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Posted: 1/14/2006 11:08:45 PM EDT
What is the sequence of events in the end times starting with the rapture?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:22:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 11:26:17 PM EDT by cnow]
The "rapture" isnt something found in the bible. Read The revelation of Jesus Christ from the view that it was written.

Look at what all is in that book... all the pictures....

The seven trumpets(horns) Think about where you get the horns(trumpets) from..hint: Joshua 6:4
But it had to die first.

The altar of fire

The brazen sea

The ark.

The lamb

There are more. And all these speak of the items in the Temple. They are all pictures that symbolize spiritual truths.

The revelation of Jesus Christ is and will happen completely in and thru God's temple.

You are God's temple
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 9:00:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 7:39:23 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
***Edited<va-gunnut>***
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 11:17:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 7:39:38 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
***Edited<va-gunnut>***
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:48:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fast1:
What is the sequence of events in the end times starting with the rapture?



The rapture is not part of the end times - it is part of bad theology and cheap fiction.

There is a lot out there about the end times, and most of it is crap.

Start with the book of revelations and daniel.

Basically, the world plunges into total evil chaos for an indeterminite amount of time until Jesus comes back and beats the snot out of the bad guys.
Matt
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:14:51 PM EDT
2 's already.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:40:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:59:18 PM EDT
I don't remember the Bible mentioning the rapture per say, but I do know that when Jesus comes back, the dead will be raised. There will be a final judgement day for all who have died since the beginning of time. There is also something about the believers being spared from the trials of the end times. Maybe that's where the rapture idea came from.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:13:24 PM EDT
in a nutshell:

rapture--7 year tribulation--2nd coming of Christ--Great White Throne Judgement--1000 year millenium reign of Christ on the throne--last rebellion of mankind--ages of ages

MANY details have been omitted for the sake of time constraints.......
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:20:02 AM EDT
Can you support the rapture part with a Biblical reference?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:31:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:34:46 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By Muskrat:
Can you support the rapture part with a Biblical reference?



The main basis for the different views of the ratpure is Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


They were worried about the Christians who had died before Christ's return and thought that might mean they had lost eternal life.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:56:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Headlice:
in a nutshell:

rapture--7 year tribulation--2nd coming of Christ--Great White Throne Judgment--1000 year millennium reign of Christ on the throne--last rebellion of mankind--ages of ages

MANY details have been omitted for the sake of time constraints.......



... Can you please load this into a Microsoft© Project format?

... Complete with predecessors, successors, resources and parallel activities.

... And I need it by noon tomorrow!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:55:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Headlice:
in a nutshell:

rapture--7 year tribulation--2nd coming of Christ--Great White Throne Judgement--1000 year millenium reign of Christ on the throne--last rebellion of mankind--ages of ages

MANY details have been omitted for the sake of time constraints.......



You Pre-Tribber
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:43:18 PM EDT
Luke 17 34 "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; One will be taken the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; One will be taken and the other left" NIV

Mark 13 the whole chapter.

Mathew 24 the whole chapter.

It will be a very real thing, the Rapture, The Tribulation, the Final Battle it is all in the New Testament
just read it and you will see
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:53:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:16:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
One set or another has thought that THESE were the end times, all through history.

When it doesn't come, they make some excuse and try again tomorrow.


The only end times will be the ones we make for ourselves. God has no reason to force the issue on
us because we're so willing to do ourselves in. God doesn't waste effort. He performs very few genuine miracles or acts of divine intervention, and lets the natural physical laws of this universe,
which he designed, execute his plans in a natural, orderly way.

If God does intervene, he does it subtly, at the quantum mechanical level, where uncertainty is the rule of law anyway.

CJ




Yes and the Earth was created from a big bang...man also came from an ape...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:50:28 PM EDT
Big Bang Yes God does things in a very big way!!! The assembly or reverse of atoms does things very big ,and with a bang!!!!

The only thing I find funny about anyone that understands fusion of atoms,or fission is that it could be very explosive!!!

And the funniest thing is that God can create the whole universe,connect and disconect atoms at will,and all the preachers here need money to further thier cause!!

Like George Carlin said God in his best ,can create a universe,put a man made after his own flesh,give him domion over all that crawl ,creepeth and fly!

Then still need money to be sent to Benny HaH,cause God can't handle money??????

So yes there are things that God does that you will never understand!

If the Big Bang is one of them,then you will be lost forever in the beginning!!!


Bob
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:53:17 PM EDT
First of all, there is more than one “rapture.” Although the word ‘rapture” does not appear in the “Bible” ( the word “Bible” does not appear, either) there is a “catching away” of saints.

1. Old Testament saints:

Old Test saints went to paradise when they died. Paradise was in the center of the earth. That is why the rich man, who was tormented in hell, was able to ask Abraham to send Lazarus, who was in Abraham’s bosom, to bring him a drop of water. Abraham said no because of the great gulf which separated them.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that day.

Those saints rose when Christ was resurrected from the grave and walked on the face of the earth, going throughout Jerusalem

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Jesus then ascended with them to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The taking of captivity capture is the first “rapture.”


