Quoted: Quoted: As far as Reformed or Conservative conversions qualifying for the "Right of Return" in Israel, this is rather new and if religious factions ever get into power this will be the 1st law they take off the books. With a Reformed or Conservative conversion you will not be counted in Traditional Jewish services, You are not allowed to participate, nor would you be allowed to marry a traditional Jew.   _______________ Re: "As far as Reformed or Conservative conversions qualifying for the "Right of Return" in Israel, this is rather new and if religious factions ever get into power this will be the 1st law they take off the books. " ___ In truth, sects of what are commonly referred to as "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" have been pariahs upon the State of Israel for decades.  That is changing. The stipends that had been given to such groups for housing, food, etc. at the expense of non-"Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" who joined the IDF without the exclusion the "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" enjoyed are nearly at an end.   And, given that, and also that more money is contributed to The State of Israel by non-"Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox"  groups...that is unlikely to change. One last important note that such opinions of the "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" espouse when in reference to the building of the Third Temple...and that is that these groups also do not recognize that the State of Isreael has a right to exist until the Moshiach (Savior) returns, at which point, and only then, may the Third Temple be rebuilt.

Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox, dont confuse that with a level of observence. There is no such thing as "Ultra Orthodox" it is a meaningless media Term. That is like saying Moshe Feinstein was only "Orthodox" but a Butcher in Mea Sherim is "Ultra Orthodox" If you understand what I just said you will see the utter silliness in such terms.

You honestly dont know what you are talking about if you think there is a difference between a Machmir Yid you see dressed in some cargo pants and golf shirts and a guy with a long beard and a black hat. An observant Jew is an observant Jew.

Quoted: Quoted: neshomamench...the root of "Cheit" comes from an archery term to have missed the mark.  By so also (though without the "Cheit" association with sin) with your comment that "We also have a case pecident that we can do without the Temple. The Jewish people had no Temple for a great many years between the 1st and Second Temples. " I made that earlier reference, as normative Judaism does not believe in any aspect of the Temple sacrificial system. You made Biblical references to what can make atonement for the soul, though I believe you missed the point, or mark if you will. People of all faiths reach atonement for their sins when...they no longer commit them. B'Shalom, Ed Scuba, I hate to do this, but you continue spreading some very eronious information regarding Judaism.  You are also "Playing" to the audience as though this is a Springer episode. I am an Orthodox Jew with several years of Rabbinical School under my belt and qualify for Smicha (Rabbinical Ordination). It is my understanding that you are not Jewish. I have pointed out the problems with your posts. To state Jews no longer believe in the idea of the second Temple is akin to saying Christians no longer believe in Jesus. You simply can not seerate the two.  If you would like to take the position that something less than Traditional Judaism such as the modern incarnations of Reformed Judaism dont believe in such things, that is fine, but even many of them do.

__________________

Re:

"It is my understanding that you are not Jewish."

___

You understand incorrectly...or you made an assumption.  I wouldn't have expected that as "...several years of Rabbinical School under my belt..."  

Quoted: Re: "It is my understanding that you are not Jewish." ___ You understand incorrectly...or you made an assumption.  I wouldn't have expected that as "...several years of Rabbinical School under my belt..."

Were you or were you not born of a Halachikly Jewish mother, and if not did you have an orthodox conversion. If you do not meet one of these requirments you are not Jewish. Their are no exceptions to these rules.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As far as Reformed or Conservative conversions qualifying for the "Right of Return" in Israel, this is rather new and if religious factions ever get into power this will be the 1st law they take off the books. With a Reformed or Conservative conversion you will not be counted in Traditional Jewish services, You are not allowed to participate, nor would you be allowed to marry a traditional Jew.   _______________ Re: "As far as Reformed or Conservative conversions qualifying for the "Right of Return" in Israel, this is rather new and if religious factions ever get into power this will be the 1st law they take off the books. " ___ In truth, sects of what are commonly referred to as "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" have been pariahs upon the State of Israel for decades.  That is changing. The stipends that had been given to such groups for housing, food, etc. at the expense of non-"Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" who joined the IDF without the exclusion the "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" enjoyed are nearly at an end.   And, given that, and also that more money is contributed to The State of Israel by non-"Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox"  groups...that is unlikely to change. One last important note that such opinions of the "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" espouse when in reference to the building of the Third Temple...and that is that these groups also do not recognize that the State of Isreael has a right to exist until the Moshiach (Savior) returns, at which point, and only then, may the Third Temple be rebuilt. Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox, dont confuse that with a level of observence. There is no such thing as "Ultra Orthodox" it is a meaningless media Term. That is like saying Moshe Feinstein was only "Orthodox" but a Butcher in Mea Sherim is "Ultra Orthodox" If you understand what I just said you will see the utter silliness in such terms. You honestly dont know what you are talking about if you think there is a difference between a Machmir Yid you see dressed in some cargo pants and golf shirts and a guy with a long beard and a black hat. An observant Jew is an observant Jew.

___________________

Re:

"Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox, dont confuse that with a level of observence."

Not so...otherwise there would be none in the IDF!    

Quoted: Quoted: Re: "It is my understanding that you are not Jewish." ___ You understand incorrectly...or you made an assumption.  I wouldn't have expected that as "...several years of Rabbinical School under my belt..."   Were you or were you not born of a Halachikly Jewish mother, and if not did you have an orthodox conversion. If you do not meet one of these requirments you are not Jewish. Their are no exceptions to these rules.

___

I hear you, and you sway me little more than another insect upon any Jew.  Your bark has no bite.  And as I don't have a dog in this fight, will now go to supper.

Live long and prosper, though I would encourage you to study...more.

