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Posted: 12/20/2005 9:03:29 AM EDT
I understand that anyone who accepts and believes in Jesus Christ will be given life eternal in Heaven. I think that means that those who don't will go to Hell.

Here's what I have terrible trouble accepting...

Say someone rapes, tortures and murders your wife or daughter. They then accept Jesus Christ and are allowed to go to Heaven. But someone like my brother, who is an atheist, will burn.



How can this be?

I know its not mine to judge or necessarily to understand even, but this eats at me...

Can you guys help me to understand this?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:12:39 AM EDT
My .02 cents? It's not as black and white as your example.

Standby for the ARFCOM bible-belt et al.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:15:35 AM EDT
In our human minds we can readily grasp concepts of revenge, vengeance, and justice.

One thing I have not been able to totally comprehend is grace. But I know I would be helpless without it.

Grace is unmerited favor.

Justice is what we deserve.

We hear so many people complain about things not being "fair."

As I look back over my life, I don't want fair. I don't want what I deserve. I'll take grace over justice any day.

The sacrifice Yeshua made is sufficient for all sins. If it was up to me, a lot of people wouldn't stand a chance. However, fortunately, it's not my job to choose who gets forgiven and who doesn't.

It's not the way I would have chosen things to be. It's the way things are. I think that goes a long way toward arguing that Christianity is not a man-made religion. It goes against our nature in these things.

God's love and grace surpass our feeble ability to comprehend.

I don't know if this helps at all. I hope it does.

Have you ever seen the movie "Rudy" about the kid who wanted to play football for Notre Dame? There's a scene where he's talking with a priest. The priest tells him, "There are two things I am sure of. First, there is a God. Second, I'm not Him."

I can't always predict precisely what God will do, but I know He will do what's right.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:20:58 AM EDT
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:25:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
In our human minds we can readily grasp concepts of revenge, vengeance, and justice.

One thing I have not been able to totally comprehend is grace. But I know I would be helpless without it.

Grace is unmerited favor.

Justice is what we deserve.

We hear so many people complain about things not being "fair."

As I look back over my life, I don't want fair. I don't want what I deserve. I'll take grace over justice any day.

The sacrifice Yeshua made is sufficient for all sins. If it was up to me, a lot of people wouldn't stand a chance. However, fortunately, it's not my job to choose who gets forgiven and who doesn't.



Yes, same here. My natural instinct is eye-for-an-eye.




It's not the way I would have chosen things to be. It's the way things are. I think that goes a long way toward arguing that Christianity is not a man-made religion. It goes against our nature in these things.



That's a good point. It really does.




God's love and grace surpass our feeble ability to comprehend.

I don't know if this helps at all. I hope it does.



A little. I don't know if I'll ever understand it but to hear how other people deal with it helps. I'm not very religious at all but my fiance is. We've been giong to church regularly and I've been reading the bible. I'm finding it it means much more to me than it ever used to but I'm still really struggling with it.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:46:51 AM EDT
Brohawk said it well.


Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:52:01 AM EDT

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Salvation is available to everyone even murderers and rapists. I'm sure your brother has much less to be forgiven of but he too must still be forgiven and accept Jesus as saviour. Its a choice we all must make. Preach the gospel to him, invite him to church, and pray for his salvation.


Shok
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:53:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
... I'll take grace over justice any day...



Amen!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:05:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
... I'll take grace over justice any day...



Amen!



As would I!

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:22:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
... I'll take grace over justice any day...



Amen!



+1 the last thing I will ever ask from God is to ask for Justice.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:29:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:
Say someone rapes, tortures and murders your wife or daughter. They then accept Jesus Christ and are allowed to go to Heaven. But someone like my brother, who is an atheist, will burn.



Yep.

Saul/Paul was one bad SOB, and God used him mightily. The question is whether or not a person really accepts Jesus as lord and savior. It's easy to say on your deathbed, but to truly surrender yourself to someone and make them your Lord is not a mere gesture. I posit that it will be difficult for someone who has made a life of doing such awful things to truly accept Jesus.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:32:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
In our human minds we can readily grasp concepts of revenge, vengeance, and justice.

One thing I have not been able to totally comprehend is grace. But I know I would be helpless without it.

Grace is unmerited favor.

Justice is what we deserve.

We hear so many people complain about things not being "fair."

