Quoted: According to some of you, God should apologize to the people of the original Soddom and Gommorah, and everybody else He has brought judgment upon. I'm not a prophet, so I can't say whether or not it was His hand saying, "Enough!"  Maybe He just removed His hand that had protected the city for so long, like He did with Job (although for different reasons).  I don't know. However, there is a principle that is constant throughout history. Sowing and reaping.  Actions beget consequences. NO not only was a place of sin (Yes- the S word!), but they revelled in it and took pride in it.  From the debauchery of these festivals like Southern Decadence and Mardi Gras, to their government.  I lived in Louisiana for four years and one thing I saw was that they take PRIDE in this stuff.  Heck, government corruption is winked at.  Huey Long is a HERO to the people of Louisiana.  When I was there the governor was indicted on 52 counts of corruption, fraud, etc.  He was a hero to the people. Sowing and Reaping. If Yahweh were to wink at the sin, or pretend He doesn't see it, He would cease to be holy and just.  He will not cease being who He is to gratify our humanistic, "tolerant" philosophies.

Well said.

Quoted: Quoted: According to some of you, God should apologize to the people of the original Soddom and Gommorah, and everybody else He has brought judgment upon. I'm not a prophet, so I can't say whether or not it was His hand saying, "Enough!"  Maybe He just removed His hand that had protected the city for so long, like He did with Job (although for different reasons).  I don't know. However, there is a principle that is constant throughout history. Sowing and reaping.  Actions beget consequences. NO not only was a place of sin (Yes- the S word!), but they revelled in it and took pride in it.  From the debauchery of these festivals like Southern Decadence and Mardi Gras, to their government.  I lived in Louisiana for four years and one thing I saw was that they take PRIDE in this stuff.  Heck, government corruption is winked at.  Huey Long is a HERO to the people of Louisiana.  When I was there the governor was indicted on 52 counts of corruption, fraud, etc.  He was a hero to the people. Sowing and Reaping. If Yahweh were to wink at the sin, or pretend He doesn't see it, He would cease to be holy and just.  He will not cease being who He is to gratify our humanistic, "tolerant" philosophies. Well said.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: According to some of you, God should apologize to the people of the original Soddom and Gommorah, and everybody else He has brought judgment upon. I'm not a prophet, so I can't say whether or not it was His hand saying, "Enough!"  Maybe He just removed His hand that had protected the city for so long, like He did with Job (although for different reasons).  I don't know. However, there is a principle that is constant throughout history. Sowing and reaping.  Actions beget consequences. NO not only was a place of sin (Yes- the S word!), but they revelled in it and took pride in it.  From the debauchery of these festivals like Southern Decadence and Mardi Gras, to their government.  I lived in Louisiana for four years and one thing I saw was that they take PRIDE in this stuff.  Heck, government corruption is winked at.  Huey Long is a HERO to the people of Louisiana.  When I was there the governor was indicted on 52 counts of corruption, fraud, etc.  He was a hero to the people. Sowing and Reaping. If Yahweh were to wink at the sin, or pretend He doesn't see it, He would cease to be holy and just.  He will not cease being who He is to gratify our humanistic, "tolerant" philosophies. Well said. +1

In light of the recent things coming out, the beheadings and mutilations, etc in the Convention Center, there is a lot about New Orleans that we did not know about.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: According to some of you, God should apologize to the people of the original Soddom and Gommorah, and everybody else He has brought judgment upon. I'm not a prophet, so I can't say whether or not it was His hand saying, "Enough!"  Maybe He just removed His hand that had protected the city for so long, like He did with Job (although for different reasons).  I don't know. However, there is a principle that is constant throughout history. Sowing and reaping.  Actions beget consequences. NO not only was a place of sin (Yes- the S word!), but they revelled in it and took pride in it.  From the debauchery of these festivals like Southern Decadence and Mardi Gras, to their government.  I lived in Louisiana for four years and one thing I saw was that they take PRIDE in this stuff.  Heck, government corruption is winked at.  Huey Long is a HERO to the people of Louisiana.  When I was there the governor was indicted on 52 counts of corruption, fraud, etc.  He was a hero to the people. Sowing and Reaping. If Yahweh were to wink at the sin, or pretend He doesn't see it, He would cease to be holy and just.  He will not cease being who He is to gratify our humanistic, "tolerant" philosophies. Well said. +1 In light of the recent things coming out, the beheadings and mutilations, etc in the Convention Center, there is a lot about New Orleans that we did not know about.