Hey...my synogogue has 3 families who emigrated from Israel....each had member(s) who had served in the IDF...how many of your group has?


B'Shalom,

Ed

Quoted: "Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox, dont confuse that with a level of observence." Not so...otherwise there would be none in the IDF!

Uh, You ever served in the IDF? You do realize almost every Jew in the IDF is orthodox. They may not all be very OBSERVANT. But when they do get to doing Jewish things it is going to be done in the orthodox manner only.

The same goes for most of the Jewish population of the world outside of America.

Quoted: I hear you, and you sway me little more than another insect upon any Jew.  Your bark has no bite.  And as I don't have a dog in this fight, will now go to supper. Live long and prosper, though I would encourage you to study...more. Hey...my synogogue has 3 families who emigrated from Israel....each had member(s) who had served in the IDF...how many of your group has? B'Shalom, Ed

So you are not Jewish?

You are asking me to study more, May G-d Grant me the streangth to do so as I should spend more time with my Dafyomi. What Yeshiva did you go to?

As far as families from Israel That served in the IDF in my shuel....I dont know, lets say more than 20.  Lets say about 10 that still do(Serve) What the hell kind of question is that? Seriously. Do you think their are that many Synogogous that dont have people from Israel in them? And since service is manditory, do you think it is suprising that these people from Israel have family members who served?

As far as "My Synogogue", Dont you really mean your reformed or conservative Temple. At Synogogues this morning people rose early to go to Slichos. I doubt anyone did that at the place you are talking about.

Oh man, a controversy. Pop corn!

Seriously though, I didn't want to open a can of worms here. I just thought that since God did positively command the people to build him a Temple, and they did, but then forces beyond their control (or partially because of their in-fighting perhaps) led to this temple's destruction that the people would continue to assume that God still wanted a Temple, unless either a prophet or theophany clearly showed that God accepted this turn of events and now has something else in mind...

One of you is making a virtue out of necessity it seems: "no temple, oh well, I guess we really don't need one after all"..."since we can live without one just fine, with Rabbis and synagogues, we don't need to rebuild it".

I mean if that's the case, why was 2nd one built? Sure you can survive without it (you have for 1930 some years) but is this God's desire/plan for the people or merely something beyond your control (because to rebuild it means WW3 with the Muslims)?  

The only analogy I can think of are the Japanese Catholics who kept the faith for 300 some years from the time the last Spanish missionary was killed in the 1500's to the days French missionaries eventually returned in the 1800's.

They baptized their children and did marriages, but kept the idea of other sacraments and doctrine intact, but never personally experienced the other sacraments. They knew without a bishop they couldn't have a priest and without a priest they couldn't have the Eucharist, confession, annointing, or confirmation. But once they discovered French missionaries they sought to bring the faith they had kept alive to full fruition.

Living without 5 sacraments was (and is) possible for Catholics. Not ideal, but do-able. Millions of Catholics lived without sacraments during the 70 years of Communist control of Eastern Europe. Again - do-able, but not ideal.

My thing is... God did command the Jews to build him a temple. There was a divine approval for the Temple worship, priesthood, etc. and until 30AD there wasn't any question among any sect but that the Temple was essential, inasmuch as that was where God wanted men to worship him.

But 40 years later the Romans wiped out Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. Sure, Jews survived and the Rabbis kept the fires of devotion and learning alive....but without a clear theophany of prophet claiming that the Temple system was now over and done with and God wanted something else, don't you have a duty to rebuild it and continue?

The jews were required to have Jesus walk among them, and to kill him for our sins.

This is the extent of their being a "people of God"

Quoted: The jews were required to have Jesus walk among them, and to kill him for our sins. This is the extent of their being a "people of God"

Crucifiction is not a Jewish form of exocution. It is Roman. Your New testiment makes it very clear who killed Jesus.  In Jewish Law, the man who does the action is responsible, end of story. If it is Jesus death and resurection that sealed the "New covenent" and "Fulfiled" and replaced Jewish law....Jewish law was in effect when he was being crucified. And according to Jewish Law....The same Law chrisitanity says Jesus gave to moses, Then the Romans are the only guilty party.

Quoted: The jews were required to have Jesus walk among them, and to kill him for our sins. This is the extent of their being a "people of God"

Oh crap will you QUIT with "the Jews killed Jesus" garbage!

Every one of Jesus' disciples was Jewish.

I've seen documents from Popes going back to the 800's condemning people, prelates and princes for supposing Jews of that time were personally guilty for the death of Jesus. Then, as now not all Catholics listened to their leaders and did what they pleased for personal and political reasons (half the Catholics in Congress are pro-abortion, pro-super-rights for gays, pro-religious-litmus test for SCOTUS candidates).

Nowhere in the New Testament do Church leaders call on followers to attack Jews or be violent with them. They are the "older brother", hence, the same family. If we have faith at all in the one God it's thanks to them. If we gentiles (ahem, my ancestors helped destroy the Roman empire) have anything to do with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it's thanks to the Jews.

It's also considered a Heresy to claim that the Old Testament is alien to the New or that the God therein is a different god than the one in the New. Marcion was a heretic - and a nut. Let's not go into THAT madness again.

I was never taught "jews are to blame for Jesus' death". We were taught that all of mankind was responsible. No sense in scape-goating anyone or any group in particular. No can read Acts and conclude that the Church is supposed to nurture some sort of grudge against Jews in general or particular. If they don't believe it's not like our animosity or violence is going to help!

We have an obligation to seek the truth - which includes listening to what others of different faiths have to say about what they believe. Maybe it's wrong. Maybe not. But you can't argue about something that hasn't been fully expounded on or explained.

Suspension of judgement is always a good thing when someone from a different culture or POV is starting to explain what they believe, why they believe it and what it all means for them.