As I look back over my life, I don't want fair. I don't want what I deserve. I'll take grace over justice any day.

The sacrifice Yeshua made is sufficient for all sins. If it was up to me, a lot of people wouldn't stand a chance. However, fortunately, it's not my job to choose who gets forgiven and who doesn't.

It's not the way I would have chosen things to be. It's the way things are. I think that goes a long way toward arguing that Christianity is not a man-made religion. It goes against our nature in these things.

God's love and grace surpass our feeble ability to comprehend.

I don't know if this helps at all. I hope it does.

Have you ever seen the movie "Rudy" about the kid who wanted to play football for Notre Dame? There's a scene where he's talking with a priest. The priest tells him, "There are two things I am sure of. First, there is a God. Second, I'm not Him."

I can't always predict precisely what God will do, but I know He will do what's right.

Seriously, you should write... This doesn't mean you are correct, but you express yourself well.

Oh, and I don't want fairness or what I deserve according to the etherial balance sheet. I want to manipulate my conditions to exploit opportunities, and avoid traps.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:41:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:45:05 PM EDT by JohnTheTexican]
The Bible says (as I understand and paraphrase it) that everyone--the rapist, you, me, your Athiest brother, Mother Theresa, Chuck Norris, etc.--has broken God's laws and therefore deserves to be seperated from God, which means going to hell. But by God's grace, those who are willing to accept salvation can be saved. And that entails acknowledging who bought that act of grace for you. If you're so enamored with being an athiest or whatever that you can't do that, then you only get what you've got coming.

Or, if you prefer to think that "good" people deserve salvation, to quote Bill Muny, "Deserves got nothin' to do with it."
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:43:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:46:34 AM EDT
DP-

Is that a breast cancer ribbon or an ichthus in your avatar?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:42:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 5:46:42 AM EDT by HardShell]
Deleted. I misunderstood the question & he was kidding anyway...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:47:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.




If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly outta my butt......


Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:37:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
DP-

Is that a breast cancer ribbon or an ichthus in your avatar?

It's a bad photoshop penciling of the ribbon. It does look like the Jesus fish, but I figured most would know that it isn't.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:58:15 PM EDT
For all have falling short ...
We are born in a condition of being sinful. You actions in life don't condem you to hell. You are born going to hell because of our nature. Desendant of Adam.
What ever sin we commit only results in more coals being heaped on our heads.......
When God calls you to be saved, how we respond is what determines if you go to heaven, I won't go into the being elected issue.
This savaltion thing was made 'simple' in part to confound the 'wise ,educated' persom who thinks he can by his actions or reasoning can somehow get himself into heaven. Remember their will be whole nations that won't be know by God even though they acted good.(Sheep and Goats)
So read John, Acts and Galations and alot of things will be answered.
Merry Christmas
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:54:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:
I understand that anyone who accepts and believes in Jesus Christ will be given life eternal in Heaven. I think that means that those who don't will go to Hell.

Here's what I have terrible trouble accepting...

Say someone rapes, tortures and murders your wife or daughter. They then accept Jesus Christ and are allowed to go to Heaven. But someone like my brother, who is an atheist, will burn.



How can this be?

I know its not mine to judge or necessarily to understand even, but this eats at me...

Can you guys help me to understand this?



I can explain it to you....

Christianity will NEVER be able to cope with that dilemna, because it's man giving God the set of rules he chooses to play by.

A benevolent God wouldn't roast a good person, and let a shitbag into his folds on a technicality, and I think we all know this to be true. Unfortunately, when you sculpt your life around rigid, antiquated dogma, you have to stick to those guns or the whole house of cards falls in on you.

Stop worrying, and live a good life. God will understand.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:02:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
DP-

Is that a breast cancer ribbon or an ichthus in your avatar?

It's a bad photoshop penciling of the ribbon. It does look like the Jesus fish, but I figured most would know that it isn't.



I knew. I was just yanking your chain.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:17:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 4:20:50 AM EDT by fizassist]

Originally Posted By swingset:
I can explain it to you....

Christianity will NEVER be able to cope with that dilemna, because it's man giving God the set of rules he chooses to play by.

A benevolent God wouldn't roast a good person, and let a shitbag into his folds on a technicality, and I think we all know this to be true. Unfortunately, when you sculpt your life around rigid, antiquated dogma, you have to stick to those guns or the whole house of cards falls in on you.

