Quoted: Here's what I have terrible trouble accepting...

First things first:

A relationship with God rests upon the fact that He is God and you are not. Thus you must understand that there are areas where He will do whatever He wishes, and you and I don't have any real say in it.

One of the perks of being sovereign is that He doesn't have to answer to anyone.

Say someone rapes, tortures and murders your wife or daughter.  They then accept Jesus Christ and are allowed to go to Heaven.  But someone like my brother, who is an atheist, will burn. How can this be? I know its not mine to judge or necessarily to understand even, but this eats at me... Can you guys help me to understand this?

What is righteousness?

To define righteousness, we must look at God. Righteousness' highest expression and root definition is found in the person of God.

What man can equal God's righteousness?

None. We all fall well short of the goal.

So what man can be considered righteous?

Only those to whom God imparts righteousness through His own sovereign will. This He has chosen to do through His Son, Christ.

Thus righteousness for man is now guaged by the status of relationship between man and Christ. Those who are in proper relationship, who obey Him as Lord, are righteous. Those who do not, are not.

Those who reject the only means of becoming righteous break relationship with God OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, no matter how "good" we perceive them to be. Those who humble themselves before God take advantage of the offer God has made by His Sovereign Decision, thus they can stand before Him.

Jesus says that He is The Door, and anyone who tries to enter by ANY other way is a thief and a robber.

In the end, it comes down to trust. Who do you trust more? God and His will, or your own personal sense of justice?

Quoted: I can explain it to you.... Christianity will NEVER be able to cope with that dilemna, because it's man giving God the set of rules he chooses to play by. A benevolent God wouldn't roast a good person, and let a shitbag into his folds on a technicality, and I think we all know this to be true.

Genuine repentence is not a "techincality".

It never has been.

It never will be.

It is a complete and total change of being brought about by an individual's willing submission to the renewing work of The Holy Spirit, where old things are passed away and all things become new.

Someone cannot merely recite a few magic words and fool God any more than Tookie williams could write a kiddie book and fool the rest of us.

Quoted: Actually I think a benevolent God would allow all in His house.

Here is the problem with that concept.

What is sin?

Rebellion against God.

God tossed Satan out of heaven because he rebelled, and 1/3 of the angels with him. God tossed Adam out of the garden because he rebelled.

Is He suddenly going to ignore rebellion? Will an unrepentant Hitler be mingling in heaven with the millions he slaughtered? Will the unrepentant Mao walk the streets of gold with the Christians he killed? Can the one who refuses to admit their status as a sinner before God still be subject to the saving grace of God?

God made a way of salvation through Christ, but even Christ cannot save someone against their will. Man was lost when he refused to obey the authority of God. God sent Christ so that man could once again submit to God's authority and find salvation.

One cannot remain a rebel and still dine with The King.

Quoted: ANd this is where I lose my faith.... My grandmother suffered trough cance for several years, and she was a very devout woman. And various other things that have happened in my life. I have no faith anymore, and doubt that I ever will......

Did your grandmother ever renounce her faith?

Quoted: Quoted: Actually I think a benevolent God would allow all in His house.     Here is the problem with that concept. What is sin? Rebellion against God. God tossed Satan out of heaven because he rebelled, and 1/3 of the angels with him. God tossed Adam out of the garden because he rebelled. Is He suddenly going to ignore rebellion? Will an unrepentant Hitler be mingling in heaven with the millions he slaughtered? Will the unrepentant Mao walk the streets of gold with the Christians he killed? Can the one who refuses to admit their status as a sinner before God still be subject to the saving grace of God? God made a way of salvation through Christ, but even Christ cannot save someone against their will. Man was lost when he refused to obey the authority of God. God sent Christ so that man could once again submit to God's authority and find salvation. One cannot remain a rebel and still dine with The King.

and I'm sure that all makes great sense to you, but it seems to me that you do a disservice to God by limiting him that way.

Will an unrepentant Hitler be mingling in heaven with the millions he slaughtered? Will the unrepentant Mao walk the streets of gold with the Christians he killed? Can the one who refuses to admit their status as a sinner before God still be subject to the saving grace of God?

I'm not God, I can't say.  But if there is a God, I am quite certain that he won't sentence anyone to an eternity of pain for a the limited amount of evil they can accomplish in one lifetime.   God is just, therefor the punishment will fit the crime.

I'll turn it around on you.    Will the man who lost his faith in the concentration camps be forced to spend eternity in hell with Hitler?   Will the agnostic who was killed by Mao be forced to endure an eternity of pain next to his murderer?   Will a well meaning pagan like Ghandi be forced to suffer next to Stalin?  The same punishment for different crimes isn't anything approaching justice.    I find it hard to believe a supreme being would come up with a system any child would see as unjust.

Universal salvation doesn't necessarily mean its a "get out of jail free" card.   It very well could be all souls who don't accept Jesus have to spend time in hell as punishment and are then "paroled" to heaven.

Catholicism has an inkling of this concept in purgatory and , as someone else pointed out,  the Eastern Orthodox Church has a history of belief in universal salvation.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Actually I think a benevolent God would allow all in His house.     Here is the problem with that concept. What is sin? Rebellion against God. God tossed Satan out of heaven because he rebelled, and 1/3 of the angels with him. God tossed Adam out of the garden because he rebelled. Is He suddenly going to ignore rebellion? Will an unrepentant Hitler be mingling in heaven with the millions he slaughtered? Will the unrepentant Mao walk the streets of gold with the Christians he killed? Can the one who refuses to admit their status as a sinner before God still be subject to the saving grace of God? God made a way of salvation through Christ, but even Christ cannot save someone against their will. Man was lost when he refused to obey the authority of God. God sent Christ so that man could once again submit to God's authority and find salvation. One cannot remain a rebel and still dine with The King. and I'm sure that all makes great sense to you, but it seems to me that you do a disservice to God by limiting him that way. Will an unrepentant Hitler be mingling in heaven with the millions he slaughtered? Will the unrepentant Mao walk the streets of gold with the Christians he killed? Can the one who refuses to admit their status as a sinner before God still be subject to the saving grace of God? I'm not God, I can't say.  But if there is a God, I am quite certain that he won't sentence anyone to an eternity of pain for a the limited amount of evil they can accomplish in one lifetime.   God is just, therefor the punishment will fit the crime. I'll turn it around on you.    Will the man who lost his faith in the concentration camps be forced to spend eternity in hell with Hitler?   Will the agnostic who was killed by Mao be forced to endure an eternity of pain next to his murderer?   Will a well meaning pagan like Ghandi be forced to suffer next to Stalin?  The same punishment for different crimes isn't anything approaching justice.    I find it hard to believe a supreme being would come up with a system any child would see as unjust. Universal salvation doesn't necessarily mean its a "get out of jail free" card.   It very well could be all souls who don't accept Jesus have to spend time in hell as punishment and are then "paroled" to heaven. Catholicism has an inkling of this concept in purgatory and , as someone else pointed out,  the Eastern Orthodox Church has a history of belief in universal salvation.

