Quoted: Quoted: Did Moses exist? We have much more clear and explicit historical records that Jesus existed than that Moses ever existed. Perhaps you believe you do but in reality you have have nothing. But who doubts that Moses existed? Certainly not Christians. Christians do not deny that Moses ever exsisted so to be fair and balanced Jews should not deny Jesus ever exsisted? Eric The(FairAndBalanced)Hun

__

This again is an important part of the discussion in that Judaism places less emphasis upon the literal reading of texts than does Christianity.  A read of the Torah, through Jewish eyes is a different experience for Jews.  Given the exemplar of the question of existence of Moses, in Jewish understanding of the text, it's less important that the person of Moses existed than the idea of Moses.  

The Jewish experience that G-d interacted not through a divine person, but through a human intermediary is the lesson imparted to Jews.  So, too, have Jews always experienced a relationship to G-d; as one-to-one, without any need for the Christian experience of a divine intercessor.  

Jewish texts are not read literally as they are through Christian eyes.  Aside from literary mistranslations from the Greek Septuagint, the Christian bible is not the Jewish bible.

The idyllic representation of Jewish texts are read by Jews as ideas and ideals of the relationship and obligations between humankind and G-d, G-d and humankind, and between all of humankind to one another.

The relationship and understanding of these texts as read by Christianity takes an extreme form of these ideas and ideals quite ostensibly to the realm of idolatry from a Jewish perspective.



Ed

Quoted: It really is a good discussion.  I've learned a lot already.   I understand the "Hellenistic influence" perspective and I agree that there was a Greek influence.  I suppose it is a matter of degree on that one.  However, I am surprised that the traditional Jewish position is that Jesus never existed.  I can understand the arguement that Jesus was a great prophet and not the Messiah, etc., but there is ample historical evidence that he did exist.  At least enough to debunk the "greek fairy tale" position.   I know that it is impossible to prove a negative but there must be more to the traditional Jewish position that just denial.  Is there a place where I can read more about this tenet?  I haven't hit the links you offered above.  Would this information be in one of them? I'm not trying to spark an uproar, I really would like to know.  I really appreciate the mature, thoughtful, and polite nature of this thread.  We are covering some sensitive areas and I really hope we can continue like this without it falling apart. Thanks.

__

Hi, Wolf_Warrior.

Re:

"I can understand the arguement that Jesus was a great prophet and not the Messiah, etc., but there is ample historical evidence that he did exist.  At least enough to debunk the "greek fairy tale" position. "

___

There is actually little that may be understood from the person of Jesus from Christian texts that he was any other than a Jew of his time, whose teachings seemed quite in-line with the Pharisees of his time.  His standing as a great prophet? Even by measures of the period as understood by Jews, there was nothing exemplary of his teachings as understood by even the novel interpretations of todays Christian bible from the Jewish Torah.  

Re:

"I'm not trying to spark an uproar, I really would like to know. I really appreciate the mature, thoughtful, and polite nature of this thread. We are covering some sensitive areas and I really hope we can continue like this without it falling apart."

You're doing fine...I believe we all are trying to be sensitive and simply learn and understand.

B'Shalom, Wolf_Warrior.

Ed

Quoted: Did Moses exist? We have much more clear and explicit historical records that Jesus existed than that Moses ever existed. But who doubts that Moses existed? Certainly not Christians. Eric The(FairAndBalanced)Hun

I dont see religious tolerance as a Tit for Tat kind of thing.  I dont have to believe in Jesus because you believe in Moses. And again, It is not a two way street. You believe in Moses as a christian because it would nullify your faith if you didnt. Not believing in Jesus doesnt do anything for my faith.

Quoted: Quoted: Did Moses exist? We have much more clear and explicit historical records that Jesus existed than that Moses ever existed. But who doubts that Moses existed? Certainly not Christians. Eric The(FairAndBalanced)Hun I dont see religious tolerance as a Tit for Tat kind of thing.  I dont have to believe in Jesus because you believe in Moses. And again, It is not a two way street. You believe in Moses as a christian because it would nullify your faith if you didnt. Not believing in Jesus doesnt do anything for my faith.

__

Agreed.  As I posted earlier, and I believe neshomamench would concur, Judaism understands the Hebrew Bible in terms of ideas and ideals for humankind, rather than idollic representations.

Ed

Quoted:

Quoted: Did Moses exist? We have much more clear and explicit historical records that Jesus existed than that Moses ever existed.

Perhaps you believe you do but in reality you have have nothing.

Have nothing?

Sorry, but as others of your faith have said, no one really doubts in the historical Jesus.

You can go 'google' the historical record and find very clear and explicit non-Christian references to the historical Jesus.

Something you cannot do for Moses.

Nor can you find any secular historical evidence for the 430 years, more or less, that the Israelites sojourned in Egypt.

Amazing, eh?

But don't worry - Christians believe that the Israelites were there for that length of time, and left under the circumstances set forth in Exodus, even if the Egyptians, who were meticulous record-keepers of the most mundane, never mentioned them or the Exodus event....ever.

That's called 'Faith.'

Originally posted by Eric The Hun: But who doubts that Moses existed? Certainly not Christians.

Christians do not deny that Moses ever exsisted so to be fair and balanced Jews should not deny Jesus ever exsisted?

No one's simply asking you to be fair, OldGuy, in the least.

What would the point of that be?