Quoted: Quoted: The jews were required to have Jesus walk among them, and to kill him for our sins. This is the extent of their being a "people of God" Oh crap will you QUIT with "the Jews killed Jesus" garbage! Every one of Jesus' disciples was Jewish.

you did not understand me

we killed Jesus with our sin,

the Jews did physically have Jesus killed, and that was meant to be, destined to be, I am glad it happened, aren't you?  I do not hold it against the Jews, nor do I hold anything agaist Judas, anymore than I hold it against myself,

for I know Jesus whould have died just to save me, just for my sin, so, I have killed Jesus with my sin.

What I was trying to say was that the destiny of the Jewish people from the begining of time was to be the people to physically kill Jesus for all of us. but you and me sir, are the ones who he sacreficed himself for.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The jews were required to have Jesus walk among them, and to kill him for our sins. This is the extent of their being a "people of God" Oh crap will you QUIT with "the Jews killed Jesus" garbage! Every one of Jesus' disciples was Jewish. you did not understand me we killed Jesus with our sin, the Jews did physically have Jesus killed, and that was meant to be, destined to be, I am glad it happened, aren't you?  I do not hold it against the Jews, nor do I hold anything agaist Judas, anymore than I hold it against myself, for I know Jesus whould have died just to save me, just for my sin, so, I have killed Jesus with my sin. What I was trying to say was that the destiny of the Jewish people from the begining of time was to be the people to physically kill Jesus for all of us. but you and me sir, are the ones who he sacreficed himself for.

___________________

Freakzilla...exactly which text do you refer to that "...the Jewish people from the begining of time was to be the people to physically kill Jesus."

Your  knowledge and historical (or hysterical) revelation makes it all seem as if Jews from all time up to the death of the person of Jesus seems as if it where a big ol' party that just got out of hand.

As the uneducated person you seem to be, sir, I would not post such drivel in the future...I mean, really, do you wish to really be known as a Freak-a-whatever?

Freakzilla...exactly which text do you refer to that "...the Jewish people from the begining of time was to be the people to physically kill Jesus." Your knowledge and historical (or hysterical) revelation makes it all seem as if Jews from all time up to the death of the person of Jesus seems as if it where a big ol' party that just got out of hand. As the uneducated person you seem to be, sir, I would not post such drivel in the future...I mean, really, do you wish to really be known as a Freak-a-whatever?

since I am uneducated, I will let God's word speak for itself, if you have ears to listen



Acts 2 22-25

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge;  and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

ACTS 36-41

   36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

   37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

   38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

   40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Look Freakzilla, if we want to argue from a Christian Point of View, then sure, "in a sense" Acts relates the Messiah had to suffer and be slain as the Lamb to expiate the sins of his people and thus, it was "set up" from the time of Adam's sin that men would have a hand however unwittingly, in healing of the break from God.

But all this is our Christian POV. It's pointless to assume that Jews will even follow our points step by step because their POV IS different (obviously, which is why they're still Jews and not Christians!)

I just want to hear what they have to say for themselves about their belief, not go off on tangents as to what we believe

But it's not true that Jews existed FOR KILLING JESUS. From the time of Abraham they existed for the worship of God; to be a priestly people - and since priests offer sacrifice for the worship of God, it follows that that people (who would number as the stars in the sky) would offer a pleasing sacrifice to God on behalf of humanity.

From Abel we learn that God was pleased with the total sacrifice of the finest of the flock, the unblemished lamb - the lamb that would most produce healthy offspring if allowed to live, and thus is most "costly" to give up; just as Isaac was most costly to Abraham to give up.

Sure, a test. But a test not followed through with. He offered up a ram (instead of the Lamb he said God himself would supply). And the Lamb of God eventually did arrive and was slain and thus saved his people.

My point is, God doesn't set people up to commit sins. Knowing that they'd do X if he did Y is not the same thing as forcing them to do X. As Jesus himself said on the cross "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do".

They killed him for lots of reasons; petty, personal, pet peeves, politics, perversity, pride. They chief priests didn't believe he was the Messiah; they still don't. So accusing the Jewish people of that time or later of Deicide isn't just or fair. Had they known....they wouldn't have done it. Just as we wouldn't sin against God if we were facing him; only the darkness of our minds and subsequent straying of our wills leads us to sin.

But all this is our Christian POV. It's pointless to assume that Jews will even follow our points step by step because their POV IS different (obviously, which is why they're still Jews and not Christians!)

I just want to hear what they have to say for themselves about their belief, not go off on tangents as to what we believe

This thread is about how the Jews are God's "chosen people"

I beleive that the Jews were "chosen by God" to be the people whom Jesus walked with and was physically killed by, I do not say this with anger, I am sure if I was a Jew at the time I would have been in the crowd yelling "crucify him!" just like everyone else.

This was the purpose of the Jewish people from the begining, and is not a lowly purpose whatsoever!

After God died for us though Jesus, they are no longer "chosen by God", not anymore than Muslems/Hindus/Buddists.  To follow ANY false religion is to look God in the face and say, "the sacrefice of your only son is not good enough for me!"

This is my answer to this threads original question, don't read into it and think I am saying something I am not.

Quoted: This thread is about how the Jews are God's "chosen people" I beleive that the Jews were "chosen by God" to be the people whom Jesus walked with and was physically killed by, I do not say this with anger, I am sure if I was a Jew at the time I would have been in the crowd yelling "crucify him!" just like everyone else. This was the purpose of the Jewish people from the begining, and is not a lowly purpose whatsoever! This is my answer to this threads original question, don't read into it and think I am saying something I am not.

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Fread-a-aoid...and a TROLL too !  

Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox

I have several friends form Israel, they are Reform, the trouble with Israel is the Orthodox...they want control of everything Jewish, I am a by choice and Reform. I went to a synagouge with the purpose of coming home, no woman or job or anything aided my decision.

According to Ruth 1:17....I am a Jew, according to Rambam, I am a gift...so you can take your hated and let it eat your heart up.

THose that sit in judgement claiming you aren't Jewish enough, will have to answer to G*d

Mind if I quote your sig line in an article I hope to publish?

"Homeland Security is the American People"

Awesome, pity, in a nut shell rebuttal to the idea of throwing out Posse Commitatus and using the DOD as first responder in every natural and man-made disaster!


IM me with whatever name I ought to assign the quote to. Thanks.

Quoted: Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox I have several friends form Israel, they are Reform, the trouble with Israel is the Orthodox...they want control of everything Jewish, I am a by choice and Reform. I went to a synagouge with the purpose of coming home, no woman or job or anything aided my decision. According to Ruth 1:17....I am a Jew, according to Rambam, I am a gift...so you can take your hated and let it eat your heart up. THose that sit in judgement claiming you aren't Jewish enough, will have to answer to G*d

__________

neshomamench -- You would be wrong there.  Most Israelis are secular Jewish...actually most Israelis are Arab---even worse!

Ed

Quoted: Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox I have several friends form Israel, they are Reform, the trouble with Israel is the Orthodox...they want control of everything Jewish, I am a by choice and Reform. I went to a synagouge with the purpose of coming home, no woman or job or anything aided my decision. According to Ruth 1:17....I am a Jew, according to Rambam, I am a gift...so you can take your hated and let it eat your heart up. THose that sit in judgement claiming you aren't Jewish enough, will have to answer to G*d

____

Re:

"I am a by choice and Reform"

___

Uh-oh...our really best Jewish reference (just ask him), ain't gonna like that you said the "R" (Reform) word.  For neshomamench, it's his way (the "O") word, or the highway!

Quoted: Mind if I quote your sig line in an article I hope to publish? "Homeland Security is the American People" Awesome, pity, in a nut shell rebuttal to the idea of throwing out Posse Commitatus and using the DOD as first responder in every natural and man-made disaster! IM me with whatever name I ought to assign the quote to. Thanks.

_________

I really don't see that TheWind indicated anything else than a simple tag-line.  I like his, and I've seen worse...you, too, probably.

Your comment is entirely off-topic, and I suspect you're just a

So tell us, who pissed in your bowl of Cherio's this morning?

Quoted: Scuba, listen man, Almost ever Jew in Israel is Orthodox I have several friends form Israel, they are Reform, the trouble with Israel is the Orthodox...they want control of everything Jewish, I am a by choice and Reform. I went to a synagouge with the purpose of coming home, no woman or job or anything aided my decision. According to Ruth 1:17....I am a Jew, according to Rambam, I am a gift...so you can take your hated and let it eat your heart up. THose that sit in judgement claiming you aren't Jewish enough, will have to answer to G*d

Aw come on man, If you did not have a conversion according to Halacha, You know damned well the Rambam would NOT under any curcumstances, for any reason, EVER consider you Jewish.  

Plus you are trying to create a meaningful statistic that is silly. If you are reformed, then it would follow that the people you know from Israel from your synogogue would be reformed as well.  In Israel there is not much of a reformed community. At any given time there will be more Reformed American Tourist in Israel than people who live there. The Reformed movement is new and only to be found in the west for the most part.

Again, Most everyone Jewish in Israel is Orthodox, dont confuse that with observant. In Israel, when a person passes away, lets say his family is secular, The service WILL NOT be reformed, it will be Orthodox. Hell, In the united states you find much of the same thing. MANY of the real Jews that are reformed all year long, or secular will go to an Orthodox Shul for the High Holidays.

BTW, Orthodox IS everything Jewish. In Judaism groups pop up from time to time but only Orthodoxy has an unboken chain. For much of Jewish History, Orthodoxy was the ONLY form of Judaism.

The Reformed movement has its roots in German Politics, and was nothing but a pulpit for the democratic party in America for most of its history. They took the Orthodox liturgy, condenced the hell out of it and made the whole service a mirror of a Protostant service.

Now, I am quite familiar with Reformed and Conservative Congragations. The Question is, How much time have you spent in an Orthodox Shul or a Yeshiva?

Quoted: neshomamench -- You would be wrong there.  Most Israelis are secular Jewish...actually most Israelis are Arab---even worse! Ed

No, you again, are trying to be a spokesperson on something you really are not well versed in. You are confusing the term Orthodox with the term Observant. While it is true most Israelies are on the secular side of the curve, When they do engage in Jewish things they do it in the Orthodox manner. It is that simple. Reformed Judaism, for the most part is a non issue in Israel with very little representaiton. The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government.

Quoted: Quoted: neshomamench -- You would be wrong there.  Most Israelis are secular Jewish...actually most Israelis are Arab---even worse! Ed No, you again, are trying to be a spokesperson on something you really are not well versed in. You are confusing the term Orthodox with the term Observant. While it is true most Israelies are on the secular side of the curve, When they do engage in Jewish things they do it in the Orthodox manner. It is that simple. Reformed Judaism, for the most part is a non issue in Israel with very little representaiton. The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government.

___

No, Sir---it is you who are blowing smoke.  I've never presented myself as a spokesperson in this forum--if I even thought there was an evil person such as you who would cause perversion upon any form of the Jewish faith, I would never have entered this forum.

Well, maybe just to inform you, huh?

Re:

"The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government."

___

Uhh...I'm lost at this response.  We were speaking of Judaism, and now you bring up the idea of American Jews and American money?

Where you get your ideas from, sir, is uncertain, at best.  

