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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:35:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 5:45:00 PM EDT by bfieldburt]
This is a cut and paste from a thread in the General Discussion Section. It's my reply to imq707, who I'm sure really is a good guy. I'm posting it because the "religious people are hypocrites" ideas sure comes up a lot and so many people sure seem to think it. My reply to his post is below.

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Originally Posted By imq707s:
I really don't like church at all. Every time I suckered into going I just feel like there are a bunch of hypocrites there. I guess I just don't like other people telling me how to live me life. I figure I'm a good person, and I treat others with respect.....that's probably a hell of a lot better than most of the people that regularly attend church. I'd rather be known by others as a "good person" than "he's that jerk that goes to church every Sunday".

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I agree with the last sentence here. However, let's look at the "hypocrites" argument for a sec. Lots of people call "religious" people hypocrites. Why? Because they see people who say one thing and don't live up to the beliefs they profess. Have you ever considered why? The assumption by most people who think of religious people as hypocrites is that they do it because they are harsh, and judgemental, and want to control others but not control themselves. This is probably true of some religious people. But, consider this....

Any decent system of self-improvement IS HARD. DARN HARD. So, this automatically makes most religious people hypocrites because they are trying to live up to ideals that usually require an entire lifetime to get good at.

So, calling them or thinking of them as hypocrites is like someone saying that they "believe" that anyone who owns a gun should practice with it and hit what they are shooting at. Then, you go to the range and see that person there practicing, and, because they aren't hitting the bull's eye every time, you say he or she is a hypocrite.

Now, one more thing to think about.

It is very easy for someone to think they are not a hypocrite if they aren't part of or on a challenging self-improvement program. It is easy to accomplish low goals. Then, by looking at people who are attempting things that are harder, that person can feel superior because "I'm not a hypocrite" like them.

NOTE: I only expect about 25% of the people who read this to get it. It is usually just easier to discount what I just said....it feels better on a guilty conscience.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:14:12 PM EDT
To be honest it is easy to see how a non-believer would think church folk are nothing but hypocrites.
Believers ARE NOT to hold non-believers to the same standards we try to hold ourselves.
As believers we try to do the right thing and live a life that is pleasing to God.
This is impossible as our best works are like filthy rags to the Man above.
I personally like Paul's approach as he often claimed himself as the greatest of all sinners.

While only God can truly know a man's heart, I feel those who go around pointing their "finger of condemnation" at people may be the most lost of all.



Link Posted: 12/12/2005 2:29:50 AM EDT
Can you think of a better place for hypocrites to be?

In church, right next to all the other sinners.


As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matthew 9:9-13)



Where else will they hear the Word that will lead them to repentance and new life?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:58:38 AM EDT

Good responses. However, in my experience these people that think church goers are hypocrites usually have no idea. Get them to name specifics and its almost always hearsay and prejudice.

Shok
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:01:03 AM EDT
bfieldburt,

I think you are right on the money. The original post that you responded to is a typical monologue of the nonbeliever. Those who have not experienced or attempted to experience God have no insight into the meaning of submission, the meaning of forgiveness, or the meaning of redemption.

Once you realize that we all fall short of the glory, the view of yourself and others changes rather drastically.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:08:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:22:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By QShok:
Good responses. However, in my experience these people that think church goers are hypocrites usually have no idea. Get them to name specifics and its almost always hearsay and prejudice.

Shok



people who drink, divorce, fornicate with women they are not married to and maybe gamble. Are church going people expected to behave well, or is saying "I'm saved" or "We're sinners" while doing the same stuff that non church going people do okay? Aren't the divorce rates the same for religious and non religious people? Does this matter?




<--wrings hands, acknowledges that Opus has a point, and hopes people will read what the penguin wrote and think about the consequences of being a hypocrite and how 10,000 posts about God can be negated by a single post bragging about sin.....



