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Posted: 12/15/2005 8:50:39 PM EDT
Do you think our Founding Fathers believed in God and founded America as a Christian nation?

One Nation, Under God
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:00:26 PM EDT
Believed in God = Yes

Founded the US as a Christian Nation = No

I think they completely believed in religious freedom. This is a secular nation.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:09:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:15:55 PM EDT by hunterwarrior]

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:
Believed in God = Yes

Founded the US as a Christian Nation = No

I think they completely believed in religious freedom. This is a secular nation.


Obviously you didn't read the article. The Supreme Court of 1892, which was physically in time closer to the founding of this country than you are, thought differently.

The Supreme Court Decision 1892—Church of the Holy Trinity vs. The United States: "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer (Jesus Christ) of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…. This is a religious people. This is historically true."
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:18:34 PM EDT
The USA was founded by Christians, but they didn't want 'gubment to declare a national religion because religious warfare forced people to settle here. The founders figured that religion was a personal choice and sought to limit 'gubment powers, specifically congressional power. America is still a Christian nation because of demographics and tradition. If you're not a Christian, tough! Get over it or move. You're not required to be a Christian, but you're not required to stay either. The end result is a secular system that makes room for non-Christians but it's all driven by a Christian voting bloc. It's wonderful that Christian values are compatible with other faiths and there's always a never ending stream of newborns and converts to Christianity.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:43:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hunterwarrior:

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:
Believed in God = Yes

Founded the US as a Christian Nation = No

I think they completely believed in religious freedom. This is a secular nation.


Obviously you didn't read the article. The Supreme Court of 1892, which was physically in time closer to the founding of this country than you are, thought differently.

The Supreme Court Decision 1892—Church of the Holy Trinity vs. The United States: "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer (Jesus Christ) of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…. This is a religious people. This is historically true."



I most certainly did read the article. It seemed to state that, the Supreme Court of 1892 felt it was a Christian Nation. It also pointed out that the FF where also Christians. Nowhere did it say the FF thought this nation should be soley a Christian Nation. If they felt that way I don't think they would have added that little provision called "the seperation of Church and State".

I'm sure most of us don't need reminded that the Supreme Court is not infallible. I think the eminent domain case from earlier this year should affirm that.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:45:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

Originally Posted By hunterwarrior:

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:
Believed in God = Yes

Founded the US as a Christian Nation = No

I think they completely believed in religious freedom. This is a secular nation.


Obviously you didn't read the article. The Supreme Court of 1892, which was physically in time closer to the founding of this country than you are, thought differently.

The Supreme Court Decision 1892—Church of the Holy Trinity vs. The United States: "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer (Jesus Christ) of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…. This is a religious people. This is historically true."



I most certainly did read the article. It seemed to state that, the Supreme Court of 1892 felt it was a Christian Nation. It also pointed out that the FF where also Christians. Nowhere did it say the FF thought this nation should be soley a Christian Nation. If they felt that way I don't think they would have added that little provision called "the seperation of Church and State".

I'm sure most of us don't need reminded that the Supreme Court is not infallible. I think the eminent domain case from earlier this year should affirm that.



as well as their lack of decision on 2nd Amendment rights, supporting the Jim Crow laws as constitutional, and Roe vs. Wade. The Supreme Court is a joke and should not be cited by people who actually want positive progressive change.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:46:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:48:15 PM EDT by hunterwarrior]

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
The USA was founded by Christians, but they didn't want 'gubment to declare a national religion because religious warfare forced people to settle here.


Wrong. They believed in freedom to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph which is the Judeo-Christian God Yahweh anyway you wanted or not at all. They had zero tollerance for those worshiping Buddha, Allah or Satan. What they didn't want is for the STATE to establish a formal denomination as STATE religion. ie Catholic, Quaker, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. Any faith that wasn't Christian was not considered a religion. I highly recommend you read: The Christian History of the Constitution of the United States of America

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Qunicy Adams

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:56:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:57:07 PM EDT by hunterwarrior]

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

If they felt that way I don't think they would have added that little provision called "the seperation of Church and State".