2. The catching away of the church:


The church will not go through the great tribulation. This truth is first seen in Genesis. Enoch walked with God in the period before the great flood. Enoch is a picture of the church. Noah, a picture of the nation of Israel, goes through the flood. Enoch was taken up before the flood comes. God protects Noah as he goes through the flood.

Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

This truth is also seen in the book of Revelation. (It is not the book of RevelationS, by the way.)

The first three chapters deals with the CHURCH. John is taken up to heaven in the beginning of chapter four.

Rev 4: 1 ¶ After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

While the great tribulation (which is the time of JACOB’S trouble - the nation of ISRAEL) takes place there is no mention of the church. The church is last mentioned in chapter 3 of Revelation, and not again until chapter 22.

People generally fail to see the distinction between the church of God, and the nation of Israel. They are NOT the same. The church has not taken the place of Israel - God WILL fulfill his promises to that people.

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God

1 Thes 4: 13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Also, please note that when Jesus returns at the SECOND COMING (which is different than at HIS APPEARING) he comes WITH HIS SAINTS. Not FOR his saints but WITH them.

Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

This return with his saints was prophesied by our old friend Enoch (who was raptured as a picture of the church)

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

This is the second “rapture.”

3. The catching away of the tribulation witnesses:

God has witnesses on earth during the great tribulation, or time of Jacob’s trouble.

Rev 7:1 1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

There are two main witnesses:

Rev 11: 3 ¶ And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

These two witnesses are “raptured” and evidently the 144,000 thousand other servants of God are raptured as well, for they appear in heaven before the throne of God in chap 14.

This is the third and final rapture.


The sequence after the catching away of the church:

(in heaven, the church appears at the Judgment Seat of Christ and each persons WORK is tried (not their souls) to see what sort it was. Wood, hay and stubble are burned. Gold, silver and precious stones pass through the fire. In other words, that which was done for self gains no reward, while those things done for Jesus and for others are rewarded)

On earth:

3.5 years of apparent peace
Man of sin reveals himself when he presents himself as god
Jews flee and go into hiding and God miraculously provides for them during the
3.5 years of great tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble
The Lord Jesus Christ returns WITH HIS SAINTS ( the church is not on earth) and Jesus saves his chosen nation of Israel
Jesus establishes his throne on the earth, at Jerusalem
Jesus reigns for 1000 years
Satan is loosed for a season and gathers an army to battle God
Satan is defeated
God melts the elements with a fervent heat
Souls appear before the great white throne - those not written in the Lamb's book of life are cast into the lake of fire
God creates a new heavens and a new earth
New Jerusalem descends
God dwells among men for eternity
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:24:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:43:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By Tonster:



Yes and the Earth was created from a big bang...man also came from an ape...




Precisely. Exactly as God planned, many billions of years ago.

God would not WASTE the effort it would take to fabricate a completed, entirely self-consistent
physical universe that shows compelling and omnipresent evidence of its immense age, and
all things in it as well, when He could create a cosmic egg of his own design that would hatch
and yield a universe and living beings suitable to his needs and desires.

And that act of creation of such a cosmic egg is by FAR a greater testament to God's abilities
than to perform a biblical act of creation as described.

Do you actually buy into the biblical form of creation? If so, how can it be that an intelligent,
reasoning man can believe it when it's obvious to the simplest child that those who wrote and
transcribed the bible had never so much as HEARD of the concept of evolution and wouldn't have
understood it if it was thoroughly and carefully explained to them?

Everything in the bible is written from the perspective of people who lived thousands of years
ago and had the limited knowledge of people who lived thousands of years ago. They were utterly
ignorant of the workings of almost everything that can be described by science, so how can you
take their word as truth?

The bible was written in the days of very ignorant, very primitive levels of learning. Your flashlight
would have scared the piss out of the people living in those days and they'd have worshipped YOU
as a god who wields cold white fire in his hand.

Surely no INTELLIGENT, reasoning man takes everything in the bible literally?


And YES, we are descendants of earlier primates. Not quite apes, but we do share a common
ancestor with them. Only your arrogance and pride can keep you from acknowledging this simple
and irrefutable TRUTH.

Next you'll say that evolution hasn't been proven. Well, neither has the theory of gravity. But
a frog still bumps his butt when he lands, every time. Yes, the fossil record is very incomplete,
but would you care to guess how often fossil formation is even POSSIBLE in a given location
and how long a window of opportunity fossil formation has to begin? Estimates are maybe once
in every 20,000 to 50,000 years, and for anywhere from a few hours to a few months. Outside
of that small window of opportunity that's so rare, fossils don't form.

Like you can get a complete record of evolution in action with so few snapshots, taken so far apart!


CJ



So do you pick and choose which parts of the Bible you believe?
No Genesis creation...no virgin birth...no arisen after 3 days...what else???
May as well call it a scifi book
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:42:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:45:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Sci-fi?

Well, I do believe that at least some parts of it are SOME form of fiction, yes! But not science fiction.

