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Posted: 12/24/2005 10:27:10 AM EDT
Hi. First post in the Religion Forum. If this is the wrong forum, I'll move it to GD. I figured Id get a better response here. Although I was raised as a Christian, we werent frequent Churchgoers. Maybe this explains my lack of knowledge.
I'm struggling to understand what the conflict is between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I dont know much about Religious History, and I can only surmise that it stems from differences between Jews and Arabs.
I'd like the whole story. Most places I've tried to find out just give me the generic "There has always been a conflict between Jews and Arabs." I'd like to now the hows and whys.

Also, I dont understand how the United States ties into this mess. The Arabs seem to hold some resentment because the US helps the Israelis. Why do we support Israel so much?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:32:43 AM EDT
It goes way back to Abraham, when he took Sarahs handmaid and got her pregnet, then turned around and got his wife Sahara pregnet.

There was constant jealousy and tension between the 2 woman about the kid, Issac and Esau. With Esau being the first bron of Abraham, by Sarhas handmaid as Esaus mother.

Abraham had to send Esau and his mother away, to keep the peace in the tribe, he then gave the birthrite of the eldest child to hes second born son Issac.

Esau became the father of the Arab nations that we know today, while Issac went on to father the tribes of Isreal.

So basicly we have a family fued that has gone on for thousands of years.


Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:35:35 AM EDT
And its escalated to where they are now? Nice.

So what you're saying is that essentially, the Jews and Arabs are born from the same people, and this is nothing more than sibling rivalry?

How did the US get involved in this?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:43:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
And its escalated to where they are now? Nice.

So what you're saying is that essentially, the Jews and Arabs are born from the same people, and this is nothing more than sibling rivalry?

How did the US get involved in this?




Yes..

Yes...

We try to be the good guys to everyone...most of the time we get the shaft in return.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 12:00:33 PM EDT
The Jews were scattered out of Israel more than 1000 years ago, to Europe, through out the middle east, etc. Some of them remained in the area of modern day Israel, but not many.

The area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire for several centuries prior to WWI and most of the inhabitants were Muslim Arabs. In the early 1900s a movement began among European Jews to establish a homeland in Palestine, a few thousand Jews moved there.

After WWI the territories of the Ottoman Turks were split up. Modern day Israel and Jordan were ruled by Brirain as TransJordan, some Jews continued to immigrate, but most of the inhabitants remained Arab.

Following WWII and the Holocaust the desire of Jews to re-establish a homeland began to escalate. Jews immigrated to Palestine despite to Brits attempting to stop it. Israeli Jews conducted a campaign of terror in Palestine against the British and anti-Jewish Arabs. There were som famous attacks including a huge Hotel bombing.

In 1948 the British relented to international pressure and partitioned TransJordan into Arab Jordan and Jewish Israel. Many Arabs remained in Israel. The Arab countries immediately vowed the destruction of Israel.

Over the years most of the large number of Jews were expelled from the Arab countries, but the Arab states for the most part would not accept the Arab refugess from Israel. The so called Paestinians are the result.

The conflict is not yet resolved.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:29:30 PM EDT
Small clarification - it was Esau's choice to give up his birthright. He traded it for a bowl of pottage. (Not sure what pottage is, something I guess they ate in those days. )

To understand this, read the Book of Genesis. This tells how the whole thing began. Pay special attention to the covenant made by Jehovah with Abraham, then later his son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob. It was that through their seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Also that their seed would be as numerous as the sands of the sea.

The primary way that this has happened is that Christ is a descendant of Abraham. Because of the atonement, all can repent and be forgiven for sin. Also because of the atonement, day to day life is easier and better, more abundant, because there is reason for hope.

After reading Genesis, read the Book of Mormon. It explains the Abrahamic covenant from beginning to end, and shows how in the last days the covenant is being fulfilled. It explains how the house of Israel will be restored as it once was, how the people will be returned to their land (written and published 120 years before Israeli statehood was recognized, actually predicted hundreds of years before by ancient prophets). The Book of Mormon also explians in great detail the how and why of most of the political situations now taking place in the world, specifically how and why terrorism is being used as a political and social strategy today. It brings into great relief the situation taking place now between the Jews and the Palestinians, and it points out the source of the different kinds of actions we see playing out continually.

Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

-grommet
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:59:16 AM EDT
Thanks for the insight.
I guess I have some reading to do.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:44:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 5:39:47 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:37:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:


BTW, regarding the biblical part, Abraham had 2 sons, Isaac and Ishmael(not Esau). Esau was Jacob's brother(both were sons of Isaac), and it was between those two where the birthright thing happened. The issue with the Muslims is that they think that it was Ishmael who was brought to the sacrificial rock by Abraham, and not Issac(as the bible says). So the Muslims think that they are entitled to all the blessings that the Jews claim. because the Arabs are descended from Ishmael and they think Ishmael was the (intended)sacrificial son. Of course, we know from the Bible that Isaac was not sacrificed(saved at the last minute by God). Isaac and Ishmael both got significant blessings, but Isaac and his descendants got the bigger blessing. Both the lines of the two sons received large blessings and both lines have prospered quite a bit since then. Of course, Isaac's lineage prospered more overall, primarily the ones descended from his son Jacob/Israel.






Yup, I stand corrected, Thanks..
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 8:51:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:

Originally Posted By twl:


BTW, regarding the biblical part, Abraham had 8 sons, Isaac and Ishmael(not Esau). Esau was Jacob's brother(both were sons of Isaac), and it was between those two where the birthright thing happened. The issue with the Muslims is that they think that it was Ishmael who was brought to the sacrificial rock by Abraham, and not Issac(as the bible says). So the Muslims think that they are entitled to all the blessings that the Jews claim. because the Arabs are descended from Ishmael and they think Ishmael was the (intended)sacrificial son. Of course, we know from the Bible that Isaac was not sacrificed(saved at the last minute by God). Isaac and Ishmael both got significant blessings, but Isaac and his descendants got the bigger blessing. Both the lines of the two sons received large blessings and both lines have prospered quite a bit since then. Of course, Isaac's lineage prospered more overall, primarily the ones descended from his son Jacob/Israel.






Yup, I stand corrected, Thanks..



Fixed it for you.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 1:14:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 1:16:35 PM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:05:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:
It goes way back to Abraham, when he took Sarahs handmaid and got her pregnet, then turned around and got his wife Sahara pregnet.

There was constant jealousy and tension between the 2 woman about the kid, Issac and Esau. With Esau being the first bron of Abraham, by Sarhas handmaid as Esaus mother.

Abraham had to send Esau and his mother away, to keep the peace in the tribe, he then gave the birthrite of the eldest child to hes second born son Issac.

Esau became the father of the Arab nations that we know today, while Issac went on to father the tribes of Isreal.

So basicly we have a family fued that has gone on for thousands of years.





___

This comment is not true, and is historically false.

To believe "It goes way back to Abraham, when he took Sarahs handmaid and got her pregnet, then turned around and got his wife Sahara pregnent." is to buy-in to ignorance born of evangalism, or some similar horse-hockey while denying recent history.

During the height of Islam in the 12th century, Jews lived and thrived under Moslem rule...there were, of course, limitations placed upon Jews, though nothing as brutal as experienced by those Jews living in Christian lands.

The Christian crusades changed the landscape of the region by introducing religious intollerance. Not only did the crusades hack their way through Jewish communities on their way to Jerusalem, but once there, defined ignorance and intolleration.

It wasn't until the second wave of Jewish immigrants to then Palestine during the 1920's that began what could only historically and resonably be thought of as the beginning of tension between Jews and Muslims. Jews came to the land, payed for their property, and began to re-build and repair the land. As the land became fertile again for the first time in centuries was when some Arabs began to attack the first Zionist settlements. The battle lines were then sharply drawn in 1937 when the British-sponsored Peel Commission proposed the partition of then Palestine into two nations, one Arab, the other Jewish.

