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Posted: 11/28/2005 8:46:59 AM EDT
Repeat after me…

“Abortion is not murder”
“Abortion is not murder”
“Abortion is not murder”

Yea right…

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1892696,00.html


The Sunday Times
November 27, 2005

Fifty babies a year are alive after abortion
Lois Rogers

A GOVERNMENT agency is launching an inquiry into doctors’ reports that up to 50 babies a year are born alive after botched National Health Service abortions.

The investigation, by the Confidential Enquiry into Maternal and Child Health (CEMACH), comes amid growing unease among clinicians over a legal ambiguity that could see them being charged with infanticide.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, which regulates methods of abortion, has also mounted its own investigation.

Its guidelines say that babies aborted after more than 21 weeks and six days of gestation should have their hearts stopped by an injection of potassium chloride before being delivered. In practice, few doctors are willing or able to perform the delicate procedure.

For the abortion of younger foetuses, labour is induced by drugs in the expectation that the infant will not survive the birth process. Guidelines say that doctors should ensure that the drugs they use prevent such babies being alive at birth.

In practice, according to Stuart Campbell, former professor of obstetrics and gynaecology at St George’s hospital, London, a number do survive.

“They can be born breathing and crying at 19 weeks’ gestation,” he said. “I am not anti-abortion, but as far as I am concerned this is sub-standard medicine.”

The number of terminations carried out in the 18th week of pregnancy or later has risen from 5,166 in 1994 to 7,432 last year. Prenatal diagnosis for conditions such as Down’s syndrome is increasing and foetuses with the condition are routinely aborted, even though many might be capable of leading fulfilling lives. In the past decade, doctors’ skill in saving the lives of premature babies has improved radically: at least 70%-80% of babies in their 23rd or 24th week of gestation now survive long-term.

Abortion on demand is allowed in Britain up to 24 weeks — more than halfway through a normal pregnancy and the highest legal limit for such terminations in Europe. France and Germany permit “social” abortions only up to the 10th and 12th weeks respectively.

Doctors are increasingly uneasy about aborting babies who could be born alive. “If viability is the basis on which they set the 24-week limit for abortion, then the simplest answer is to change the law and reduce the upper limit to 18 weeks,” said Campbell, who last year published a book showing images of foetuses’ facial expressions and “walking” movements taken with a form of 3-D ultrasound.

The Department of Health was alerted three months ago to the issue of babies surviving failed terminations. In August clinicians in Manchester published an analysis of 31 such babies born in northwest England between 1996 and 2001.

“If a baby is born alive following a failed abortion and then dies (because of lack of care), you could potentially be charged with murder,” said Shantala Vadeyar, a consultant obstetrician at South Manchester University Hospitals NHS Trust, who led the study.

A systematic investigation of data collected through the CEMACH indicated that there are at least 50 cases a year nationwide in which babies survive abortion attempts.

“First sight of our data suggests this is happening,” said Shona Golightly, the agency’s research director. She said official confirmation of the figures would be available next year.

It is not known how many babies who survive attempted abortions go on to live into adulthood.

Paul Clarke, a neonatal intensive care specialist in Norwich, has treated a boy born at 24 weeks after three failed abortion attempts. The mother decided to keep the child, who is now two years old but is suffering what doctors call “significant ongoing medical problems”.

“The survival of this child was not recorded in any official statistics,” Clarke said. “There is nothing at the moment to force abortion practitioners to account for their failures.”

The issue will be highlighted by Gianna Jessen, 28, who survived an attempt to abort her. She is to speak at a parliamentary meeting on December 6 organised by the Alive and Kicking campaign, which is lobbying for a reduction of the abortion limit to 18 weeks.

Jessen, a musician from Nashville, Tennessee, was left with cerebral palsy but is to run in the London marathon next April to raise funds for fellow sufferers.

“If abortion is about women’s rights, then what were my rights?” she asked.

“If people are going to talk about abortion, then it’s important for them to know that these are babies that can be born alive and survive.”

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:48:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
“If people are going to talk about abortion, then it’s important for them to know that these are babies that can be born alive and survive.”



These people don't care.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:50:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
“If people are going to talk about abortion, then it’s important for them to know that these are babies that can be born alive and survive.”



These people don't care.