Ever played the "pass the rumor" game? Line up ten people and whisper something in the ear of the first one and have him pass it along down the line. Go to the other end of the line and listen to the version at the end. If it's even recognizable, you're lucky.

Make it even better: The rumor concerns matters and knowledge that the people in the line don't know anything about. What is the end result now?

God's word never had a chance of being relayed ACCURATELY. His prophets (a notion that I am highly skeptical of to begin with) couldn't have understood God's message given their limited
educational backgrounds (long before science of any sort existed, there were no National Geographics, either) and coming from primitive, superstitious cultures) may have done the best they could, but
along the way to being written down in current editions of the bible, the messages got so blurred,
distorted, and skewed, whether by accident, lack of comprehension, or design, that I'm amazed that any of it makes any sense at all.

I trust no religous textbook, neither do I trust people who claim to know all about God and try to
tell me their version. You can't know that, and I don't know it either, but I do know that I don't trust the bible's accuracy.


CJ



Fixed it for you...
I love the people who claim that they cannot trust the accuracy of the Bible due to it was recorded man.
Well it’s called "recorded history" for a reason. Duhhhh Anyone here ever go to an ARF shoot with George Washington? Didn't think so...ALL we know about him was from recorded history. History that MEN recorded. Historically we use letters from all the ages to determine facts about ones life...However when this technique gets applied to the Bible all the sudden the letters/facts are the ravings of madmen.
If it is flawed/inaccurate in your mind why subject yourself to following a make-believe system?
The Bible was inspired by God. To think otherwise is a waste of your time.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:20:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:11:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 3:43:59 PM EDT by Bladeswitcher]

Originally Posted By Muskrat:
I don't remember the Bible mentioning the rapture per say, but I do know that when Jesus comes back, the dead will be raised. . . .




Would that be something like this? (Eph 2:1-6):

1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:37:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fast1:
What is the sequence of events in the end times starting with the rapture?




No rapture, that's just man's ideas and opinions.

As for end times/last times/last days, consider the following:

Heb 1:1-2:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son . . .

1Pet 1:18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you . . .

1Jo 2:18
18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Jude 17-18
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. (Jude was talking about people alive THEN)

Acts 2:14-21
14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


There are more scriptures like this but the point of bringing these up is that they all show last times/days that happened more than 2,000 years ago. The "end times" are not some point on the calendar. The last days/times are a spiritual condition that happens when God's spirit is being poured out in a deeper depth. Don't take my word for it. That's what PAUL said. He said that when the people in the upper room were filled with the holy ghost THESE are the last days that Joel prophesied about. He said that all that stuff about the moon and sun and blood and notable days was happening right then, right now.

Yes, heaven and earth are going to be destroyed — the earth of our mind (Jer 22:29) and the heaven that DID exist (2Co 12:2 shows us there are depths of heaven) will be done away with because a new heaven and a new earth are being built in our minds. The old heaven/earth will be put away like a vesture. The old earth will be burned up with a fervent heat but it's not natural fire but the fire of God's word (Jer 23:29, Heb 12:29, 1Co 3:13-15).

Like the lie that is the rapture, man creates all kinds of false understanding because he tries to understand the scriptures in a natural/physical/man's view of things. The mysteries of God are spiritually discerned, Paul says. To worship God (to honor him and listen to him) you must worship him in spirit.

You want to know the signs of the end of the world and Christ coming? Read Matthew 24 but read it with a spiritual mind. Use the keys left in the Bible to unlock these scriptures. What is war? What is an earthquake? What is "Christ" anyway? Is it the man Jesus or is it something else? And how will Christ come as a thief in the night when he's supposed to come IN clouds (what's a cloud?) and every eye will see him? These are mysteries but the scriptures answer these questions if you will understand. If you think natural/physical you won't get it.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:51:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 4:35:46 PM EDT by Bladeswitcher]

Originally Posted By rick458:
Luke 17 34 "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; One will be taken the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; One will be taken and the other left" NIV

Mark 13 the whole chapter.

Mathew 24 the whole chapter.

It will be a very real thing, the Rapture, The Tribulation, the Final Battle it is all in the New Testament
just read it and you will see




Interesting . . . In Matthew 24 it says:

" 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."


Maybe you can clear something up for me . . . if I'm reading this correctly, Jesus says that the people who did NOT get in the boat were taken away ("knew not until the flood came, and took them all away"). He means they were killed, right? Only eight souls were saved, right (1Pet 3:20)? So, in this case, "took away" means killed. But I thought the idea of the rapture was that the people who were saved were going to be "taken away." I guess it could be a confusion of words but you referred to this chapter and Jesus does say that at the coming of Christ it's going to be like at the days of Noah . . .

Is it possible that the flood that comes at the "appearing" of Christ (i.e. Christos, an annointed depth of spirit) is simply SPIRIT (Joh 7:38-39 equates spirit with water) . Those that get lifted up by the spirit are saved (see 1Pet 3:20 again) while those who reject the deeper spirit — who don't get in the boat, as it were — will drown. In other words, judgement happens based on what we do when presented with deeper word and spirit . . . just a thought . . .
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