Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/28/2006 7:30:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 8:10:15 AM EDT
God's Plan is great!

The participants in it sometime leave a lot to be desired, however.

So, why are we suddenly waxing so philosophical, my dear fellow?

Maybe you should try contemplating your navel so as to arrive at the Answers to all of Life's Great Questions?

Such religious rituals as that have brought the Indian Subcontinent to the 'Nirvana on Earth' state that we witness at present.

Eric The(TwiceBlessed)Hun
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 8:39:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
God's Plan is great!

The participants in it sometime leave a lot to be desired, however.

So, why are we suddenly waxing so philosophical, my dear fellow?

Maybe you should try contemplating your navel so as to arrive at the Answers to all of Life's Great Questions?

Such religious rituals as that have brought the Indian Subcontinent to the 'Nirvana on Earth' state that we witness at present.

Eric The(TwiceBlessed)Hun



...and the congregation said, "Amen!"

I should know...I often leave a lot to be desired.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:32:49 AM EDT
I believe it was G.K. Chesterton who said that if divorce exists, marriage does not really exist.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:25:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
It was both of their second marriages. I listened to the preacher speak of that it was gods will, and the fact that the marriage of a man and a woman was brought forth by god himself. Seeing how it was both of them vowing to 'till death do us part' again, and the divorce rate in nearing 60% in this country; do you think god is ready to consider this plan a failure?


Remarriage is not part of new testment teaching unless the former spouses have died. It is not in the will of God have have marriage separated (regardless what people are doing these days). You cannot justify remarriage.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:32:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jungp:

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
It was both of their second marriages. I listened to the preacher speak of that it was gods will, and the fact that the marriage of a man and a woman was brought forth by god himself. Seeing how it was both of them vowing to 'till death do us part' again, and the divorce rate in nearing 60% in this country; do you think god is ready to consider this plan a failure?


Remarriage is not part of new testment teaching unless the former spouses have died. It is not in the will of God have have marriage separated (regardless what people are doing these days). You cannot justify remarriage.



That's pretty good. You know the will of God.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:41:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jungp:
You cannot justify remarriage.



You obviously never met my EX.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:49:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
It was both of their second marriages. I listened to the preacher speak of that it was gods will, and the fact that the marriage of a man and a woman was brought forth by god himself. Seeing how it was both of them vowing to 'till death do us part' again, and the divorce rate in nearing 60% in this country; do you think god is ready to consider this plan a failure?



God doesn't fail, people do.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:01:49 AM EDT
doesn't "contemplating on your navel" provide for a fuzzy outlook?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:02:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:38:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
God doesn't fail, people do.



Excellent point!

Ok now since he created people and he created the plan, the fact the nearly 60% of the people are failing his plan who takes the blame there? He can only pass the buck so many times.



Who takes the blame? We do, every time we are too proud to follow His plan correctly. Remember, moral agency is part of the plan. That agency means that you and I can accept or reject it.

God doesn't need to pass any buck.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:41:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 11:42:11 AM EDT by 1GUNRUNNER]
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:01:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 12:01:46 PM EDT by Shane333]

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Shane, what is the Mormon's take on divorce?



Woah! Simple question that requires a little more detailed answer.

Short answer, Mormon's are enouraged to work on making their marriages successful, because we regard the marriage covenant to be so supremely sacred. We believe marriage covenants and relationships continue after death.

However, here are some details:
The LDS Church strongly discourages divorce except in cases of abuse (emotional, physical, or sexual). Abuse is so demeaning to basic human dignity, one cannot fault any person who wishes to be seperated from such treatment. Infidelity is treated on a case by case basis.

The marriage covenant is considered so sacred that during a divorce a church member may be asked to surrender their temple recommend for a time. We consider this very serious as it denies entry into the temples we consider to be the most sacred places on earth, with the exception of the home. Having the temple marriage covenant annulled requires First Presidency approval.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:26:10 PM EDT
Just want to add a few family experiences. An aunt of mine married a jerk way back in high school. He turned out to be very emotionally and physically abuse, not only to her but to their children. She gave him one chance after another. Finally she went to her Bishop and told him about the situation. Upon finding out about the abuse, Bishop Collette said, "leave him." Short and simple.

She divorced him and he put a pistol in his mouth....