Then, in 1938, George Antonius, who was one of the most conciliatory Arab intellectuals of his generation, denounced the Peel Commission’s plan, ensuring from then to date the dividing line between even between moderates.

Since then, and clearly established within the timeframe of the 1930’s, there has been no middle ground between moderates…not then, and not now, and especially after the State of Israel was proclaimed in 1948.

Not thousands of years of animosity...the historical record would dismiss that concept out of hand, and the Crusades never helped much either by introducing religious intollerance into the region.

Far, far more modern history is the source for understanding the root problems faced in the region.


Ed
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:24:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 9:26:51 PM EDT by Dave_A]
While it is true that the Arabs and Jews both believe they have a common anscestor in Abraham, it was Isaac (son of Sarah) and Ishmael (sone of the servant, Hagar (IIRC)) - not Esau, he was born later...

We can skip thru the rest and fast-forward then to Roman times, when the term 'Palestine' was created by the Romans as a final insult to the Jews following a failed revolt & such - the reference is to the Jewish historical nemisis -> 'Philistine' ...

However, for the purposes of the modern conflict, no one involved really traces it back that far except for the hard-core extremists on both sides... What it boils down to is that both sides believe they are entitled to the same land (weather by inheritance, divine right, or whateveR), and both are willing to die for it... Nothing more, nothing less...
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:39:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:
It goes way back to Abraham, when he took Sarahs handmaid and got her pregnet, then turned around and got his wife Sahara pregnet.

There was constant jealousy and tension between the 2 woman about the kid, Issac and Esau. With Esau being the first bron of Abraham, by Sarhas handmaid as Esaus mother.






It's Issac and Ishmael dude........

Esau's brother was Jacob.....
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:22:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:

Originally Posted By 1shott:
It goes way back to Abraham, when he took Sarahs handmaid and got her pregnet, then turned around and got his wife Sahara pregnet.

There was constant jealousy and tension between the 2 woman about the kid, Issac and Esau. With Esau being the first bron of Abraham, by Sarhas handmaid as Esaus mother.






It's Issac and Ishmael dude........

Esau's brother was Jacob.....




I know I know, I have allready been reminded, read the thread. Sheesh man I aint perfect.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:02:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
While it is true that the Arabs and Jews both believe they have a common anscestor in Abraham, it was Isaac (son of Sarah) and Ishmael (sone of the servant, Hagar (IIRC)) - not Esau, he was born later...

We can skip thru the rest and fast-forward then to Roman times, when the term 'Palestine' was created by the Romans as a final insult to the Jews following a failed revolt & such - the reference is to the Jewish historical nemisis -> 'Philistine' ...

However, for the purposes of the modern conflict, no one involved really traces it back that far except for the hard-core extremists on both sides... What it boils down to is that both sides believe they are entitled to the same land (weather by inheritance, divine right, or whateveR), and both are willing to die for it... Nothing more, nothing less...



In Arabic, Palestine is pronounced as "philistine"
Interesting stuff.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:14:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
Hi. First post in the Religion Forum. If this is the wrong forum, I'll move it to GD. I figured Id get a better response here. Although I was raised as a Christian, we werent frequent Churchgoers. Maybe this explains my lack of knowledge.
I'm struggling to understand what the conflict is between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I dont know much about Religious History, and I can only surmise that it stems from differences between Jews and Arabs.
I'd like the whole story. Most places I've tried to find out just give me the generic "There has always been a conflict between Jews and Arabs." I'd like to now the hows and whys.

Also, I dont understand how the United States ties into this mess. The Arabs seem to hold some resentment because the US helps the Israelis. Why do we support Israel so much?



Why? Because it has already been written that is how it will be.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:01:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubblehead597:

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
Hi. First post in the Religion Forum. If this is the wrong forum, I'll move it to GD. I figured Id get a better response here. Although I was raised as a Christian, we werent frequent Churchgoers. Maybe this explains my lack of knowledge.
I'm struggling to understand what the conflict is between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I dont know much about Religious History, and I can only surmise that it stems from differences between Jews and Arabs.
I'd like the whole story. Most places I've tried to find out just give me the generic "There has always been a conflict between Jews and Arabs." I'd like to now the hows and whys.

