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Posted: 1/2/2006 3:08:15 PM EDT
Assume that you are born in the USA to god-fearing Christians. You end up a good, honest person and a Baptist. You are sure that your God is the true God. You know that all muslims will go to hell.

Now, assume that instead of being born in the USA you are born in Pakistan to god-fearing muslims. You end up as a good, honest person and a muslim. You are sure your God is the true God. You know all christians will go to hell.

From a Christian perspective, how do you explain the latter assumption? Couldn't you just as easily been born as such? Would you agree that your religion is decided primarily by your upbringing?

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:16:31 PM EDT
Jesus clearly states that those who hear His message and reject it are doomed to Hell.

But I do not recall at this time what He says about those who do NOT hear His message, however I assume there is an exemtion of some sort since they did not have the chance to hear of jesus.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:20:28 PM EDT
You, as a Christian, are aware of Islam and reject it.

I propose that most muslims are aware of Christianity and reject it.


Would you agree that your religion is decided primarily by your upbringing?


Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:21:56 PM EDT
I reject Islam because it is a false religion.

I am what I am because I studied my religion.

Otherwise I would be just a lemming.

What world religions hve you studied?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:34:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:

Would you agree that your religion is decided primarily by your upbringing?





Yes, but I also believe the Holy Spirit can touch those who were born into other religions and save them. Maybe illogical, and maybe not entirely doctrinal, but that's the way I see it.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:42:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 4:53:20 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
***Deleted<va-gunnut>***
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:08:48 PM EDT
How?

Cuz my God can beat up your God.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:53:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:57:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 4:59:49 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:
Would you agree that your religion is decided primarily by your upbringing?




NO
I was raised in a family of Atheists. Upbringing had nothing to do with my religion. Also I do not believe all Muslims go to Hell. I am sure God will call out His elect from among them just as He does other faiths and walks of life. Like me. Who am I to say that a Muslim canot hear the gospel and be saved?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:58:40 PM EDT
Becaquse I've felt Him.

I wish I could give a better answer, but there it is. Those who have also been blessed by the feeling will know what I mean.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:40:06 PM EDT
I have Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist and Shinto acquaintances. I knew Okinawans who worshipped their ancestors. I hired a "witch doctor" once in Zimbabwe to teach me things. (Before anyone asks, I was mostly interested in the uses of plants.) I've been to several other African countries and Haiti, and seen how they mix Christianity with Voodoo and native religions. I've been told by Catholics, Baptists and Mormons that they and only they will go to heaven.

Bottom line: All the religions I've come in contact with, and all the religions I've read about, are short on facts and logic, and big on obedience and offerings. In other words, they are methods of controlling people and exacting tribute. Throughout history and undoubtedly before history, claiming to be a god has been a path to power. If you can't pull off being a god, then claiming to represent him/her/they is the next best thing.

And, the protestations of previous posters notwithstanding, your culture determines your religion. If you were raised in Ireland, you're probably Catholic. If Pakistan, probably Moslem, and so on.

On the other hand, if you're educated, well-travelled and able to think independently, there's probably going to be at least a hint of agnosticism in you.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:52:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
I have Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist and Shinto acquaintances. I knew Okinawans who worshipped their ancestors. I hired a "witch doctor" once in Zimbabwe to teach me things. (Before anyone asks, I was mostly interested in the uses of plants.) I've been to several other African countries and Haiti, and seen how they mix Christianity with Voodoo and native religions. I've been told by Catholics, Baptists and Mormons that they and only they will go to heaven.

Bottom line: All the religions I've come in contact with, and all the religions I've read about, are short on facts and logic, and big on obedience and offerings. In other words, they are methods of controlling people and exacting tribute. Throughout history and undoubtedly before history, claiming to be a god has been a path to power. If you can't pull off being a god, then claiming to represent him/her/they is the next best thing.

And, the protestations of previous posters notwithstanding, your culture determines your religion. If you were raised in Ireland, you're probably Catholic. If Pakistan, probably Moslem, and so on.

On the other hand, if you're educated, well-travelled and able to think independently, there's probably going to be at least a hint of agnosticism in you.




So only the really smart people, like you, have it all figured out. wow
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:55:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
I've been told by Catholics, Baptists and Mormons that they and only they will go to heaven.