Well said.

I agree with Brohawk.
New Orleans and Louisiana  are cessppols.  Huey Long corruption still exists there and in some parishes (counties) outside New Orleans I read in Readers Digest that people are stopped and their cars confiscated under RICO and the drivers falsely arrested for drugs the searching dog supposedly sniffed in the ashtrays.  The victims are charged with drug posession and fined in addition to their nice cars seized.  The parish prosecutor drives a seized Corvette.  That was about August 1995 for anyone who wants to look it up.  
New Orleans is also famous for their clip joint whore houses (anyone remember the song House of the Rising Sun?)  I myself said to some scammers "you're more crooked than a New Orleans whore house" years before the hurricane.
The timing of the disaster was also before the decadence celebration.  
There are those who say that G-d is punishing Bush for pressuring Israel to give Gaza to the terrorists.  One was a Baptist priest another was a rabbi in Israel.  I don't have any way to know G-d 's reason for the disaster but there are many similarities.  Both Gaza and New Orleans are on the southern coasts, the number of people driven out of Gaza was 11,000 same as the number of dead.  The new homeless in Gaza were 11,000, the homeless in the flood area are 550,000.  Fifty times the homeless in Israel, the US population is 50 times greater than Israel's.  
Terrorists rained rockets on the Jews in Gaza, looters and rapists terrorized people in Louisiana.
There are many other similarities in the disasters which I can't explain.  

I think it wouldve been more dramatic, and the city would be impossible to rebuild if God intended to destroy it.  This may just have been a wakeup call or the start of a series of events to come.

Quoted: I think it wouldve been more dramatic, and the city would be impossible to rebuild if God intended to destroy it.  This may just have been a wakeup call or the start of a series of events to come.

Well, with Nagin letting people come back into that sewage-contaminated city, we might see a plague next.

in my mind, God did not send this hurricane to destroy NO nor is it a modern day Soddom and Gomorrah.  If God would have wanted to punish/destroy them then there would have been no warning and, as others have pointed out, it would have been NO or only certian people that would have been destroyed.  As it was, most of the city, and the really evil people, left before the hurricane hit and instead only the elderly, sick, ect. were left to die in the hurricane.  These were the innocents.  If God wanted to punish the evil ones, more power to Him, but it is not for us as humans to decide.

As my Buddhist lesbian roommate pointed out (and I have modified) this hurricane is more a result of us not taking care of the earth we were given to care for and, in my mind it is more a result of mans sin nature.  We are getting progressivly worse as a world so things are naturally getting worse.  We Christians need to concern ourselves more with our own crap instead of looking at how "evil" everyone else is.  

Now i am just ranting but, I have seen more Christians that all they do is walk around and judge others instead of looking at the plank in their own eye.  Remember that one?  WE CHRISTIANS are what is making this world and country collapse because we are looking at how horrible everyone else is instead of trying to save them.  SAVE THEM, DON'T JUDGE THEM!!!!

Quoted: We Christians need to concern ourselves more with our own crap instead of looking at how "evil" everyone else is.

While the church does indeed have its share of troubles and things that need straightening, we are not called to turn a blind eye to sin, nor wink at it.  

Is that a call for tolerance, as it is defined today?  Uncritical and accepting of everything, even if we know it is wrong?

We are called to be salt and light to the world, not cultural chameleons.

Now i am just ranting but, I have seen more Christians that all they do is walk around and judge others instead of looking at the plank in their own eye.  Remember that one?  WE CHRISTIANS are what is making this world and country collapse because we are looking at how horrible everyone else is instead of trying to save them.  SAVE THEM, DON'T JUDGE THEM!!!!

I can't save them, only Jesus can.  But here's a question: Save them from what?

Save them from hell?  That sounds good, but there was a post last month (IIRC) that made the point that we emphasize Jesus saving them from hell, and neglect the message of Jesus saving them from sin.

Sin is the root cause of the troubles we see.  And yes, there is sin in the church as well as the world.  Part of the reason for that is the churches have become Christian self-help centers.  They teach how to be a better parent, how to manage your finances God's way, how to improve your marriage, ad nauseum.

If we don't educate them about sin, its effects on them & the world, and how to be delivered from it through Jesus, we're not really helping them.