<---also admits to being a hypocrite at times, hopes to do better in the future.



obsession with homosexual related sin but the blind eye turned towards extramarital sex and divorce, which is far more prevelent than homosexuality, and more damaging to society.


Quite simply, it's called 'self-righteousness'.

Anyone who promotes or practices fornication/adultery (this includes the support of the porn industry, BTW) while at the same time claims that homosexuality is wrong can NOT use the Bible to back up the latter claim, as that same Bible condemns the former, and as such, they are scripturally forbidden from using the Bible to point at others until they deal with the fornication issue.

As such, one who engages in fonication/adultery while condemning homosexuality has only their own ideas to support their position.

This is the essence of self-righteousness.

It's also something the Church (read 'all of them') has refused to deal with.

I'm generally opposed to letting the church (little 'c') set itsdelf up as an authority figure in people's lives, as churches are prone to twist Scripture to suit an agenda. Having said that, the Church as a whole has fell woefully short in many areaS. we'll tolerate practicaly ANYTHING nowadays in the name of attracting a larger audience.


Many have forgotten the original meaning of the word 'church'........


Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:01:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 7:02:15 AM EDT by TWIRE]
Good points arowneragain and Aimless!

Unfortunately, it is illegal to point out inconsistencies such as this on the Religion Forum. You have now transgressed into personal attacks.

Seriously, I think that there is a difference between what you used to do and what you are doing. Having commited sins in the past and forsaking those ways is vastly different than saying 'I'm saved' then continuing a sinful lifestyle. This is a great point of differentiation between denominations. My Church believes that the actions of the converted sinners indicate your acceptance of Jesus Christ and salvation (Not that those actions merit salvation in ANY way).
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:06:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 7:10:17 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Church believes that the actions of the converted sinners indicate your acceptance of Jesus Christ and salvation (Not that those actions merit salvation in ANY way).



My church when I was a child taught the same thing, the UU Church I attend now has members who consider themselves Christians and feel the same way. I don't see anyting in the Bible that would give Christians an open license to continue sinning.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:13:40 AM EDT
tag, interesting thread y'all
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:24:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:


Unfortunately, it is illegal to point out inconsistencies such as this on the Religion Forum. You have now transgressed into personal attacks.




If I thought a brother was going in the wrong direction I'd send him an IM, not confront him in open forum for all to see.

Also, saying, "I see you doing X and I'm concerned because it can affect your witness to others" is not a personal attack like, "Younogoodfilthysinneryou'regoingstraightt­ohellwithoutpassingGo!"

That would be a personal attack.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:36:19 AM EDT
I cannot speak for other others. I know I am saved by the grace of God. Yet I am a hypocrite to make a quote " when I try to do what is right I do wrong". So rejoice in weakness so that you can understand the futile attempts of the flesh to do good. Without the holy spirit kicking me in the butt daily who knows where I would be.

IMO I will not stop being a hypocrite until the Lord takes me home. Only then will the sins of my flesh have no more power over me. Gee I guess if we were perfect we would not need a God or a savior.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:36:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By QShok:
Good responses. However, in my experience these people that think church goers are hypocrites usually have no idea. Get them to name specifics and its almost always hearsay and prejudice.

Shok



Well if we're talking about the internet, I might remember a few "religious" people who drink, divorce, fornicate with women they are not married to and maybe gamble. Are church going people expected to behave well, or is saying "I'm saved" or "We're sinners" while doing the same stuff that non church going people do okay?



It is not okay. Christians are not just supposed to behave but repent of these sins. This means more then just asked to be forgiven but turn away from this behaviour and sin no more. My pastor and deacon would never kick out a sinner except someone that rejects scripture and is unrepentent.


Aren't the divorce rates the same for religious and non religious people? Does this matter?


Don't know. I bet the statistics don't represent reality if this is true. I know many Christians that got divorced before being saved. I know no one that was divorced after being saved where both spouses are Christian. I would bet that if you counted only the divorces after being saved it would be rare.