That's interesting cuz members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe exactly the opposite. What "Mormon" were you talking to? Oh.. that one? Well ignore that guy. We don't believe that.

In all seriousness, I will have to side w/ this statement.


Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Because I've felt Him.

I wish I could give a better answer, but there it is. Those who have also been blessed by the feeling will know what I mean.


Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:02:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MormonComputerZ:
That's interesting cuz members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe exactly the opposite. What "Mormon" were you talking to? Oh.. that one? Well ignore that guy. We don't believe that.



I invited the ones who knocked on my door in. We had a long, pleasant conversation. Then they came back, twice. Nice kids. Anyway, they were very clear that one MUST be baptized in the Mormon church, even if you've been baptized elsewhere before. (To keep it simple, I'm leaving out the ancestor after-the-fact baptism bit.)
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:18:53 PM EDT
I define Divinity as the summation of all existence without regard to time. That covers just about everything. I don't know everything, but everything that exists, has ever existed or will ever exist, without exception, is part of Divinity. Since nothing else can exist outside of existence without regard to time, I must have discovered the One True God even if I don't know everything about that Deity. Insofar as persons of any other proclaimed faith recognize this, they are on the right track whether they know it or not.

Given that nobody knows everything, there will always be differences of opinion for all are ignorant in the final analysis.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:46:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 6:49:48 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By Rodent:

And, the protestations of previous posters notwithstanding, your culture determines your religion. If you were raised in Ireland, you're probably Catholic. If Pakistan, probably Moslem, and so on.

.



For most of those people thier religion is nothing more than family tradition. Many do not even believe their own religions.

I know Catholics who are pretty much Atheists, Jews who are the same and Baptists, etc... In many cases a persons religion is more of a cultural tradition vs an actual spiritual one.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:09:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 7:10:47 PM EDT by Interceptor_Knight]
Christians Muslims and Jews all appear on the outside to worship the same God who revealed himself as recorded in the Old Testament. The problem is that only Christians recognize Jesus Christ as God. Jews refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament writings. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet but not God.
Christians are insulted by having Jews and Muslims call those who wrote of Jesus a liar, and Muslims are insulted by having Jews and Christians tell them that Muhammad had a false message.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:19:31 AM EDT
Here is Rodents hook:


On the other hand, if you're educated, well-travelled and able to think independently, there's probably going to be at least a hint of agnosticism in you.



I have not one agnostic bone in my body.

I'll see if others give you a pass on the rest of your 1st post....
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:05:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Christians Muslims

<snip>
.



No such thing
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:19:05 AM EDT
I think he's trying to say that if you're "educated" then you may realize you don't have it all figured out.
You guys may all take this the wrong way, but stupid people follow blindly, smart people ask questions. From what I've read here, you guys are smart, you've asked questions and found answers that satisfy you. There, maybe that'll keep you from flaming me.

Personally, I'm in agreement with the original poster, I think. It seems fairly ridiculous and pompous to say that your religion(belief system if you prefer) is correct and everyone elses is wrong.
Even if you say you've felt God's presence, who's to say that Jews haven't?


Originally Posted By walttx:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
On the other hand, if you're educated, well-travelled and able to think independently, there's probably going to be at least a hint of agnosticism in you.




So only the really smart people, like you, have it all figured out. wow

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:48:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Christians Muslims

<snip>
.



No such thing



Christians, Muslims, and Jews....

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:18:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JimTh:
I think he's trying to say that if you're "educated" then you may realize you don't have it all figured out.
You guys may all take this the wrong way, but stupid people follow blindly, smart people ask questions. From what I've read here, you guys are smart, you've asked questions and found answers that satisfy you. There, maybe that'll keep you from flaming me.

Personally, I'm in agreement with the original poster, I think. It seems fairly ridiculous and pompous to say that your religion(belief system if you prefer) is correct and everyone elses is wrong.
Even if you say you've felt God's presence, who's to say that Jews haven't?


Originally Posted By walttx:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
On the other hand, if you're educated, well-travelled and able to think independently, there's probably going to be at least a hint of agnosticism in you.