OK, so off topic. Sorry.

Should'a IM'ed him myself. so sue me (wait, don't. I can't afford it).

Don't see how an aside post = troll much less urinated bowl of Cheerios.

Quoted: OK, so off topic. Sorry. Should'a IM'ed him myself. so sue me (wait, don't. I can't afford it). Don't see how an aside post = troll much less urinated bowl of Cheerios.

___________

Well, JusAdBellum, ya jus' had the timing so wrong as to hitch-up w/ the wrong gravy-train.

And let me tell ya...for those of you who have'nt liked my Reform Judaism...wait until you hear from neshomamench...as much as he has little kindred amongst his fellow Jews...well, you Christians will be amazed at what he has to say for you.

And it pisses me off!  I have family who are Christian, and bretheren who are more Jewish than this neshomamench dude!.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: neshomamench -- You would be wrong there.  Most Israelis are secular Jewish...actually most Israelis are Arab---even worse! Ed No, you again, are trying to be a spokesperson on something you really are not well versed in. You are confusing the term Orthodox with the term Observant. While it is true most Israelies are on the secular side of the curve, When they do engage in Jewish things they do it in the Orthodox manner. It is that simple. Reformed Judaism, for the most part is a non issue in Israel with very little representaiton. The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government. ___ No, Sir---it is you who are blowing smoke.  I've never presented myself as a spokesperson in this forum--if I even thought there was an evil person such as you who would cause perversion upon any form of the Jewish faith, I would never have entered this forum. Well, maybe just to inform you, huh? Re: "The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government." ___ Uhh...I'm lost at this response.  We were speaking of Judaism, and now you bring up the idea of American Jews and American money? Where you get your ideas from, sir, is uncertain, at best.

You are not Jewish. It is that simple. You may be a wonderful person who does Jewish things and claims to be Jewish, but you are not Jewish. You can work at Ft Benning, You can know Army Rangers, You can be invited by the Rangers to do Things, you can write books on behalf of the Rangers. You can start your own group and call it the Rangers it may even have real Rangers as members but until you have gone through Ranger school and earned your Tab you are not a Ranger.

You speak on behalf of Judaism in this forum. From what I have read, much of what you have to say is correct. However some of the stuff you have stated goes against what is the universal veiw of Judaism. When you do such, dont be suprised if it is corrected.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: neshomamench -- You would be wrong there.  Most Israelis are secular Jewish...actually most Israelis are Arab---even worse! Ed No, you again, are trying to be a spokesperson on something you really are not well versed in. You are confusing the term Orthodox with the term Observant. While it is true most Israelies are on the secular side of the curve, When they do engage in Jewish things they do it in the Orthodox manner. It is that simple. Reformed Judaism, for the most part is a non issue in Israel with very little representaiton. The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government. ___ No, Sir---it is you who are blowing smoke.  I've never presented myself as a spokesperson in this forum--if I even thought there was an evil person such as you who would cause perversion upon any form of the Jewish faith, I would never have entered this forum. Well, maybe just to inform you, huh? Re: "The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government." ___ Uhh...I'm lost at this response.  We were speaking of Judaism, and now you bring up the idea of American Jews and American money? Where you get your ideas from, sir, is uncertain, at best.   You are not Jewish. It is that simple. You may be a wonderful person who does Jewish things and claims to be Jewish, but you are not Jewish. You can work at Ft Benning, You can know Army Rangers, You can be invited by the Rangers to do Things, you can write books on behalf of the Rangers. You can start your own group and call it the Rangers it may even have real Rangers as members but until you have gone through Ranger school and earned your Tab you are not a Ranger. You speak on behalf of Judaism in this forum. From what I have read, much of what you have to say is correct. However some of the stuff you have stated goes against what is the universal veiw of Judaism. When you do such, dont be suprised if it is corrected.

Your passion/absolute belief of the absolute perfection in the path that is Judaism, and your understanding and practicing of these truths in a JPOV, are not at question, its your communication skills that can be well....a bit arragant. The truth and understanding of the "Jewish path to G-d" cannot be fully appreciated or taught in a forum and for the most part, it is non-Jews with a CPOV that are reading this forum...

For you to voice this passion against those who are Jewish and simply classify them as...well..."You are not Jewish. It is that simple," is very condisending. Yes this is a forum and I will defend to the death your ability to speak your mind...but if you had a bit more tact, maybe the message you attempt to communicate would be better received....if thats what you really want....I assume you are not here just to....contradict

If you would, can you post a picture of the AR15 you shoot? BTW, my family is conservative (ya half a Jew)...

Good Shabbas....

Well you could say that one Jew here shows that there are many forms of Judiasm. It is sad that he only sees his, but then the Christians have their burden to carry...we have ours. I would take it that in a democracy at this point we have a 3 to 1 vote.....so Ed we are all Jews. I know that You, Silent and Myself would never Judge someone like that.

Quoted: If you would, can you post a picture of the AR15 you shoot? BTW, my family is conservative (ya half a Jew)... Good Shabbas....

Everyone wishes to twist my words. If you are Jewish, you are Jewish, it doesnt matter if you are conservative, reformed, Hindu, or an eskimo.

You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish or you had a Halachic conversion. That is all there is to it. If you meet one of those requirments, you are Jewish, if you dont you are not. There are no half Jews or Jews that are Jewish to some and not to others. You must meet the two requirments above. I am sorry if I have come off as arogant but people who are not Jewish are taking it uon themselves to relate information about Judaism under the guise that they are Jewish. Much of what they have to say is spot on. Some of it is blatently untrue. And I have brought the evidence to bear, not just "You are wrong because I say so"

As far as The AR-15 I shoot, witch one do you want?