+1. It's all about convenience.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:51:46 AM EDT
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:53:11 AM EDT
anyone who thinks abortion is not taking a human life is lying to themselves.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:53:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.



I'm sure you couldn't care less, but I'm sad for you.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:54:17 AM EDT
22 pages minimum.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:54:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARKAN_the_Tiger:

Originally Posted By FredM:
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.



I'm sure you couldn't care less, but I'm sad for you.



I assume you are considering how you let feelings determine your morals.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:56:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.



Placing a high value on human life is not empty emotionalism.

Your moral standpoint is also devoid of compassion for the helpless. Is that moral?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:56:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar15bubba:
22 pages minimum.



It will get locked long before it hits that point.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:56:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By ARKAN_the_Tiger:

Originally Posted By FredM:
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.



I'm sure you couldn't care less, but I'm sad for you.



I assume you are considering how you let feelings determine your morals.



Its not about my feelings. I just have a problem with murdering the innocent.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:57:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2005 8:58:25 AM EDT by noctem02]

Originally Posted By ar15bubba:
22 pages minimum.



I was thinking more on the lines of 87

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:57:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By ARKAN_the_Tiger:

Originally Posted By FredM:
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.



I'm sure you couldn't care less, but I'm sad for you.



I assume you are considering how you let feelings determine your morals.



What we got here boys is a modern day Aristotle
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:59:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Jessen, a musician from Nashville, Tennessee, was left with cerebral palsy but is to run in the London marathon next April to raise funds for fellow sufferers.

“If abortion is about women’s rights, then what were my rights?” she asked.


STFU you brainless lifeless gob of goo!!!

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:59:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By FredM:
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.



Placing a high value on human life is not empty emotionalism.

Your moral standpoint is also devoid of compassion for the helpless. Is that moral?



Helpless what?

Basically it all depends on your definition of who or what has a right to life.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:59:57 AM EDT
Tagged to see the baby-murder apologists come out of the woodwork.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:01:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar15bubba:
anyone who thinks abortion is not taking a human life is lying to themselves.




+ 1,000,000
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:03:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2005 9:03:45 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By FredM:
Basically it all depends on your definition of who or what has a right to life.


Abortionists claim a fetus is not "fully human" - just like the slaveholders claimed blacks were not "fully human" and how the Nazis claimed Jews were not "fully human".

All manner of atrocities are done when those committing those atrocities get to define who is "human" and who has a "right to life".


Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:04:35 AM EDT
The product of human reproduction is: HUMAN.

Killing human beings without cause is just plain wrong.

Abortion is the greatest moral evil of our time.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:06:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Tagged to see the baby-murder apologists come out of the woodwork.




+1
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:07:54 AM EDT
without abortions where would we get stir fry meat?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:09:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
without abortions where would we get stir fry meat?

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:09:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By FredM:
Basically it all depends on your definition of who or what has a right to life.


Abortionists claim a fetus is not "fully human" - just like the slaveholders claimed blacks were not "fully human" and how the Nazis claimed Jews were not "fully human".

All manner of atrocities are done when those committing those atrocities get to define who is "human" and who has a "right to life".




please describe a logical definition of "human" that would not include Jews, Afro Americans, and babies but would include yourself or for instance the common american.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:10:45 AM EDT
Hmm. I cannot imagine how Jessen must feel, knowing your parents made the decision to abort you. Or the guilt her parents must feel when they look at their child. he
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:10:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
The product of human reproduction is: HUMAN.

Killing human beings without cause is just plain wrong.

Abortion is the greatest moral evil of our time.




Narrow your definition.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:10:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
without abortions where would we get stir fry meat?




do you honestly think that they actually use beef in that stuff?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:12:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
without abortions where would we get stir fry meat?




do you honestly think that they actually use beef in that stuff?



Cat, dog. Beef is NOT elastic!
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:13:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
“If people are going to talk about abortion, then it’s important for them to know that these are babies that can be born alive and survive.”



These people don't care.



+1. It's all about convenience.



+1. Just like going to Ihop before/after church. Commerce on the Sabbath is an offense for which the prescribed punishment is stoning AFAIK but it doesn't stop the hypocrites from doing this while condemning that.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:14:49 AM EDT
I just saw this...I was both stunned and sickened.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together recognizes that abortion after about six weeks of human fetal development is infanticide...murder.