So only the really smart people, like you, have it all figured out. wow




I know what you and rodent are saying,
but are saying that every Christian is to stupid to question it ?
if you are satisfied believing what you do, so be it. It just seems like the athiest and agnostics here, want to act like you have some kind of intellectual superiority over believers.



Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:46:50 AM EDT
I'm not claiming intellectual superiority over anybody (in this discussion ).
I'm not sure what you are referring to with "it" in your second line.
But doesn't stuff like this make you wonder? Or do you just blow it off as nonsense?


Originally Posted By walttx:
I know what you and rodent are saying,
but are saying that every Christian is to stupid to question it ?
if you are satisfied believing what you do, so be it. It just seems like the athiest and agnostics here, want to act like you have some kind of intellectual superiority over believers.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:23:49 PM EDT
[

Originally Posted By JimTh:
I'm not claiming intellectual superiority over anybody (in this discussion ).



ok


I'm not sure what you are referring to with "it" in your second line.

It is the existance of God


But doesn't stuff like this make you wonder?


What stuff, The existance of God?



Or do you just blow it off as nonsense?


not at all, these are valid questions,
But there is no way some questions can be answered,

I was raised a Catholic , had to go thru all the required ceromonies, but i did not really know what was going on. I was to busy goofing off.

I accepted Christ in 1985, i wasnt looking for Him either. He reached out to me.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:27:55 PM EDT
Look at who /what these other religions believe. Some worship cows, some beiliev that if you lead a good enough life that in your next life you will be a cow....come on if you have doubts about what you believe then your screwed up.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:36:46 PM EDT
Well I guess I have to give a politically correct answer seeing as this is a politically correct world and we are not allowed to offend anyone..........mmmmmmmmmmmmm..........My God is the True god cause he can throw a voodoo curse on your god.......then your ALL cursed.....

GhostCat
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:34:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:
Assume that you are born in the USA to god-fearing Christians. You end up a good, honest person and a Baptist. You are sure that your God is the true God. You know that all muslims will go to hell.

Now, assume that instead of being born in the USA you are born in Pakistan to god-fearing muslims. You end up as a good, honest person and a muslim. You are sure your God is the true God. You know all christians will go to hell.

From a Christian perspective, how do you explain the latter assumption? Couldn't you just as easily been born as such? Would you agree that your religion is decided primarily by your upbringing?




This question is partially answered in the Book of Mormon, in Moroni 8:

[22] For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing --

there is no need to worry about people that live or die without the whole truth. The gospel is infinite and eternal, and our Heavenly Father's plan includes everybody that has ever lived. He will not leave anyone out simply because of the circumstances of birth. There are no mistakes or accidents in His plan.

There is danger hidden in the question posed. It is easy for some to use the logic presented as a way of telling themselves that there is no absolute truth. This is a topic over which there has been much discussion in this forum, and I don't raise it to debate that issue specifically. It is only to point out that there are numerous ways to talk yourself out of belief in God, all of which are authored by the only one who strives to make all men believe that He can't exist.

-grommet
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:42:43 AM EDT
The question is moot. Your religion will primarily be determined the geographical location and culture that you are raised unless you are converted by acquiring belief in another religion.

Everyone should be required to take the class "Comparative Religions" in high school so they realize how many religions there are, what the basic tenents are of each, and learn that you adopt what you are taught by others whether that be the dominant religion of your location or by learning of and adopting a different religion, just like language. You learn what is spoken where you are, you may learn a different language.

The only exception that I can think of is if one has a real or perceived "religious experience", otherwise you are going to believe what other people relay to you personally or through media.

Me? I don't trust people to be accurate and honest, especially through such a long period of time. Things tend to get altered and skewed. Old records are not always reliable.

I'll know who my true god(s) is if and when I meet it, I cannot take the word of my fellow man in blind trust or faith. If I lead what I think is a good life, I don't think I'll have a problem if and when that happens, and it's all I can be expected to do.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 4:10:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 6:06:22 AM EDT by Rodent]

Originally Posted By RUSSIANCATKILLA:
Look at who /what these other religions believe. Some worship cows, some beiliev that if you lead a good enough life that in your next life you will be a cow....come on if you have doubts about what you believe then your screwed up.



+1.

Those other religions accept their beliefs with little or no evidence, or even in spite of contrary evidence, and without studying competing views. I think they accept their religious beliefs not because they are intellectually compelling, but because they are emotionally comforting.