You doubted the historical Jesus, and I merely responded with a reminder that IF we are tallying up secular historical references, there are plenty for Jesus and none for Moses.

And yet, I would be the very last to say 'Moses is a Jewish fairy-tale', as you said of Jesus.

It's called Faith.

(Oh, and good and decent manners, as well.)

Learn it, live it, love it.



Eric The(FairAndBalanced)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: A lot of us don't deny that he existed though. I personally believe that Jesus existed and was a good prophet, just not the Son of G-d/Allah. The Koran makes many mentions of Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

And many mentions of Abraham and Ismail, and others from the Old Testament.

So what?

I often wonder why the New Testament was not attached to the Koran.

Yes, it does not surprise me in the least that you wonder such incredible things.

Jesus receives a favorable mention in it but no mention is made of him in our writings.

On the contrary, Jesus appears throughout the Old Testament...but not by Name....but that is a Christian and Messianic Jewish belief.

And if by 'our writings' you mean Hebrew Scriptures, then what Hebrew Scripture or Prophet do you accept after...Malachi?

And Malachi wrote around the year 400 BC.

He wrote of Jesus, indeed, but he didn't mention Him by name.

Mohammad 'wrote' his Koran long afterwards, and it would have been very odd, I suppose, if he didn't mention a character who he called 'Isa' and tried to identify as Jesus.

Or that he blessed the Tawrat and the Injil (the Law and the Gospel) as being from God.

Does that make you feel warm all over? It doesn't me.

Eric The(Unmoved)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Did Moses exist? We have much more clear and explicit historical records that Jesus existed than that Moses ever existed. Perhaps you believe you do but in reality you have have nothing. Have nothing? Sorry, but as others of your faith have said, no one really doubts in the historical Jesus. You can go 'google' the historical record and find very clear and explicit non-Christian references to the historical Jesus. Something you cannot do for Moses. Nor can you find any secular historical evidence for the 430 years, more or less, that the Israelites sojourned in Egypt. Amazing, eh? But don't worry - Christians believe that the Israelites were there for that length of time, and left under the circumstances set forth in Exodus, even if the Egyptians, who were meticulous record-keepers of the most mundane, never mentioned them or the Exodus event....ever. That's called 'Faith.' Originally posted by Eric The Hun: But who doubts that Moses existed? Certainly not Christians. Christians do not deny that Moses ever exsisted so to be fair and balanced Jews should not deny Jesus ever exsisted? No one's simply asking you to be fair, OldGuy, in the least. What would the point of that be? You doubted the historical Jesus, and I merely responded with a reminder that IF we are tallying up secular historical references, there are plenty for Jesus and none for Moses. And yet, I would be the very last to say 'Moses is a Jewish fairy-tale', as you said of Jesus. It's called Faith. (Oh, and good and decent manners, as well.) Learn it, live it, love it. Eric The(FairAndBalanced)Hun

A lot of people deny Jesus ever existed. Many of the "proofs" that have been presented...often by the church have been been forgeries, such as the works of Josephus. There simply exists no evidence for his existance. You are right, it is faith and that is fine. When it comes to religion, that is indeed what we all have to have. Again, I and most Traditional Jews dont believe in Jesus because it is fasionable, We look at the same fact sheet as you and have for thousands of years. We draw a different conclusion.

however, to say that no evidence exists for the exodus is not true. Some people from both sides of the table (Religious and secular) believe such evidence exists, and some dont. Do some research on the Ipuwer Papyrus.

Quoted:

I dont see religious tolerance as a Tit for Tat kind of thing.

'Religious tolerance'???

If you are choosing your words very carefully, then I would suggest that you should see religious tolerance as a 'tit for tat' thing.

If you wish to have others respect your faith, then you should equally show respect for the faith of others.

But I am almost certain that you did not mean 'tolerance', at all.

Well, at least I hope you didn't.

I dont have to believe in Jesus because you believe in Moses. And again, It is not a two way street.

My, my, neshomamench, I am not asking you to believe in Jesus as a matter of Faith!

But as a demonstration that you can equally believe in the historicity of Jesus, as others believe in the historicity of Moses.

If you don't believe that He ever existed, just say so.

You believe in Moses as a Christian because it would nullify your faith if you didnt.

Nonsense!

Christianity would stand on its own IF the entirety of the Old Testament could be shown to be a fraud.

The Person of Jesus, His Teachings, and His qualities were of such, that He alone could bring all men to God.

Not believing in Jesus doesnt do anything for my faith.

Ain't that the truth!



Well spoken!

Eric The(Wondrous)Hun

"You can go 'google' the historical record and find very clear and explicit non-Christian references to the historical Jesus.

Something you cannot do for Moses.

Nor can you find any secular historical evidence for the 430 years, more or less, that the Israelites sojourned in Egypt.

Amazing, eh?"

__

Not amazing, since 'google'  had not been invented at that time.  

Quoted:

A lot of people deny Jesus ever existed.

Define 'a lot.'

A third of the World believes that He not only existed, but that He was Who He said He was.

Another third of the World believes that He was a 'great prophet' and that He existed.

Now, who says He didn't?

Many of the "proofs" that have been presented...often by the church have been been forgeries, such as the works of Josephus.

I was referring to secular histories, not 'religious' ones.

So, how much of Josephus' works do you think are Christian forgeries?

Just the parts that mention Jesus and James?

How clever!

There simply exists no evidence for his existance.

Balderdash!