Interesting how someone can start a sentence questioning God's very existence and end it with a definitive statement about what God would do.  If He existed, of course.

Quoted: Interesting how someone can start a sentence questioning God's very existence and end it with a definitive statement about what God would do.  If He existed, of course.

As opposed to making a definitive statement about whether he exists and then stating what he would do?  

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent then universal salvation or annihilation are the only 2 options I see consistent with those characteristics.

The mercy of forgiveness or the mercy of a bullet.    Man is capable of either of those forms of mercy, I would think no less of God.  (if he actually exists ;p)   We look down on those who torture people,  I would think God was at least as moral as we are.

Biblical Proofs for Universal Salvation

Quoted: I'll turn it around on you.    Will the man who lost his faith in the concentration camps be forced to spend eternity in hell with Hitler?   Will the agnostic who was killed by Mao be forced to endure an eternity of pain next to his murderer?   Will a well meaning pagan like Ghandi be forced to suffer next to Stalin?  The same punishment for different crimes isn't anything approaching justice.    I find it hard to believe a supreme being would come up with a system any child would see as unjust.

Dino, to anyone with a shred of grey matter, that turnaround is a philosophical box that is impossible to get out of, but to John Wayne and alot of Christians on this board, it's no such thing.

Because in every example you gave of an innocent, they feel nothing for that person - because it's not them or someone they care about. That's where Christianity meets its ugly, human selfishness.

When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards where even the devout Buddhist, even the Native Americans, even the unspoiled children of the rainforest tribes who have never seen a white face all burn in hell for never accepting their savior, Jesus Christ. And, worse, by that same stance, the most vile humans are allowed into the loving folds of Heaven by repenting.

What has always made me nuts, is when confronted with the sheer lunacy of that kind of stance, many Christians are quite comfortable damning billions of history's unfortunate souls who never knew Jesus yet lived an otherwise "good life". All, supposedly, because this is what the Bible professes.

It's such a smug, condescending thing to believe, and it's the fundamental reason I severed my ties with the Christian faith.

I'm sure there will be many arguments pointed at me, telling me how little I understand, if I'd only read the Bible (for the 50th time in my life), if I had faith, blah blah blah. Been there a million times, and I still don't recognize a God with human frailties. Sorry.

Think Man Think!!!!
What kind of asshole God would condemn someone (his children) to eternal darkness just because they didn't believe in him???
God is supposed to be our all compassionate, all loving father. We are ALL going to Heaven in the next world. No matter what. It is in this shithole world that we will suffer.

"many Christians are quite comfortable damning billions of history's unfortunate souls who never knew Jesus yet lived an otherwise "good life". All, supposedly, because this is what the Bible professes."

You don;t have to sever your ties with christianity just because you don't agree with their interpretation. Many "christians" are sensible people who believe as we do. Wasn;t it Jesus who said "forgive them father for they know not what they do?" There are many ways to interpret the bible hence so many Christian sects.  Many are catholics still even thought the cathiolic church  has commited numerous heinous crimes over the years. Including recently of harboring felons who molest children. That is a capitol crime by the way.

Do what your Father says and a childs life is safer.

Don't listen to what your Father says and a child puts themselves in danger.

Some children won't listen until they have endangered themselves and
realize they need their Father and seek him out for protection.

A loving Father takes them back. A child that has learned their lesson will
appreciate it.

This grandfather is relieved that he still has a Father to guide him although
Pops has been dead a long time.

GM

The Bible truely does have all the answers if you know where to look.....
Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all impiety [or ungodliness] and unrighteousness of people, [upon] the ones suppressing the truth in righteousness. For this reason, the [thing] known of God is revealed amoung them, for God revealed [it] to them. For from[the]creation of [the] world His invisible [attributes] are plainly seen, being understood by the [things] made, both His eternal power and divinity, so that they are without excuse. Analytical-Literal Translation by Gary F. Zeolla....(the words in [   ] are words added to greek for readablity in modern English usage.)

Basically even though an someone  may never have know about Jesus or Moses, God has built into everyone an ability to know God just from the world around him. You have been fortunate to not only know about Jesus , but you now have been show the path to salvation as defined by the Bible. You have even been show where to get some of the concerns you have raised answered. (See my previous post).

You can also get a lot of good answers fromJosh McDowell's book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" or a easy to read book to help you understand often misunderstood verses is "735 Baffling Bible Questions Answered" by Larry Richards.

Now that you have all the information to make a decision what will you do?
You may not want to answer me,(I found that I am refered to as a troll after being invited to be a part of this site...lol) BUT you will be held accountable for all that you now know and have been exposed to in the last few days.
I will pray for you that God would chose you to be one of his elect. Then we can get together in heaven and go shooting, wonder what type of gun Jesus would shoot?

Quoted: Do what your Father says and a childs life is safer. Don't listen to what your Father says and a child puts themselves in danger. Some children won't listen until they have endangered themselves and realize they need their Father and seek him out for protection. A loving Father takes them back. A child that has learned their lesson will appreciate it. This grandfather is relieved that he still has a Father to guide him although Pops has been dead a long time. GM

nice sentiment GM

It would be impossible to have faith in a God that would let everyone into Heaven whether they were good or evil.  To do so would be to believe that good and evil are the same, and we all know in our deepest hearts that this is not true.