It's amazing what those religions lead people to believe - that they have past and future lives, Mount Olympus is the home of the Gods, the world is on the back of a turtle, northern lights are warriors being escorted to Valhalla, virgins can be impregnated, there will be three winters with no summers before the Doom of the Gods, people originated in the Grand Canyon, dead people go to an invisible place and live forever, an enormous beaver created the continents, white giants in the north cause winter, the whole world flooded and all the animals floated around on a boat, etc.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:00:46 AM EDT
When I graduated high school I had travelled all of europe and recieved an education from a highly accredited private institution. All I know is I prayed to 'God' to reveal himself to me and what I discovered was Jesus. I cant offer any other explanation as to how I know my God is the real God other than this.

p.s. God and Allah are very different
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:03:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 6:11:54 AM EDT by Rodent]

Originally Posted By McKenzie:
...God and Allah are very different



"Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God".
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:13:27 PM EDT
Becauase My god is the true god, How do i know this? Because he has answered my prayers way more times than i can list here, in circumstances where i had done all i could and things were going badly, sometimes very badly and it all turned around like some divine being hit a switch and the dogs of hell ran away. Thats how i know!!!

BTW, I never said Allah is a False god, I just said Islam is a false belief system!!

Allah is after all just their name for the God of Abraham, just as for the Jews it's Jah Weh(Pronounced YAW-WAY) and for us it's God.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:17:03 PM EDT
Becauase My god is the true god, How do i know this? Because he has answered my prayers way more times than i can list here, in circumstances where i had done all i could and things were going badly, sometimes very badly and it all turned around like some divine being hit a switch and the dogs of hell ran away. Thats how i know!!!

BTW, I never said Allah is a False god, I just said Islam is a false belief system!!

Allah is after all just their name for the God of Abraham, just as for the Jews it's Jah Weh(Pronounced YAW-WAY) and for us it's God.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:37:34 AM EDT

Would you agree that your religion is decided primarily by your upbringing?



Overwhelmingly, yes. Some people come to it without being raised that way but most have the beliefs impregnated in their minds as youth and then embrace them as truth and strengthen their belief as they grow older. Some people, on the other hand, take issue with what their taught and come to the belief that what they've been taught is wrong or makes no sense. Once in a while people actually convert, this usually is brought on by some societal pressure like marrying a Catholic or a Jew.

As for God, Christianity and Islam are both based on the Judaic God with different ideas about his Messiah and Prophet.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:56:26 AM EDT
Oh, the divisiveness!

I’m sure I’ll be flamed for this, however, what scholarly function is served by a religious discussion of who has the true faith in the true god if finger pointing is the best that is proffered?

Most, if not all, religions have at their core a religious ethos.

I personally can’t justify a blame-game simply because someone approaches their god in a different manner than I, for it’s totally irrelevant. Actions, it’s said, speak louder than words. So, too, I believe actions speak louder than individual faith communities. Better would we be served should we concentrate more on a respect of all people rather than to categorize those apparent differences for which some would argue that lives, if not souls, be consecrated to hell. Worse yet, speak and act that way. That is just so self-serving.

For many, that may help their self-esteem, though why, and at what cost?

Ed
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:04:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 10:04:25 AM EDT by DarkHalf]
Interesting how many non-believers answered this thread,

makes me wonder what they are searching for.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:09:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
Interesting how many non-believers answered this thread,

makes me wonder what they are searching for.




___

Me?

I'm a believer true! True to my Jewish faith, yet saddened at how easilly by writ people would easilly do unto each other by hand.

Ed
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:18:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
Interesting how many non-believers answered this thread,

makes me wonder what they are searching for.




___

Me?

I'm a believer true! True to my Jewish faith, yet saddened at how easilly by writ people would easilly do unto each other by hand.

Ed



Not you
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:19:41 AM EDT
Thanks, friend!


Ed
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:15:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 12:16:45 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
Interesting how many non-believers answered this thread,

makes me wonder what they are searching for.




I think I am the only non-believer who posted and it was to correct your misunderstanding of someone's lack of punctuation.

Rodent IIRC is a hard agnostic and not an atheist. Maybe he will clarify.