Please show me where the phrase "separation between church and state" appears in the constitution. It ain't there. It says "Congress shall make no law resecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:58:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:59:21 PM EDT by dreemweaver]

Originally Posted By hunterwarrior:

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

If they felt that way I don't think they would have added that little provision called "the seperation of Church and State".


Please show me where the phrase "separation between church and state" appears in the constitution. It ain't there. It says "Congress shall make no law resecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."



While I may not have quoted it verbatim, it seems you answered your original question by doing so.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:21:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

While I may not have quoted it verbatim, it seems you answered your original question by doing so.



England has recognized the Church of England as their official religion for centuries. The queen is the head of the church. Changes in church policies must be approved by the House of Lords.

The 19th Century Russian government had an alliance with the Russian Orthodox Church; after the revolution, Atheism became the new official "religion." They have since made strides to again give the Russian Orthodox Church special status.

The German government collects religious taxes from the public, and transfers them to the main Protestant and Catholic churches. The government also substantially finances these churches out of state funds.

The founding Fathers didn't want the state to establish a DENOMINATION, ie Quaker, Baptist, etc as a STATE religion like Europe had. They had NO PROBLEM with the integration of CHRISTIANITY within all public and government institutions.

History shows the intent and purpose of our founding fathers. Contemporary logic is wrong whenever it contradicts the clear explanations of those men who wrote the Constitution.

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools. 187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible. The money was printed, "One Nation Under God." Noah Webster wrote the dictionary with Bible verses explained so children could understand the words of God and know the truth of Jesus Christ. Webster even wrote a translation of the Bible for the American speaking people.

You could hardly find a school in America that wasn't Christian based with the Bible as its main text book until the 1830's. That was when a humanist named Horace Mann worked for ten years to deceive the state of Massachusetts to produce its own state supported schools and leave the Bible out of those schools. As a result of the attack upon children learning the truths of God and Salvation, the American Sunday School League was formed during that same decade so those children who were deprived could still get Bible knowledge.


Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:30:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hunterwarrior:

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

While I may not have quoted it verbatim, it seems you answered your original question by doing so.



England has recognized the Church of England as their official religion for centuries. The queen is the head of the church. Changes in church policies must be approved by the House of Lords.

The 19th Century Russian government had an alliance with the Russian Orthodox Church; after the revolution, Atheism became the new official "religion." They have since made strides to again give the Russian Orthodox Church special status.

The German government collects religious taxes from the public, and transfers them to the main Protestant and Catholic churches. The government also substantially finances these churches out of state funds.

The founding Fathers didn't want the state to establish a DENOMINATION, ie Quaker, Baptist, etc as a STATE religion like Europe had. They had NO PROBLEM with the integration of CHRISTIANITY within all public and government institutions.

History shows the intent and purpose of our founding fathers. Contemporary logic is wrong whenever it contradicts the clear explanations of those men who wrote the Constitution.

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools. 187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible. The money was printed, "One Nation Under God." Noah Webster wrote the dictionary with Bible verses explained so children could understand the words of God and know the truth of Jesus Christ. Webster even wrote a translation of the Bible for the American speaking people.

You could hardly find a school in America that wasn't Christian based with the Bible as its main text book until the 1830's. That was when a humanist named Horace Mann worked for ten years to deceive the state of Massachusetts to produce its own state supported schools and leave the Bible out of those schools. As a result of the attack upon children learning the truths of God and Salvation, the American Sunday School League was formed during that same decade so those children who were deprived could still get Bible knowledge.





I find it hard to believe they only had a problem with establishing denominations of a specific religion (Christianity) as a State religion. If this were the case they would not have used the word religion , they would have said denomination.

Is it really so hard for you to believe that not everyone wants religion in their goverment. It is a BAD thing. History has proven this.

I don't argue that this country has deep religious roots, that is obvious. Thankfully, we began seperating the ties early and continue to do so today.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:41:29 PM EDT
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
Patrick Henry 1765
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:49:40 PM EDT
Just for clarity I will say it one more time; Yes, most of the FF (if not all) were Christians. This means this nation was founded by Christians. However, they did NOT support a State sponsored religion.