Stop worrying, and live a good life. God will understand.



Perhaps you could expound on what God considers "good" enough to be worthy of going to heaven? Similarly, what are the exact qualities that make a person so much of a shitbag that he doesn't deserve to go to heaven? I'm sure you have that all reasoned out, right?

The only thing that is antiquated here is the idea that one can earn salvation. Grace is the "next big thing", man.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:17:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:


I can explain it to you....



Not as well as you think.


Christianity will NEVER be able to cope with that dilemna, because it's man giving God the set of rules he chooses to play by.


Boy, have you ever got it backwards.

God makes the rules.

That's why so many people rebel against them. We don't get to make the rules and that tends to annoy us.

Also, you can't define or judge God's standards according to human reasoning. That's futile.


A benevolent God wouldn't roast a good person, and let a shitbag into his folds on a technicality, and I think we all know this to be true. Unfortunately, when you sculpt your life around rigid, antiquated dogma, you have to stick to those guns or the whole house of cards falls in on you.


You can't just pick and choose the attributes of God that agree with your personal opinions.

He is also holy and righteous. If He ignored or winked at sin, He would cease to be those things.

Actions beget consequences. The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Wages are earned. They are what we deserve because of our actions. Those who commit sin (and that would be all of us) are deserving of the punishment that accomanies it.

God is also loving and compassionate.

He saw us stuck in this situation that we weren't able to overcome by our own efforts.

Motivated by this love (For God so loved the world...", John 3:16), He stepped into this world in the person of Jesus and took our consequences upon Himself.

There's a song that goes, "I owed a debt I could not pay, He paid a debt He did not owe..."

After taking our penalty upon Himself, He then offered forgiveness and grace to us.

Remember that other statement above: "...The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Gifts are free. If you did something to earn it, it isn't a gift.

Also, gifts have to be received. I can offer you a gift, but you get no benefit from it if you don't receive it.

God made us aware of the consequences that follow sin, and He also offers a way out, through faith in Jesus.

All that is left is a decision on our part; to accept of reject that gift.

Being aware of the consequences of rejecting it, a person has no one else to blame for what follows.

Thus, God does not "send" anyone to hell.

He respects your right to make a free will decision to accept consequences for your behavior, or accept His gift of grace.

As for me, I'm a big fan of grace.


Stop worrying, and live a good life. God will understand.


How good? Can you be good enough to meet God's standard of righteousness?

I know I can't do it, at least not on my own.

Fortunately, I have a Friend who carries me.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:18:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:19:32 AM EDT by arowneragain]
*sigh*


As time goes on, it becomes more and more obvious that this forum is NOT, as we were told to believe, a place where Christians can discuss ideas, but, rather, a place where whiny non-believers can come along and piss on the threads where others are TRYING to discuss serious matters.


It's just a place where belivers can be harassed without others having to put up with the inconvenience of seeing references to Jesus in general discussion.


Staff, if I'm wrong, PROVE IT.


Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:27:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.



Nothing Paul taught is incompatible with Universalist doctrine. Everyone is saved by grace right?

Well in universalism EVERYONE is saved by grace.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:28:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:
I understand that anyone who accepts and believes in Jesus Christ will be given life eternal in Heaven. I think that means that those who don't will go to Hell.

Here's what I have terrible trouble accepting...

Say someone rapes, tortures and murders your wife or daughter. They then accept Jesus Christ and are allowed to go to Heaven. But someone like my brother, who is an atheist, will burn.



How can this be?

I know its not mine to judge or necessarily to understand even, but this eats at me...

Can you guys help me to understand this?



I can explain it to you....

Christianity will NEVER be able to cope with that dilemna, because it's man giving God the set of rules he chooses to play by.

A benevolent God wouldn't roast a good person, and let a shitbag into his folds on a technicality, and I think we all know this to be true. Unfortunately, when you sculpt your life around rigid, antiquated dogma, you have to stick to those guns or the whole house of cards falls in on you.

Stop worrying, and live a good life. God will understand.



Actually I think a benevolent God would allow all in His house. You pack all the evil you can do in one lifetime and it doesn't merit an eternity of punishment.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:29:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:31:24 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.




If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly outta my butt......





