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Posted: 2/7/2006 10:08:01 AM EDT
A friend of mine claims Jesus was born into a rich family. The inn was actually a relatives house and the bible was mis-translated. I can't see where any of his claims are true. Where does he get this stuff??


Consider the following versus:

    Luk 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

    2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.


Consider Luther's sermon: Martin Luther, from his Wartburg Church Postil, 1521-1522


Thanks,

Shok
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:03:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 1:07:38 PM EDT by Bladeswitcher]

Originally Posted By QShok:
A friend of mine claims Jesus was born into a rich family. The inn was actually a relatives house and the bible was mis-translated. I can't see where any of his claims are true. Where does he get this stuff??



The scriptures do say that the wise men visited Jesus in "the house." But, frankly, I'd be surprised if your friend knows that. It's more likely he heard this somewhere. I think I may even know where . . .

A few weeks ago I caught some TV special that purported to have some insight on the life of Jesus. They talked about how "inn" could have been translated house and that it was common to have living quarters above where the livestock slept. I think they were theorizing that since Joseph's lineage was in Bethlehem he might have had family there and that Mary and Joseph might have stayed with relatives when they came for the census. Seems like the speculation — and that's all it is — was that since there were so many people in town the house was overcrowded.

So, to answer your question, "Where does he get this stuff?" He might have seen it on TV.

The other stuff, about the family being rich, he sure didn't read in the scriptures. There is no indication in the scriptures that his family had any money or land or livestock to speak of. All we know about Joseph was he was a carpenter. You can draw your own conclusions about what that meant in terms of lifestyle. But take note, we don't know how long the father was in the picture. There's no mention of him after Jesus was a child. Mary COULD have been a single mother at some point. The scriptures do tell us Jesus had brothers and sisters so apparently Joseph was around for awhile (and maybe all along — he's just not mentioned). Beyond this, we just don't know anything about Jesus' family life.

The bigger question is, "what does it matter?" Does any of this have any bearing on eternal life? Are we edified by such questions? If we needed to know these things for our spiritual growth don't you think they would have been recorded?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:54:24 PM EDT
Joseph may or may not have had bling before Jesus was born.

However, 3 dudes who could command an audience with the king came and gave his son a bunch of really cool stuff, Gold, Frankensence, and Myrh. I believe that Joseph moved into upper middle class or lower upper class at that point.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:52:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
Joseph may or may not have had bling before Jesus was born.

However, 3 dudes who could command an audience with the king came and gave his son a bunch of really cool stuff, Gold, Frankensence, and Myrh. I believe that Joseph moved into upper middle class or lower upper class at that point.



Not a major issue... but I don't believe the Bible ever says "3" wisemen... simply wisemen bearing gifts of gold, frankensence and mirh... could have been two, could have been ten. Could have been 30. Who knows, the quantity of the three gifts is unknown as well.

As far as "what does it matter?" Sometimes it interesting to ponder on the details of our Savior's life... but I don't base my beliefs on things that are not documented in the Word.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:00:48 PM EDT
Aren't all Jews rich?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:52:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigMHoff:
Aren't all Jews rich?



Yes.

I even carry a bag of "Jew Gold" around my neck.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:54:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:41:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 8:58:05 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:42:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:47:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:51:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By BigMHoff:
Aren't all Jews rich?



Yes.

I even carry a bag of "Jew Gold" around my neck.



I broke the dam.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:03:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:31:21 PM EDT
The Jew/rich thing was me trying to be sarcasticly funny. I'm Jewish and ment no harm. Mea Culpa.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 12:02:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 12:04:03 AM EDT by EricTheHun]
We know precisely how rich or poor Joseph must have been.

And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.
Luke 2:22-24

The sacrifice of two turtledoves was that of a poor family, not a wealthy one. It was called, 'the poor's offering.'

But allow Alfred Edersheim, as he wrote in The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, to put this into proper perspective....

It has been observed, that by the side of every humiliation connected with the Humanity of the Messiah, the glory of His Divinity was also made to shine forth. The coincidences are manifestly undesigned on the part of the Evangelic writers, and hence all the more striking.

Thus, if he was born of the humble Maiden of Nazareth, an Angel announced His birth; if the Infant-Saviour was cradled in a manger, the shining host of heaven hymned His Advent. And so afterwards - if He hungered and was tempted in the wilderness, Angels ministered to Him, even as an Angel strengthened Him in the agony of the garden.

If He submitted to baptism, the Voice and vision from heaven attested His Sonship; if enemies threatened, He could miraculously pass through them; if the Jews assailed, there was the Voice of God to glorify Him; if He was nailed to the cross, the sun draped his brightness, and earth quaked; if He was laid in the tomb, Angels kept its watches, and heralded His rising.