Hell, this is me, Black hat Jew and all. (They opened a kosher Krispy Kream here a few weeks ago.) You want I should take a pic with my TziTzis showing?



No comment on the Hassid with his finger on the trigger, I am well aware of it, It was his first time shooting.

Quoted: Well you could say that one Jew here shows that there are many forms of Judiasm. It is sad that he only sees his, but then the Christians have their burden to carry...we have ours. I would take it that in a democracy at this point we have a 3 to 1 vote.....so Ed we are all Jews. I know that You, Silent and Myself would never Judge someone like that.

No, what you have is one form of Judaism that has always existed and from time to time groups that pop up. Then you have a few people that get their feelings hurt when Traditional Judaism does not consider them Jewish if they are not born of a Jewish mother or had a Halachic conversion.  Again. Their is only one group of Army Rangers. No matter what you call it, if you dont have your Ranger tab, you are not a Ranger. It has nothing to do with judgment. It is just the way it is.

Your insulting of fellow Jews does much to dishonor you...I do recall about how the T*r*h says to treat other?
I wonder if your Rebbe condones your actions?
Check your History, your group did not exist a 1,000 years ago....

Quoted: Your insulting of fellow Jews does much to dishonor you...I do recall about how the T*r*h says to treat other? I wonder if your Rebbe condones your actions?

One more time, If your mother was Jewish or you have had a Halachic Conversion, You are a Jew, I have in no way shape or form insulted any Jew....It doesnt matter what they believ....they are still every bit as Jewish as every Jew who has ever lived.

I am pointing out that people who that dont meet those requirments are not Jewish. Thus if they find it insulting, which it is not meant to be, that is their problem, they might be my friends, or kindred spirits, but they are not my fellow Jews.

As far as a Rebbe is concearned.....Goes to show what you know, you see black hat and assume Hassid....I am not, nor have I ever been a Hassid. Thus I have no Rebbe. Second, you will not find a Rebbe in the history of Judaism that doesnt agree with me on the issue of who is a Jew. Perhaps you should look into the writtings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on this very subject.....Or the Satmar Rebbe...or the Bobove Rebbe...or ....well you get the idea.

Quoted: Check your History, your group did not exist a 1,000 years ago....

Really? and what group would that be? The Torah was written 3400 years ago? The Mishnah was written down 1700 years ago.

And prey tell, because you are now showing you have no understanding of Judaism, What is the Diference Between a hassid and oh say, someone who is Yeshivish?  What did the Baal Shem Tov do that changed Halacha? Are you aware that someone from RAbbi Kaduries Shul can get an Aliya at Lakewood or Crown Heights....yet someone not borne of a Jewish mother or has had a halachic conversion can not?  Do you even understand what I am saying and how it utterly destroys the point you are trying to make.

Basicly, you dont know what you are talking about.

I know if you come into my Scul you would be a welcome guest and fellow Jew, my Dr who is orthodox, is ok with me being reform....
As for the Hassidiam....

The movement was founded by Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer (1700-1760), also known as the Ba'al Shem Tov[1]. It was formed in a time of persecution of the Jewish people, when European Jews had turned inward to Talmud study; many felt that most expressions of Jewish life had become too "academic", and that they no longer had any emphasis on spirituality or joy. The Ba'al Shem Tov set out to improve the situation. In its initial stages, Hasidism received opposition from several contemporary leaders, most notably the Vilna Gaon of Lithuania, united as the mitnagdim (Hebrew: "opposers

so they are only 500 years old?

Quoted: Quoted: Check your History, your group did not exist a 1,000 years ago.... Really? and what group would that be? The Torah was written 3400 years ago? The Mishnah was written down 1700 years ago. And prey tell, because you are now showing you have no understanding of Judaism, What is the Diference Between a hassid and oh say, someone who is Yeshivish?  What did the Baal Shem Tov do that changed Halacha? Are you aware that someone from RAbbi Kaduries Shul can get an Aliya at Lakewood or Crown Heights....yet someone not borne of a Jewish mother or has had a halachic conversion can not?  Do you even understand what I am saying and how it utterly destroys the point you are trying to make. Basicly, you dont know what you are talking about.

Mench....please, what is your objective with this forum, to educate? Please, be a mench....I do not wish to "twist words" but look at this objectively. The framework you use to show your knowledge in Judaism (and your passion) is heavy handed and a little childish I ask again....be a mench...

L'Shana Tova

Quoted: I know if you come into my Scul you would be a welcome guest and fellow Jew, my Dr who is orthodox, is ok with me being reform.... As for the Hassidiam.... The movement was founded by Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer (1700-1760), also known as the Ba'al Shem Tov[1]. It was formed in a time of persecution of the Jewish people, when European Jews had turned inward to Talmud study; many felt that most expressions of Jewish life had become too "academic", and that they no longer had any emphasis on spirituality or joy. The Ba'al Shem Tov set out to improve the situation. In its initial stages, Hasidism received opposition from several contemporary leaders, most notably the Vilna Gaon of Lithuania, united as the mitnagdim (Hebrew: "opposers so they are only 500 years old?

You have just proved that you do not read what is posted. Instead you are going to make assertions and post what you wish based on that. I stated I am NOT a Hassid nor have I ever been, and you wouldnt know the differnce because your understanding of Judaism is seriously lacking. Read my post about who can have an Aliya in whose Shul.  You dont even have a basic understanding of your heritage if you are a Jew if you dont understand the most basic concepts between Halacha and Minhag.