Even as we all realize that fact, a major portion of our society still views this murder as something less...a "termination"...a "right"...just an "abortion". And sadly, our entire society continues to wrestle with this so hard. It ought not to be difficult...but it is.

We kill babies with such ease...and we fret and whine about executing serial killers. We discuss the "rights" of kiddy rapers and lifer convicts...but we fight like hell to let a woman "choose" right up to the end of the 3rd trimester.

Makes you wonder how many of these take place in America every year.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:15:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
The product of human reproduction is: HUMAN.

Killing human beings without cause is just plain wrong.

Abortion is the greatest moral evil of our time.




Narrow your definition.



Narrow my definition?

You and I are human beings. At one point in our development we were both in the womb. We were no less human in the womb than out of the womb, as the womb is a PART OF HUMAN DEVELOPMENT.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:15:54 AM EDT
I sure hope all you Antis are also against Capital Punishment, I'd hate for anyone to be a hypocrite.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:16:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By FredM:
Basically it all depends on your definition of who or what has a right to life.


Abortionists claim a fetus is not "fully human" - just like the slaveholders claimed blacks were not "fully human" and how the Nazis claimed Jews were not "fully human".

All manner of atrocities are done when those committing those atrocities get to define who is "human" and who has a "right to life".

please describe a logical definition of "human" that would not include Jews, Afro Americans, and babies but would include yourself or for instance the common american.


No.

That's just the point - there IS no "logical defintion" of "human" that excludes Jews, Blacks, babies, kids with cerebral palsy, severe Down's syndrome, comatose geriatric paraplegics, fetuses, etc.

I'm not the one limiting the defintion of "human" to just those people who can (or used to) breathe on their own.

YOU describe a "logical definition' of "human" that would include Jews, Blacks, babies, kids with cerebral palsy, severe Down's syndrome, comatose geriatric paraplegics on ventilators and yet EXCLUDE fetuses.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2005 9:17:49 AM EDT by TheRedHorseman]
ok, since you guys are all for adoption instead of abortion, why arent you standing outside abortion clinics offering women a package deal where you pay for all prenatal care with an agreement to adopt the child upon birth?

seriously, Abortion is an ugly thing, but I dont see too many people trying to save babies. I personally dont care, it doesnt cause any harm to me so I tolerate it, all I ask is that people tolerate what I wish to do that does not harm them. things like owning guns, shooting, hunting, fishing, you know stuff that most pro abortion types want to ban. I think its a fair trade.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:17:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
+1. Just like going to Ihop before/after church. Commerce on the Sabbath is an offense for which the prescribed punishment is stoning AFAIK but it doesn't stop the hypocrites from doing this while condemning that.



Oh please.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:17:25 AM EDT
I've read/heard Hitler's, Mother's Doctor recommended she have an abortion because she was raped by her uncle (hitler's father). imagine what that abortion might have changed.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:18:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok, since you guys are all for adoption instead of abortion, why arent you standing outside abortion clinics offering women a package deal where you pay for all prenatal care with an agreement to adopt the child upon birth?



There are numerous groups who do exactly that.



Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:18:29 AM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:18:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok, since you guys are all for adoption instead of abortion, why arent you standing outside abortion clinics offering women a package deal where you pay for all prenatal care with an agreement to adopt the child upon birth?

seriously, Abortion is an ugly thing, but I dont see too many people trying to save babies. I personally dont care, it doesnt cause any harm to me so I tolerate it, all I ask is that people tolerate what I wish to do that does not harm them. things like owning guns, shooting, hunting, fishing, you know stuff that most pro abortion types want to ban. I think its a fair trade.



+1

And it (abortion) prevents an overwhelming democrat majority.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:19:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
+1. Just like going to Ihop before/after church. Commerce on the Sabbath is an offense for which the prescribed punishment is stoning AFAIK but it doesn't stop the hypocrites from doing this while condemning that.



No, commerce on the Sabbath isn't a sin. Eating at IHOP on Sunday isn't a sin. Persuing commerce to the exclusion of God's kingdom on the sabbath or any other day IS a sin.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:20:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:20:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
+1. Just like going to Ihop before/after church. Commerce on the Sabbath is an offense for which the prescribed punishment is stoning AFAIK but it doesn't stop the hypocrites from doing this while condemning that.