Another thing I don't understand (hi-jack ahoy-ARRRR! Turn this thread around matey!) is the obsession with homosexual related sin but the blind eye turned towards extramarital sex and divorce, which is far more prevelent than homosexuality, and more damaging to society.


I sort of agree. Keep in mind there isn't an orgainzed effort to legalize, normalize and maintream adultry like there is with homosexuality. Due to its political nature gay marriage/civil union makes headlines and Christian values must be defended. At the same time we can't give the wrong impression that some sins are worse then others or that we hold homosexuals to a different standard then heterosexuals. 1 Cor 6:9-10 clearly shows that there are many ways not to be saved and go to heaven. There is only one way to be saved (1 Cor 6:11).

Shok
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:39:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

Seriously, I think that there is a difference between what you used to do and what you are doing. Having commited sins in the past and forsaking those ways is vastly different than saying 'I'm saved' then continuing a sinful lifestyle. This is a great point of differentiation between denominations. My Church believes that the actions of the converted sinners indicate your acceptance of Jesus Christ and salvation (Not that those actions merit salvation in ANY way).




BIG +1

Shok
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:47:54 AM EDT

I would bet that if you counted only the divorces after being saved it would be rare.


Forgiveness of sin comes automatically.

Maturity does not.

With that, I'd disagree.

<--immature Christian.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:49:18 AM EDT
If I am doing wrong and a brother in this forum points it out to me, I need to objectively examine what is said and then correct my behavior if I am indeed wrong. That's called growth.

If I am doing wrong and a brother in this forum confronts me and I respond with, "Oh yeah? You're a hypocrite! I saw you post in a BOTD thread! Who do you think you are judging me like that?", it is redirection to take attention away from my error, which I'm in denial over.

We are all hypocrites to some degree. As time goes by we should grow toward becoming less of a phony and more authentic.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:54:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
If I am doing wrong and a brother in this forum points it out to me, I need to objectively examine what is said and then correct my behavior if I am indeed wrong. That's called growth.

If I am doing wrong and a brother in this forum confronts me and I respond with, "Oh yeah? You're a hypocrite! I saw you post in a BOTD thread! Who do you think you are judging me like that?", it is redirection to take attention away from my error, which I'm in denial over.

We are all hypocrites to some degree. As time goes by we should grow toward becoming less of a phony and more authentic.




+1 Brother Brohawk...
Now get out of the BOTD threads
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:35:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tonster:

+1 Brother Brohawk...
Now get out of the BOTD threads



LOL!!!

Yep, that would raise the question of just how I knew a brother was wandering around in one of those threads.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:16:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

I would bet that if you counted only the divorces after being saved it would be rare.


Forgiveness of sin comes automatically.

Maturity does not.

With that, I'd disagree.

<--immature Christian.




It's because how y'all view 'forgiveness' is also often viewed as a permission slip.

There are plenty of guys that do the drunken rabble-rousing right along with me then snap into good boy posture when discussing matters of faith. That is the very definition of hypocracy. 'forgiveness' allows them to justify their actions.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:34:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

I would bet that if you counted only the divorces after being saved it would be rare.


Forgiveness of sin comes automatically.

Maturity does not.

With that, I'd disagree.

<--immature Christian.




It's because how y'all view 'forgiveness' is also often viewed as a permission slip.

There are plenty of guys that do the drunken rabble-rousing right along with me then snap into good boy posture when discussing matters of faith. That is the very definition of hypocracy. 'forgiveness' allows them to justify their actions.



Good points, both of them, with one exception.

'Y'all' don't view forgiveness that way.

The Bible refers to Sheep and Goats, Wheat and Tares.

Your friends are, most likely, either a) horribly immature Christians, or b) goats/tares. You're exactly right. They're hypocrites.

One thing that bothers me about 'baptist' theology (I'm a member of a baptist church) is that many people twist it to say that they can do what they want, as they're still forgiven for it.

However, the church doesn't teach that. People just filter out all that stuff about obedience, repentance, and so on, and hear what they want to hear.