To a fervant, partisan, and/or irrational person, it is quite possible to deny the historic facts.

But to others.....

You are right, it is faith and that is fine.

I am always right on such matters.

Always.

When it comes to religion, that is indeed what we all have to have. Again, I and most Traditional Jews dont believe in Jesus because it is fasionable, We look at the same fact sheet as you and have for thousands of years. We draw a different conclusion.

\
Indeed.

however, to say that no evidence exists for the exodus is not true. Some people from both sides of the table (Religious and secular) believe such evidence exists, and some dont. Do some research on the Ipuwer Papyrus.

I have already, my dear friend.

Most scholars deny that the writing is anything other than a reference to the Hyksos Invasion a great deal earlier than the reign of Ramses II, which is the most acceptable and reliable dating of the Exodus.

And the so-called 'Israel stele', and other such historic artifacts.....

(Surely you don't think the 'Hyksos' were really 'Israelites', do you? I know some who do think so.)

But, quite frankly, the main reason that I believe in Moses...and Abraham...and the others from the Old Testament, is simply this:

Jesus quotes, or makes allusions, to every Book and principal personage in the Old Testament.

Thus, the Old Testament bears His 'stamp of approval', so to speak.

And that is sufficient for me.

Again, it's called Faith.

Eric The(Faithful)Hun

Quoted: [ Are you really equating the evidence for the Holocaust and the evidence for Jesus? You know, a lot of people about 80% of the planet do not believe in Jesus. Some of us have some good reasons to arrive at this point of view.

Where did you come up with this figure? (80 percent of the planet)

Its hard to believe that  Jews even deny that Jesus existed, that is just incredible.
there is plenty of historical data to prove that , if you want to say all of it is forgeries and lies go ahead.
like i said before you are no better than the pres of iran and his denying the holocaust never existed .
 All because of your hate.

Quoted: Quoted: Are you really equating the evidence for the Holocaust and the evidence for Jesus? You know, a lot of people about 80% of the planet do not believe in Jesus. Some of us have some good reasons to arrive at this point of view. Where did you come up with this figure? (80 percent of the planet)

I quite overlooked this statement.

neshomamench, where do  you come up with the figure of 80%????

Hmmm?

And are you saying that 80% of the planet don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, or that 80% of the planet doesn't believe that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed?

Be clear and specific....I will be, later.



Eric The(MightyThinPieThere,Boys)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: [ Are you really equating the evidence for the Holocaust and the evidence for Jesus? You know, a lot of people about 80% of the planet do not believe in Jesus. Some of us have some good reasons to arrive at this point of view. Where did you come up with this figure? (80 percent of the planet) Its hard to believe that  Jews even deny that Jesus existed, that is just incredible. there is plenty of historical data to prove that , if you want to say all of it is forgeries and lies go ahead. like i said before you are no better than the pres of iran and his denying the holocaust never existed .  All because of your hate.

___

Re:

"80%"

__

I don't know; it doesn't matter.

___

Re:

"Its hard to believe that  Jews even deny that Jesus existed, that is just incredible.
there is plenty of historical data to prove that , if you want to say all of it is forgeries and lies go ahead."

__

It's only hard to see this through Christian eyes; when one bases an idea upon what is seen as an odolic view of G-d...then you are crawling on glass.

Either personally understood by Christianity or not, this is where the difficulty for Christians to exist when attempting to discredit Jews.  

The person of Jesus is the ultimate authority for Christians, though even by Christian testaments of the life of the person of Jesus can be related as non-other than a Torah-observant Jew of the early first century.  From previous posts, and understanding of the of these disconnects, there’s little for Christians then to hold upon, then, as unique to Christianity…the only, and unfortunately part of this is that it comes down to faith.

Faith in the absurd, despite non-rationality…yes, that would be faith, from a Jewish perspective.

There has been so much of the Jewish origins of Christianity that was so adulterated by the politics of early Christianity without regard to the ethical teachings of Judaism, and with so much poetical allusions and misunderstanding of First and Second Temple blood-sacrifices that I don’t believe Christianity could survive without these misconceptions...either to wallow in this crap for some apparent affiliation for this blood, or to inflict blood-shed upon Jews...for millenia.

___

Re:

" All because of your hate."

__

I would posit that Jews have historically been the greater victim of  "hate" than Christians could imagine...and at the hands of Christians, too.  

This is particularly unseemly as from the Christian texts there are only two apparent ideas from the person of Jesus that would be unique to Judaism, yet apparently not even espoused by the followers of Christianity.

One would be that “turn the other cheek” idea.
Ed

Quoted: [On the contrary, Jesus appears throughout the Old Testament...but not by Name....but that is a Christian and Messianic Jewish belief. Eric The(Unmoved)Hun

Like I said, you have nothing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you really equating the evidence for the Holocaust and the evidence for Jesus? You know, a lot of people about 80% of the planet do not believe in Jesus. Some of us have some good reasons to arrive at this point of view. Where did you come up with this figure? (80 percent of the planet) I quite overlooked this statement. neshomamench, where do  you come up with the figure of 80%???? Hmmm? And are you saying that 80% of the planet don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, or that 80% of the planet doesn't believe that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed? Be clear and specific....I will be, later. www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif Eric The(MightyThinPieThere,Boys)Hun

___

You need to find better pie.