Her next husband turned out to be a complete flake and failure as a provider. Simply a bum who sat around the house reading books and painting all day. My aunt couldn't bring herself to go through with divorce again. We had a family fast (such as "fasting and prayer") on her behalf asking the Lord to find a solution for her since she was too emotionally spent to go through divorce again. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, nephews, etc. participated. The day of the fast this loser died of a heart attack in the church building foyer, right at the end of our meetings. (I learned a powerful lesson about being careful what you ask from the Lord)

I've known of family and friends where the wife cheated for the specific purpose of getting out of the marriage, or she simply abandons her husband and leaves. In those cases the husbands didn't have much choice, since their spouse was going to leave them whether they wanted divorce or not. In those cases the faithful spouse doesn't face any ecclesiastical punishment, though the guilty parties may well be excommunicated.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:40:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
God doesn't fail, people do.



Excellent point!

Ok now since he created people and he created the plan, the fact the nearly 60% of the people are failing his plan who takes the blame there? He can only pass the buck so many times.



Abner Doubleday created baseball. Yet most hitters do well to bat .300 (i.e, 70% failure rate). So Doubleday is to blame?

I think not.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:57:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:57:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Abner Doubleday created baseball. Yet most hitters do well to bat .300 (i.e, 70% failure rate). So Doubleday is to blame?

I think not.



When did the last player swear before Abner Doubleday to bat a 1000?



Did a player ever come to the plate with any intention other than a successful at-bat?
(I think we're both stretching the analogy)
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:39:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:45:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Well I would venture that most who get married intend for it to be successful, the fact is that they come before their god and swear the 'til death do us part' part. Perhaps it should be changed to 'til you sleep with my brother/sister' or something simular.

Point is the success rate of marriage has been on a downward slide since it was started and seeing how this is all a part of his plan; I am wondering if he has an exit strategy?



WIFE CAN'T SHAKE THE MEMORY OF HUSBAND AND BROTHER IN BED

DEAR ABBY: After 23 years of what I thought was a happy marriage, I came home and caught my husband, "Wes," in bed having sex with my brother. It was a shock, to say the least. That evening, they had gone to a bar and drank heavily. Someone gave them a pill of unknown origin. Wes says he doesn't remember anything until I walked in and started slapping some sense into him.

We have stayed together. We haven't made love, however. I can't seem to get the picture out of my head. I feel like my life has been shattered. I love Wes and want us to have a productive life. How can I forget? -- SHATTERED IN SOUTH CAROLINA

DEAR SHATTERED: One thing is certain, you won't be able to "forget" until you get the whole truth about what happened that night. I find it highly questionable that both your husband and your brother would accept a "magic pill" from a stranger that suddenly rendered two presumably straight men bisexual. The question you should be asking isn't how you can forget, but how long their affair has been going on. You need honest answers, and you also need to understand that you are not alone with this problem.

You and your husband are overdue for marriage counseling, and for your own sanity, please contact the Straight Spouse Network. The members of this unique organization are current or former heterosexual spouses/partners of gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender mates and mixed-orientation couples. They offer, from the vantage point of experience, personal, confidential support and resource information that can help you. The Web site is www.straightspouse.org. Please don't wait to contact them.

http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/?uc_full_date=20060306#ContinueFeature




Remember that as a part of God's plan, we are here to be tested. No exit strategy is needed. If I fail the test because I'm rebelling against God, I have nobody to blame but myself.

As far as the example you cited where the wife came home to find her husband and brother in bed together...I feel sick just reading about it.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:59:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:32:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
So the fact that we are failing the test(at higher rate every year); what does that tell us?



That as a society, we lack the moral conviction to adhere to the plan. That we, as a society, have booted God out of the schools and every public venue, and as a result are farther from him. That we are unwilling to submit to his plan.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:41:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:45:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:54:41 AM EDT
<sigh>

Eric The(Irascible)Hun
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:07:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
That as a society, we lack the moral conviction to adhere to the plan. That we, as a society, have booted God out of the schools and every public venue, and as a result are farther from him. That we are unwilling to submit to his plan.



All of which is part of his 'Master Plan'



I have somewhat of an optimistic view of things. I believe that there must be opposition in all things.

Otherwise, how would we appreciate the greatness of good health if we'd never experienced sickness.