Also, I dont understand how the United States ties into this mess. The Arabs seem to hold some resentment because the US helps the Israelis. Why do we support Israel so much?



Why? Because it has already been written that is how it will be.



Actually, the USA supports just about everyone in the region. Yes, the USA gives aid to Israel. Yes, the USA also gives aid to just about all of its neighbors.

Egypt, for example, gets about $2 billion per year from the US, some of it is used to purchase US-made M1 Abram tanks. The USA also gives significant moneys to the Palestinian govt. Do you think Jordan's govt has been so friendly to the USA just because they feel like it?

You might ask, "why then are the muslim populations of that region so anti-USA?" The answers to that question requires an understanding of the people and governments of the region.

First, a "Middle Ages -to-modern times" bit of info:
The Ottoman Empire for centuries controlled trade routes between Europe and Asia. The Ottomans raked in "bucks ton" from those routes and that was one of the primary reasons the Ottomans became such a big world player for so long. Also, and important to know, it was the Ottomans who first realized and embraced the potential of gunpowder and firearms from China. Naturally this technology moved westward and it was primarily through the Ottomans that Europe got this technology.

At the time, the Ottoman Empire was primarily a secular state. However, as the alternate water trade routes were discovered and developed, the Ottoman's main cash cow died. The Muslim populations, instead of analyzing the economic problem and looking for new developments/initiatives to overcome it, instead looked to religion for the answer. The Muslims felt that they were being punished by Allah for not being zealous enough in their worship. Thus, modern extremist Islam is slowly but surely born. Of course, extremism didn't solve their problems and by WWI the remains of the Ottoman Empire were carved up by Europe.

So by the early 1900's you now have a muslim population that is more "zealous" and pissed off/jealous at their western "Christian" neighbors who are becoming more powerful each year. This jealousy intensifies each passing day.

In an ironic turn of events the remnants of the Ottoman empire, which at one time embraced science and exported technology to Europe, now suppresses or rejects the flow of information because it comes from "the West".


The creation of Israel has been mentioned so I won't touch upon it except to mention that there is some serious jealousy at play there too because this newly created Jewish state kicked the butts of all of its neighbors (multiple times) when they tried to eradicate it.


Now I'll address the fact that almost all of the Muslim countries in the region are controlled by catastrophically corrupt governments. For example, the US gives $2 Billion a year in aid to Egypt, but the common man in Egypt sees none of that aid because it's all used to strengthen Egypt's armed forces. In Saudi Arabia the common man struggles to avoid starvation while the Saud family hordes oil revenues and literally live like sultans. Etc.

In short, most middle eastern Muslims hate their own governments. Their governments know this, and have engaged in a massive campaign of distraction and redirection of blame. To keep their people from mass rebellion, the middle eastern leaders constantly use their state-run or state-subsidised media outlets to blame Israel, the USA, and Christians in general for all of their problems. By redirecting public discontent towards the Jews and Christians, middle eastern leaders avoid being responsible for their own corruption.

There are the majority of the reason we have so much trouble in that region today.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:21:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 9:23:35 AM EDT by fadedsun]

Originally Posted By grommet:
Small clarification - it was Esau's choice to give up his birthright. He traded it for a bowl of pottage. (Not sure what pottage is, something I guess they ate in those days. )

To understand this, read the Book of Genesis. This tells how the whole thing began. Pay special attention to the covenant made by Jehovah with Abraham, then later his son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob. It was that through their seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Also that their seed would be as numerous as the sands of the sea.

The primary way that this has happened is that Christ is a descendant of Abraham. Because of the atonement, all can repent and be forgiven for sin. Also because of the atonement, day to day life is easier and better, more abundant, because there is reason for hope.