He will judge all according to their own works: Rev 20:

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

He has provided a way by which all can hear the truth, all can accept it, and all can follow Him.  Those who choose not to would not like it in heaven, so He has prepared other places for them.  His plan is perfect, it is complete, and there are no accidents in it.

-grommet

Quoted: It would be impossible to have faith in a God that would let everyone into Heaven whether they were good or evil.  To do so would be to believe that good and evil are the same, and we all know in our deepest hearts that this is not true. He will judge all according to their own works: Rev 20: [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. He has provided a way by which all can hear the truth, all can accept it, and all can follow Him.  Those who choose not to would not like it in heaven, so He has prepared other places for them.  His plan is perfect, it is complete, and there are no accidents in it. -grommet

Do you assert that there has never been anyone throughout history who has died and never heard of Jesus? I guess heaven is mostly filled with white Americans?

Quoted: Think Man Think!!!!

That's right - God never says, "Shut up and believe."  In the book of Isaiah He says, "Come now, let us reason together."

The main stumbling block is that the things of God cannot be grasped with our puny human intellects.  It takes discernment provided by the Holy Spirit to begin to understand these things.

I had many of the same misconceptions before becoming a Christian.  

What kind of asshole God would condemn someone (his children) to eternal darkness just because they didn't believe in him???

Not just because they didn't believe in Him, but because they made a decision of their will to reject the gift of grace, forgiveness, and salvation that He freely offered them.

Don't blame Him.

God is supposed to be our all compassionate, all loving father. We are ALL going to Heaven in the next world. No matter what. It is in this shithole world that we will suffer.

Another example of people choosing the attributes of God that they are comfortable with, more "And man created God in his own image" nonsense.

He is indeed loving and compassionate, but He is also holy, righteous, and just.

If He were to ignore sin and rebellion He would cease to be holy and righteous, being reduced (by your standard) to some dottering old grandfather who doesn't really care what you do because he doesn't apply any firm standards of right and wrong.  

It may be comfortable to imagine a fuzzy, impotent god like that, but I assure you, that's not who He is.

Quoted: If He were to ignore sin and rebellion He would cease to be holy and righteous, being reduced (by your standard) to some dottering old grandfather who doesn't really care what you do because he doesn't apply any firm standards of right and wrong.   It may be comfortable to imagine a fuzzy, impotent god like that, but I assure you, that's not who He is.

I have seen that misconception a few times, universal salvation does not imply all sins are equal or that God ignores sin.  It simply states that there is not infinite punishment for finite sins.   Hell is a purifying process to cleanse you of your sin and allow entry into heaven.  

Its similar to the Catholic purgatory but all men are put through the process, not just Christians.

Quoted: Dino, to anyone with a shred of grey matter, that turnaround is a philosophical box that is impossible to get out of, but to John Wayne and alot of Christians on this board, it's no such thing. Because in every example you gave of an innocent, they feel nothing for that person - because it's not them or someone they care about. That's where Christianity meets its ugly, human selfishness.

Some day I pray that you will quit spewing damnable lies about what I and other people believe. I don't run around telling people what you believe or care about. Perhaps you should consider extending me the same bloody courtesy!

Have you ever actually had a relative murdered? Some of us have. How DARE you say that I don't "feel" anything for the innocent person!

YOUR STATEMENTS ARE WITHOUT EVEN THE TINIEST AMMOUNT OF TRUTH WHATSOEVER.

The question posed in the initial post was how one reconciles the situation posted with Christian principle. Christian principle states CLEARLY that murder, torture, and rape are sins. Period. Anyone who is guilty of murder is guilty of a horrible sin before God. Period.

But slander (such as the slander YOU put forth...) is ALSO a sin. Adultery is ALSO a sin. Christ came in this world SPECIFICALLY to make a way by which men's sins could be forgiven and they could once again be in right relationship with their creator. Whatever their sin, they CAN BE FORGIVEN.

The murderer who can realize his sin and cry out to God for mercy will obtain salvation, while the person who refuses to recognize his sin and who insists that he is good enough to enter heaven because he never killed anybody (ignoring, of course, the legion of sins he HAS comitted) will reject the only means of redemption and will suffer the consequences of that choice.

Christians in general, and this one in particular, happen to care a GREAT DEAL about innocent life. That is why I am involved in the fight against abortion, because life can hardly get more innocent than a baby who has yet to leave the sanctuary of the womb. It is why I and others of my faith have given to relief efforts around the world for disasters in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, and even Iran. It is why I and others seek to reform the laws of the nation so that an intruder who breaks into your home at 3 am with a gun cannot use the legal system to rob you if you shoot him in self defense.

I may be guilty of many things, but not giving a damn about the innocent people harmed by the sinful decisions of wicked men is not one of them. The difference is that when I see the wickedness of men I don't crave revenge because I am guilty of wickedness in my own right. I may not have murdered, raped, or tortured anyone, but I have done wrong. When I see the wrong others do, I see my own wrong along with it.

Christ extended mercy to me despite my wrong, and He stands willing to do the same for even those who murder, rape, and torture. The difficulty comes in that those who commit such crimes are usually so hard hearted to begin with that not even The Almighty can penetrate their conceit.  

When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards

Describing the Christian faith as a "shitty house of cards" would seem to me a textbook example of trolling.

Gunnut? Ruling please?

where even the devout Buddhist, even the Native Americans, even the unspoiled children of the rainforest tribes who have never seen a white face all burn in hell for never accepting their savior, Jesus Christ. And, worse, by that same stance, the most vile humans are allowed into the loving folds of Heaven by repenting.

Firstly, who are you to decide what is "vile" and what is not?

Secondly, you still seem to persist in what now appears to be a williful ignorance about what repentance is.

Quoted: When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards Describing the Christian faith as a "shitty house of cards" would seem to me a textbook example of trolling. Gunnut? Ruling please?

to be fair, he was saying the belief that  a loving God would condemn good Budhists and Muslims to hell is a shitty house of cards.    That is not a belief shared by all Christians, so it is hardly a condemnation of all Christians.