I am Orthodox, and if you want to be reformed be reformed. If your mother was Jewish or you have had a Halachic conversion you are Jewish. But if you have not, this Doctor, WOULD NEVER, EVER count you for a minyan. It is one thing to be nice, but you wont find him breaking Jewish law for your sake if you dont fit the requirments.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Check your History, your group did not exist a 1,000 years ago.... Really? and what group would that be? The Torah was written 3400 years ago? The Mishnah was written down 1700 years ago. And prey tell, because you are now showing you have no understanding of Judaism, What is the Diference Between a hassid and oh say, someone who is Yeshivish?  What did the Baal Shem Tov do that changed Halacha? Are you aware that someone from RAbbi Kaduries Shul can get an Aliya at Lakewood or Crown Heights....yet someone not borne of a Jewish mother or has had a halachic conversion can not?  Do you even understand what I am saying and how it utterly destroys the point you are trying to make. Basicly, you dont know what you are talking about. Mench....please, what is your objective with this forum, to educate? Please, be a mench....I do not wish to "twist words" but look at this objectively. The framework you use to show your knowledge in Judaism (and your passion) is heavy handed and a little childish I ask again....be a mench... L'Shana Tova

Negative, you have people on here that may or may not be Jewish who are speaking on behalf of Judaism and they dont know about much less understand some of the most basic and universal tenants of traditional Judaism.

If that bothers some people, so be it. I am out, Shabbos is comming.

Quoted: Uh, You ever served in the IDF? You do realize almost every Jew in the IDF is orthodox. They may not all be very OBSERVANT. But when they do get to doing Jewish things it is going to be done in the orthodox manner only. The same goes for most of the Jewish population of the world outside of America.

I did serve in the IDF, am still listed on the duty rolls of the IDF, and i can say for sure that you are wrong.  Most jews in the idf are not orthodox (da'ati) and would be insulted to be called that.  most people take pride in belonging to whatever group they choose to associate with.  you are right in saying that the jewish things that are done in the idf are done according to halacha, but most of those ritual observance are done by mashakey daat- ncos who are responsible for halchachic matters- the rest of the soldiers probably couldnt care.
the problem is- you are assuming that the other soldiers care enough to take part in those rituals like prayers...  i know that in my particular unit nobody cared.  it was to such an extent that our kitchens were not kosher (private kitchens in our dorms, the main dining room still was) and no one had a problem with that.
It is very bad to generalize about things which you only have heard about- the army is different in every unit, and it is impossible to describe the status of the army because of the varrying levels of observance....

Quoted: Quoted: Uh, You ever served in the IDF? You do realize almost every Jew in the IDF is orthodox. They may not all be very OBSERVANT. But when they do get to doing Jewish things it is going to be done in the orthodox manner only. The same goes for most of the Jewish population of the world outside of America. ............you are right in saying that the jewish things that are done in the idf are done according to halacha, ..............and it is impossible to describe the status of the army because of the varrying levels of observance............

I do believe that is the point I was trying to make. Dont confuse the term Orthodox with level of observance.  Seriously, you know as well as I do, many people in Israel may not be observant at all, but when they do get to doing Jewish things they are going to do it in an Orthodox manner.  There is not a lot of Reformed activity going on in Israel.

Thats it folks, it is candle lighing time.

neshomamench...you silly scoundrel you!

It's Shabbat...you should not be at your computer, nor using electricity, nor any other means to communicate.  You, as an Orthodox Jew, should be at rest...and not being a pain in the...well, a prick!

You, my Jewish friend, and I had hoped we were friends, are false to whatever held over other forms of Judaism which you so sorely viewed as an afront to your Orthodoxy.

By any measure, Sir, and by your own actions, you are a TROLL.



___

Ed

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Check your History, your group did not exist a 1,000 years ago.... Really? and what group would that be? The Torah was written 3400 years ago? The Mishnah was written down 1700 years ago. And prey tell, because you are now showing you have no understanding of Judaism, What is the Diference Between a hassid and oh say, someone who is Yeshivish?  What did the Baal Shem Tov do that changed Halacha? Are you aware that someone from RAbbi Kaduries Shul can get an Aliya at Lakewood or Crown Heights....yet someone not borne of a Jewish mother or has had a halachic conversion can not?  Do you even understand what I am saying and how it utterly destroys the point you are trying to make. Basicly, you dont know what you are talking about. Mench....please, what is your objective with this forum, to educate? Please, be a mench....I do not wish to "twist words" but look at this objectively. The framework you use to show your knowledge in Judaism (and your passion) is heavy handed and a little childish I ask again....be a mench... L'Shana Tova Negative, you have people on here that may or may not be Jewish who are speaking on behalf of Judaism and they dont know about much less understand some of the most basic and universal tenants of traditional Judaism. If that bothers some people, so be it. I am out, Shabbos is comming.

______________

Re:

"...that bothers some people, so be it. I am out, Shabbos is comming"

___

Well, then...you did a really fine job at preparing your mind for Shabbos, didn't you ?!?

The hate...the hurt...the insanity.  I would have expected better behavior of such an exaulted Jew as you portray yourself before observing Shabbos.

Torah true?  You portray the worst of everything that is holy to Judaism.

Well Said Ed...and a Good Shabbos to you

Quoted: Well, then...you did a really fine job at preparing your mind for Shabbos, didn't you ?!? The hate...the hurt...the insanity.  I would have expected better behavior of such an exaulted Jew as you portray yourself before observing Shabbos. Torah true?  You portray the worst of everything that is holy to Judaism.

You are not Jewish. You are uneducated about some very clear things in Judaism. I can also clearly see your understanding of Kedoshim is off as well.