After reading Genesis, read the Book of Mormon. It explains the Abrahamic covenant from beginning to end, and shows how in the last days the covenant is being fulfilled. It explains how the house of Israel will be restored as it once was, how the people will be returned to their land (written and published 120 years before Israeli statehood was recognized, actually predicted hundreds of years before by ancient prophets). The Book of Mormon also explians in great detail the how and why of most of the political situations now taking place in the world, specifically how and why terrorism is being used as a political and social strategy today. It brings into great relief the situation taking place now between the Jews and the Palestinians, and it points out the source of the different kinds of actions we see playing out continually.

Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

-grommet



Pottage was a bowl of soup, most likely made from vegatables.

Bible class is great.

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:12:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By Bubblehead597:

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
Hi. First post in the Religion Forum. If this is the wrong forum, I'll move it to GD. I figured Id get a better response here. Although I was raised as a Christian, we werent frequent Churchgoers. Maybe this explains my lack of knowledge.
I'm struggling to understand what the conflict is between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I dont know much about Religious History, and I can only surmise that it stems from differences between Jews and Arabs.
I'd like the whole story. Most places I've tried to find out just give me the generic "There has always been a conflict between Jews and Arabs." I'd like to now the hows and whys.

Also, I dont understand how the United States ties into this mess. The Arabs seem to hold some resentment because the US helps the Israelis. Why do we support Israel so much?



Why? Because it has already been written that is how it will be.



Actually, the USA supports just about everyone in the region. Yes, the USA gives aid to Israel. Yes, the USA also gives aid to just about all of its neighbors.

Egypt, for example, gets about $2 billion per year from the US, some of it is used to purchase US-made M1 Abram tanks. The USA also gives significant moneys to the Palestinian govt. Do you think Jordan's govt has been so friendly to the USA just because they feel like it?

You might ask, "why then are the muslim populations of that region so anti-USA?" The answers to that question requires an understanding of the people and governments of the region.

First, a "Middle Ages -to-modern times" bit of info:
The Ottoman Empire for centuries controlled trade routes between Europe and Asia. The Ottomans raked in "bucks ton" from those routes and that was one of the primary reasons the Ottomans became such a big world player for so long. Also, and important to know, it was the Ottomans who first realized and embraced the potential of gunpowder and firearms from China. Naturally this technology moved westward and it was primarily through the Ottomans that Europe got this technology.

At the time, the Ottoman Empire was primarily a secular state. However, as the alternate water trade routes were discovered and developed, the Ottoman's main cash cow died. The Muslim populations, instead of analyzing the economic problem and looking for new developments/initiatives to overcome it, instead looked to religion for the answer. The Muslims felt that they were being punished by Allah for not being zealous enough in their worship. Thus, modern extremist Islam is slowly but surely born. Of course, extremism didn't solve their problems and by WWI the remains of the Ottoman Empire were carved up by Europe.

So by the early 1900's you now have a muslim population that is more "zealous" and pissed off/jealous at their western "Christian" neighbors who are becoming more powerful each year. This jealousy intensifies each passing day.

In an ironic turn of events the remnants of the Ottoman empire, which at one time embraced science and exported technology to Europe, now suppresses or rejects the flow of information because it comes from "the West".


The creation of Israel has been mentioned so I won't touch upon it except to mention that there is some serious jealousy at play there too because this newly created Jewish state kicked the butts of all of its neighbors (multiple times) when they tried to eradicate it.


Now I'll address the fact that almost all of the Muslim countries in the region are controlled by catastrophically corrupt governments. For example, the US gives $2 Billion a year in aid to Egypt, but the common man in Egypt sees none of that aid because it's all used to strengthen Egypt's armed forces. In Saudi Arabia the common man struggles to avoid starvation while the Saud family hordes oil revenues and literally live like sultans. Etc.

In short, most middle eastern Muslims hate their own governments. Their governments know this, and have engaged in a massive campaign of distraction and redirection of blame. To keep their people from mass rebellion, the middle eastern leaders constantly use their state-run or state-subsidised media outlets to blame Israel, the USA, and Christians in general for all of their problems. By redirecting public discontent towards the Jews and Christians, middle eastern leaders avoid being responsible for their own corruption.