If its ok for Arowneragain to ridicule my faith by saying "If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly out of my butt" then I can't see how the comment above is in the wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards Describing the Christian faith as a "shitty house of cards" would seem to me a textbook example of trolling. Gunnut? Ruling please? to be fair, he was saying the belief that  a loving God would condemn good Budhists and Muslims to hell is a shitty house of cards.    That is not a belief shared by all Christians, so it is hardly a condemnation of all Christians. If its ok for Arowneragain to ridicule my faith by saying "If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly out of my butt" then I can't see how the comment above is in the wrong.

Then I guess the basic question is whether a person can reject the salvation offered by God through faith in Jesus and still get to heaven.

If the answer is yes, then Jesus' suffering, crucifixion, and death were the cruelest joke in history, because the reason behind it was that we needed an Savior, not that a Savior would be a nice-to-have, but optional kind of thing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards Describing the Christian faith as a "shitty house of cards" would seem to me a textbook example of trolling. Gunnut? Ruling please? to be fair, he was saying the belief that  a loving God would condemn good Budhists and Muslims to hell is a shitty house of cards.    That is not a belief shared by all Christians, so it is hardly a condemnation of all Christians. If its ok for Arowneragain to ridicule my faith by saying "If UU's are correct, monkeys will fly out of my butt" then I can't see how the comment above is in the wrong. Then I guess the basic question is whether a person can reject the salvation offered by God through faith in Jesus and still get to heaven. If the answer is yes, then Jesus' suffering, crucifixion, and death were the cruelest joke in history, because the reason behind it was that we needed an Savior, not that a Savior would be a nice-to-have, but optional kind of thing.

That is one way to look at it.  Another way is that His sacrifice was complete and His mercy and grace  so all-encompassing that they cover even those who have never heard of Him or don't  believe in Him.

Biblical Proofs of Universal Salvation

Quoted: Then I guess the basic question is whether a person can reject the salvation offered by God through faith in Jesus and still get to heaven. If the answer is yes, then Jesus' suffering, crucifixion, and death were the cruelest joke in history, because the reason behind it was that we needed an Savior, not that a Savior would be a nice-to-have, but optional kind of thing.

That's assuming that he was even the son of God at all, or that he even existed.  I am not saying he wasn't God, I am just very skeptical of such claims.

I am not seeing many answers to the questions posed in this thread, just angry ranting.  I assume that Hitler and the Nazis are burning in hell alongside the Jews?  Of course no one alive could answer this question for sure, but according to the belief systems of some here it appears to be the case.  

As for the forum rules....  Are Christians allowed to call the beliefs of others foolish and not be considered trolls? I know "shitty house of cards" is kind of a rude way to describe someone else's belief system, but I feel like if it was said by a Christian to someone else, there would not be a problem.

Quoted: Some day I pray that you will quit spewing damnable lies about what I and other people believe. I don't run around telling people what you believe or care about. Perhaps you should consider extending me the same bloody courtesy!

So, if I'm lying, then you are admitting that the damnation of non-christians throughout antiquity is a falsehood?? That God doesn't cast people who never knew Jesus Christ into the pit of fire?

That was my contention, so if I'm spewing damnable lies, bucko, let's hear what you DO BELIEVE.

have you ever actually had a relative murdered? Some of us have. How DARE you say that I don't "feel" anything for the innocent person!

Yes, I've lost people close to me tragically, and had to wrestle with the big questions all the while. However, I don't pretend to know their fate. I just trust that the God I know isn't as judgemental and HUMAN as yours.

Look, I don't know you....you might be a great guy in real life or a pious asswipe. Dunno. All I have to go on is the dogma you continue to spit out, and that dogma has said over and over and over again there is ONLY ONE WAY TO GOD. If you believe, in your heart, that only those who have known Jesus are saved, then someone who died without Jesus in their heart is bound for hell. And, obviously that would include people you lost who didn't accept Jesus.

YOUR STATEMENTS ARE WITHOUT EVEN THE TINIEST AMMOUNT OF TRUTH WHATSOEVER.

And yours are? How so? You have a Bible. So do I.  You believe it, you quote it. I already know the verses. Your truths aren't truths to me, and vice versa. You don't respect my beliefs whatsoever, and I'm inclined to reciprocate. There's no mistruths here, just a common disprespect.

But slander (such as the slander YOU put forth...) is ALSO a sin. Adultery is ALSO a sin. Christ came in this world SPECIFICALLY to make a way by which men's sins could be forgiven and they could once again be in right relationship with their creator. Whatever their sin, they CAN BE FORGIVEN. The murderer who can realize his sin and cry out to God for mercy will obtain salvation, while the person who refuses to recognize his sin and who insists that he is good enough to enter heaven because he never killed anybody (ignoring, of course, the legion of sins he HAS comitted) will reject the only means of redemption and will suffer the consequences of that choice. Christians in general, and this one in particular, happen to care a GREAT DEAL about innocent life. That is why I am involved in the fight against abortion, because life can hardly get more innocent than a baby who has yet to leave the sanctuary of the womb. It is why I and others of my faith have given to relief efforts around the world for disasters in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, and even Iran. It is why I and others seek to reform the laws of the nation so that an intruder who breaks into your home at 3 am with a gun cannot use the legal system to rob you if you shoot him in self defense. I may be guilty of many things, but not giving a damn about the innocent people harmed by the sinful decisions of wicked men is not one of them. The difference is that when I see the wickedness of men I don't crave revenge because I am guilty of wickedness in my own right. I may not have murdered, raped, or tortured anyone, but I have done wrong. When I see the wrong others do, I see my own wrong along with it. Christ extended mercy to me despite my wrong, and He stands willing to do the same for even those who murder, rape, and torture. The difficulty comes in that those who commit such crimes are usually so hard hearted to begin with that not even The Almighty can penetrate their conceit.

Gosh, that's all great, and you're such a swell Christian guy. But again, is there only ONE WAY TO GOD? And, specifically, is your way the ONLY WAY?

And, again, is every Buddhist, every Innuit, every Pagan, every Daoist, every other person who is devout and lives a decent life on this planet going to roast because they do not follow YOUR WAY???