Quoted: I still find your original post offensive, and against this forums rules. If you really wanted an answer to some questions, why didn't you just ask why Jews do or don't do something? You stated points of critisizm as facts (at least as you know them). This thread should be locked also, but since scuba_ed has decided to take up the discussion, I'll leave it open for now. Plus, if a thread is locked due to the information contained in it, and you go and repost the same info. That is violation of the CoC, and grounds for your account to be locked. If you are really that unsure of what is or isn't allowed in this forum, you can just send me an IM and ask before posting it. You did send me an IM tonight, and I'm going to respond to it in a minute.   Whether or not his post violates COC is your decision but for the record I did not find it offensive.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, then...you did a really fine job at preparing your mind for Shabbos, didn't you ?!? The hate...the hurt...the insanity.  I would have expected better behavior of such an exaulted Jew as you portray yourself before observing Shabbos. Torah true?  You portray the worst of everything that is holy to Judaism. You are not Jewish. You are uneducated about some very clear things in Judaism. I can also clearly see your understanding of Kedoshim is off as well. Do you have something to back up your statements about the other members not being jewish? If you are going to attack other members faith here, you better have something to back it up. If it just what you beleive, then please keep that to yourself. Attacking other members beleifs is not allowed in this forum.

Yes. There are many ways I can do this. But for the sake of understanding, I will do it this way.

Scuba has already laid down his history and the conversion he had. This is Judaism 101 stuff. He doesnt meet the requirments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

The traditional definition of a Jew is "someone born to a Jewish mother or who has converted to Judaism." The requirement for a valid conversion is that the candidate for conversion understand the obligations of being a Jew, show commitment to fulfilling these obligations, undergo Brit milah (ritual male circumcision) or one of its exceptions, perform immersion in a mikvah, and satisfy the scrutiny of a Beit din, or rabbinical court. The beit din act not only as judges but as witnesses in the course of conversion, and it follows that its members must be kosher, i.e. suitable and qualified for these purposes.

His Beit Din was not "Kosher" if he even had one, whitchhe has never said he did.

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=194&o=2434






What is the basic conversion process?
A conversion must be performed by a qualified rabbinical court. In order for a conversion to be valid, the prospective convert must accept upon him/herself all the laws of the Torah. Otherwise the conversion is worthless. This means not working, driving or watching TV on Shabbat; keeping kosher at home and away; keeping the laws of mikvah, and much, much more. Upon accepting all the principle beliefs of Judaism and all the mitzvot, it is necessary to go to the mikvah (a ritual bath) and if the convert is a male, he must be circumcised.


The Links are endless. While he is a Member of a group that is made up in part, by real Jews, and people who convert to that Group call themselves Jewish, that does nto make it so. His Marriage WILL not be recognized by the Cheif Rabbinate of Israel.  He MAY NOT be counted or participate in rituals at ANY Traditional Jewish Shul on the Planet. If His Wife is of the Same Status, his Children will not be Jewish. He Can NOT be Buried in a Traditional Jewish Cemetary, Traditional Jews WILL NOT eat in his home....and the list goes on.

If you would like to Check for yourself, Open your Phone Book and call A Chabad House. This would be an authorative Place to get Questions answered about Traditional Judaism. Most every Large town has one. If that is enough for you, Call the Israeli consulate.

It is Real simple. For Thousands of Years, The Requirment to be a Jew has been "IF you are borne of a JEwish Mother, you are a JEw"....He was not. "If you have had a conversion According to Halacha you are a Jew"....He did not.  This is an absolute and is universal without any disention among Traditional Judaism. He might be a great guy, and withing his group they might call him Jewish, but that does not make it so.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: neshomamench -- You would be wrong there.  Most Israelis are secular Jewish...actually most Israelis are Arab---even worse! Ed No, you again, are trying to be a spokesperson on something you really are not well versed in. You are confusing the term Orthodox with the term Observant. While it is true most Israelies are on the secular side of the curve, When they do engage in Jewish things they do it in the Orthodox manner. It is that simple. Reformed Judaism, for the most part is a non issue in Israel with very little representaiton. The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government. ___ No, Sir---it is you who are blowing smoke.  I've never presented myself as a spokesperson in this forum--if I even thought there was an evil person such as you who would cause perversion upon any form of the Jewish faith, I would never have entered this forum. Well, maybe just to inform you, huh? Re: "The only voice it has are rich Americans that pressure secular factions of the government." ___ Uhh...I'm lost at this response.  We were speaking of Judaism, and now you bring up the idea of American Jews and American money? Where you get your ideas from, sir, is uncertain, at best.   You are not Jewish. It is that simple. You may be a wonderful person who does Jewish things and claims to be Jewish, but you are not Jewish. You can work at Ft Benning, You can know Army Rangers, You can be invited by the Rangers to do Things, you can write books on behalf of the Rangers. You can start your own group and call it the Rangers it may even have real Rangers as members but until you have gone through Ranger school and earned your Tab you are not a Ranger. You speak on behalf of Judaism in this forum. From what I have read, much of what you have to say is correct. However some of the stuff you have stated goes against what is the universal veiw of Judaism. When you do such, dont be suprised if it is corrected. Your passion/absolute belief of the absolute perfection in the path that is Judaism, and your understanding and practicing of these truths in a JPOV, are not at question, its your communication skills that can be well....a bit arragant. The truth and understanding of the "Jewish path to G-d" cannot be fully appreciated or taught in a forum and for the most part, it is non-Jews with a CPOV that are reading this forum... For you to voice this passion against those who are Jewish and simply classify them as...well..."You are not Jewish. It is that simple," is very condisending. Yes this is a forum and I will defend to the death your ability to speak your mind...but if you had a bit more tact, maybe the message you attempt to communicate would be better received....if thats what you really want....I assume you are not here just to....contradict If you would, can you post a picture of the AR15 you shoot? BTW, my family is conservative (ya half a Jew)... Good Shabbas....

____

Yeah...what he said so well!