will always be a dark place for you Eric unless Allah SWA guides you to the straight path.

Nonsense!

The Son is always Shining in my world.

Day or Night.

Eric The(ChristianAndWesternCiv101)Hun

.

Quoted:

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder where we pagans rank in the list? At the bottom of everyone's list, of course. Right in there with animists from Africa.

How much does everyone want to bet that that bit of bashing gets by without VAnumnutz saying anything about it?

Why?

I'm not 'bashing' anyone.

I'm simply telling the Truth and pagans think it's bashing.

Honestly, ETH, I expected better out of you.

Why?

Now, admit it, when it comes to historical paganism, pagans have done a pretty thorough and efficient job exterminating each other.

Imagine the surprised pagan Druid priests on the Isle of Mona when the pagan legions under Roman General Suetonius showed up at their sacred wood?

Killed every last one of them and then ordered his men to chop down every tree on the island!

One pagan killing another.

Much as historically, Christians have caused the most misery for...themselves.

You obviously haven't been around here all that long if your expectations for him are higher than his comments towards you.

I speak the truth...and it causes some folks to moan, b+tch, and complain.

What color is the sky in your world?

One common trait among the zealots is a self righteousness that transcends logic & common sense. Don't be alarmed by ETH's piggish comments comparing you to animals in Africa. He simply knows no better...not that it's an acceptable excuse for anyone...but...it's his excuse....whether or not he's aware enough of his intellectual limitations and self inflicted brainwashing.

Well now, where to begin?

First, animism in Africa, not 'animals.'

I would have thought a self-proclaimed pagan would know a little about other pagans, but I see that some here may be as narrow-minded as they claim the rest of us are.

Let's see, where does 'paganism' flourish?

Hmmm....let's look at a map...of the Religions of the World.....



To put it succinctly, the only places that you can find large masses of pagans...are in some pretty piss-poor places.

Places that you would not likely wish to visit.

But I encourage you to do so!



Soon.

Eric The(SendPostcards,IfTheyHaveAPostalService!)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder where we pagans rank in the list? At the bottom of everyone's list, of course. Right in there with animists from Africa. How much does everyone want to bet that that bit of bashing gets by without VAnumnutz saying anything about it? Honestly, ETH, I expected better out of you.

That's adorable. You expected better.....from ETH.

You obviously haven't been around here long enough to realize that the zealots....regardless of their "faith" (Christian, Islamic....) view non-believers as the enemy. Consider yourself lucky that the zealot's that inhabit this nation haven't yet taken flying lessons in commercial jets.

What seperates extreme Islam & extreme Christianity are simply shades of grey. Given the proper climate here in the U.S., you'd see our own, home grown lunatics attempting to enforce their will in ways you couldn't even imagine.

I'm not suggesting ETH would be one of those.....though I'm certainly not suggesting he wouldn't be either.

Back to your "expectations" of ETH regarding any belief system outside his own? Don't have expectations...his brainwashing is complete....you are the enemy.....regardless of how many smileys are in his posts.

Quoted:

You obviously haven't been around here long enough to realize that the zealots....regardless of their "faith" (Christian, Islamic....) view non-believers as the enemy. Consider yourself lucky that the zealot's that inhabit this nation haven't yet taken flying lessons in commercial jets.

I would imagine that a great many commercial airline pilots are Fundamentalist Christians.

But, strange as it may sound to your ears, there is no reward in Christianity for suicide, nor for cold-blooded murder.

On the contrary, any Christian committing such acts would find themselves in a very nasty place in the Next World.

That is OUR Faith and Doctrine.

Check it out!

What seperates extreme Islam & extreme Christianity are simply shades of grey.

That's just utter bullshiite. Plain and simple.

There is a great gulf that lies between Islam and Christianity.

As much as there is between the East and the West.

Given the proper climate here in the U.S., you'd see our own, home grown lunatics attempting to enforce their will in ways you couldn't even imagine.

Well, as P. J. O'Rourke once said...

'This country was founded by religious nuts with guns.'

If there was ever the chance of a theocracy in this country, or anything resembling one, that time has long since passed.

And the Christians who formed this country were every bit as 'fundamentalist' as those of today.

Yet, they did NOT choose to form some sort of 'Church of the United States', as was done in Great Britain.