I know lots of people who 'think', to that extent, that they are Christians.

And maybe they are. Maybe they're just very immature. I don't know.

But they do more harm than good by showing their hypocracy to a non-believing world.

Nobody's prefect. None of us. I guarantee you that there's not a single psoter here in this forum who has never posted something they shouldn't have here, or done something in front of a non-believer that just gave Satan more ammunition. I've done it myself. I'm pretty good at it.

Having said that, one thing people often forget is that sin has consequences.


<shrugs>

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:32:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
one thing people often forget is that sin has consequences.


<shrugs>




Hence my most frequently used phrase is "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa."
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:19:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 1:20:16 AM EDT by Jim_Linch]
This might be a bit of topic drift, but I have a co-worker that claims he's a Christian but is now living with a woman out of wedlock.

He has been called on the carpet by a non-Christian, but I would like to say someting, and wondered if someone can point me to a scripture that says it's my place as a Christian to do so?

Thanks

-another hypocrit, taking it "one day at a time." :)
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:08:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 4:08:49 AM EDT by arowneragain]

Originally Posted By Jim_Linch:
This might be a bit of topic drift, but I have a co-worker that claims he's a Christian but is now living with a woman out of wedlock.

He has been called on the carpet by a non-Christian, but I would like to say someting, and wondered if someone can point me to a scripture that says it's my place as a Christian to do so?
Thanks

-another hypocrit, taking it "one day at a time." :)



Galatians 6:1


Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted


1 Corinthians 6:9-10


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:08:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 6:10:49 AM EDT by Brohawk]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:


It's because how y'all view 'forgiveness' is also often viewed as a permission slip.

There are plenty of guys that do the drunken rabble-rousing right along with me then snap into good boy posture when discussing matters of faith. That is the very definition of hypocracy. 'forgiveness' allows them to justify their actions.



I fully concur.

The promise of forgiveness is not a license to sin.

("Y'all?" How wide of a net are you casting? )


Which brings up another point.

One of the characteristics of cheap grace, as defined by Bonhoeffer, is forgiveness without repentance.

Do you think that a lack of repentance nullifies forgiveness?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:32:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Jim_Linch:
This might be a bit of topic drift, but I have a co-worker that claims he's a Christian but is now living with a woman out of wedlock.

He has been called on the carpet by a non-Christian, but I would like to say someting, and wondered if someone can point me to a scripture that says it's my place as a Christian to do so?
Thanks

-another hypocrit, taking it "one day at a time." :)



Galatians 6:1


Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted


1 Corinthians 6:9-10


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.






HMMMMMMMMMMM, that's old test, do you eat shellfish arowner?

the way i understood it, the OT was wiped out by the NT and jesus dying for our sins.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:42:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Do you think that a lack of repentance nullifies forgiveness?



Absolutely.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:56:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Jim_Linch:
This might be a bit of topic drift, but I have a co-worker that claims he's a Christian but is now living with a woman out of wedlock.

He has been called on the carpet by a non-Christian, but I would like to say someting, and wondered if someone can point me to a scripture that says it's my place as a Christian to do so?
Thanks

-another hypocrit, taking it "one day at a time." :)



Galatians 6:1


Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted


1 Corinthians 6:9-10


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.






HMMMMMMMMMMM, that's old test, do you eat shellfish arowner?

the way i understood it, the OT was wiped out by the NT and jesus dying for our sins.




This really should be taken up in a new topic, but a short answer isn't that the OT was wiped out, the Mosaic Law was "fullfilled" and a higher law was given. Jesus didn't say that murder was no longer sin. He indicated that hatred in one's heart is also sin. Jesus didn't say that adultery was no longer sin. He indicated that lusting after a woman in one's heart is also a sin.

There are other parts of the Mosaic Law that had symbolic and/or sometimes practical basis, such as animal sacrifice, circumcision, or not eating shelfish. Much of these parts of the Mosaic Law became obsolete or superseded after Christ's resurrection.