Quoted: Quoted: [On the contrary, Jesus appears throughout the Old Testament...but not by Name....but that is a Christian and Messianic Jewish belief. Eric The(Unmoved)Hun Like I said, you have nothing.

On the contrary, I have every single thing that you have...plus the Messiah!

Abraham as my Father?

But, of course!

The Law and the Prophets?

Got 'em right here.

I am quite the 'Completed' Jew.

Eric The(Fulfilled)Hun

Quoted:

You need to find better pie.

If you had a larger slice, you wouldn't complain about the pie.



Eric The(Gustatory)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [On the contrary, Jesus appears throughout the Old Testament...but not by Name....but that is a Christian and Messianic Jewish belief. Eric The(Unmoved)Hun Like I said, you have nothing. On the contrary, I have every single thing that you have...plus the Messiah! Eric The(Fulfilled)Hun

I was referring to the fact you have no proof that the nazarene existed, since he is not mentioned by name in the "Old Testament."

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [On the contrary, Jesus appears throughout the Old Testament...but not by Name....but that is a Christian and Messianic Jewish belief. Eric The(Unmoved)Hun Like I said, you have nothing. On the contrary, I have every single thing that you have...plus the Messiah! Eric The(Fulfilled)Hun I was referring to the fact you have no proof that the nazarene existed, since he is not mentioned by name in the "Old Testament."

I wasn't.

I was referring to having everything that you do, etc., etc., etc.

Now, do your own rabbis not speak of Jesus?

Ever? Throughout your long history?

Let's see what you know of your own Faith.

(So, it's 'Nazarene' is it now? )

Eric The(VeryInterested)Hun

Keeping on-track with the original thread:

"Question for the arfcom Jews that concerns Jesus"

The questions have been answered by Jewish arfcom posters.

Further discussion is welcome and invited...though attacks were not what we expected...okay, well, we always expect that crap...."      

Either turn the other cheek or get over it!


Finalizing, for myself:


This again is an important part of the discussion in that Judaism places less emphasis upon the literal reading of texts than does Christianity. A read of the Torah, through Jewish eyes is a different experience for Jews. Given the exemplar of the question of existence of Moses, in Jewish understanding of the text, it's less important that the person of Moses existed than the idea of Moses.

The Jewish experience that G-d interacted not through a divine person, but through a human intermediary is the lesson imparted to Jews. So, too, have Jews always experienced a relationship to G-d; as one-to-one, without any need for the Christian experience of a divine intercessor.

Jewish texts are not read literally as they are through Christian eyes. Aside from literary mistranslations from the Greek Septuagint, the Christian bible is not the Jewish bible.

The idyllic representation of Jewish texts are read by Jews as ideas and ideals of the relationship and obligations between humankind and G-d, G-d and humankind, and between all of humankind to one another.

The relationship and understanding of these texts as read by Christianity takes an extreme form of these ideas and ideals quite ostensibly to the realm of idolatry from a Jewish perspective.



Ed

orthodox jews don't care enough to have an opinion.  A jew was killed by non-jews.  Happened tens if not hundreds of millions of times throughout history.  Back story, deeper meaning, who did it, who caused it.  Who cares?  Religions that attempt to justify themselves on the basis of 'jiving' with other religions are kinda silly. Seems like a search for jusitifcation.

Quoted: orthodox jews don't care enough to have an opinion.  A jew was killed by non-jews.  Happened tens if not hundreds of millions of times throughout history.  Back story, deeper meaning, who did it, who caused it.  Who cares?  Religions that attempt to justify themselves on the basis of 'jiving' with other religions are kinda silly. Seems like a search for jusitifcation.

_

"orthodox jews don't care enough to have an opinion."

Nice opinion.....  

Quoted: Quoted: You need to find better pie. If you had a larger slice, you wouldn't complain about the pie. Eric The(Gustatory)Hun

Those numbers would not make for a very fair fight that is for sure.

I am going to get ready for Shabbat, while I am gone maybe you and the rest of the world can increase your numbers.

Shabbat Shalom to all.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You need to find better pie. If you had a larger slice, you wouldn't complain about the pie. Eric The(Gustatory)Hun Those numbers would not make for a very fair fight that is for sure. I am going to get ready for Shabbat, while I am gone maybe you and the rest of the world can increase your numbers. Shabbat Shalom to all.

Hi OldGuy...I'm out of here too.  B'Shalom to you and yours...and everyone!

Ed

you yidden sure take your time getting ready for shabbos.  Heck, I'm still in class!  I get home with about an hour to vacuum, sweep, mop, dust, cook, take a deep breath and then its too damn late to drive to shul, so I have to walk.  GRRRRRRR.

Have a good shabbos, fellow christ-killers!

Quoted: If you bother to read them, they almost all without exception have the same caviat that you ignore written accounts and only focus on phsyscal evidence.  Kind of hard from 2,000 years ago.  Most of us under those same guidelines couldn't prove our great grandfathers lived.   So if you ignore the religous only one is left with only civil writtings of that time period and the dominate government of the time was the Romans.  There ae numerous mentions of Jesus the man in the Roman historical accounts of the early Ceasars from Tiberias, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero periods.  The later of course mainly indirect references to those who knew Jesus personaly.

I've read (and rejected) the views of all the major writers who hold the mythicist view.

None of them suggest ignoring written accounts and will only accept physical evidence.
All of them think the accounts are either Christian forgeries (and even non-mythicists admit many of them are at least partial forgeries)  or come from writers who wrote of other mythical figures actually existing.    

