Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/7/2006 6:31:23 AM EDT
Rioting over cartoon depictions of someone's prophet or god. People killing in the name of their god or religion. And so on...

All this over a bunch of bullshit. Let's face it, religion is bullshit. I'm not saying there is no god, but when is the last time anyone's religion actually did something for them instead of take up some of their time or money? My religion hasn't made me a milionaire or made me smarter, or the greatest programmer in the world. In fact it has done absolutely nothing for me, other than given me something to ponder from time to time, or discuss with other people and share ideas on how to live and what not. The true root of any religion is to teach people how to make their lives better here on earth, not necessarily in the after life. They are guides for LIFE not DEATH.

All this crazyness is over an absentee landlord. Meaning, god leaves men to their own choices. Surely people find solace when they pray, but that's about it.

Why get all crazy or riot about a supposed insult to a religion? Not to mention you are defying your supposed sacred religion by acting this way. When was the last time islam or even christianity said "if someone insults this religion, you must attack people, burn down stuff and riot day and night...".

Now if Muhammed or Jesus actually granted insane amounts of prayers and gave people things they asked for (instead of just making a plan and working to get what you want in life), I could see rioting and shit. Hell, I'd just ask Jesus to openly duke it out with Mohammed or whatever, if that's the way things worked. But they don't work that way. So why in the hell riot and act so crazy??

I just don't get it. Does anyone see where I'm going with this?


- rem

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:33:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:36:23 AM EDT by macman37]
IBTL

Edit:


I just don't get it.


Clearly.


Does anyone see where I'm going with this?


Nope.

Do you have convictions? Are you willing to die for something? (notice I said "die", not "kill") Well, some of us do have convictions and are willing to give our lives for something.

Put some more thought into it before you bash everyone who believes in God BTW. You're not helping your argument when you do that.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:34:32 AM EDT
Oh comon, dont IBTL me.


- rem
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:35:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
Oh comon, dont IBTL me.


- rem



See edit above.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:37:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:40:08 AM EDT by remedy]
I'm not talking about belief in a god, I'm talking about religion. Those are two seperate things.


I believe in God just based off what I've experienced in life, even aside from the fact I was raised Methodist. But I have to be frank in stating that I don't understand why people go absolutely insane over their religion, especially poor people that have nothing to show for such devotion to their religion. Having a religion changes nothing about your life, other than how you treat yourself and others. That may or may not have a direct impact on what becomes of you in life, but it's no sure bet to becoming "wealthy" or anything like that.

The point I'm trying to make is, as it pertains to RELIGION only- why do people go so insane about it? It's not like these people's religion is pulling them out of the predicament they are in and giving them something so great to be so insane over.


- rem
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:40:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
I'm not talking about belief in a god, I'm talking about religion. Those are two seperate things.

- rem



Methinks you need to read the very definition of "religion" then. It might be enlightening to you.

If you truly believe what you typed there, you lost this thread the second you clicked "Submit".
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:41:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:44:04 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By remedy:
Rioting over cartoon depictions of someone's prophet or god. People killing in the name of their god or religion. And so on...

All this over a bunch of bullshit. Let's face it, religion is bullshit. I'm not saying there is no god, but when is the last time anyone's religion actually did something for them instead of take up some of their time or money? My religion hasn't made me a milionaire or made me smarter, or the greatest programmer in the world. In fact it has done absolutely nothing for me, other than given me something to ponder from time to time, or discuss with other people and share ideas on how to live and what not.



If faith has never motivated you to action, then you never really had faith to begin with. For millions including myself, faith is a code by which we live, that teaches service to others more than the persuit of naked self interest. It demands things of us that are not pleasant or convenient, and that sometimes seem to be inhuman. (Love your enemies as yourselves, love the stranger, etc...)

If you are looking for what you get out of the deal, then you don't really understand the Christian faith. I can't speak with authority for the other faiths, but Christianity is not about self improvement. It is about submission to the example of Jesus Christ and about, as 1st John chapter 2 says, walking just as He walked.



So why in the hell riot and act so crazy??



To associate what we are seeing now in response to cartoons to be descriptive of ALL peoples of faith is incorrect. While it may seem like a simple conclusion on the surface, there is no logical basis to back it up. As I pointed out in another thread, how many riots did Mother Theresa start? How many embassies did Corrie Ten Boom burn down? How many jihads has Billy Graham called for?

Judging all faith as the same is intellectually dishonest, as not all faiths stand for the same things.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:43:51 AM EDT
I meant to say that I'm merely focusing on the religion part, not the details of the God part or the intepretation of the God part.