That's how I personally see it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:57:23 AM EDT
As to the topic....


OF COURSE I am a hypocrite. More so than most as my standard is Scripture, and its impossible to accomplish it in my own power.

EVERYONE is a hypocrite.

The relative degree of hypocrisy has FAR more to do with the standard chosen than any other factor. People whose hypocrisy is truly minimal have too low a standard.

With God's help, I'm working on my hypocrisy, every single day.



Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:05:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Jim_Linch:
This might be a bit of topic drift, but I have a co-worker that claims he's a Christian but is now living with a woman out of wedlock.

He has been called on the carpet by a non-Christian, but I would like to say someting, and wondered if someone can point me to a scripture that says it's my place as a Christian to do so?
Thanks

-another hypocrit, taking it "one day at a time." :)



Galatians 6:1


Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted


1 Corinthians 6:9-10


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.






HMMMMMMMMMMM, that's old test, do you eat shellfish arowner?

the way i understood it, the OT was wiped out by the NT and jesus dying for our sins.




This really should be taken up in a new topic, but a short answer isn't that the OT was wiped out, the Mosaic Law was "fullfilled" and a higher law was given. Jesus didn't say that murder was no longer sin. He indicated that hatred in one's heart is also sin. Jesus didn't say that adultery was no longer sin. He indicated that lusting after a woman in one's heart is also a sin.

There are other parts of the Mosaic Law that had symbolic and/or sometimes practical basis, such as animal sacrifice, circumcision, or not eating shelfish. Much of these parts of the Mosaic Law became obsolete or superseded after Christ's resurrection.

That's how I personally see it.



that is really confusing. was the old testament not wiped away with the blood of christ or wasn't it?

what you say above seems to say we can pick and choose from the old test as we feel it needs to be. shouldn't the :new: test. be the bottom line ?

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:11:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

This really should be taken up in a new topic, but a short answer isn't that the OT was wiped out, the Mosaic Law was "fullfilled" and a higher law was given. Jesus didn't say that murder was no longer sin. He indicated that hatred in one's heart is also sin. Jesus didn't say that adultery was no longer sin. He indicated that lusting after a woman in one's heart is also a sin.

There are other parts of the Mosaic Law that had symbolic and/or sometimes practical basis, such as animal sacrifice, circumcision, or not eating shelfish. Much of these parts of the Mosaic Law became obsolete or superseded after Christ's resurrection.

That's how I personally see it.



that is really confusing. was the old testament not wiped away with the blood of christ or wasn't it?

what you say above seems to say we can pick and choose from the old test as we feel it needs to be. shouldn't the :new: test. be the bottom line ?




I'll ditto Shane's post.

Its not a matter of picking and choosing the Old Testament. Its a matter of understanding the Old Testament in the light of the full revelation of Jessu Christ.

Christ said "I came not to destroy the law. I came to fulfill it."

unkempt1 -

Have you already received Jesus Christ as your Saviour? The answer to that question is needed to proceed.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:19:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

This really should be taken up in a new topic, but a short answer isn't that the OT was wiped out, the Mosaic Law was "fullfilled" and a higher law was given. Jesus didn't say that murder was no longer sin. He indicated that hatred in one's heart is also sin. Jesus didn't say that adultery was no longer sin. He indicated that lusting after a woman in one's heart is also a sin.

There are other parts of the Mosaic Law that had symbolic and/or sometimes practical basis, such as animal sacrifice, circumcision, or not eating shelfish. Much of these parts of the Mosaic Law became obsolete or superseded after Christ's resurrection.

That's how I personally see it.



that is really confusing. was the old testament not wiped away with the blood of christ or wasn't it?

what you say above seems to say we can pick and choose from the old test as we feel it needs to be. shouldn't the :new: test. be the bottom line ?




I'll ditto Shane's post.