I feel the same way about the beliefs of Christians like you

btw there is a large difference between UUism and Christian Universalism

Many Christians are universalists, but not UU's

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:35:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.




If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly outta my butt......





I feel the same way about the beliefs of Christians like you

btw there is a large difference between UUism and Christian Universalism

Many Christians are universalists, but not UU's





Yep.

I know a few of them. But none of them have ever read and understood the Bible.

As for what you 'feel', you could, y'know, dump those feelings and replace them with Scripture - which makes it clear that your supposed beliefs (I say 'supposed' because you and I both know that you believe, you just won't accept it) are pure bunk.


Why do you even bother, Dino? People here see right through you.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:35:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
*sigh*


As time goes on, it becomes more and more obvious that this forum is NOT, as we were told to believe, a place where Christians can discuss ideas, but, rather, a place where whiny non-believers can come along and piss on the threads where others are TRYING to discuss serious matters.


It's just a place where belivers can be harassed without others having to put up with the inconvenience of seeing references to Jesus in general discussion.


Staff, if I'm wrong, PROVE IT.



That's about the way I see it.....

When the original poster explicitly asks for help with Christianity and gets several "your god sucks" kind of posts, something is wrong.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:39:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.




If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly outta my butt......





I feel the same way about the beliefs of Christians like you

btw there is a large difference between UUism and Christian Universalism

Many Christians are universalists, but not UU's





Yep.

I know a few of them. But none of them have ever read and understood the Bible.

As for what you 'feel', you could, y'know, dump those feelings and replace them with Scripture - which makes it clear that your supposed beliefs (I say 'supposed' because you and I both know that you believe, you just won't accept it) are pure bunk.

Why do you even bother, Dino? People here see right through you.




I'm curious now, what are my supposed beliefs? You then say I believe but pretend I don't. Wouldn't my beliefs be real then?

Most confusing.



Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:42:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
*sigh*


As time goes on, it becomes more and more obvious that this forum is NOT, as we were told to believe, a place where Christians can discuss ideas, but, rather, a place where whiny non-believers can come along and piss on the threads where others are TRYING to discuss serious matters.


It's just a place where belivers can be harassed without others having to put up with the inconvenience of seeing references to Jesus in general discussion.


Staff, if I'm wrong, PROVE IT.



That's about the way I see it.....

When the original poster explicitly asks for help with Christianity and gets several "your god sucks" kind of posts, something is wrong.



Actually the first attack in this thread was by arowneragain who attacked my religion. I guess that is ok though, since he is correct and all other religions are just devil worshippers...

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:43:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.




If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly outta my butt......





I feel the same way about the beliefs of Christians like you

btw there is a large difference between UUism and Christian Universalism

Many Christians are universalists, but not UU's





Yep.

I know a few of them. But none of them have ever read and understood the Bible.

As for what you 'feel', you could, y'know, dump those feelings and replace them with Scripture - which makes it clear that your supposed beliefs (I say 'supposed' because you and I both know that you believe, you just won't accept it) are pure bunk.

Why do you even bother, Dino? People here see right through you.




I'm curious now, what are my supposed beliefs? You then say I believe but pretend I don't. Wouldn't my beliefs be real then?

Most confusing.






We've had this talk before.


You *claim* that you are an atheist/agnostic/whatever, and go to theis UU so-called 'church' .

In reality, you accept the full Gospel of Jesus Christ as complete truth - but you've got a pride/rebellion problem that keeps you from admitting it.

Probably goes back to a conflict with your parents.


Instead of admitting that 'dad was right', you take the 'easy' way out by sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'lalalalalalalalalal'.


And because of this (moreso than the utter ridiculousness of pretty well everything you've ever posted on religion) it's flat impossible to take you serious on anything.


Haven't we discussed this before?

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:44:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By swingset:
... A benevolent God wouldn't roast a good person...



... Actually I think a benevolent God would allow all in His house...



YMMV, of course, but the God I worship isn't defined by His benevolence but by His sovereignty. IOW, whatever He does is right & just by definition - we are neither worthy nor capable of judging His actions.

Like I said, YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:44:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
*sigh*


As time goes on, it becomes more and more obvious that this forum is NOT, as we were told to believe, a place where Christians can discuss ideas, but, rather, a place where whiny non-believers can come along and piss on the threads where others are TRYING to discuss serious matters.