You say there are many accounts, which is wrong.  You can some up all the non-Biblical accounts of Jesus from the first century on a few lines.

Which isn't surprising, Christianity wasn't a major force in the 1st Century, so there wasn't much need to write about it.

I think Jesus was a person who lived in the early first century, but their isn't a lot of evidence to back that up.    My view is based on a belief that all mythological hero figures have a basis in fact.    

For a good overview of the arguments with pro's and con's (and areas of agreement between the 2 views) head to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth

The consensus view among historians is he existed, but mythological details have been added on.

Quoted: Quoted: [ Are you really equating the evidence for the Holocaust and the evidence for Jesus? You know, a lot of people about 80% of the planet do not believe in Jesus. Some of us have some good reasons to arrive at this point of view. Where did you come up with this figure? (80 percent of the planet) Its hard to believe that  Jews even deny that Jesus existed, that is just incredible. there is plenty of historical data to prove that , if you want to say all of it is forgeries and lies go ahead. like i said before you are no better than the pres of iran and his denying the holocaust never existed .  All because of your hate.

Why is it so hard to believe? The Jesus narative is supposed to be the story of a bunch of Jews doing Jewish things in the Jewish homeland in fulfilment of Jewish prophecies. However when a Traditional Jew reads the Jesus narative he sees something that is very alien to Judaism. If you combine that with the overwhelming similarities between the Jesus Narative and so many other mangod stories that are again alien to Judaism and add on top of that the lack of evidence, why is it hard to believe? I can understand if you disagree with our stance but it is not out of hate. It is simply the arrival at a choice based on the facts as we see them and the majority of our sages past have as well.

When you look at the Hebrew bible, you look at it with a christian lense. Through that lense you see things that suggest Jesus. Traditional Jews do not look at our scriptures in that way. For the most part every single thing you see in the Hebrew Bible as being a reference to Jesus, we see as it could not be one. Again, to the Jew, Jesus answers a question that we never had and goes against some of our most fundamental ideas.

Jesus is something I did not need, I already had it without him. Jesus saves me from a place that was never a part of my faith, The gift of Jesus is forbiden in my faith, The gift of Jesus is alien to my faith and yet Christianity claims to be the fulfilment of my faith.  I am not trying to be and ass, I am just pointing out that we see it in a very different way.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you bother to read them, they almost all without exception have the same caviat that you ignore written accounts and only focus on phsyscal evidence.  Kind of hard from 2,000 years ago.  Most of us under those same guidelines couldn't prove our great grandfathers lived.   So if you ignore the religous only one is left with only civil writtings of that time period and the dominate government of the time was the Romans.  There ae numerous mentions of Jesus the man in the Roman historical accounts of the early Ceasars from Tiberias, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero periods.  The later of course mainly indirect references to those who knew Jesus personaly. I've read (and rejected) the views of all the major writers who hold the mythicist view. None of them suggest ignoring written accounts and will only accept physical evidence. All of them think the accounts are either Christian forgeries (and even non-mythicists admit many of them are at least partial forgeries)  or come from writers who wrote of other mythical figures actually existing.     You say there are many accounts, which is wrong.  You can some up all the non-Biblical accounts of Jesus from the first century on a few lines. Which isn't surprising, Christianity wasn't a major force in the 1st Century, so there wasn't much need to write about it. I think Jesus was a person who lived in the early first century, but their isn't a lot of evidence to back that up.    My view is based on a belief that all mythological hero figures have a basis in fact.     For a good overview of the arguments with pro's and con's (and areas of agreement between the 2 views) head to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth The consensus view among historians is he existed, but mythological details have been added on. Ignoring Christian sources, there is Josephus, Philo, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.  This doesn' t include what is considered the lessor texts from the period. I guess what you call few I call many but will say the writtings of all of these men is more than a few lines.   The writings of those men are more than a few lines.  The lines mentioning Jesus are only a few lines, and many of them don't actually refer to a living Jesus, the the Christ worshipped by his followers 90 years after his death Even the assumption that each translation of these texts was 100%, which IMHO is far fetched, touched an altered somewhat by Christians through history, one may gather the actual message maybe slightly althered but the fact the man lived about as evident as any fact anyone lived before cameras and their personal pocessions still in existance.   Tj

TJ,
   Josephus is universtally accepted to be at least a partial forgery  (in other words if Christians didn't make wholesale insertions, they altered/added wording to fit their religous beliefs).   I personally believe this is an actual historical reference, with some later Christian insertions, but that is debatable and both sides have decent arguments.

Philo never makes references to Jesus in the more than 50 works which survive to this day.   Its is interesting to note his ideas on the Logos were borrowed by Christians and incorporated into the mythology around Jesus, the man.  

The passage by Tacitus is from 115 CE, and he is talking about the Christian cult at the time and stating their beliefs on the matter.  I could make a similar statement about the beliefs of the Raellians, it wouldn't mean their beliefs had a factual or historical basis.  Also Tacitus often wrote of heroic figures like Hercules and reported what he was told without stating opinion on whether it actually occured.   In Germania, he mentions that Hercules had once visited Germany and helped them fight a battle.  Is Hercules a historical figure now as welll?