And so, when now the Mother of Jesus, in her humbleness, could only bring the 'poor's offering,' the witness to the greatness of Him Whom she had borne was not wanting. A 'eucharistic offering' - so to speak - was brought, the record of which is the more precious that Rabbinic writings make no allusion to the existence of the party, whose representatives we here meet. Yet they were the true outcome of the spirit of the Old Testament, and, as such, at this time, the special recipients of the 'Spirit' of the Old Testament.


From Book II, Chapter 7...The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 1883.

Now, continuing in St. Luke's account in Chapter 2.....

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Verses 25-38

Yes. The earthly parents of Jesus were of very modest means....

Eric The(VeryModest)Hun
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:19:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigMHoff:
The Jew/rich thing was me trying to be sarcasticly funny. I'm Jewish and ment no harm. Mea Culpa.



It was very funny.

The quote from Cartman came to mind instantly and I could not resist.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:56:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 9:07:37 AM EDT by scuba_ed]
"Aren't all Jews rich?'"

___

Many.

Rich in heritage? Yes.

Rich in our pride of Jewishness? Some.

Rich in Jewish contributions to science, medicine, and the arts? Yes.

We're overly represented by our numbers through our religious ethos to become learned and to conribute for the betterment of all. It's part of the idea that Jews and G-d are in partnership to help finish the creation of the world.

G-d has done his (hers?) part by providng a nurturing world; it's an obligation of Jews and our co-religionists to complete creation for the betterment of all that one day this will truely be a world redeemed. Redeemed from hunger, strife, poverty, and ignorance.

Me? I'm fine!


Ed

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:05:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 9:09:36 AM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By BigMHoff:
The Jew/rich thing was me trying to be sarcasticly funny. I'm Jewish and ment no harm. Mea Culpa.



__

No harm, No FAL...oops, meant foul!

Shalom, BigMHoff!

Ed
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:34:59 PM EDT
Joseph was a carpenter. A skilled tradesman. Probably in the middle of the pecking order. Lots of peopletoday like to protray the Holy Family as homeless. They were not. They were visiting a very crowded city filled with visitors and no rooms were available. It's happened to me too.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 4:41:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Joseph was a carpenter. A skilled tradesman. Probably in the middle of the pecking order. Lots of peopletoday like to protray the Holy Family as homeless. They were not. They were visiting a very crowded city filled with visitors and no rooms were available. It's happened to me too.



Holy family? I knew that Catholics elevated Mary to holy status but I wasn't aware it applied to Joseph as well. Is that just an informal expression you used or is that actually in doctrine? Does that apply to Jesus' brothers and sisters, too?

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:48:35 PM EDT
Joseph was a Carpenter and by extension he would have taught the Boyss he was raising to be too, His sons and the Savior.

Carpenters were a respected lot back in those days it was considered a guilded skill.

So no he was not Rich, but he would have been what we consider now to be Skilled Working class or Middle Class.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:37:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 7:41:01 AM EDT by gaweidert]
Bladeswitcher,

The Holy Family is merely a long used term to describe them in the Catholic Church. Joseph is a saint in the eyes of the Church. Saints by definition are holy. Holy, in this instance, being defined as following God's will. The word sacrifice come from the term to make holy. We perform the sacrifice, God makes it holy. Joseph's reaction to Mary's pregnancy displayed a profound trust in God also. He could nave had Mary put to death. Exposing her to the law would have led to her execution.

Imagine being Joseph. Your fiancee comes to you and says: "Honey I'm pregnant. We both know you are not the father. God did it to me." You're probably a bit miffed at this point and need time to think this over. So you go home have some wierd dreams and decide that the wierd dreams are really God talking to you. So you put your trust in God too, accept the situation and marry your fiancee. Being Jesus' earthly father placed him at great risk too. Hence the flight to Eqypt. He could have abandoned the family, but stuck to his promise and helped raise Jesus.

As the whether or not Mary had any more children is irrelavent to me. (Official Catholic Doctrine is that she had no other children. Believe it or not, that only came about in the late 19th century. It formalized long held traditions, How that tradition came about is a mystery to me as I have read the Gospels too.) Her "Yes!" to God's request is what makes her Holy. She too knew the law, and the risk, but put her trust in God to protect her no matter what. Most of us here would be hard pressed to display such trust and obediance to God's will.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:59:53 AM EDT
ETH nailed it. The offering of the doves absolutely indicates a poor family.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:48:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Bladeswitcher,

The Holy Family is merely a long used term to describe them in the Catholic Church . . .



So the term is official doctrine then. I didn't know that.

And yes, I think Joseph must have been a pretty upright guy to trust in God like that. The scriptures record five times when the baby Jesus's life was protected by dreams or angels and Joseph was obedient to every one.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:47:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By BigMHoff:
Aren't all Jews rich?



Yes.

I even carry a bag of "Jew Gold" around my neck.



wow, jew gold

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