Its not a matter of picking and choosing the Old Testament. Its a matter of understanding the Old Testament in the light of the full revelation of Jessu Christ.

Christ said "I came not to destroy the law. I came to fulfill it."

unkempt1 -

Have you already received Jesus Christ as your Saviour? The answer to that question is needed to proceed.




I have made no leap in either diretion garandman, I posted another thread here in the religion forum a while ago now I guess. I'm trying to understand, and what I read above is quite confusing to me.

seems odd to me at least that some of the old testament should be followed to the letter, and some should not.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:41:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 7:52:23 AM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

I have made no leap in either diretion garandman, I posted another thread here in the religion forum a while ago now I guess. I'm trying to understand, and what I read above is quite confusing to me.



The reason i asked the question is that coming to know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is pre-requisite to understanding the intricacies of teh interr-relationship between law and grace.

Just like an understanding of vectors and calculus is pre=requisite to an understanding of quantum physics.



seems odd to me at least that some of the old testament should be followed to the letter, and some should not.


It is odd, and exactly what God intended. The Old Testament is STILL the Word of God. To understand God's intent, You just need to lay hold of the prerequisites first.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:09:05 AM EDT
Matthew 6:5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."

Matthew 15:7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

Luke 6:42 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye."

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:45:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

I have made no leap in either diretion garandman, I posted another thread here in the religion forum a while ago now I guess. I'm trying to understand, and what I read above is quite confusing to me.



The reason i asked the question is that coming to know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is pre-requisite to understanding the intricacies of teh interr-relationship between law and grace.

Just like an understanding of vectors and calculus is pre=requisite to an understanding of quantum physics.



seems odd to me at least that some of the old testament should be followed to the letter, and some should not.


It is odd, and exactly what God intended. The Old Testament is STILL the Word of God. To understand God's intent, You just need to lay hold of the prerequisites first.



sound like circular logic to me, I guess i will remain confused.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:19:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

I have made no leap in either diretion garandman, I posted another thread here in the religion forum a while ago now I guess. I'm trying to understand, and what I read above is quite confusing to me.



The reason i asked the question is that coming to know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is pre-requisite to understanding the intricacies of teh interr-relationship between law and grace.

Just like an understanding of vectors and calculus is pre=requisite to an understanding of quantum physics.



seems odd to me at least that some of the old testament should be followed to the letter, and some should not.


It is odd, and exactly what God intended. The Old Testament is STILL the Word of God. To understand God's intent, You just need to lay hold of the prerequisites first.



sound like circular logic to me, I guess i will remain confused.



Your question does make sense, and I will admit up front that it is only as I have studied the Mosaic Law, and what it's purpose was, along with studying the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that I have come to this understanding.

I'll try and start a new topic addressing this issue sometime today when I have a little more time to gather my thoughts.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:13:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:14:06 AM EDT by arowneragain]
Point of order, guys:

1 Corinthians is in the New Tesament.




edit:

And I eat oysters, crab, and shrimp like a starved racoon!



(Rarely, though, because it seems that every girl I date is allergic to seafood......)
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:27:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bfieldburt:
This is a cut and paste from a thread in the General Discussion Section. It's my reply to imq707, who I'm sure really is a good guy. I'm posting it because the "religious people are hypocrites" ideas sure comes up a lot and so many people sure seem to think it. My reply to his post is below.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By imq707s:
I really don't like church at all. Every time I suckered into going I just feel like there are a bunch of hypocrites there. I guess I just don't like other people telling me how to live me life. I figure I'm a good person, and I treat others with respect.....that's probably a hell of a lot better than most of the people that regularly attend church. I'd rather be known by others as a "good person" than "he's that jerk that goes to church every Sunday".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with the last sentence here. However, let's look at the "hypocrites" argument for a sec. Lots of people call "religious" people hypocrites. Why? Because they see people who say one thing and don't live up to the beliefs they profess. Have you ever considered why? The assumption by most people who think of religious people as hypocrites is that they do it because they are harsh, and judgemental, and want to control others but not control themselves. This is probably true of some religious people. But, consider this....