I will end my contribution to this thread by saying; You are wrong, I am right.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:13:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:15:09 PM EDT by hunterwarrior]

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

I find it hard to believe they only had a problem with establishing denominations of a specific religion (Christianity) as a State religion. If this were the case they would not have used the word religion , they would have said denomination.


They did not see satanism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc as valid religions. They used the word religion the way we use the word denomination. Christianity is different from ALL other religions. Christians worship a living God that came to this earth, was killed and rose from the dead and currently sits at the right hand of God. ALL other religions have a founder that died and is still DEAD. That was the attitude of the founding fathers. Thus only the many denominations of Christianity were reasoned to be religions.

Don't take my word for it. Look it up. There is vast amount of literature preserved in this country that documents EXACTLY what the founding fathers thought about religion.


Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

Thankfully, we began seperating the ties early and continue to do so today.


It is this attitude that will cause this country to cease to be a great nation. The more we seperate ourselves from God the deeper into moral and spiritual bankruptcy we sink.

"Ever since the genesis of the war between light and darkness, between good and evil, between Lucifer and his armies and God, the enemy has known that even he must submit, even he must obey the Creator of all that is.

The enemy has also known that God’s faithfulness endures, and if man is faithful to God, God will be faithful to man. Then the devil found a loophole. Get man to distance himself from God, get man to reject his Creator, and as they wander away from the light of His love, they wander out of His sphere of protection. The enemy realized that God will not force His protection on a soul that rejects it, and with enough willful rejection the inevitable end becomes God leaving man to the desires of his own heart."

There is is not a more hopeless state than eternity without God. You won't know what you have lost until you are seperated from Him. Then you will spend eternity in hopeless regret. Eternal solitary confinement with ONLY your own thoughts and NO OUTSIDE stimulation that is not torment.

And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], . . . "choose you this day whom ye will serve; . . . but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:2, 15).
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:35:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:36:41 PM EDT by dreemweaver]

Originally Posted By hunterwarrior:

Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

I find it hard to believe they only had a problem with establishing denominations of a specific religion (Christianity) as a State religion. If this were the case they would not have used the word religion , they would have said denomination.


They did not see satanism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc as valid religions. They used the word religion the way we use the word denomination. Christianity is different from ALL other religions. Christians worship a living God that came to this earth, was killed and rose from the dead and currently sits at the right hand of God. ALL other religions have a founder that died and is still DEAD. That was the attitude of the founding fathers. Thus only the many denominations of Christianity were reasoned to be religions.

Don't take my word for it. Look it up. There is vast amount of literature preserved in this country that documents EXACTLY what the founding fathers thought about religion.


Originally Posted By dreemweaver:

Thankfully, we began seperating the ties early and continue to do so today.


It is this attitude that will cause this country to cease to be a great nation. The more we seperate ourselves from God the deeper into moral and spiritual bankruptcy we sink.

"Ever since the genesis of the war between light and darkness, between good and evil, between Lucifer and his armies and God, the enemy has known that even he must submit, even he must obey the Creator of all that is.

The enemy has also known that God’s faithfulness endures, and if man is faithful to God, God will be faithful to man. Then the devil found a loophole. Get man to distance himself from God, get man to reject his Creator, and as they wander away from the light of His love, they wander out of His sphere of protection. The enemy realized that God will not force His protection on a soul that rejects it, and with enough willful rejection the inevitable end becomes God leaving man to the desires of his own heart."

There is is not a more hopeless state than eternity without God. You won't know what you have lost until you are seperated from Him. Then you will spend eternity in hopeless regret. Eternal solitary confinement with ONLY your own thoughts and NO OUTSIDE stimulation that is not torment.

And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], . . . "choose you this day whom ye will serve; . . . but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:2, 15).



Ok, I have to interject one more time, because it is the above statement that absolutely pisses me off about all religious people. You DO NOT have to be of a specific, or even an organized religion to be moral or spiritual. Get off of your supersticious high horse and wake up. Because someone does not believe in a religion that was formed by highly uninformed, supersticious people DOES NOT mean that they are any less moral than those that do, or that those that do are better people. It is no mystery that these types of attitudes are why more people have fought and died in the name of religion; needlessly I might add.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:39:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 3:39:35 AM EDT by VA-gunnut]
I'll just end this one here.
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