I'm curious as to who the other non-believers are? I didn't count Justatxguy because he was the poster and it seems like a good question for a non-believer (if in fact he is a non-believer)

btw, I'm in search of a single asian or spanish female, age 21 to 28
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:54:48 PM EDT
I consider myself an agnostic.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 1:01:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 1:02:05 PM EDT by 1GUNRUNNER]
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 1:50:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 2:09:11 PM EDT by danpass]

Originally Posted By texashark:

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:

Would you agree that your religion is decided primarily by your upbringing?





Yes, but I also believe the Holy Spirit can touch those who were born into other religions and save them. Maybe illogical, and maybe not entirely doctrinal, but that's the way I see it.



Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Becaquse I've felt Him.

I wish I could give a better answer, but there it is. Those who have also been blessed by the feeling will know what I mean.



+1

God brought this former atheist to Jesus (not Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc)
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 2:05:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 2:09:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By danpass:
+1

God brought this former atheist to Jesus (not Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc)



Thank god you don't live in Iraq, huh?



Praise Jesus !


Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:03:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By RUSSIANCATKILLA:
Look at who /what these other religions believe. Some worship cows, some beiliev that if you lead a good enough life that in your next life you will be a cow....come on if you have doubts about what you believe then your screwed up.



+1.

Those other religions accept their beliefs with little or no evidence, or even in spite of contrary evidence, and without studying competing views. I think they accept their religious beliefs not because they are intellectually compelling, but because they are emotionally comforting.


Emotionally comforting? Few, if any, are actually comforting. Most can be downright scary depending on the interpretation.

What you're *still* missing is the psychological impact these stories are designed to have.

Have you ever been moved to emotion by some piece of artwork, be it a painting or sculpture or a movie? I don't mean simply thinking it's beautiful, or good, or being entertained by it, but actually being affected by it.

These particular stories might not reach inside your mind and grab a hold of that part which boils quietly below the surface, but I'm willing to bet that there is some story, some image that does. Some idea which inspires you to hope and to dream and to aspire to something greater. That which you call "religious" beliefs are no different and are meant to do nothing different. *scratching my head* Some people just take it a bit too far. Let them go. You know better.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:13:35 PM EDT
I think another interesting aspect of religion is that in trying so hard to cleanse themselves of earthly desires, they began to obsessively covet the rewards of the afterlife. Even in serving others through religious motivations, one is still selfishly trying to attain 'eternal salvation'. If the god is so wonderful why does he condemn you to a pleasureless life of servitude and expect gratitude? It was his own human-like emotions (loneliness) that drove him to selfishly create man according to the Bible. He experiences anger, rage, happiness, etc and exacts both retribution and reward. It puzzles me to hear those who call themselves devout to speak of god always as a perfect being, when the Bible clearly contradicts this.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:29:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 9:32:57 PM EDT by AK_Mike]
Sorry to go OT but this is a quickie question for Christians, I'm genuinely curious (and ignorant). If your particular branch/sect (or is it all) believes that those who aren't Christians, even if it's just through ignorance (not knowing about Christianity) are going to hell, did all the people that were around before Christianity became popular and didn't get the message (like before Jesus) went straight to hell?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:31:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AK_Mike:
Sorry to go OT but this is a quickie question for Christians, I'm genuinely curious (and ignorant). If your particular branch/sect (or is it all) believes that those who aren't Christians, even if it's just through ignorance (not knowing about Christianity) are going to hell, do all the people that were around before Christianity became popular and didn't get the message (like before Jesus) went straight to hell?



not all of them do believe this. Some believe that before the work is done, all will have had a chance to hear and accept or reject the gospel in its fulness.

there are no mistakes or accidents in His plan. also no unfairness.

there will be no excuses.

-grommet
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:46:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:11:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By McKenzie:
...God and Allah are very different


"Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God".


Rodent,

From a "dictionary" standpoint, you're right. The "right/best" answer is not easy, and I don't have the brainpower to explain it right now (been up too long; baby's finally sleeping).

I'll hunt around for a good (and short) article I read not too long ago. It was really, really good. I wasn't even in the mood to read anything like that, and "comparative religions" stuff almost always piques my interest (same reason I harvested this thread from Active Topics).
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