It's just a place where belivers can be harassed without others having to put up with the inconvenience of seeing references to Jesus in general discussion.


Staff, if I'm wrong, PROVE IT.



That's about the way I see it.....

When the original poster explicitly asks for help with Christianity and gets several "your god sucks" kind of posts, something is wrong.



Actually the first attack in this thread was by arowneragain who attacked my religion. I guess that is ok though, since he is correct and all other religions are just devil worshippers...








No, seriously,


Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:53:08 AM EDT


And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.


And if Universalists are correct, Jesus was a liar. John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:55:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:56:10 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
We've had this talk before. hehe no we haven't


You *claim* that you are an atheist/agnostic/whatever, and go to theis UU so-called 'church' . it is a church, nothing so-called about it

In reality, you accept the full Gospel of Jesus Christ as complete truth - but you've got a pride/rebellion problem that keeps you from admitting it. nope, Jesus was just a man

Probably goes back to a conflict with your parents. doubtful. mother and father were non religious, my mother is now a Jewish convert and my father is now a liberal Christian (who believes in universal salvation). My stepmother is Catholic and attends my father's Church. He plays keyboards in the band at services.


Instead of admitting that 'dad was right', you take the 'easy' way out by sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'lalalalalalalalalal'. or I could just be in the right religion for me, imagine that


And because of this (moreso than the utter ridiculousness of pretty well everything you've ever posted on religion) it's flat impossible to take you serious on anything. blah blah blah


Haven't we discussed this before? nope




Thats a lot of venom for the Christmas season arowneragain, too much for me.

I'd like to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!


Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:01:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
We've had this talk before. hehe no we haven't


You *claim* that you are an atheist/agnostic/whatever, and go to theis UU so-called 'church' . it is a church, nothing so-called about it

In reality, you accept the full Gospel of Jesus Christ as complete truth - but you've got a pride/rebellion problem that keeps you from admitting it. nope, Jesus was just a man

Probably goes back to a conflict with your parents. doubtful. mother and father were non religious, my mother is now a Jewish convert and my father is now a liberal Christian (who believes in universal salvation). My stepmother is Catholic and attends my father's Church. He plays keyboards in the band at services.


Instead of admitting that 'dad was right', you take the 'easy' way out by sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'lalalalalalalalalal'. or I could just be in the right religion for me, imagine that


And because of this (moreso than the utter ridiculousness of pretty well everything you've ever posted on religion) it's flat impossible to take you serious on anything. blah blah blah


Haven't we discussed this before? nope




Thats a lot of venom for the Christmas season arowneragain, too much for me.

I'd like to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!





I'm taken aback!

There wasn't a single drop of 'venom' in my post. How deeply the truth cuts, however!


Bless your heart.

You (and yours) have a Merry christmas, too.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:02:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfFox:


And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.


And if Universalists are correct, Jesus was a liar. John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".



there are many interpretations to that phrase, assuming it was ever uttered by Jesus and wasn't just an insertion by John to get his (not Jesus's) theology across.

Universalism is the only possible outcome of salvation by grace.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:03:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By WolfFox:


And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.


And if Universalists are correct, Jesus was a liar. John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".



there are many interpretations to that phrase, assuming it was ever uttered by Jesus and wasn't just an insertion by John to get his (not Jesus's) theology across.

Universalism is the only possible outcome of salvation by grace.










Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:05:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:07:31 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

I'm taken aback!

There wasn't a single drop of 'venom' in my post. How deeply the truth cuts, however!

You didn't mean any venom in your potshot at my "so-called church". I myself am taken aback and apologize most sincerely for misinterpreting the kind phrases you sent my way...

Bless your heart.

You (and yours) have a Merry christmas, too.




Thanks, we always do
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:08:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By WolfFox:


And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.


And if Universalists are correct, Jesus was a liar. John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".



there are many interpretations to that phrase, assuming it was ever uttered by Jesus and wasn't just an insertion by John to get his (not Jesus's) theology across.

Universalism is the only possible outcome of salvation by grace.


Yep! And Santa Clause is coming to town! Have a very Merry CHRISTmas and a happy New Year!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:12:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfFox:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By WolfFox:


And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.


And if Universalists are correct, Jesus was a liar. John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".



there are many interpretations to that phrase, assuming it was ever uttered by Jesus and wasn't just an insertion by John to get his (not Jesus's) theology across.