Imagine being in a burning building, filled with smoke.  You are familiar with the layout of it, but others aren't.  You know the way to the exit, even though the smoke renders sight useless.  However, others in the building don't know the way out.  Do you say, "Follow me!  If you stay here you'll die!", or do you crawl past, not wanting to appear bossy or judgmental?  

How many churches actually mention sin and its effect of separating us from God?  Not many these days.  It's an unpopular message.  

In John 7:24 Jesus said, "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

Here He said we are to exercise judgment, as in discernment.  It's not our place to judge who goes to hell and who goes to heaven, but we are called to expose sin and call people to repentance.

Politically incorrect?  You bet.

If Jesus had been PC He wouldn't have been put on that cross.

BTW, 7_62_54, this is the first post of yours I've noticed.  Welcome aboard.

Quoted: As my Buddhist lesbian roommate pointed out...

Sorry, but that doesn't carry a lot of credibility with me.

"While the church does indeed have its share of troubles and things that need straightening, we are not called to turn a blind eye to sin, nor wink at it.

Is that a call for tolerance, as it is defined today? Uncritical and accepting of everything, even if we know it is wrong?

We are called to be salt and light to the world, not cultural chameleons."

First of all, I didn't say ANYTHING about accepting the sin that is going on down there.  I just don't like to see a bunch of Christians talking about other peoples problems instead of the ones going on in front of our noses.  I admit I haven't looked around this forum to much but I still haven't see a lot of things discussing problems within the Body.  

One thing I do think is that we have to be more understanding of where others are coming from.  I have met a lot of spiritually hungry people who hate Christians because they only seem to met the ones that hate everything but Christianity.  We are supposed to be loving toward those we share the Gospel with, not bitter, angry, people.  I don't know if this makes any sense or not, I have been up for way to long.

I understand your point about only Jesus saving them.  I just worded it wrong.  What I meant was, how many of those people are hearing the Gospel to aid in changing their lives, futures and maybe even the rebuilt city of NO.  I haven't heard of any missionaries or church groups down there.

I am not politically correct by any means, especially lately.  I just try to listen to peoples stories, understand where they come from, and point out times when God may have been working in their lives.  I don't, and will not, point a bony finger and call them a horrible sinner because of their past.

Thanks for the welcome, I have never posted in this forum before, but I have been here for awhile.

Quoted: Quoted: As my Buddhist lesbian roommate pointed out...   Sorry, but that doesn't carry a lot of credibility with me.

That may be true for you, but you have judged before you knew her.  She has helped me grow in my faith and spirituality more than any Christian before has.  I don't intend to pick on you, but you are part of Christianities problem.  You judge her because of two words I used to describe her.  Would you be willing to witness to a lesbian buddhist with tatoos and piercings?  I admit, I didn't want to work with her because it is just the two of us, but I have grown in many ways by knowing her and other non-Christian people.  I will always try to save her and others like her, but it is their choice.  As you said in your previous post, we cannot save them, only Jesus can.  I hope and pray that someday He will save her.  She is one of the best people I have ever known, once you get past the rough edges.

Quoted: That may be true for you, but you have judged before you knew her.  She has helped me grow in my faith and spirituality more than any Christian before has.  I don't intend to pick on you, but you are part of Christianities problem.  You judge her because of two words I used to describe her.

Ah, I exercised discernment in obedience with the verse I quoted above.

I'm not going to seek spiritual truth from a person who:

a) Is in a lifestyle of sin (disobedience to God), and

b) Follows a belief system that is at odds with the doctrines and principles of Christianity.

Would you be willing to witness to a lesbian buddhist with tatoos and piercings?

I'll share my faith with anyone who is interested.

She is one of the best people I have ever known, once you get past the rough edges.

Of course I don't know enough about her to determine whether or not she is a generally decent, caring person.  However, there are many atheists and pagans who are decent people.  That is not enough.

The whole message of Christianity is that we can't be good enough, and that we need a Savior.

And repentance isn't optional.  There is a lot from my life BC that I turned from and left behind.