When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards

Describing the Christian faith as a "shitty house of cards" would seem to me a textbook example of trolling. Gunnut? Ruling please?

Boy, your feelings are hurt, aren't they?

The "shitty house of cards" is the condition that exists when you are forced to reconcile that one shred of your dogma, if retracted, makes all the rest invalid, and vice versa. In this case, if you say that God is willing to accept all into his graces, no matter their faith, then that pretty much nullifies a whole lot of the Bible's teachings - even tho by sticking to the "only one way" doctrine, you have cast millions of innocent people into hell.

I'm not trolling Christians, I'm picking apart what I believe is a moronic tradition and it's a HUMAN problem, not one with Jesus or God.

where even the devout Buddhist, even the Native Americans, even the unspoiled children of the rainforest tribes who have never seen a white face all burn in hell for never accepting their savior, Jesus Christ. And, worse, by that same stance, the most vile humans are allowed into the loving folds of Heaven by repenting.

Firstly, who are you to decide what is "vile" and what is not? Secondly, you still seem to persist in what now appears to be a williful ignorance about what repentance is.

I'm very capable deciding what "vile" is. It's natures laws, and they were around before the Bible was. Creating unhappiness, murdering, cheating, stealing, corrupting, these are violations of a natural law, which creates discord amongst our species, and works against it. Ever wonder how a society that doesn't believe in the Bible still has morality? Look there for your answer. Right and wrong are self-evident.

So again, if all criminals who have sinned are bound for hell, as you have turned about and claimed now, even if they have TRULY found Jesus and repented their sins, then does that change the stuff about innocents. I mean, if there really is cosmic justice and a born-again serial killer roasts (which I like), then that would mean that every soul ever born who doesn't commit aggregious sins still gets to heaven, right? I hope so, cause I haven't committed a big sin.

There, happy now? I have cleared it all up for you. I'm not slandering you, even if your girly pants are in a knot, we now understand that I'm questioning the dogma that YOU INSIST on arguing with. I'm also questioning the Bible, which seems illogical, unfair, and silly. And, I'm questioning how people can talk themselves into believing something that demands callousness about those different from themselves.

No lies here, partner, just questions. And, as always, you give me answers. Wrong answers, but answers none the less.

Quoted: So, if I'm lying, then you are admitting that the damnation of non-christians throughout antiquity is a falsehood?? That God doesn't cast people who never knew Jesus Christ into the pit of fire? That was my contention, so if I'm spewing damnable lies, bucko, let's hear what you DO BELIEVE.

You said:

Because in every example you gave of an innocent, they feel nothing for that person - because it's not them or someone they care about

THAT is stupidity to a level only expressable in scientific notation.

Like I said, quit yapping about what I "feel nothing" about.

Look, I don't know you....you might be a great guy in real life or a pious asswipe. Dunno. All I have to go on is the dogma you continue to spit out, and that dogma has said over and over and over again there is ONLY ONE WAY TO GOD. If you believe, in your heart, that only those who have known Jesus are saved, then someone who died without Jesus in their heart is bound for hell. And, obviously that would include people you lost who didn't accept Jesus.

What in the name of Zeus are you babbling about???

My contention was with your silly statement that Christians are unconcerned for the lives of the innocent while looking to excuse the worst scumbags on the planet.

At best it was a damnably silly thing to say. At worst, it was slanderous.  

And yours are? How so? You have a Bible. So do I.  You believe it, you quote it. I already know the verses. Your truths aren't truths to me, and vice versa. You don't respect my beliefs whatsoever, and I'm inclined to reciprocate. There's no mistruths here, just a common disprespect.

Again, you completely missed the point of my post.

Gosh, that's all great, and you're such a swell Christian guy. But again, is there only ONE WAY TO GOD? And, specifically, is your way the ONLY WAY?

Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. Period.

That isn't my idea.

I didn't come up with it.

If I were to arrange things in the way I liked best, they would look dramatically different than Christianity. Frankly that whole "love thy enemies" stuff would never appear in something I designed.

And, again, is every Buddhist, every Innuit, every Pagan, every Daoist, every other person who is devout and lives a decent life on this planet going to roast because they do not follow YOUR WAY???

It isn't mine.

Christ said what He said and did what He did. If they have a problem with what God set forth, they can take it up with Him.

Boy, your feelings are hurt, aren't they?

No.

My feelings cannot be "hurt" by people on the internet.

That being said, if you think I am going to sit by and allow someone to claim that Christians don't give a damn about the innocent (such as you said) without challenge, then you are incorrect in your assumptions.

Hate Christians and what we stand for all you wish. Disagree all you wish. But refrain from saying such damnably silly things.

The "shitty house of cards" is the condition that exists when you are forced to reconcile that one shred of your dogma, if retracted, makes all the rest invalid, and vice versa. In this case, if you say that God is willing to accept all into his graces, no matter their faith, then that pretty much nullifies a whole lot of the Bible's teachings - even tho by sticking to the "only one way" doctrine, you have cast millions of innocent people into hell.

I believe what the Bible says. No more, no less, and I never claimed to believe anything other than that in this thread.

My response, again, was directed at your particularly silly statement that I have previously quoted.

I'm not trolling Christians, I'm picking apart what I believe is a moronic tradition and it's a HUMAN problem, not one with Jesus or God.

By all means, think what you wish.

Just don't say such a damnably silly thing again.

I'm very capable deciding what "vile" is.

No, you are not.

You can tell us what you think is vile, but your definition does not necessarily match up with what God's definitions of vile would be.

So again, if all criminals who have sinned are bound for hell, as you have turned about and claimed now, even if they have TRULY found Jesus and repented their sins, then does that change the stuff about innocents. I mean, if there really is cosmic justice and a born-again serial killer roasts (which I like), then that would mean that every soul ever born who doesn't commit aggregious sins still gets to heaven, right? I hope so, cause I haven't committed a big sin.

I never said ANYTHING like that.

I said that all men have sinned, regardless of how "big" they think their sin is. God made a way of repentence through Christ. The TRULY REPENTANT can find mercy no matter how big their sin is, but those who reject the only means of salvation will be eternally seperated from God BY THEIR OWN CHOICE, regardless of how "small" they think their sin is.