Any decent system of self-improvement IS HARD. DARN HARD. So, this automatically makes most religious people hypocrites because they are trying to live up to ideals that usually require an entire lifetime to get good at.

So, calling them or thinking of them as hypocrites is like someone saying that they "believe" that anyone who owns a gun should practice with it and hit what they are shooting at. Then, you go to the range and see that person there practicing, and, because they aren't hitting the bull's eye every time, you say he or she is a hypocrite.

Now, one more thing to think about.

It is very easy for someone to think they are not a hypocrite if they aren't part of or on a challenging self-improvement program. It is easy to accomplish low goals. Then, by looking at people who are attempting things that are harder, that person can feel superior because "I'm not a hypocrite" like them.

NOTE: I only expect about 25% of the people who read this to get it. It is usually just easier to discount what I just said....it feels better on a guilty conscience.



I notice that religious people are hypocrites. Non-religious people are not?

Definition of hypocricy:
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.

Are non-christians who celebrate Christmas therefore hypocrites?

I think we are all hypocrites. At least people who believe in God, and go to Church stand for something. It is far easier to be seen as a hypocrite when your beliefs and values are known by everyone, you will surely be the first person called out as a hypocrite the moment you stray from those values or beliefs.

It is far easier toavoid being called a hypocrite if you are non-regligious because you have no set values or beliefs for the world to see.

A man who has no higher power is a lost man (wether God, Allah, Budda, etc.). A man who has no religion answers only to himself. Its very easy to make the rules up as you go along isnt it?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:32:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 12:23:44 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

sound like circular logic to me, I guess i will remain confused.




Only if you choose not to go back to the beginning and learn the foundational information prerequisite to grasping the interrelationship between law and grace.

Understand grace first, THEN worry about the interrelationship between law and grace.

God revelas truth sequentially. First things first.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:32:12 PM EDT




Washington State Democratic Party Pulls Offensive Anti-Christian Sticker

Dear David,

To the right is the picture of a metallic car sticker which was being offered by the Washington State Democratic Party on their official web site.

The sticker is of the Christian fish symbol and cross emblazoned with the word "hypocrite" on a background of hellish flames.

As soon as it became public knowledge that the sticker was being offered on their site, they immediately removed it. However, at no time was there an apology offered.

Click here to see the original page.

Please email the Washington State Democratic Party asking for an apology. They would never allow such a demeaning symbol pertaining to another religious faith to be sold on their web page.

I hope you will forward this to family and friends so they can begin to see the hostility against Christians which many are supporting.

Thank you for caring enough to get involved.

Sincerely,
Visit the new AFA Superstore today!

Don

Donald E. Wildmon, Founder and Chairman
American Family Association

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:12:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Do you think that a lack of repentance nullifies forgiveness?



I don't know, it's not really my strong area as I believe that neither are necessary.

For me, forgiveness is defined as justified forgetting. If you 'forgive' one for an unjustified action, you are likely failing to learn from your environment. Repentance is typically done to satisfiy the conscience of the do'er of the action, and bears little on the victim.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:43:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

sound like circular logic to me, I guess i will remain confused.




Only if you choose not to go back to the beginning and learn the foundational information prerequisite to grasping the interrelationship between law and grace.

Understand grace first, THEN worry about the interrelationship between law and grace.

God revelas truth sequentially. First things first.




giving it my honest best shot.

thanks Gman
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:11:28 PM EDT
I am a huge hypocrite.

Because, I am my own worst critic.

Usually what comes out of my mouth is directed at me, even though
it often lands on other people.


GM
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:20:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
Do you think that a lack of repentance nullifies forgiveness?




No, I don't think so, YMMV. In my mind, God forgives whether we repent or not. It is our acceptance of that gift that allows us to enjoy the reward of heaven. That forgiveness was gained for us by the sacrifice of the cross. We accept that gift by following The Way.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:45:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
Do you think that a lack of repentance nullifies forgiveness?