There are the majority of the reason we have so much trouble in that region today.



Shane, I think you misread what I posted earlier. It is this way because it is already pre-ordained to be so.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:27:51 AM EDT
Bubblehead597,

I agree that a much of this is foretold. I still find it interesting to see the chain of events that led up to it.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:23:56 PM EDT
Well it all started when two sons of Abraham went diffrent ways!!

The one who remained faithful to the word was Isaac and the other Ishmael!

Well Ishmael and his mother had a falling out you see and left the family to create the race now known as Suicide bombers, Terrorist , Al Queda etc.!!
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:44:50 PM EDT
Bush's fault
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:28:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
Well it all started when two sons of Abraham went diffrent ways!!

The one who remained faithful to the word was Isaac and the other Ishmael!

Well Ishmael and his mother had a falling out you see and left the family to create the race now known as Suicide bombers, Terrorist , Al Queda etc.!!



Wow.
Guess you missed the boat on Arab Christians, eh?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:48:05 PM EDT

Abraham had several sons, the first:

Ishmael, born because Sarah (Abrahams wife) wanted a child. Sarah convinced Abraham to sleep with Hagar (the maidservant) thinking she could have a child 'thru' Hagar so to speak, so was born Ishmael.

Ishamel was born in the ordinary way (this part is important)


The second:

Isaac, born as a result of God's promise to Abraham, born directly from Sarah's womb. To repeat, Isaac born as a result of a promise from God.



The first was born out of human desire, the second was born of God's power. The first will never share in the promise (see Genesis 16 and 21)

In summation:

Read Genesis 16 and 21. Here is a snippet:

Gen 16
11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the LORD has heard of your misery.

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers."


The entire Arab nation is descended from a Jew. Islam claims to be descended from Ishmael (Abrahams first son), so its their own problem if they don't like it

The Jewish nation (we'll use the term Israel for simplicity) exists because God says so. Israel wins every war because they are children of a promise of God.

The US is the greatest nation on Earth because God made it that way (thru godly men, the Founding Fathers, the US constitution is utterly unique of all governments that have ever existed)
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:27:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fireguy3:
Well it all started when two sons of Abraham went diffrent ways!!

The one who remained faithful to the word was Isaac and the other Ishmael!

Well Ishmael and his mother had a falling out you see and left the family to create the race now known as Suicide bombers, Terrorist , Al Queda etc.!!



Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:22:07 PM EDT
I would say the problem is somwhere in the area of this to simply it alittle, the jewish population was displaced thousand(s) of years ago. Well like stated before the jewish population moved back. The peak of this was after WW2. The problem wasnt the jewish population moving back into the middle eastern region. The problem was the West basically telling the nation of Palistine (which never officially existed as it was all a British Colony at the end of WW2) that they would no longer have their promised soveriegn nation. The Brits were going to make the area a palistinian nation. When the jews wanted their own homland and were granted it the Palistnians got real pissed.

Both sides have laid claim to the region as both sides originated there. The issue is that since the Jewsish population hasnt been their in the last 1000 years the arabs think it doesnt belong to them. You have to understand that they have lived in the area and had their own "nation" in a sense. When they are finaly going to get their territory the UN basically said "no dice" and game it to the Jewish population. This backing followed by Trumans acceptance of Isreal as a nation dampened relations between the US and the Arab states. The eventual wars and desputes between Isreal and its neighbors as well as the US backing of Isreal puts us into the situation we are in now.

Very simplified but it is around those lines.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:31:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 9:35:50 AM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By bigjross_2002:
I would say the problem is somwhere in the area of this to simply it alittle, the jewish population was displaced thousand(s) of years ago. Well like stated before the jewish population moved back. The peak of this was after WW2. The problem wasnt the jewish population moving back into the middle eastern region. The problem was the West basically telling the nation of Palistine (which never officially existed as it was all a British Colony at the end of WW2) that they would no longer have their promised soveriegn nation. The Brits were going to make the area a palistinian nation. When the jews wanted their own homland and were granted it the Palistnians got real pissed.