Likewise, there is opposition in society. Just as there are families crumbling from the ever present moral decay of society, there are families that stand as immoveable pillars of strength despite the onslaught of selfish temptations.

However, I concede that the desintigration of the family is a very dangerous thing. The family is the basic unit of society. As the family goes, so goes the society.

As populations degenerate morally, communities and even nations ripen for destruction. This is why Christians fight so strongly to preserve the family where possible. This is why we fight abortion, why we encourage mothers to stay home to raise and nurture children, why fornication/adultery is so dangerous, etc. These are things that damage the basic unit society. They fracture the foundation of our nation.

I can't say it better than this:
www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:17:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:24:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 9:26:13 AM EDT by EricTheHun]

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
<sigh>

Eric The(Irascible)Hun


That's all you got to say Mr. Divorce Atty?


Sorry, but that's 'Mr. Divorced Attorney', to you, Sir!



Eric The(TwiceBlessed)Hun
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 4:30:31 AM EDT
Divorce is big business. Lawyers and govt employee's abound in it. It is part of our welfare system. We would put alot of folks out of work if we did not support divorce!

Here's a couple of my ideas that may be a bit controversial.

1. End no fault divorces.

2. Give the children conceived in a marriage to the Husband in a divorce unless the wife makes more money. Or can prove abuse.

3. No allthemoney either way.

4. divorce mediators instead of lawyers. Flat fee from both sides required.

5. No welfare help for those that can't prove abuse.(for those that divorce, looking for govt hand outs)

6. a six month waiting period for a marraige license.

7. some kind of premarraige class required given by the State or Church or Civic Club.

8. no more office of recovery services. The divorced would pay for there own lawyers if terms of mediation failed.

Yea it's a pipe dream and would be seen as, against women, but I bet divorce would drop significantly.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:16:03 AM EDT
Some people self-righteously make divorce the Second Unforgivable Sin.

Yeshua said there is only one sin that won't be forgiven, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (a debate for another thread).

Divorce, being at odds with God's will, is a sin, along with so many other acts we commit.

If I seek His forgiveness through the shed blood of Yeshua, am I forgiven?

I say yes.

Am I "sort of" forgiven? No, it's complete and total.

There are verses where God says He will cast our sins into the sea of forgetfulness. He will remember them no more.

How dare people hold something against someone when God Himself has forgiven them for it.

Forgiveness means being able to start over with a clean slate, no footnotes.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:51:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 8:56:35 AM EDT by Shane333]

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
Some people self-righteously make divorce the Second Unforgivable Sin.

Yeshua said there is only one sin that won't be forgiven, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (a debate for another thread).

Divorce, being at odds with God's will, is a sin, along with so many other acts we commit.

If I seek His forgiveness through the shed blood of Yeshua, am I forgiven?

I say yes.

Am I "sort of" forgiven? No, it's complete and total.

There are verses where God says He will cast our sins into the sea of forgetfulness. He will remember them no more.

How dare people hold something against someone when God Himself has forgiven them for it.

Forgiveness means being able to start over with a clean slate, no footnotes.



I disagree that forgiveness always means a clean slate (at least in this life). If that were true, why would we need a prison system? Sometimes there is a social debt to pay in spite of forgiveness.

You're correct that a person can absolutely be forgiven of divorce. However, because divorce invariable effects more than one person, accountability may still be in effect.

Can you look at the effects of divorce and suggest otherwise? How many children's lives are disfunctional because of divorce? How many spouses' lives are effected?

Hence, the severity of divorce.


Edited to add: There is nothing self righteous in noting the shattered lives of my cousins because their parents failed them. There's the cousin who commited adultry and justified it because her mother did the same. There's the cousin suffering from anorexia and other self esteem issues. Etc.