There, happy now? I have cleared it all up for you. I'm not slandering you, even if your girly pants are in a knot, we now understand that I'm questioning the dogma that YOU INSIST on arguing with. I'm also questioning the Bible, which seems illogical, unfair, and silly. And, I'm questioning how people can talk themselves into believing something that demands callousness about those different from themselves.

Callousness?

Perhaps in the fifty or so times you claim to have read the Bible you could have picked up on a few things like "love your neighbor as yourself"?? Perhaps you should read it 51 times and you might pick up on what you missed before.

Christians do not delight in seeing anyone lost. But neither do they have the power to override the will of another. If a person is bound and determined to reject the Gospel, there is little I can do for them. They have made their decision and must live with that.

That isn't callousness. That is reality.

No lies here, partner, just questions. And, as always, you give me answers. Wrong answers, but answers none the less.

Again, next time you decide to mention how I and others who believe as I "feel nothing for that person" you should just keep those thoughts to yourself.

Quoted: Christians do not delight in seeing anyone lost.

Click on the search engine, rewind about a year, and see the posts your 'bretheren' wrote about the tsunami.

Quoted: Quoted: Christians do not delight in seeing anyone lost. Click on the search engine, rewind about a year, and see the posts your 'bretheren' wrote about the tsunami.

+1

Quoted: blah blah blah, midirection, veiled anger, blah blah blah.

You bore me, I'm done with you.

Quoted:   Because in every example you gave of an innocent, they feel nothing for that person - because it's not them or someone they care about. That's where Christianity meets its ugly, human selfishness. When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards where even the devout Buddhist, even the Native Americans, even the unspoiled children of the rainforest tribes who have never seen a white face all burn in hell for never accepting their savior, Jesus Christ. And, worse, by that same stance, the most vile humans are allowed into the loving folds of Heaven by repenting.

The Church does not teach that members of other religions cannot ever enter into Heaven, which is in keeping with God's justice. And yes, God shows mercy to those who with a contrite heart ask for it.

Quoted: Quoted:   Because in every example you gave of an innocent, they feel nothing for that person - because it's not them or someone they care about. That's where Christianity meets its ugly, human selfishness. When you ask a Christian, "what about all the other religions?", they sputter and are forced into that shitty house of cards where even the devout Buddhist, even the Native Americans, even the unspoiled children of the rainforest tribes who have never seen a white face all burn in hell for never accepting their savior, Jesus Christ. And, worse, by that same stance, the most vile humans are allowed into the loving folds of Heaven by repenting. The Church does not teach that members of other religions cannot ever enter into Heaven, which is in keeping with God's justice. And yes, God shows mercy to those who with a contrite heart ask for it.

Oh really.

Does the Bible say, in plain English, that a member of a religion (or no religion) who lives a clean, decent life and never acknowledges a Christian God may enter into heaven?

I ask rhetorically, I've been told in plain Enlish, NO. And, I've read the Bible and it's pretty implicit about the matter.

So, a Tibetan Monk, devout and pure, is gonna burn and we both know it if the Bible is true. So will anyone who never knew a Christian God goverened them (if he really does).

Hence, I think the Bible is nothing but a book and not the true word of a compassionate God.

Quoted: Click on the search engine, rewind about a year, and see the posts your 'bretheren' wrote about the tsunami.

You mean the threads where I wrote this:

Quoted: There may indeed be people over there that will hate us no matter what. But that doesn't justify us writing them off. Right now our denomination has at least one missionary that is missing, many national leaders, and God only knows how many members. Not all of these people were evil and filled with the violent lies of the Zarqauis and OBLs of the world. In fact, I will go so far as to say that a great many of them were ordinary decent people with no malice in their heart for anyone. Jesus said that we are to love our enemies and pray for those that despitefully use us. Even if the aid I have contributed goes to someone who despises me and my freedom, I am still happy to give it. They may be violent and full of anger and hatred. But I am not.

Or this:

Quoted: That is exactly the thought I had when I saw that picture. Great gravy! How selfish can a person be? Would not surviving such an event make you understand how much you owe your life to a higher power, and that maybe you should find a way to be about His buisness? Or at least to have pity on the people you see in misery and do what you can to help them? How cold blooded can people be????

archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=309211&page=2


Or how about this one?

Quoted: Why is this being brought up again? Are people unaware that there are a ton of Christians in these effected places? Christian missionaries? That literally hundreds and thousands are converting from the ROP to Christianity every day? And that the largest numbers of people there just want to live their life in peace with no thought of doing us harm? Are they unaware that there are small children over there who are not hopeless? Are they unaware that entire segments of humanity are not simply flushable? I am no bleeding heart, but for pete's sake. This kind of crap has gone on long enough. I don't know what's worse, the crimes perpetrated in these countries in the name of islam/greed/whatever, or the people over here that somehow think that this kind of disaster was "deserved" and "about time." For crying out loud, listen to yourselves. A great many of the people that were killed in this disaster did not deserve it and were no threat to you or me. Deal with it.

archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=313201

Not to mention that lots of my bretheren DID get it, and sent hundreds of millions in aid to the area. Our denomination is STILL working with the tsunami victims on top of the Katrina victims and lots of other victims that never make the evening news.

So much for not giving a darn about innocent people!

Quoted: Quoted: I can't always predict precisely what God will do, but I know He will do what's right. ANd this is where I lose my faith.... My grandmother suffered trough cance for several years, and she was a very devout woman. And various other things that have happened in my life. I have no faith anymore, and doubt that I ever will......

Question....do you beleive God gave your grandmother cancer? or just didn't cure her or ease her pain? From my limited understanding of Christainity this life on the earth is really just a proving ground for the afterlife. God didn't give your grandmother cancer anymore then a general wants his troops to die on the battleground.

Quoted: You bore me, I'm done with you.

I can understand how you might find someone calling you on the carpet for saying outrageously stupid things boring.

Lessons in humility are never very entertaining and most people would rather gouge out their eyes with a grapefruit spoon than admit they are wrong.

You are no exception to the rule.