Suetonius wrote of Chrestus instigating trouble in Rome during the reign of Claudius (41-54 CE).   Since this was after the death of Jesus, it couldn't have been Jesus instigating the trouble and his misuse of the title Christ as a given name (Chrestus was a common name back then) shows he is simply reporting what he has heard.   Either the followers of Jesus Christ were causing problems or a man named Chrestus was causing problems.  Neither of which points to the historicity of Jesus.

Pliny the Younger wrote to the Emperor Trajan in 113 CE.  He asked for instructions as to any action that he should take against the Christians. He informed the emperor that they sang hymns to Jesus Christ as to a god. They did not worship the emperor as was required by Roman law of that day.  This is not a description of a living Jesus, it is a testament to the fact that Christians as early as 113 CE were already worshipping Jesus as God (and therefore very useful to defend against claims that Jesus was not seen as a God by early Christians)  Its very similar to the reference by Tacitus in that respect.

remember, I have no dog in this hunt. I'm an atheist and I believe that Jesus Christ existed.    The problem is there is no clear evidence he did.   The earliest testimonies are by Paul, and he never gets into details.   Maybe he had those details and never got into them because his writings were mainly letters, not biographies; but maybe not.    Since we don't know, it is left up to conjecture.

Personally, I think the echo of Jesus in the historical record is large enough to rule out his being entirely mythological.  I think there have been additions and the historical Jesus is beyond recovery in the mass of mythology, but I do think he existed as a living person in the early first century of what is now Israel.

Read the link I posted, I think the problems with the theory outweigh the evidence for it.  Most historians view the question of historicity answered, with the existence of Jesus being more likely.  They will also admit the evidence is slim, but it should be.  Christianity was one of many religions in the first century Roman Empire.   In his lifetime, Jesus was only famous locally, so its not surprising there isn't a lot of information on him.
   

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [ Are you really equating the evidence for the Holocaust and the evidence for Jesus? You know, a lot of people about 80% of the planet do not believe in Jesus. Some of us have some good reasons to arrive at this point of view. Where did you come up with this figure? (80 percent of the planet) Its hard to believe that  Jews even deny that Jesus existed, that is just incredible. there is plenty of historical data to prove that , if you want to say all of it is forgeries and lies go ahead. like i said before you are no better than the pres of iran and his denying the holocaust never existed .  All because of your hate. Why is it so hard to believe? The Jesus narative is supposed to be the story of a bunch of Jews doing Jewish things in the Jewish homeland in fulfilment of Jewish prophecies. However when a Traditional Jew reads the Jesus narative he sees something that is very alien to Judaism. If you combine that with the overwhelming similarities between the Jesus Narative and so many other mangod stories that are again alien to Judaism and add on top of that the lack of evidence, why is it hard to believe? I can understand if you disagree with our stance but it is not out of hate. It is simply the arrival at a choice based on the facts as we see them and the majority of our sages past have as well. When you look at the Hebrew bible, you look at it with a christian lense. Through that lense you see things that suggest Jesus. Traditional Jews do not look at our scriptures in that way. For the most part every single thing you see in the Hebrew Bible as being a reference to Jesus, we see as it could not be one. Again, to the Jew, Jesus answers a question that we never had and goes against some of our most fundamental ideas. Jesus is something I did not need, I already had it without him. Jesus saves me from a place that was never a part of my faith, The gift of Jesus is forbiden in my faith, The gift of Jesus is alien to my faith and yet Christianity claims to be the fulfilment of my faith.  I am not trying to be and ass, I am just pointing out that we see it in a very different way.

I understand why you dont believe in Jesus as described in the Bible, but to deny he ever existed just sounds crazy  to me. There are  other accounts of Jesus living besides the Bible.  Josephus(a jewish historian) for one, but if you believe he was a fraud, his writings are worthless also.

Quoted: I understand why you dont believe in Jesus as described in the Bible, but to deny he ever existed just sounds crazy  to me. There are  other accounts of Jesus living besides the Bible.  Josephus(a jewish historian) for one, but if you believe he was a fraud, his writings are worthless also.

See here is the problem. You are not even educated on the subject enough to have a conversation with. I dont mean that to be confrontational or rude in anyway. You just need to read up on Josephus and the works the Church has forged. No one said Josephus is a fraud. This is part of the problem. Seriously, you are having trouble with this because you believe the lies of the past.

Does the fact that Josephus doesnt talk about Jesus change your faith...no. But think how it reflects on you when you want to use it to prove something to people who are a little more up to date on the issue.

Quoted: Quoted: I understand why you dont believe in Jesus as described in the Bible, but to deny he ever existed just sounds crazy  to me. There are  other accounts of Jesus living besides the Bible.  Josephus(a jewish historian) for one, but if you believe he was a fraud, his writings are worthless also. See here is the problem. You are not even educated on the subject enough to have a conversation with. I dont mean that to be confrontational or rude in anyway. You just need to read up on Josephus and the works the Church has forged. No one said Josephus is a fraud. This is part of the problem. Seriously, you are having trouble with this because you believe the lies of the past. Does the fact that Josephus doesnt talk about Jesus change your faith...no. But think how it reflects on you when you want to use it to prove something to people who are a little more up to date on the issue.