Both sides have laid claim to the region as both sides originated there. The issue is that since the Jewsish population hasnt been their in the last 1000 years the arabs think it doesnt belong to them. You have to understand that they have lived in the area and had their own "nation" in a sense. When they are finaly going to get their territory the UN basically said "no dice" and game it to the Jewish population. This backing followed by Trumans acceptance of Isreal as a nation dampened relations between the US and the Arab states. The eventual wars and desputes between Isreal and its neighbors as well as the US backing of Isreal puts us into the situation we are in now.

Very simplified but it is around those lines.




___

Re:

"The issue is that since the Jewsish population hasnt been there in the last 1000 years the arabs think it doesnt belong to them. "

This post is too simplified in that the issue is that since the Jewsish population hasn't been therein the last 1000 years the arabs think it doesnt belong to them.

Land in then-Palestine was purchased by Jewish agencies was leased on the conditions that it be worked only by Jewish labour and that the lease should not be held by non-Jews. In order to purchase land for the resettlement of Jews in their ancient homeland, the Fifth Zionist Congress (1901) created a private charitable organization called the Jewish National Fund (JNF). Before the State of Israel was established in 1948, land purchased by the JNF was not resold but was instead leased out on a long-term basis to create kibbutzim and other forms of Jewish settlement.

Further, there has always been a Jewish population, albeit small, in the area originally called Palestine; this view neglects the fact that there were already an arab and jewish state established in historical Palestine which became Israel and Jordan

Ed



<­BR>

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:04:13 AM EDT
I Blame the UN most of all.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:40:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 11:41:18 AM EDT by MudBug]
aside from all the ancient history, I don't think the modern problems really started until the Jews turned what was an empty wasteland into a productive country.

Here's what Mark Twain said about the area before the Jews moved in.

Mark Twain - 1867

"...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

------------------------------------------------------------

And here's a sense of what most of the Arabs at the time felt about the building of Israel.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dawood Barakat
Editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram

"It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country."
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Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia

The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna'ihi­l­asliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually [to be] an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor.
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Transjordan's King Abdullah

It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping.

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There were many attacks on Jewish settlers in the area pre-ww2 even though the quality of life for 'palestineans' (read immigrants coming in for better jobs and better quality of life) were increased exponentially (mortality rates dropped, average lifespans increased by 20 years) they terrorized the jews, even the arabs couldn't figure it out at the time.

One of the very few places in the middle east a 'Palestinian' can even get a job, or buy food is Israel. They can't do it in Syria, and they have been kicked out of or treated like crap in every country they have tried to inhabit.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:47:56 AM EDT
Let's see, a Desert, the Jews move in andit FLowers...The Grand Mufti Of Jersulaeam hates Jews throws in with Hitler, his nephew continues his work, that is Arafat, Israel gives up fertile farms and the Palestiniens run them into the ground...It seems a lot of the have nots wanting what the worked fors have gotten.
Oh and I have one Question, Arafat was listed as a very rich man, where did his money come form?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:12:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheWind:
Let's see, a Desert, the Jews move in andit FLowers...The Grand Mufti Of Jersulaeam hates Jews throws in with Hitler, his nephew continues his work, that is Arafat, Israel gives up fertile farms and the Palestiniens run them into the ground...It seems a lot of the have nots wanting what the worked fors have gotten.
Oh and I have one Question, Arafat was listed as a very rich man, where did his money come form?



___-

Hi TheWind!

Added to that, the territories and lands the "Palestinians" have acquired upon removal of the Israeli's who tendered arable fields, these people, these "Palestinians", have failed yet again to be able to manage and produce crops...and it's not because of water issues...it's because they expect hand-outs and support.

They may view themselves as "entitled" to the land, though they care for it as much as they care for their children to go forth and commit homicide-bombings.