There are people that actually recognize the same God, or Jesus Christ for example that are in complete odds over their exact interpretation of it, meaning their religion's butt heads. Like Catholic and Baptist. Both recognize Jesus but don't have the same rituals or exact practices and policies.



- rem
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:46:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Judging all faith as the same is intellectually dishonest, as not all faiths stand for the same things.




Right. Anything that kills for a god, faith, name etc should be severely scutinized. And Im speaking as a Christian.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:51:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

If faith has never motivated you to action, then you never really had faith to begin with. For millions including myself, faith is a code by which we live, that teaches service to others more than the persuit of naked self interest. It demands things of us that are not pleasant or convenient, and that sometimes seem to be inhuman. (Love your enemies as yourselves, love the stranger, etc...)

If you are looking for what you get out of the deal, then you don't really understand the Christian faith. I can't speak with authority for the other faiths, but Christianity is not about self improvement. It is about submission to the example of Jesus Christ and about, as 1st John chapter 2 says, walking just as He walked.



No, I understand it quite well, I just was merely trying to put it in very simple terms. If a religion is basically a guide to how to make your life better and in some cases a giant diagram on how to make the world a better place through unconditional love and selflessness (much of what Jesus teaches), then why do people go so crazy over their religion? I guess I was trying to question why people are so agressive in defense of their religion when it is merely a guide to life, not a provider of sorts. It's not like Jesus spent a weekend with me, watching the football game and so forth and became a great friend, then you insulted him and I got really pissed about it because what you said wasn't true - he really is a Steelers fan. Etc...

I just don't see why an insult to a religion can drive people crazy.


- rem



Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:36:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
Rioting over cartoon depictions of someone's prophet or god. People killing in the name of their god or religion. And so on...

All this over a bunch of bullshit. Let's face it, religion is bullshit. I'm not saying there is no god, but when is the last time anyone's religion actually did something for them instead of take up some of their time or money? My religion hasn't made me a milionaire or made me smarter, or the greatest programmer in the world. In fact it has done absolutely nothing for me, other than given me something to ponder from time to time, or discuss with other people and share ideas on how to live and what not. The true root of any religion is to teach people how to make their lives better here on earth, not necessarily in the after life . . .



And you think learning how to live is "bullshit"? Have you actually seriously studied the scriptures and tried to apply them to your life? I can think of few activities that have such a profound impact on a person's life and well being. BTW, nobody said religion would make you rich. It might not make you smarter but it will make you a whole lot wiser.

That being said, rioting over cartoons is hardly justified . . .
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:00:13 AM EDT
Saying that religion is bullshit is a pretty general statement, don't you think?

Just because you have had a bad experience with religion doesn't mean that others feel the same way.

Of course religion can't bring you material wealth, if it did there would be no point to it. The idea is that there is something higher than us in this world, there is something that is beyond our understanding. Belief in God has a lot to do with religion. If the God some people believe in doesn't want them to do anything then that is their opinion.


Anything that kills for a god, faith, name etc should be severely scutinized.


Every faith has done this through history. If you would die for your faith, why wouldn't you kill for it? This isn't about any specific religion, it is about the idea. It's about how much you would sacrifice, how much you would be willing to risk for what you know to be true. Look at history- religion is probably the number one cause of violence. There isn't a faith around that tells people to kill for God. Some people interpret things in a way that makes them think they need to be violent. Is there anything in Christianity that tells people to blow up abortion clinics?

For many people, religion isn't something they do to help them through life, it is their life. The purpose of their life is the religion. It isn't a hobby or anything like that- without it they are nothing and for that reason they do see it as their provider. When something threatens that they tend to have a strong reaction. This is especially true for Muslims. For more on the cartoon see the other thread on it.

If you study what faith means to people around the world then you will find that it is a big motivator, especially in poor countries where people don't have as many worldly belongings and pleasures distracting them.


Check this out:

Qur'an 5:82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:09:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 9:16:28 AM EDT by abdulrahman]
You brought up some interesting topics:


All this crazyness is over an absentee landlord. Meaning, God leaves men to their own choices.


Not everyone shares that view. Personally, I believe in fate, predestination, and the fact that God controls every single thing in the universe. But I still believe that humans have free will in a sense. If anyone wants a further explanation then ask, I don't want to hijack the thread.



The true root of any religion is to teach people how to make their lives better here on earth, not necessarily in the after life. They are guides for LIFE not DEATH.


That is absolutely untrue for many religions. Religious ascetics forsake worldly pleasures in the hope that it will get them reward in the hereafter.


EDIT: Just noticed this-


Now if Muhammed or Jesus actually granted insane amounts of prayers and gave people things they asked for (instead of just making a plan and working to get what you want in life), I could see rioting and shit. Hell, I'd just ask Jesus to openly duke it out with Mohammed or whatever, if that's the way things worked. But they don't work that way. So why in the hell riot and act so crazy??