Quoted: Quoted: That may be true for you, but you have judged before you knew her.  She has helped me grow in my faith and spirituality more than any Christian before has.  I don't intend to pick on you, but you are part of Christianities problem.  You judge her because of two words I used to describe her.   Ah, I exercised discernment in obedience with the verse I quoted above. I'm not going to seek spiritual truth from a person who: a) Is in a lifestyle of sin (disobedience to God), and b) Follows a belief system that is at odds with the doctrines and principles of Christianity. Would you be willing to witness to a lesbian buddhist with tatoos and piercings?   I'll share my faith with anyone who is interested. She is one of the best people I have ever known, once you get past the rough edges. Of course I don't know enough about her to determine whether or not she is a generally decent, caring person.  However, there are many atheists and pagans who are decent people.  That is not enough. The whole message of Christianity is that we can't be good enough, and that we need a Savior. And repentance isn't optional.  There is a lot from my life BC that I turned from and left behind.

Very well put....

This is why I hate forums like this.  You can't get an honest good discussion going.  All you get is one person who thinks he has all the answers and everyone else follows.  YOU, sir, are not the shepherd I follow.  Think of me what you will, but my roommate has been more a friend to me than ANY CHRISTIAN I have ever known.  You are picking out the points you want to argue and are not understanding what I am trying to say, but then you don't want to understand what I say.

In your replies you say things that imply complete opposites from what I am trying to say.  I never said repentance wasn't optional, that is something you very incorrectly infered from what I was saying.  Once again, and for the last time, you are a problem with Christianity.  I am to at times.  Everyone is, but you refuse to acknowledge that.

Quoted: This is why I hate forums like this.  You can't get an honest good discussion going.  All you get is one person who thinks he has all the answers and everyone else follows.  YOU, sir, are not the shepherd I follow.  Think of me what you will, but my roommate has been more a friend to me than ANY CHRISTIAN I have ever known.  You are picking out the points you want to argue and are not understanding what I am trying to say, but then you don't want to understand what I say. In your replies you say things that imply complete opposites from what I am trying to say.  I never said repentance wasn't optional, that is something you very incorrectly infered from what I was saying.  Once again, and for the last time, you are a problem with Christianity.  I am to at times.  Everyone is, but you refuse to acknowledge that.

I hate to break it to you, but whether your friend is a good person or not is irrelevant - nevermind the fact that there are no 'good people' anyway.


Now, if you'd like to , maybe we could 'start over' here by having you re-state the position you are trying to defend.

Quoted: This is why I hate forums like this.  You can't get an honest good discussion going.  All you get is one person who thinks he has all the answers and everyone else follows.  YOU, sir, are not the shepherd I follow.  Think of me what you will, but my roommate has been more a friend to me than ANY CHRISTIAN I have ever known.  You are picking out the points you want to argue and are not understanding what I am trying to say, but then you don't want to understand what I say. In your replies you say things that imply complete opposites from what I am trying to say.  I never said repentance wasn't optional, that is something you very incorrectly infered from what I was saying.  Once again, and for the last time, you are a problem with Christianity.  I am to at times.  Everyone is, but you refuse to acknowledge that.

I think the discussion is good, and completely honest.

Nothing in his reply indicated that he felt that you should follow HIM. He was clear in what the scripture teaches. Period.

Nobody wants to hear about sin anymore. Hearing about it makes people feel bad, which isn't politically correct.

Quoted: This is why I hate forums like this.  You can't get an honest good discussion going.

why are you becoming offended?  I am sorry that you feel that way, and in my honest opinion, no one has said anything derogatory or tried to lead anyone down a thorny path yet.  I think this has been a VERY insightful thread, for those on all sides of the argument.

All you get is one person who thinks he has all the answers and everyone else follows.  YOU, sir, are not the shepherd I follow.  Think of me what you will, but my roommate has been more a friend to me than ANY CHRISTIAN I have ever known.  You are picking out the points you want to argue and are not understanding what I am trying to say, but then you don't want to understand what I say.

she may be the nicest, most humble friend you will ever have, but the bottom line is that she is a lost soul unless you begin to stress to her how she needs our Saviour Jesus Christ in her life to rescue her from certain death.  Please, if you really care for her, ask your heart and ask Jesus what is the best thing for you do to help her.

Quoted: This is why I hate forums like this.  You can't get an honest good discussion going.

Believe me, my friend, I will be nothing but honest with you.

All you get is one person who thinks he has all the answers and everyone else follows.

No, I don't have all the answers, but I know Someone who does.

YOU, sir, are not the shepherd I follow.