Oh please.




You must go to Ihop before or after church. Why don't you go read the good book and worry about your own business. Don't remember it verbatim but something like plucking the beam out of your own eye before trying to pluck the piece of sawdust out of your neighbors.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:20:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok, since you guys are all for adoption instead of abortion, why arent you standing outside abortion clinics offering women a package deal where you pay for all prenatal care with an agreement to adopt the child upon birth?

seriously, Abortion is an ugly thing, but I dont see too many people trying to save babies. I personally dont care, it doesnt cause any harm to me so I tolerate it, all I ask is that people tolerate what I wish to do that does not harm them. things like owning guns, shooting, hunting, fishing, you know stuff that most pro abortion types want to ban. I think its a fair trade.



+1

And it (abortion) prevents an overwhelming democrat majority.



That is without a doubt the most idiotic and asinine thing I have ever read on ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:21:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
Just like going to Ihop before/after church. Commerce on the Sabbath is an offense for which the prescribed punishment is stoning AFAIK but it doesn't stop the hypocrites from doing this while condemning that.



Your Scripture-fu is weak.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:23:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By ARKAN_the_Tiger:

Originally Posted By FredM:
I'm pro killing babies. Never have done it. Never will do it.


From a moral standpoint that is devoid of emotion and FEELINGS I don't see a problem with it.



I'm sure you couldn't care less, but I'm sad for you.



I assume you are considering how you let feelings determine your morals.


Sorry Fred, but your saying killing a child isn't an immoral thing to do... Since reason has a big part in morals what reason do you find it a ok for a healthy baby that is no danger to its mother to be aborted?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:24:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By roboman:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok, since you guys are all for adoption instead of abortion, why arent you standing outside abortion clinics offering women a package deal where you pay for all prenatal care with an agreement to adopt the child upon birth?

seriously, Abortion is an ugly thing, but I dont see too many people trying to save babies. I personally dont care, it doesnt cause any harm to me so I tolerate it, all I ask is that people tolerate what I wish to do that does not harm them. things like owning guns, shooting, hunting, fishing, you know stuff that most pro abortion types want to ban. I think its a fair trade.



+1

And it (abortion) prevents an overwhelming democrat majority.



That is without a doubt the most idiotic and asinine thing I have ever read on ARFCOM.



How so? Don't you believe that the people getting most of the abortions are dregs and losers whose kids will end up on the doll or in prison?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:24:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
without abortions where would we get stir fry meat?



Go back on your sabbatical.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:25:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
You must go to Ihop before or after church.



No, I avoid IHOP altogether if I can help it.



Why don't you go read the good book and worry about your own business.



The killing of innocent people IS my buisness. It is everyone's buisness.




Don't remember it verbatim but something like plucking the beam out of your own eye before trying to pluck the piece of sawdust out of your neighbors.



That would mean that going to IHOP would be the "beam" whereas killing an unborn child would be a "speck", which would be an unsupportable conclusion either by scriptural edict or common sense. If you see a Christian going to Wal-Mart to pick up a loaf of bread after church on Sunday as being morally equal to or worse than killing someone, then you have one seriously messed up outlook.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:25:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AshNH:
I sure hope all you Antis are also against Capital Punishment, I'd hate for anyone to be a hypocrite.



You like so many others of your ilk...continue to miss the salient point of difference between an unborn baby and an adult murderer: The baby has no choice. If the mother decides to kill it...it's a goner. The murderer HAS a choice...and he/she chose to kill. Societies for thousands of years have taken a dim view of murder and have imposed severe sanctions on the killers including death.

The baby has done no crime...why should it be killed...and why would you make this comparison?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:25:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GerberSchwintz:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
without abortions where would we get stir fry meat?



Go back on your sabbatical.



what's wrong? never going to look at stir fry the same way again?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:25:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
I've read/heard Hitler's, Mother's Doctor recommended she have an abortion because she was raped by her uncle (hitler's father). imagine what that abortion might have changed.


Yes we may all be living in a communist world. Hitler was a necessary evil.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:26:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
How so? Don't you believe that the people getting most of the abortions are dregs and losers whose kids will end up on the doll or in prison?



I believe that he was expressing the idea of pre-emptive capital punishment as being morally repugnant.
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