I am not educated enough in your jewish perspective  is that what you mean.
If you dont believe Jesus ever existed, there is nothing i can say that would change your mind. I know that. Plus you will discredit anything i say anyway,right

All i brought to this discussion is that  you Jews are no better that the pres of Iran.
I thought ya'll were.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I understand why you dont believe in Jesus as described in the Bible, but to deny he ever existed just sounds crazy  to me. There are  other accounts of Jesus living besides the Bible.  Josephus(a jewish historian) for one, but if you believe he was a fraud, his writings are worthless also. See here is the problem. You are not even educated on the subject enough to have a conversation with. I dont mean that to be confrontational or rude in anyway. You just need to read up on Josephus and the works the Church has forged. No one said Josephus is a fraud. This is part of the problem. Seriously, you are having trouble with this because you believe the lies of the past. Does the fact that Josephus doesnt talk about Jesus change your faith...no. But think how it reflects on you when you want to use it to prove something to people who are a little more up to date on the issue. I am not educated enough in your jewish perspective  is that what you mean. If you dont believe Jesus ever existed, there is nothing i can say that would change your mind. I know that. Plus you will discredit anything i say anyway,right All i brought to this discussion is that  you Jews are no better that the pres of Iran. I thought ya'll were.

You are twisting the issue. This has nothing to do with Jewish perspective. You are being intulectually dishonest. You Equate Holocaust denial as the same as Jews Denying the existance of Jesus, and you use a source that is known to be fradulent to prove your case agains the Jews. I imagine the irony of that will be lost on you.

Quoted: You are twisting the issue. This has nothing to do with Jewish perspective. You are being intulectually dishonest. You Equate Holocaust denial as the same as Jews Denying the existance of Jesus, and you use a source that is known to be fradulent to prove your case agains the Jews. I imagine the irony of that will be lost on you.

I am  not trying to twist the issues,
The Jews are the only one's that say that Jesus never existed.
I dont know what source you are talikng about that is fraudulant ?? Josephus? you are right i am not up full knowledge of his writing. but you have to realize whatever i readwould be from a Christian perspective.

I am not trying to prove any case against the Jews, ya"ll are the ones that stated that Jesus never existed.

Reading this debate I'm reminded of a little story Jesus told. May he with ears to hear . . .

Luk 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


I don't want to sound preachy but you cannot convince a man against his will. The only way for the rich man to get where the poor man sits is to cross that gulf. That gulf is unbelief. Talking and arguing about it will not cross the divide. Only faith can build the bridge . . .

From the Hun...."Christianity would stand on its own IF the entirety of the Old Testament could be shown to be a fraud."

You know, it really a wonder why us Jews are quick to be defensive... Is it really that hard to leave your "faith" for even one second to try and at least attempt to understand anothers POV without being quick to JUDGE....

Quoted:

Keeping on-track with the original thread:

And I don't blame you one little bit.



I am still waiting on neshomamench to answer my question about his '80%' statement.

I hope I don't have to wait 2,000 years for his answer though.

I might not have that long....nor might he.

Eric The(DevoutlySincere)Hun

Quoted: From the Hun...."Christianity would stand on its own IF the entirety of the Old Testament could be shown to be a fraud."

Yep.

You know, it really a wonder why us Jews are quick to be defensive... Is it really that hard to leave your "faith" for even one second to try and at least attempt to understand anothers POV without being quick to JUDGE....

I judge nothing and no one.

Do you think that OldGuy meant to express a kind and understanding POV when he said that Jesus was a Greek fairy tale?

Sorry, but I don't play that game.

You really wish to play hardball?

Fine, I can play hardball.

And I play hardball very well!

Eric The(BatterUp!)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: From the Hun...."Christianity would stand on its own IF the entirety of the Old Testament could be shown to be a fraud." Yep. You know, it really a wonder why us Jews are quick to be defensive... Is it really that hard to leave your "faith" for even one second to try and at least attempt to understand anothers POV without being quick to JUDGE.... I judge nothing and no one. Do you think that OldGuy meant to express a kind and understanding POV when he said that Jesus was a Greek fairy tale? Sorry, but I don't play that game. You really wish to play hardball? Fine, I can play hardball. And I play hardball very well! Eric The(BatterUp!)Hun

Hun....I don't speak for oldguy, nor will I attempt to....

This is an open forum and it appears your "buttons" are easily pushed....so as far as a game...or hard balll...either this can be a learning experience or just a bunch of people throwing faith based beliefs at eachother without truely understanding a POV that was asked about openly....

As I am sure you know...."there is one in every crowd" and I can only hope you appreciate a question was asked...I feel you imply that our Jewish POV is simply wrong because it doesn't follow a Christian POV...that is JUDGING sir.....as for the rest (80%) its just spitting hairs. neshomamench, though I don't know him, has always attempted to keep it an unemotional discussion, where oldguy has motivation to make it very personal.

You know, this is exaclty why I don't like entering the religious forum, AR15.com is a terrific forum, one of the best. But in the religious section, well professionalism is always a must or it quickly falls apart...there HARD BALL in your court Hun.

Quoted: Thanks Dino, good discussion.  Sorry I'm late getting back.  Yesterday was the Mrs. birthday. I've read quite a bit of Josephus admittably more for the historical content than religious but have read enough to know that yes the paragraph on Jesus is slanted a little but it is pretty obvious to the point that you can almost tell where.  I found his writtings on John the Baptist probably more interesting since there was more detail and the message less around John than those he interfaced with.  My personal favorite read unrelated to this thread is his writtings on Herod Apuippa, good read there.  I have a tad of interest in the first Ceasars.   I also have to admit having not read Philo in quite long time but I seemed to have recalled my reference there was to some claim he met Peter or something to that effect.  It was a long time ago. I will give it another read or at least browse through it for an eye on this topic. Thx, Tj

TJ, have you seen anything on the recent translation of ancient Arab copies of Josephus.  