They valued their freedom of religion.

Just as fundamentalist Christians of today do.

Have you got a lot to learn, Sonny!  

I'm not suggesting ETH would be one of those.....though I'm certainly not suggesting he wouldn't be either.

And I'm not suggesting that you would be some neo-pagan Nazi-wannabe scum-sucking lickspittal asshat JBT some day murdering old men, women, and children for the State.

But, then, I'm not suggesting you wouldn't be, either.

Gee, I like this game!

Back to your "expectations" of ETH regarding any belief system outside his own? Don't have expectations...his brainwashing is complete....you are the enemy.....regardless of how many smileys are in his posts.

Take that!

Eric The(WesternCiv101)Hun

Hey, since I am part of the untrusted minortiy can I start getting government support like other minorities? I would love to get my hands on some of that government money!  

Quoted: Quoted: You obviously haven't been around here long enough to realize that the zealots....regardless of their "faith" (Christian, Islamic....) view non-believers as the enemy. Consider yourself lucky that the zealot's that inhabit this nation haven't yet taken flying lessons in commercial jets. I would imagine that a great many commercial airline pilots are Fundamentalist Christians. But, strange as it may sound to your ears, there is no reward in Christianity for suicide, nor for cold-blooded murder. On the contrary, any Christian committing such acts would find themselves in a very nasty place in the Next World. Which didn't slow down the lovely, kind, warm Christians in the condensed list below from murdering. They read the same book you do...and golly gee....guess what? They felt murder was perfectly acceptable in the name of Jesus. They didn't belong to my club Eric, they belong(ed) to yours. That is OUR Faith and Doctrine. Tell that to Eric Rudolph, James Charles Kopp, Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, Teutonic Knights, The Svobodniki of Canada (see "Freedomites"), Wesley Swift, William Potter Gale, Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus Christ Christian, Confederate Hammerskins, Jubile, LaPorte Church of Christ, Kingdom Identity Ministries, White Separatist Banner, The Order, Afrikaners (South Africa), Christian Separatist Church Society, et al. Like I said earlier, extremist Christians. What seperates extreme Islam & extreme Christianity are simply shades of grey. That's just utter bullshiite. Plain and simple. There is a great gulf that lies between Islam and Christianity. As much as there is between the East and the West. Please refer to the abreviated list above. More of a trickling creek rather than a great Gulf. Given the proper climate here in the U.S., you'd see our own, home grown lunatics attempting to enforce their will in ways you couldn't even imagine. Well, as P. J. O'Rourke once said... 'This country was founded by religious nuts with guns.' If there was ever the chance of a theocracy in this country, or anything resembling one, that time has long since passed. Praise the lord! And the Christians who formed this country were every bit as 'fundamentalist' as those of today. Which makes them no better in many ways. In todays world, many of their activities would be considered reprehensible. Great guys, great Constitution, great Nation. Great Christians? Ahhhh.....not so much. Yet, they did NOT choose to form some sort of 'Church of the United States', as was done in Great Britain. They valued their freedom of religion. Just as fundamentalist Christians of today do. Key phrase "They valued their freedom of religion. Just as fundamentalist Christians of today do." Have you got a lot to learn, Sonny!   Don't be in such a rush to exclude yourself from the list. I'm not suggesting ETH would be one of those.....though I'm certainly not suggesting he wouldn't be either. And I'm not suggesting that you would be some neo-pagan Nazi-wannabe scum-sucking lickspittal asshat JBT some day murdering old men, women, and children for the State. But, then, I'm not suggesting you wouldn't be, either. And based on the fact that you don't know me, you'd be completely correct in not knowing. Don't feel bad. Gee, I like this game! Gee whiz, me too! Back to your "expectations" of ETH regarding any belief system outside his own? Don't have expectations...his brainwashing is complete....you are the enemy.....regardless of how many smileys are in his posts. Take that! Ok, you asked for it......... Eric The(WesternCiv101)Hun

Good post Eric...I enjoyed that.

M (MoralityDoesn'tRequireMythology) 4

Quoted: Hey, since I am part of the untrusted minortiy can I start getting government support like other minorities? I would love to get my hands on some of that government money!  hr

+1   I AM OUTRAGED AT THIS PREJUDICE.  Perhaps a little scholarship would make up for all the discrimination.
he

Above