I'm not seeking followers.  I am trying to speak Truth as it is found in the Bible.

BTW, in seeking a shepherd to follow, make sure you pick one who tells you what you need to hear.  This can be very different from what you want to hear.

Think of me what you will, but my roommate has been more a friend to me than ANY CHRISTIAN I have ever known.

I hadn't really formed an opinion about you yet, and I never said your roommate was a bad person.

Unrepentant in lifestyle and spiritually misguided maybe, but not bad.

The main difference between me and her is that I have accepted God's offer of grace and forgiveness which provided for my salvation.  I give the credit all to Him.  I have no personal glory to seek.  I don't see myself as being better than her or you.  I know who I am and how underserving I am of His grace.

You are picking out the points you want to argue and are not understanding what I am trying to say, but then you don't want to understand what I say.

I'm reading what you are writing.  If you care to expound so I can understand you better, please do.  I'm all ears---er---eyes.

In your replies you say things that imply complete opposites from what I am trying to say.  I never said repentance wasn't optional, that is something you very incorrectly infered from what I was saying.

Your praise of your roommate implies uncritical acceptance of her lifestyle, which is in conflict with what scripture teaches.  Maybe I'm misreading something here.  Do you share the Word with her, and explain that God loves her and has something better for her?  Or would that sound judgmental?

Once again, and for the last time, you are a problem with Christianity.

Please be patient with me.  I'm working on it.

Everyone is, but you refuse to acknowledge that.

I acknowledge that the Bible, as illuminated by teh guidance of the Holy Spirit, is a reliable guide in life.  It provides the measuring stick for evaluating and understanding the world around us.  It explains the connection between behavior and consequences, and the One Way to escape those consequences that we have all earned:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

If I may ask, what is your opinion on the Bible and its authority?

I am not saying that my friend isn't lost, I know that she is.  I do try to share the Gospel and Word with her.  I DO NOT condon her lifestyle, but, for lack of a better term, she is not 'practicing' right now.  No I don't think that makes things all right.  It just seems to me that most people are unwilling to admit that there is good in her even though she sins.  I sin yet there is still good in me.  You all sin yet there is good in you.  Can I not even Biblically recognize that she is a good person?  Part of the problem I have run into in talking with her is that she was raised in a very strict Mormon home.  She has told me she has problems with Christianity, yet she views Mormons as 'saved'.  

I have no idea whether she is 'saved' or not, and I probably won't until I go to heaven unless things change drastically.  I can see that she is conflicted in many of the things she does, for whatever reason though I prefer to think God is speaking to her.

Brohawk, you never did say she was a bad person, but to me there was a strong implication of that.  I know that God has all the answers to, and what I am meaning is that I think there are somethings that are better left to Him, mainly judgement of anyone.  We are to judge each other as Christians; if we are in sin and others can see it, they are to come to us and point it out, then come with witnesses, then bring it before the church, then shunning until repentance if necessary.  I do not see that many Christians are willing to do this today.  Even if they know something is going on they refuse to say anything, yet they (and I) can judge those outside the Church till we are blue in the face.  My point is, we are to love those in and out of the Church, judgement gets you know where in sharing the Gospel.  Like you said in one of your previous posts said, to often we concentrate on saving people from hell instead of from sin.  You are right in that people don't want to talk about sin anymore, I am obviously guilty of it also.
I wholely believe the Bible and I believe that it is the true authority on how we should live our lives.  I admit that I am not as well read as I should be though.

I apologize, for not being able to clearly state what I mean.  With recent events, this is a touchy subject for me that gets me riled very easily and I apologize for being rude.

I will try to compose my thoughts better and start from the beginning.  It may take a few days.

ETA: don't be to surprised if I don't return.  There are just to many things to cover now.  And many things that I said that you have blown out of proportion.  It has been a good discussion though

BTW, in seeking a shepherd to follow, make sure you pick one who tells you what you need to hear. This can be very different from what you want to hear.

Ok, after re-reading this statement I have decided that you are nothing but a, well Jesus wouldn't want me to say what I am thinking right now.  You twist what everyone says.  You DO think you know everything about everything.  It is pointless for me to continue this because I am out numbered and no on is actually paying attention to what I am saying.  God Bless.

7_62_54,
 are you espousing a "love the sinner, hate the sin" view?

I think a lot of the Chrisitians here would agree with that.    