All I have is the excerpt, but apparently the quotation reads,

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus.  His conduct was good and was known to be virtuous.  And may people from among the Jews and teh other nations became his disciples.  Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die.  But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship.  They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

The footnote I have on this quotation is Charlesworth, Jesus within Judaism, p. 95 but I don't have the original work.

That seems to clear up some of the obvious Christian interpolations like "if it be lawful to call him a man."

I would be interested in seeing anything you have on Philo.  I don't remember any reference to Jesus or early Christianity in his work, but if it's there I would like to see it.  Also, I think it would be very unusual if he met Peter because I am not aware of any tradition that Peter went to Egypt.

Quoted: <Major Snippage> There is actually little that may be understood from the person of Jesus from Christian texts that he was any other than a Jew of his time, whose teachings seemed quite in-line with the Pharisees of his time.  His standing as a great prophet? Even by measures of the period as understood by Jews, there was nothing exemplary of his teachings as understood by even the novel interpretations of todays Christian bible from the Jewish Torah.   Ed

Ed, I'll agree and have stated before that Jesus' ethical teachings (as recorded in Christian texts) are pretty well in line with the Pharisees.  He does, as you've mentioned in another thread, emphasize the internal aspect which they did not, but there is not a significant difference between Jesus' ethical teachings and Pharisaical Judaism.

I do think Jesus' theological teachings as recorded in the Christian texts were radically different than the Pharisees.  One of the clearest examples is found in John 8:59 where Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

In Exodus where Moses asked G_d what to say when Pharaoh asked who sent him, the Septuagint translates G_d's reply with the exact Greek words Jesus used here.  While just the use of the same words (very common in Greek in other contexts) would be a weak example of a claim of diety.  However when connected with the context of "BEFORE Abraham, I AM" it is a very clear claim to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Jesus' claim to exist before Abraham, juxtaposed with his use of the present tense (especially considering the allusion to Exodus) is a claim to be eternal.  The writer records the Jews attempted to stone Jesus upon hearing this phrase.  Even if we concede the point that this is a Christian writer's record of the Jewish response, it still indicates that the writer intends for us to understand this statement as a claim to be the God of the Old Testament.

Now, if you would concede for the moment that Jesus claimed to be G_d, what would be the response commanded in the Torah to a person claiming to be G_d?  What would be the likely response of Jews in the first century to that claim?

Quoted: [<SNIP> The Jews are the only one's that say that Jesus never existed.

Minor hijack to follow:

If that were true, there would be a lot less discussion in this forum and my life as a Christian minister would be a great deal easier.

We're on the same "Side" here, but you do need to read a little more.  There are clergy in several Christian denominations who would say that Jesus did not exist, or that it doesn't matter if He did, or that at least we have no idea what he really taught.  I disagree with them, but they are out there. In addition, numerous atheists, wiccans, buddhist, hindus, etc. who would also claim Jesus did not exist.  Not all of the members of those groups by any means, but enough to thoroughly discredit your statement.

I hope you take this in the spirit it was intended.  Christians (heck, everyone) would be better off if we understood that when we make one false claim out of ignorance it hurts our chances of being listened to, understood and believed on other issues where we may have a legitimate point.

Quoted: Quoted: [<SNIP> The Jews are the only one's that say that Jesus never existed. Minor hijack to follow: If that were true, there would be a lot less discussion in this forum and my life as a Christian minister would be a great deal easier. We're on the same "Side" here, but you do need to read a little more.  There are clergy in several Christian denominations who would say that Jesus did not exist, or that it doesn't matter if He did, or that at least we have no idea what he really taught.  I disagree with them, but they are out there. In addition, numerous atheists, wiccans, buddhist, hindus, etc. who would also claim Jesus did not exist.  Not all of the members of those groups by any means, but enough to thoroughly discredit your statement. I hope you take this in the spirit it was intended.  Christians (heck, everyone) would be better off if we understood that when we make one false claim out of ignorance it hurts our chances of being listened to, understood and believed on other issues where we may have a legitimate point.

You are right, guess i could have worded that differently.

Quoted: [ Do you think that OldGuy meant to express a kind and understanding POV when he said that Jesus was a Greek fairy tale? I was asked for a Jewish perspective and I gave mine. You are correct to assume that I made no effort to be kind or understanding. Sorry, but I don't play that game. You really wish to play hardball? Fine, I can play hardball. And I play hardball very well! You have nothing to play with, as you have stated the nazarene's name appears no where in the "Old Testament." Eric The(BatterUp!)Hun

This thread is downright silly.  Everyone's said what they said, no one is really here to experience other people's viewpoints and ponder them, this is a waste of arfkom server space.

Quoted: This thread is downright silly.  Everyone's said what they said, no one is really here to experience other people's viewpoints and ponder them, this is a waste of arfkom server space.

+1

Quoted: This thread is downright silly.  Everyone's said what they said, no one is really here to experience other people's viewpoints and ponder them, this is a waste of arfkom server space.

What are you worried about?  Are you are footing the bill for server space?  If people want to talk and try to understand each other, what's your problem with that?   If it's just a bunch of noise to you, there are plenty of other threads that need your wisdom.   This is one of the FEW threads on ARFCOM that does not WASTE server space.