Quoted: Oh really. Does the Bible say, in plain English, that a member of a religion (or no religion) who lives a clean, decent life and never acknowledges a Christian God may enter into heaven? I ask rhetorically, I've been told in plain Enlish, NO. And, I've read the Bible and it's pretty implicit about the matter. So, a Tibetan Monk, devout and pure, is gonna burn and we both know it if the Bible is true. So will anyone who never knew a Christian God goverened them (if he really does). Hence, I think the Bible is nothing but a book and not the true word of a compassionate God.

Your problem is that you seem to have purchased the protestant myth hook line and sinker that the Bible and Bible alone is the only source for Christian faith, morals, and doctrine. No where does the Bible make that claim. In any event a silly and untenable one since there was not even a Bible for Christians to use for almost 400 years.  

Quoted: Quoted: Your problem is that you seem to have purchased the protestant myth hook line and sinker that the Bible and Bible alone is the only source for Christian faith, morals, and doctrine. No where does the Bible make that claim. In any event a silly and untenable one since there was not even a Bible for Christians to use for almost 400 years.

To be a tad more specific, the "books" collected in the Bible were manuscripts that were copied and circulated among the churches for several centuries before assembled into the collection we know today as the Bible.

You have to show him how Christ has changed you,

You have to witness to him,

The words of Christ are true, he will in fact be in hell if he does not come to faith in Christ, while you struggle with this now, and we all do, I am sure we will see things differently on the flip side,  be sure of this, that Gods wisdom and plan is perfect

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Knowing this, that Christ is the ONLY WAY to God, it is your responsibility as a believer in Christ to try your best through Christ to save what is lost,  in a large part by being the example, you may end up being the most "Christlike" figure some people ever see outside of the Bible.  Then when they see something different in you, for instance a "peace that surpassed understanding", they begin to ask questions, and you answer with the words of truth, that Jesus has been given all authority on heaven and earth, so why fret

As a Christian, we harvest what we have not sewn, but in the end, just be thankful that YOU ARE ONE OF GOD'S CHOSEN, because in fact this is all we truly have power over, the fate of our own souls.  But be assured that God does not make mistakes, and noone who God chooses to give to Jesus will be lost.  You are indeed blessed if you believe on Christ and do the will of the Father.  Yet part of that "will of the Father" is that you seek to save that which is lost.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

If he does not see the truth that Christ is Lord, then, at some point, his fate is in his and God's own hands

ACTS 18:5-6 Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. F64 6 But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility.

Quoted: Your problem is that you seem to have purchased the protestant myth hook line and sinker that the Bible and Bible alone is the only source for Christian faith, morals, and doctrine. No where does the Bible make that claim. In any event a silly and untenable one since there was not even a Bible for Christians to use for almost 400 years.

If you know your Christian history, you know that the writings of the Apostles which we now have in the New Testament as well as the Hebrew scriptures in the form of the LXX could be found among all the pre-Constantinian churches, as could other letters and writings from the Apostles that we no longer have. (Such as Paul's third letter to the Corinthian church...)

The Bible is the definative canon of divinely inspired writings from God's chosen people that recounts the life and doctrines of Christ.

It is the judge of everything else.

Quoted: If you know your Christian history, you know that the writings of the Apostles which we now have in the New Testament as well as the Hebrew scriptures in the form of the LXX could be found among all the pre-Constantinian churches, as could other letters and writings from the Apostles that we no longer have. (Such as Paul's third letter to the Corinthian church...) The Bible is the definative canon of divinely inspired writings from God's chosen people that recounts the life and doctrines of Christ. It is the judge of everything else.

It nowhere says that it is the judge of everything else, nowhere. There is not one place that it makes this claim.  The problem is that the Apostolic writings were not grouped together into a canon and there was never any command by Christ to or any of the Apostles to ever do so. There simply is no denying that it was the Catholic Church that took upon itself the task.

Quoted: It nowhere says that it is the judge of everything else, nowhere.

\

Test the spirits?

All scripture is given by God and is useful for reproof, doctrine, edification?

No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation?

Any of those ringing a bell?

Jesus and the Apostles CONSTANTLY used scripture as a rule for life, doctrine, and for the governing of the church. They had a rather high view of scripture....

Canonical lists, by the way, appeared as early as 150 AD, well before Constantine was on the scene....

Quoted:
Test the spirits?
Has nothing to do with the Bible being the sole rule of faith.

All scripture is given by God and is useful for reproof, doctrine, edification?
Has nothing to do with the Bible being the sole doctrine of the Chruch.

No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation?
Contains nothing to even suggest that Bible alone is to be the sole guide for Christians.


Jesus and the Apostles CONSTANTLY used scripture as a rule for life, doctrine, and for the governing of the church. They had a rather high view of scripture....
They also never said to put together a Bible and to only use it only for deciding doctrines and rules of faith.

Canonical lists, by the way, appeared as early as 150 AD, well before Constantine was on the scene....
Yes, lots of lists. It was the Bishops of the Catholic Church that created the Bible, not simply lots of lists.

Quoted: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Thank you for illustrating my point a few posts back.

Some Christians I have encountered in my life, the more repugnant ones anyway, make this particular tenet of their faith a singular weapon to shake at anyone outside of the Christian faith.

If you believe John, sincerely, then you have a fantastic moral dilemna because only a tiny sliver of humanity is lucky enough to see the gates of His Kingdom, and all else are fucked due to circumstances beyond their control, yet under the watch of an omnipotent deity. This includes people who have never seen Christ, heard his name, or met a white face. It includes those brought up to believe in Sikhism, Buddhism, Shinto, on and on and on. Laughable.

I happen to think that idea is rubbish. And, if I'm right, so does God.

Quoted: Quoted: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Thank you for illustrating my point a few posts back. Some Christians I have encountered in my life, the more repugnant ones anyway, make this particular tenet of their faith a singular weapon to shake at anyone outside of the Christian faith. If you believe John, sincerely, then you have a fantastic moral dilemna because only a tiny sliver of humanity is lucky enough to see the gates of His Kingdom, and all else are fucked due to circumstances beyond their control, yet under the watch of an omnipotent deity. This includes people who have never seen Christ, heard his name, or met a white face. It includes those brought up to believe in Sikhism, Buddhism, Shinto, on and on and on. Laughable. I happen to think that idea is rubbish. And, if I'm right, so does God.