There's my best friend who has had to fight an uphill battle in dating because he has the stigma of being divorced...all because his ex had commitment issues and for no fault of his own.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 9:02:41 AM EDT
Hey guys, I have a question that's related, but I don't want to hijack the thread. Lemme know if this is wrong to post here.
So, the papers were filed this week on my divorce. I have incredible amounts of guilt, because I'm Catholic and I was raised that divorce is not an option, no matter what. But he's a cheater, liar, thief, irresponsible, and a deadbeat dad (even when we were married). Fired six times in 12 years. My faith and stubborness kept me holding the family together. I wasn't aware of any of those traits while we dated. My first clue was his quitting his job on our honeymoon, but by then we were married. So am I eternally damned now? Doomed to a life alone now, or what? I am willing to suffer eternally in hell for the divorce, because that's where I've been the last 12 years. I really am interested in seeing what you all have to say from a religion standpoint. Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 9:19:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By txwxgirl:
Hey guys, I have a question that's related, but I don't want to hijack the thread. Lemme know if this is wrong to post here.
So, the papers were filed this week on my divorce. I have incredible amounts of guilt, because I'm Catholic and I was raised that divorce is not an option, no matter what. But he's a cheater, liar, thief, irresponsible, and a deadbeat dad (even when we were married). Fired six times in 12 years. My faith and stubborness kept me holding the family together. I wasn't aware of any of those traits while we dated. My first clue was his quitting his job on our honeymoon, but by then we were married. So am I eternally damned now? Doomed to a life alone now, or what? I am willing to suffer eternally in hell for the divorce, because that's where I've been the last 12 years. I really am interested in seeing what you all have to say from a religion standpoint. Thanks.



No you are not damned nor are you doomed to a life alone.

Anyone who tells you that should be flogged.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 9:32:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 9:33:59 AM EDT by Shane333]

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:

Originally Posted By txwxgirl:
Hey guys, I have a question that's related, but I don't want to hijack the thread. Lemme know if this is wrong to post here.
So, the papers were filed this week on my divorce. I have incredible amounts of guilt, because I'm Catholic and I was raised that divorce is not an option, no matter what. But he's a cheater, liar, thief, irresponsible, and a deadbeat dad (even when we were married). Fired six times in 12 years. My faith and stubborness kept me holding the family together. I wasn't aware of any of those traits while we dated. My first clue was his quitting his job on our honeymoon, but by then we were married. So am I eternally damned now? Doomed to a life alone now, or what? I am willing to suffer eternally in hell for the divorce, because that's where I've been the last 12 years. I really am interested in seeing what you all have to say from a religion standpoint. Thanks.



No you are not damned nor are you doomed to a life alone.

Anyone who tells you that should be flogged.



Agreed that nobody should tell you that you're eternally damned or doomed to a life alone. I personally think you chose right. It's a shame your husband failed you.

I personally wish you the best in your efforts to find a man worthy of being your husband.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 12:08:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

I disagree that forgiveness always means a clean slate (at least in this life). If that were true, why would we need a prison system? Sometimes there is a social debt to pay in spite of forgiveness.



By "clean slate" I meant in God's eyes.


You're correct that a person can absolutely be forgiven of divorce. However, because divorce invariable effects more than one person, accountability may still be in effect.

Can you look at the effects of divorce and suggest otherwise? How many children's lives are disfunctional because of divorce? How many spouses' lives are effected?



If you thought my post meant the parties are absolved of responsibility and accountability, I was misunderstood. I was speaking strictly in spiritual terms.


Hence, the severity of divorce.


Agreed. It is too easy and too common.



Edited to add: There is nothing self righteous in noting the shattered lives of my cousins because their parents failed them. There's the cousin who commited adultry and justified it because her mother did the same. There's the cousin suffering from anorexia and other self esteem issues. Etc.


Again, I think I was misunderstood if these words were posted in response to what I said. I'm big on accountability and personal responsibility.

By self-righteous I was referring to those who make divorced people 3rd class citizens in the kingdom of heaven while turning a blind eye to their own sin.


There's my best friend who has had to fight an uphill battle in dating because he has the stigma of being divorced...all because his ex had commitment issues and for no fault of his own.


That's more of what I'm talking about.

I have firsthand experience. My parents divorced when I was 12 and later I went through one of my own. I don't blame anybody else for my situation. However, I sought and received forgiveness, and after I experienced healing inside I ended up marrying Mrs. Brohawk. This month we will celebrate 18 years of genuine wedded bliss, built on the Firm Foundation.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 12:16:16 PM EDT
Sorry Brohawk for the misunderstanding.