Finally, a voice of understanding.  Yes, Dino, that is exactly what I am saying.

Quoted: You all sin yet there is good in you.

Not in me, apart from Jesus.  

Can I not even Biblically recognize that she is a good person?

You can acknowledge that she doesn't lie, steal, etc.  But the word "good" means different things, whether you look at it from a human perspective or from God's.

Brohawk, you never did say she was a bad person, but to me there was a strong implication of that.

If you go back and look, I focused on actions, not personal attacks.  Loving the sinner, hating the  sin.  

My point is, we are to love those in and out of the Church, judgement gets you know where in sharing the Gospel.

Judgment (as in "You're going to hell, you filthy sinner!") is not a good thing.  Telling the Truth is.  And it is a fact that some people are offended by the Truth.  That's their problem.  I didn't create the message.  If they have a problem with it, they can take it up with God.  He's not afraid of the tough questions.

I wholely believe the Bible and I believe that it is the true authority on how we should live our lives.  I admit that I am not as well read as I should be though.

That's a firm foundation!  Glad to hear it!

None of us are as well versed in it as we should be, but the point is to keep learning, keep growing, and press on ahead.

I apologize, for not being able to clearly state what I mean.  With recent events, this is a touchy subject for me that gets me riled very easily and I apologize for being rude.

In this type of medium, it can be difficult to concisely express thoughts, especially on a sensitive and complex subject.  Sometimes we need to go back & forth a bit for the real intent to come out.

Absolutely no offense taken!

Quoted: BTW, in seeking a shepherd to follow, make sure you pick one who tells you what you need to hear. This can be very different from what you want to hear. Ok, after re-reading this statement I have decided that you are nothing but a, well Jesus wouldn't want me to say what I am thinking right now.  You twist what everyone says.  You DO think you know everything about everything.  It is pointless for me to continue this because I am out numbered and no on is actually paying attention to what I am saying.  God Bless.

No, you misunderstand.

I was speaking from personal experience.

Some years back I was attending a church where the pastor spoke the unvarnished Truth, without regard to people's opinions.  If you asked him what he thought on a topic he'd reply, "You don't want to know what I think, but let's open the Bible and see what God says about it."

I had some things in my life that were out of order, and I started to get offended at the content of some of his sermons.

I left that church and started attending one that had a consistently upbeat, positive, encouraging message.  

It felt good.

However, on Fathers' Day the pastor at my new church was saying, "You dads are doing a great job!  Keep it up!"

I was sitting there thinking, "Baloney!  I'm making a mess ouot of my family and I need someone to tell me how to straighten it out!"

That's when I realized that I was starving to death on the milquetoast served at that church.

I returned to my previous church with a fresh appreciation for the Truth and learning under someone who would not water down the message for the sake of being accepted or popular.

Now, if I am offended by something in a sermon, I ask myself, "Is it because the pastor is wrong, or is it because there is a problem in me that needs to be fixed?"  Usually the problem is on my side of the fence, and accepting a hard, honest message leads to growth.

I don't know everything.  I know a fair amount because of the combination of study and experience, but there is much more that I don't know.  The difference is that I've seen enough to be convinced of what I do know.

Don't leave, and please don't take these discussions as personal attacks.

There is comfort, but no growth, in only associating with people who totally agree with you.  There are those here who disagree with me.  I still consider them friends.

Let me start by saying that I still don't know if I will leave or not.

Now, I still think that what you said before was a personal bash toward me.  I will say that I know what you are saying about pastors just feeding people what they want to hear.  I think most all Christians know about this and have been there to.

I to know what it is like to hear what feels good, I am 24 and I was raised in a church that told people only what they wanted to hear.  Especially as the church grew.  Now I am in a church that is smaller, probably because like your pastor, he speaks the truth, he hits hard and doesn't pull any punches.  You are right, it hurts to hear things sometimes, but we need to hear them to learn things.  I will admit that I have heard, well read things, here that I haven't liked and now hopefully I will learn from them.

I do have to ask though.  Why do you need a pastor to tell you how to have a good family when you said before that the Bible has all the answers?  I realize that you can look for yourself and not find what you need and sometimes you need a pastor to explain things, but are you looking for yourself?