I doubt very much that God thinks God is rubbish. Your problem is that you equate the fact that no one is saved but through Christ with being a Christian.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Thank you for illustrating my point a few posts back. Some Christians I have encountered in my life, the more repugnant ones anyway, make this particular tenet of their faith a singular weapon to shake at anyone outside of the Christian faith. If you believe John, sincerely, then you have a fantastic moral dilemna because only a tiny sliver of humanity is lucky enough to see the gates of His Kingdom, and all else are fucked due to circumstances beyond their control, yet under the watch of an omnipotent deity. This includes people who have never seen Christ, heard his name, or met a white face. It includes those brought up to believe in Sikhism, Buddhism, Shinto, on and on and on. Laughable. I happen to think that idea is rubbish. And, if I'm right, so does God. I doubt very much that God thinks God is rubbish. Your problem is that you equate the fact that no one is saved but through Christ with being a Christian.

I don't equate anything of the sort. I know MANY Christians hold that belief, and have not been shy about condemning me to a life of Hell for thinking differently. Make of that as you will. As for what God thinks, I don't look to books for what God thinks, and I don't ask ignorant men for his wisdom either....there lies the difference between me and a lot of Christians. God showed me in a way that I would understand, that PEOPLE are not to be trusted with matters of God. So, yes, God does think some of the messages people attribute to him are rubbish. I believe that, just as strongly as you claim to believe in whatever it is you do.

I know this is a VERY complicated idea for you to wrap your head around, but try. I've said it many times before, but to Christians it must sound like Japanese. I think God had ZERO to do with the Bible, with Jesus, with churches, with anything that we worship today as religion. I think every bit of religion is man scrambling to understand what he's terrified of, not what really is. God, I've come to trust, wants us to live WITHOUT answers or instruction manuals, and still be the best of ourselves. That's what I have faith in. Scandalous, isn't it?

So, in that light, it's VERY easy for me to disassociate anything the Bible has to say about anything and even more easy for me to hear the ramblings of Christians as mere parotted dogma. The Bible is an important book, full of meaningful lessons and some really goofy stories too. It's a historical document, but to me it's just words some men in a desert wrote a long time ago, with a stunningly small view of the world and a lot to fear about what they didn't understand.

I used to have guilt about my beliefs, because people around me made me feel as if I was betraying them, or my family, or my own well being. But, when I asked God to show me the way, he calmed my doubts and through an odd, and deeply personal way, gave me the answer I needed - which was no answer at all. You may never have a relationship like that with God, or need to, or even know what I'm talking about. But, trust me on this, talking to me about how great Christianity is, or if I only understood it better, or if I could only accept Jesus is fruitless. No man alive has the power to convince me that he, or the Bible has answers, because God has told me neither is the case.

Quoted: I don't equate anything of the sort. I know MANY Christians hold that belief, and have not been shy about condemning me to a life of Hell for thinking differently. Make of that as you will. As for what God thinks, I don't look to books for what God thinks, and I don't ask ignorant men for his wisdom either....there lies the difference between me and a lot of Christians. God showed me in a way that I would understand, that PEOPLE are not to be trusted with matters of God. So, yes, God does think some of the messages people attribute to him are rubbish. I believe that, just as strongly as you claim to believe in whatever it is you do. I know this is a VERY complicated idea for you to wrap your head around, but try. I've said it many times before, but to Christians it must sound like Japanese. I think God had ZERO to do with the Bible, with Jesus, with churches, with anything that we worship today as religion. I think every bit of religion is man scrambling to understand what he's terrified of, not what really is. God, I've come to trust, wants us to live WITHOUT answers or instruction manuals, and still be the best of ourselves. That's what I have faith in. Scandalous, isn't it? So, in that light, it's VERY easy for me to disassociate anything the Bible has to say about anything and even more easy for me to hear the ramblings of Christians as mere parotted dogma. The Bible is an important book, full of meaningful lessons and some really goofy stories too. It's a historical document, but to me it's just words some men in a desert wrote a long time ago, with a stunningly small view of the world and a lot to fear about what they didn't understand. I used to have guilt about my beliefs, because people around me made me feel as if I was betraying them, or my family, or my own well being. But, when I asked God to show me the way, he calmed my doubts and through an odd, and deeply personal way, gave me the answer I needed - which was no answer at all. You may never have a relationship like that with God, or need to, or even know what I'm talking about. But, trust me on this, talking to me about how great Christianity is, or if I only understood it better, or if I could only accept Jesus is fruitless. No man alive has the power to convince me that he, or the Bible has answers, because God has told me neither is the case.

The reason you had guilt about your beliefs was because they were stupid, shallow, and altogether complete nonsense. Sorry, but there it is.  And the reason you have come to accept this phony has all the depth of floor wax god is twofold. 1. You were never looking for God in the first place. 2. "Man cannot stand too much reality".

Quoted: The reason you had guilt about your beliefs was because they were stupid, shallow, and altogether complete nonsense. Sorry, but there it is.  And the reason you have come to accept this phony has all the depth of floor wax god is twofold. 1. You were never looking for God in the first place. 2. "Man cannot stand too much reality".

anytime you are discussing differing religious beliefs, one side can say the other's beliefs are "stupid, shallow, and altogether complete nonsense"

Its just considered bad manners to do so in a conversation involving members of multiple faiths.

Guys, no one is going to "win" in this thread by vanquishing other peoples' beliefs.  At the end of this some of us are still going to believe very diferent things and although I know some of you are able without a doubt to state that one is true and another is false, I can't do that right now.  

Anyway, I think maybe forgiveness is part of what the original dilemma I posted hinges on.  To live like Christ would mean to forgive even the hypothetical murderous scum who rapes and murders your loved one.  I don't know if I could ever do that.

That brings me to the other part of my problem...

What *is* heaven??  And if I got there but members of my family are in hell instead because they didn't believe how could it still be heaven for me?  Wouldn't I be miserable knowing their fate?