Looks like I jumped to conclusions. My bad.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 3:36:57 PM EDT
I can not get excited about a wedding for the 2nd + time. I take commitments seriously. You got to make the first one serious or the rest are a joke.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:28:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By txwxgirl:
Hey guys, I have a question that's related, but I don't want to hijack the thread. Lemme know if this is wrong to post here.
So, the papers were filed this week on my divorce. I have incredible amounts of guilt, because I'm Catholic and I was raised that divorce is not an option, no matter what. But he's a cheater, liar, thief, irresponsible, and a deadbeat dad (even when we were married). Fired six times in 12 years. My faith and stubborness kept me holding the family together. I wasn't aware of any of those traits while we dated. My first clue was his quitting his job on our honeymoon, but by then we were married. So am I eternally damned now? Doomed to a life alone now, or what? I am willing to suffer eternally in hell for the divorce, because that's where I've been the last 12 years. I really am interested in seeing what you all have to say from a religion standpoint. Thanks.



Grounds for annulment, clearly. Take the steps.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 3:14:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:12:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txwxgirl:
Hey guys, I have a question that's related, but I don't want to hijack the thread. Lemme know if this is wrong to post here.
So, the papers were filed this week on my divorce. I have incredible amounts of guilt, because I'm Catholic and I was raised that divorce is not an option, no matter what. But he's a cheater, liar, thief, irresponsible, and a deadbeat dad (even when we were married). Fired six times in 12 years. My faith and stubborness kept me holding the family together. I wasn't aware of any of those traits while we dated. My first clue was his quitting his job on our honeymoon, but by then we were married. So am I eternally damned now? Doomed to a life alone now, or what? I am willing to suffer eternally in hell for the divorce, because that's where I've been the last 12 years. I really am interested in seeing what you all have to say from a religion standpoint. Thanks.


The only question that I would ask is - Did your husband cheat on you?

Adultery is clearly grounds for divorce in the Teachings of Jesus.

Eric The(TwiceBlessed)Hun
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:55:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
I disagree that forgiveness always means a clean slate (at least in this life). If that were true, why would we need a prison system? Sometimes there is a social debt to pay in spite of forgiveness.



Does the bible speak about us incarcerating each other? What does it say about crime and punishment?



The bible speaks of rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceaser's. That includes jurisdiction for enforcing the laws of the land.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:06:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1cheapshot:
Divorce is big business. Lawyers and govt employee's abound in it. It is part of our welfare system. We would put alot of folks out of work if we did not support divorce!

Here's a couple of my ideas that may be a bit controversial.

1. End no fault divorces.

2. Give the children conceived in a marriage to the Husband in a divorce unless the wife makes more money. Or can prove abuse.

3. No allthemoney either way.

4. divorce mediators instead of lawyers. Flat fee from both sides required.

5. No welfare help for those that can't prove abuse.(for those that divorce, looking for govt hand outs)

6. a six month waiting period for a marraige license.

7. some kind of premarraige class required given by the State or Church or Civic Club.

8. no more office of recovery services. The divorced would pay for there own lawyers if terms of mediation failed.

Yea it's a pipe dream and would be seen as, against women, but I bet divorce would drop significantly.



I have a simple, 100% successful plan for preventing divorces. No attorneys, mediators or bureaucrats involved, no classes, licences or fees required.

Don't get married.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 8:17:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By 1cheapshot:
Divorce is big business. Lawyers and govt employee's abound in it. It is part of our welfare system. We would put alot of folks out of work if we did not support divorce!

Here's a couple of my ideas that may be a bit controversial.

1. End no fault divorces.

2. Give the children conceived in a marriage to the Husband in a divorce unless the wife makes more money. Or can prove abuse.

3. No allthemoney either way.

4. divorce mediators instead of lawyers. Flat fee from both sides required.

5. No welfare help for those that can't prove abuse.(for those that divorce, looking for govt hand outs)

6. a six month waiting period for a marraige license.

7. some kind of premarraige class required given by the State or Church or Civic Club.

8. no more office of recovery services. The divorced would pay for there own lawyers if terms of mediation failed.

Yea it's a pipe dream and would be seen as, against women, but I bet divorce would drop significantly.



I have a simple, 100% successful plan for preventing divorces. No attorneys, mediators or bureaucrats involved, no classes, licences or fees required.

Don't get married.



Actually, 1cheapshot may have some good ideas there. I think it would be terrific to get rid of no fault divorce, minimize the attorney involvement, etc.
Top Top