In my previous statements I never meant to say that I was taking spiritual advice from my roommate.  She has still helped me more than any other person I have known through the things I have had to deal with lately.  I called my Christian friends and tried to ask for advice, but one wouldn't return my calls, and the rest just didn't want to hear it or were to busy.  This has made me realize that Christians as a group, myself included, need to have more love for people.  This is why I disagree that the hurricane was God's response to an evil NO.  I have heard that Hurricane Rita is now a catagory 5 and is supposed to hit near where it did before.  Is God trying to finish what He started now?  If he really wanted to destroy NO and its people it would have been done the first time.

I admit I was looking at my roommates 'goodness' from a human perspective.  Something my roommate said the other day really got to me.  She said that she wasn't worth saving yet.  She said she hadn't done anything good enough to save.  It really surprised me.  I admit that I should have said something to explain Christianity more, but I didn't.  I am sure her comments come from her Mormon upbringing.

Thank you for being patient with me.  I admit that I have questioned a lot of the things I believe lately, though I have come to realize that most of them are true.

Quoted: I do have to ask though.  Why do you need a pastor to tell you how to have a good family when you said before that the Bible has all the answers?  I realize that you can look for yourself and not find what you need and sometimes you need a pastor to explain things, but are you looking for yourself?

My father, while being a basically good, decent man did not model the behavior required to be a Christian leader in the home.  We tend to learn how to run a family from watching our parents.  Thus, I had a steep learning curve ahead of me.

Most pastors (as you probably know) works more than what people see on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening.  Mine has individual counseling sessions from morning to eveing all week, and is on call 24/7 for every kind of crisis imagineable.

Yes, I read my Bible, but that does not negate the benefits from learning under a knowledgeable, experienced teacher.

Something my roommate said the other day really got to me.  She said that she wasn't worth saving yet.  She said she hadn't done anything good enough to save.

We grow up in a system of punishment and reward based on our behavior.  Thus, we carry the resulting attitudes over into our relationship with God.  Here are a couple concepts I want you to ponder:

1.  None of us are "worth saving."  What I mean is that our sin nature puts us in a position where none of us can be good enough to earn God's favor.

2.  That's OK, though, because God knew we couldn't meet His standards, so He sent Jesus to take our penalty upon Himself.

3.  That's grace: unmerited favor.  We don't deserve it and can't earn it, but God, in His magnificent love, chooses to give it to us.  

4.  God's love is unconditional, but His grace does have a condition.  One must receive it, as a gift, by faith in Jesus.  If I offer a person a gift but they refuse to receive it, they can't enjoy the benefits of it.

The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Think about those two key words.  Wages are earned; they are deserved according to the actions of the person.  Gifts are free.  They are not earned (if it was owed to you, it's not a gift).

This is the wonder of God's grace.  While we were sinners and underserving of His favor, He made a way where we were helpless, motivated by His love and desire to have a relationship with us.

I hope we're understanding eachother better now.

Before I accepted God's gift I was living a lifestyle characterized by sinful behavior.  Now, sure, I sin here and there, but it's not the core of my lifestyle.  When I went to my 20th high school reunion a former classmate commented, "Man, you sure changed!"  I said, "Yep.  The guy you knew back then doesn't exist anymore."

I'm not yet what I will be, but I thank God I'm no longer what I was.

God loves us enough to accept us as we are, but He loves us too much to leave us in that condition.

Quoted:  Something my roommate said the other day really got to me.  She said that she wasn't worth saving yet.  She said she hadn't done anything good enough to save.

Neither am I - but Jesus is good enough to save a wretch like me.

I imagine your friend is no worse than me.

Be sure she understands that.

Quoted: If God wanted to take out N.O. he could have used some sort of "tactical flood" and spared all those in AL and MS. My God isn't like a gang banger, hanging out the window of an 88' oldsmobile, spraying bullets into crowds of innocents.  He's like a well trained sniper.  When he wants to smite something he doesn't have to wipe out three states to do it.

Well said MAX  remember come Nineth come Tyre?  Even before Sod&Gom the lord sent angels to the city seeking people that were ready to repent and leave the city!

The people of NO had from Aug 3 to know a storm out of Africa was heading there way!!!

Even though the Gov and Mayor had such warnings,they even disreguarded the Presidents warning to evacuate!!!

So were the people of Nineth and Tyre and Sod&Gom,and NO warned!!!

They just payed it no heed!!!!


Bob

People are naturally more comfortable with a god who doesn't judge them.