In Islam Muhammad (SWS) can't grant anyone's prayers. If you pray to Muhammad then it would be considered shirk, which is probably the worst sin you can commit in Islam. God is the only one who can grant people things in Islam.

If religion was something that could be proven, if there was concrete, undeniable, rock solid proof that one religion was right then what point would there be? Nobody would have genuine faith. The harder it is for you to worship God, the more he will reward you for worshipping him. It's about the effort and the intention, striving to be perfect in your belief and being obedient to God. That's just what I think, but it shows that there is more than one way of looking at it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:00:45 PM EDT
"If religion was something that could be proven, if there was concrete, undeniable, rock solid proof that one religion was right then what point would there be?"

Uh, I guess the "point" would be that we're following something we KNOW to be true? The starting point on knowing what is true after all is distinguishing between what is claimed or asserted as true and what is reasonable based on what we definiately know is true.

For example; we know of human beings who are merciful rather than vengeful. If someone comes along preaching a god 'who is all merciful' we would REASONABLY expect this deity to be MORE merciful than a human being, since gods or God are/is by definition SUPER-HUMAN.

If the god in question was preached in a manner that led one to conclude or suspect that he wasn't more merciful than fellow human beings, REASON would suggest rather powerfully that this deity either isn't God, or the fellow preaching about him doesn't know what he's talking about.

"The harder it is for you to worship God, the more he will reward you for worshipping him."
Maybe. But then it's hard for me to believe in 500 million gods, as the Hindu's believe. Does that make THEIR religion more praiseworthy?

"It's about the effort and the intention, striving to be perfect in your belief and being obedient to God."

The most that can be said about the above is.... if perfectly true it would REDUCE a person's moral guilt but it wouldn't do anything to ascertain whether or not that person is right in actions or belief. Intentions do matter in the calculus of moral standing... thus the difference between premeditated murder and 'unintentional homicide'.

But let's be consistent here: if Muslims (who profess love and honor of Mohammed) penned cartoons of him, then fellow religionists would be perhaps justified in horror and outrage since the accused would presumably have KNOWN FULL WELL the gravity of what they did....whereas Danish cartoonists, scribbling from within a nearly total secular, "post-Christian" social scene for non-Christian newspapers for a non- or 'post-Christian' audience, would NOT HAVE KNOWN full well what they were doing...

Hence the Muslim injunction towards violence for unbelief would seem to ONLY APPLY "ad intra", for fellow believers, not ad extra, against those who don't believe.

But getting back to reason and truth. If a religion preaches that it's god is "all merciful" but then goes on to preach not just extreme rare scenarios but common reasons to punish human beings up to and including death for infractions...one would REASONABLY conclude that whatever is true, the idea that this deity is "all merciful" can't be true, unless the deity is not bound by coherence and logic.

But if the God you worship doesn't have to be consistent, if morality is whatever HE says it is, without rhyme or reason, with out an inner or outer logic....then what possible grounds could a believer in this God have for being outraged with the actions of others?

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:05:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 12:09:31 PM EDT by remedy]

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
That is absolutely untrue for many religions. Religious ascetics forsake worldly pleasures in the hope that it will get them reward in the hereafter.




That is absolutely rediculous and fundamentally illogical. Life is supposed to be a cherished miracle, ALL LIFE on this planet. If you did nothing but obsess about the afterlife and forsake this life for a better world after this, then what would be the fucking point of being here?

The point of being here is to learn and grow and do the right thing, and leave a good impact on the world when you leave. The only thing you can leave behind in this world is a good memory, impacting mankind or the planet, or your DNA which is passed on to your children. DNA is what life is really all about anyway, DNA records the important events in each lifeform and passes it on to it's offspring slightly changing them so they can adapt or be more knowledgable (or intelligent) in their lifetime.

Anyway, I know I didn't explain myself very well in the start of this thread, but I was trying to figure out why people are so obsessed with their religion. For me it is just a small traight... something I learned, worked on and believed in... in that it would help outline and guide my life, and define my conscience. But other than that, I would not care one bit if someone drew a silly cartoon with Jesus or Methodists in it, even if it was highly insulting or rediculous. I wouldn't take any personal offense and riot or freak out. I guess what I was trying to show was how religion isn't tangible, it isn't something that directly impacts your life other than it being a set of guiding principles.



- rem

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:35:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:

Originally Posted By abdulrahman:
That is absolutely untrue for many religions. Religious ascetics forsake worldly pleasures in the hope that it will get them reward in the hereafter.