No, I don't think so, YMMV. In my mind, God forgives whether we repent or not. It is our acceptance of that gift that allows us to enjoy the reward of heaven. That forgiveness was gained for us by the sacrifice of the cross. We accept that gift by following The Way.



Is this offical church teaching, or personal opinion?

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:12:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Understand grace first, THEN worry about the interrelationship between law and grace.

God revelas truth sequentially. First things first.




giving it my honest best shot.

thanks Gman



Its all good.

I'd STRONGLY recommend 10x as much personal prayer and Bible reading, as internet discussion board posting , or even one on one dicussion.

God is the Author and Dispenser of truth. Your REAL discussion is with Him. At best, me and other human beings are but messengers, and horribly flawed at that.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:18:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 7:19:06 PM EDT by TWIRE]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
Do you think that a lack of repentance nullifies forgiveness?




No, I don't think so, YMMV. In my mind, God forgives whether we repent or not. It is our acceptance of that gift that allows us to enjoy the reward of heaven. That forgiveness was gained for us by the sacrifice of the cross. We accept that gift by following The Way.



Is this offical church teaching, or personal opinion?



Personal opinion.

But I have listed below a few quotes from the Cathchism, not as proof, only as statement of belief, which seem to reflect the same idea. Paragraph 1847 seems to imply that although forgiveness is always available, it is only granted after the confession of wrongdoing, which is slightly more stringent than my opinion from the previous post.

Repentance

1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one's life, with hope in God's mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).

1490 The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God's mercy.

1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called "perfect" contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called "imperfect."

Forgiveness

1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us." To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate's cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas' betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter's denial and the disciples' flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world, the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.

2845 There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness, whether one speaks of "sins" as in Luke (11:4), "debts" as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors

Salvation

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free." In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."

2738 The revelation of prayer in the economy of salvation teaches us that faith rests on God's action in history. Our filial trust is enkindled by his supreme act: the Passion and Resurrection of his Son. Christian prayer is cooperation with his providence, his plan of love for men

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:25:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:


But I have listed below a few quotes from the Cathchism, not as proof, only as statement of belief, which seem to reflect the same idea.



Repentance is to turn from our sin, and do it no longer.

Without repentance, forgiveness is impossible, as the sin would continue, and the requisite sorrow would not exist to ask for forgiveness.

Forgiveness would then merely become a green light to sin.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:30:41 PM EDT

Paragraph 1847 seems to imply that although forgiveness is always available, it is only granted after the confession of wrongdoing, which is slightly more stringent than my opinion from the previous post.


Thanks for the reply.

This isn't the place to discuss the question Brohawk asked, I suppose.

Suffice to say that of all that you posted, 1847 aligns most closely with my own beliefs.


Brohawk mentioned 'cheap grace', as described by Boenhoffer.

I sure am glad someone suggested my reading that book. It's an eye-opener.


www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684815001/104-7541022-4515940?v=glance&n=283155
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:23:22 PM EDT
People are hypocrites, period. Religion has nothing to do with it. Man is not perfect, man is not God, and therefore will never be able to hold up to Biblical ideals. It's impossible.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:37:03 PM EDT
most of the time christians will get to know god a little better, then pop a spiritual boner and go around with their chest stuck out feeling all in the know. conceit and vanity follow. and then one day they will say to you something like....." i am the most humble person you will meet". good times.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:20:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cnow:
most of the time christians will get to know god a little better, then pop a spiritual boner and go around with their chest stuck out feeling all in the know. conceit and vanity follow. and then one day they will say to you something like....." i am the most humble person you will meet". good times.



And the irreligious will pop a "yer a hypocrite" boner, as if they aren't.

Sounds to me like a UNIVERSAL problem, NOT one unique to people CLAIMING (and I emphasize that word) to be Christian.

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