Ed
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 12:18:27 PM EDT by TheWind]
Hi Brother, Yes Jews have always been in Israel, the Palestians have only existed recently and in general are despised by other Arabs

Added, my tribe and I have been hiding....so I haven't been on that much
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:09:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

This post is too simplified in that the issue is that since the Jewsish population hasn't been therein the last 1000 years the arabs think it doesnt belong to them.

Land in then-Palestine was purchased by Jewish agencies was leased on the conditions that it be worked only by Jewish labour and that the lease should not be held by non-Jews. In order to purchase land for the resettlement of Jews in their ancient homeland, the Fifth Zionist Congress (1901) created a private charitable organization called the Jewish National Fund (JNF). Before the State of Israel was established in 1948, land purchased by the JNF was not resold but was instead leased out on a long-term basis to create kibbutzim and other forms of Jewish settlement.

Further, there has always been a Jewish population, albeit small, in the area originally called Palestine; this view neglects the fact that there were already an arab and jewish state established in historical Palestine which became Israel and Jordan


Ed



Ok let me state that what small populations that did exist did not have political control over the arabs. A good example to illistrate how the arabs feel would be mexican nationals taking over all of mexico and governing it without american influence at all. Another would be native americans taking complete control over the US government because the UN said they were wronged hundreds of years ago. Is this true, yes but Im sure people wouldnt be happy with it because we now have our system of government today. It would be like a foriegn influence coming into the country and giving all the power to a minority. Again somwhat simplied but you get the idea.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:45:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 8:05:56 PM EDT by TraumaLevel1]
Same problem with the British and Irish. Same terrorists but they are called the IRA. When you take people from Europe and put them in the middle east to form a country of their own your going to have problems. The only way Isreal remains in power is because we send them 4 billion dollars to support them. The Arab countries hate us because we support them financially and with military technology. Without this Isreal would no longer exist.

If you use the fact that thousands of years ago the Jews left the mid east and now have the right to come back, then the native American Indians have the right to take the US back. I don't think that people who have lived in Germany, Poland, Russia ... for thousands of years have the right to kick out the Palistinians from their land and form a new country. However, I support Isreal because they are an extension of democracy and share similar views with America.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:12:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 8:14:31 PM EDT by TraumaLevel1]

Originally Posted By MudBug:
aside from all the ancient history, I don't think the modern problems really started until the Jews turned what was an empty wasteland into a productive country.



If you agree with this then why did we help the Afganistan people fight off the Russians. Afghanistan was a wasteland and still is a wasteland. Therefore, we should have let the Russians take it over?!
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:06:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TraumaLevel1:
Same problem with the British and Irish. Same terrorists but they are called the IRA. When you take people from Europe and put them in the middle east to form a country of their own your going to have problems. The only way Isreal remains in power is because we send them 4 billion dollars to support them. The Arab countries hate us because we support them financially and with military technology. Without this Isreal would no longer exist.

If you use the fact that thousands of years ago the Jews left the mid east and now have the right to come back, then the native American Indians have the right to take the US back. I don't think that people who have lived in Germany, Poland, Russia ... for thousands of years have the right to kick out the Palistinians from their land and form a new country. However, I support Isreal because they are an extension of democracy and share similar views with America.



I agree with this. The one thing I would like to add is the fact that Isreal has been known to get alittle out of control at times. Now somtimes its justifyable because it is under so much terrorist bombardment. I wouldnt say they share ideals with us that much only on the surface. The palistinians are unjustly treated and I dont see much representation in the Isreali government for them.

I feel that Isreal needs to be put on a leash as its actions seem to hurt our reputation in the mid east more and more. I dont feel that we needed to give them nuclear capability and I dont feel we need to constantly give them arms. I mean every time they kill a palistinian the damn bomb practically says from uncle sam on it. With Iraq going on I really wonder how much of an important ally they will be in the upcomming years.

The really scaring thing is what will happen to the fragile peace process with Sharon laid up in the hospital with his stroke.
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