That is absolutely rediculous and fundamentally illogical. Life is supposed to be a cherished miracle, ALL LIFE on this planet. If you did nothing but obsess about the afterlife and forsake this life for a better world after this, then what would be the fucking point of being here?

The point of being here is to learn and grow and do the right thing, and leave a good impact on the world when you leave. The only thing you can leave behind in this world is a good memory, impacting mankind or the planet, or your DNA which is passed on to your children. DNA is what life is really all about anyway, DNA records the important events in each lifeform and passes it on to it's offspring slightly changing them so they can adapt or be more knowledgable (or intelligent) in their lifetime.

Anyway, I know I didn't explain myself very well in the start of this thread, but I was trying to figure out why people are so obsessed with their religion. For me it is just a small traight... something I learned, worked on and believed in... in that it would help outline and guide my life, and define my conscience. But other than that, I would not care one bit if someone drew a silly cartoon with Jesus or Methodists in it, even if it was highly insulting or rediculous. I wouldn't take any personal offense and riot or freak out. I guess what I was trying to show was how religion isn't tangible, it isn't something that directly impacts your life other than it being a set of guiding principles.



- rem




Religion , aka "my personal relationship with the big JC" , affects my life every day, and to me it is very tangible.

Your religion, aka "remedy-ism", sounds like something you have been making up as you go along. I'm not surprised that you dont find any meaning in it. And i would not expect you to take offense at a cartoon of of Jesus. Because from what i've read of "remedy-ism" , in this thread, its believers dont think too highly of Him. Since you invented "remedy-ism", i guess that makes you it's god. I wonder if you would take offense to inacurate depictions of yourself.
If you believe my depiction of "remedy-ism" is inaccurate, or demeaning, then maybe you might understand how these "rioters" might feel.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:57:23 PM EDT
JusAdBellum:


Uh, I guess the "point" would be that we're following something we KNOW to be true? The starting point on knowing what is true after all is distinguishing between what is claimed or asserted as true and what is reasonable based on what we definiately know is true.


There would be a point in that the system would be unchanged but the definition of faith wouldn't be the same.

Only the Muslims who blow something up get into the news so I wouldn't expect anyone here to be able to say what a regular Muslim was.


"The harder it is for you to worship God, the more he will reward you for worshipping him."
Maybe. But then it's hard for me to believe in 500 million gods, as the Hindu's believe. Does that make THEIR religion more praiseworthy?



I was talking about Islam. I believe that that saying is true for Christianity but I'm not sure- someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think that it is okay for Muslims to hold non-Muslims in a non-Muslim country to their standards. It's a little bit different if they insult Islam.


But if the God you worship doesn't have to be consistent, if morality is whatever HE says it is, without rhyme or reason, with out an inner or outer logic....then what possible grounds could a believer in this God have for being outraged with the actions of others?



I don't understand what you are trying to say. The God in Islam is consistent. Where did I say he isn't consistent. Muslims who slander Islam will (inshah"Allah) get more punishment than non-Muslims who do it. The thing is that Muslims rarely slander Islam because it is their own religion and they understand how important the Prophet SWS is to Muslims.

You have to realize that if 5,000 people are rioting around the world then that is 3% of the overall Muslim population.


Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:03:34 PM EDT

That is absolutely rediculous and fundamentally illogical. Life is supposed to be a cherished miracle, ALL LIFE on this planet. If you did nothing but obsess about the afterlife and forsake this life for a better world after this, then what would be the fucking point of being here?

The point of being here is to learn and grow and do the right thing, and leave a good impact on the world when you leave. The only thing you can leave behind in this world is a good memory, impacting mankind or the planet, or your DNA which is passed on to your children. DNA is what life is really all about anyway, DNA records the important events in each lifeform and passes it on to it's offspring slightly changing them so they can adapt or be more knowledgable (or intelligent) in their lifetime.



Do you expect everyone here to conform to "remedy-ism?" You obviously don't think that there is a remote possibility that anyone could love God or want to serve him. Read some books or religion, none of us here can answer your personal religious questions for you.

For many people, religion answers the question about what the point of life is. What is the point of life for you? To have fun? To become rich and have a big house and fancy car? Most of the people in this world would probably disagree with you there.

"Remedy-ism" seems like a cult where there is no God and everyone just goes with the flow and passes something down for their kids, who in turn pass something down for their kids, and on and on without any point. Is an easy life a good life in "remedy-ism?"



Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:18:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
But I have to be frank in stating that I don't understand why people go absolutely insane over their religion, especially poor people that have nothing to show for such devotion to their religion.



Are you actually saying that because poor people are not rich people they have "nothing to show" for their faith?
Unlike you they don't equate worshipping God with worshipping mammon.
Top Top