Universalism is the only possible outcome of salvation by grace.


Yep! And Santa Clause is coming to town! Have a very Merry CHRISTmas and a happy New Year!



I live in Texas, so it will be Bubba Clause
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:06:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
*sigh*


As time goes on, it becomes more and more obvious that this forum is NOT, as we were told to believe, a place where Christians can discuss ideas, but, rather, a place where whiny non-believers can come along and piss on the threads where others are TRYING to discuss serious matters.


It's just a place where belivers can be harassed without others having to put up with the inconvenience of seeing references to Jesus in general discussion.


Staff, if I'm wrong, PROVE IT.





Yes, perhaps it should be turned into a purely Christian forum. Then all of the Christians can argue over various interpretations of Scripture, until it becomes clear there needs to be a forum for each denomination. Then, the denominations can argue amongst each other, ad inifitum...
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:09:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

I can't always predict precisely what God will do, but I know He will do what's right.



ANd this is where I lose my faith....

My grandmother suffered trough cance for several years, and she was a very devout woman.

And various other things that have happened in my life.

I have no faith anymore, and doubt that I ever will......
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:38:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.




If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly outta my butt......





oooh, that might feel a little funny
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:51:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
very nice Brohawk.

I'd like to add that the scenario laid out is one interpretation of the message in the Bible.

In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven at some point after they are dead. This is based on the belief that a loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to everlasting torment, but would instead reform them. This is a belief held by some protestant denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism", holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and therefore Hell does not need to exist.

If Universalists are correct, then neither your brother nor the rapist nor the murdere will burn in Hell forever.




the history of universalism goes way back.
the greek orthodox church has always allowed for the apokatastasis (universal salvation). The greek orthodox church and the catholic church were once one church. that original church split into the two halves, but the belief in universalism goes way back to the early church fathers. The Hell of torment was introduced about 400 years after the crucifixion.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:38:53 AM EDT

As time goes on, it becomes more and more obvious that this forum is NOT, as we were told to believe, a place where Christians can discuss ideas, but, rather, a place where whiny non-believers can come along and piss on the threads where others are TRYING to discuss serious matters.


It's just a place where belivers can be harassed without others having to put up with the inconvenience of seeing references to Jesus in general discussion.




I think you are right
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:51:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfFox:


And if Universalists are correct, Paul was a freakin liar.


And if Universalists are correct, Jesus was a liar. John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".



Standing alone, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. It could just mean that Jesus's sacrifice paid for everyone's sins.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:34:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

I can't always predict precisely what God will do, but I know He will do what's right.



ANd this is where I lose my faith....

My grandmother suffered trough cance for several years, and she was a very devout woman.

And various other things that have happened in my life.

I have no faith anymore, and doubt that I ever will......





God never promised Christians or anyone would have a problem free life.

Have you ever read Job?

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:01:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
... I'll take grace over justice any day...



Amen!



As would I!




Late in on this one, but plus 1000!

The final decision is up to God Almighty anyway...

Gwen
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:44:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vangeon:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
*sigh*


As time goes on, it becomes more and more obvious that this forum is NOT, as we were told to believe, a place where Christians can discuss ideas, but, rather, a place where whiny non-believers can come along and piss on the threads where others are TRYING to discuss serious matters.


It's just a place where belivers can be harassed without others having to put up with the inconvenience of seeing references to Jesus in general discussion.


Staff, if I'm wrong, PROVE IT.





Yes, perhaps it should be turned into a purely Christian forum. Then all of the Christians can argue over various interpretations of Scripture, until it becomes clear there needs to be a forum for each denomination. Then, the denominations can argue amongst each other, ad inifitum...



No, the forum should continue like it is. I rather enjoy that people of different minds can talk about those differences, and unlike most of the people around here, I don't cry like a 12 year old girl if the whole world doesn't agree with me.

I love the fact that AR15.com, which is about 85% Christian, has so many members that feel they're the poor, neglected minority. And, I also like that being Christian doesn't seem to matter at all, if you can't share your Christianity with everyone, force them to agree, and never be debated.

For God's chosen religion, it sure stands on weak knees if it topples so easily that a single forum, on one gun discussion site, can malign their entire faith.
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