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Posted: 8/15/2005 9:50:47 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Did it ever occur to anyone that if there was a devil he would have to be a whole lot smarter than he is usually portrayed to be?

Let's take that fire and brimstone stuff. Who would want to sign up for that? He is going to have one hell of a time getting recruits with that stuff.

Seems to me that -- if he was really there -- he would be more into nudie bars, lap dances, and more poontang than you could handle for all of eternity. (Lord knows you wouldn't get that stuff in Christian Heaven.)

Now, if the devil has fire and brimstone, and in heaven you sit around in church all day singing, and aren't even able to grope the hot babe beside you -- then who provides all the stuff that would really make an afterlife worthwhile?

*sigh*

Satan isn't in hell.

Satan is, at present, occupied with being the ruler of this world that we live in.

he's hard at work here - reading through this very thread reveals some of his work.

Satan isn't interested in hell, fire, brimstone, or none of that silliness.

Satan isn't even against religion. Satan isn't against 'good' works, or charity.

Satan's downfall......is that he desires to be worshipped, just like God.

The problem is that God created Satan - so he has no right to be worshipped, as he is a mere creation. Only the Creator deserves worship.

This was his downfall - he wanted to be worshipped for his beauty.

Satan IS quite beautiful....and this was his downfall.

Satan isn't trying to get people into hell.

Satan is trying to get people to worship him.

Those who do so, rarely (VERY rarely) even realize what they're doing.

But to do so - to worship satan, by failing to believe in Jesus - will earn you (by your choice, not God's) an eternity in hell.

Of course, you don't have to believe any of that.

God loves us enough to give us the free will to choose NOT to spend an eternity with Him.

It's your call.

Uuuuuh, yeaaaah. I will match that up with all the other explanations I have heard. Nope, doesn't really match. So who am I supposed to believe, you or the guy screaming about Satan on the downtown street corner? He claims he knows more about it than you do.

BTW, isn't a belief in demons like this a generally accepted sign of insanity? It seems to me that there was some question about it on those mental health tests I took before I went into the Army.

Posted: 8/15/2005 9:52:02 AM EDT

[#2]

yes, the devil exists.

And if you want proof just look at society as a whole. The down fall began a long time ago, and IMO ain't going to stop any time soon.

Posted: 8/15/2005 9:53:56 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Read Revelations it is quite clear, no returning to heave for that former angel.
Remember he was the highest of the Arch Angles, the most beautiful thing in creation his beauty and importance (vanity) is what caused him to rebel against God and desire to set himself up as ruler over all the exists.
There are only 3 angels referenced by name in the Bible. Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer.

And again, you don't suppose that an omnipotent God would have predicted, or more likely
actually planned on, this all occuring? I still think it's a bit blasphemous to think that Lucifer
really had any choice in the matter at all. Lucifer is doing what he is told to do, what God
ordained that he should do.

An omnipotent God who knows the end from the beginning is certainly capable of using any evil intentions or actions by anyone (including Angels) to suit His purposes, but that doesn't equate to Lucifer following orders.

Remember that God decreed death for Ahab, but still warned Ahab to give him the choice, which Ahab foolishly ignored.

Posted: 8/15/2005 9:54:28 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

BTW, isn't a belief in demons like this a generally accepted sign of insanity? It seems to me that there was some question about it on those mental health tests I took before I went into the Army.

So 150 million people in the USA are insane?

Since they are christians and believe in God and the Devil?

Is that what you are saying?

ANd did the Army training you to be a mental healthy professional?

Sgat1r5

Posted: 8/15/2005 9:55:13 AM EDT

[#5]

In a word... no. Of course, I'm agnostic.

Posted: 8/15/2005 9:55:24 AM EDT

[#6]

If you play the theme song to Mr. Roger's Neighborhood backwards, you will know everything you've ever wanted to about the Devil's existance on Earth.

Or...

Watch the 2004 Democratic Convention.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm headed to the Religion forum to ask whether or not the 223 cartridge is suitable for hunting deer.

Posted: 8/15/2005 9:58:42 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Uuuuuh, yeaaaah. I will match that up with all the other explanations I have heard. Nope, doesn't really match. So who am I supposed to believe, you or the guy screaming about Satan on the downtown street corner?

You should compare both explainations to the Bible, the only Book that has anything to say about Lucifer.

Of course, you won't. But if you did, you would find that Arowneragain is right on target and correct.

Posted: 8/15/2005 9:58:59 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Read Revelations it is quite clear, no returning to heave for that former angel.
Remember he was the highest of the Arch Angles, the most beautiful thing in creation his beauty and importance (vanity) is what caused him to rebel against God and desire to set himself up as ruler over all the exists.
There are only 3 angels referenced by name in the Bible. Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer.

And again, you don't suppose that an omnipotent God would have predicted, or more likely
actually planned on, this all occuring? I still think it's a bit blasphemous to think that Lucifer
really had any choice in the matter at all. Lucifer is doing what he is told to do, what God
ordained that he should do.

An omnipotent God who knows the end from the beginning is certainly capable of using any evil intentions or actions by anyone (including Angels) to suit His purposes, but that doesn't equate to Lucifer following orders.

Remember that God decreed death for Ahab, but still warned Ahab to give him the choice, which Ahab foolishly ignored.

Yeah, but sarge posted this in GD, things don't have to make as much sense in here

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:01:21 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:

BTW, isn't a belief in demons like this a generally accepted sign of insanity? It seems to me that there was some question about it on those mental health tests I took before I went into the Army.

So 150 million people in the USA are insane?

Since they are christians and believe in God and the Devil?

Is that what you are saying?

ANd did the Army training you to be a mental healthy professional?

Sgat1r5

Wellllll, let's not say "insane". Let's just say "out of touch with reality".

And, yeah, I am not sure what the last question is, but the Army did it.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:04:51 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Uuuuuh, yeaaaah. I will match that up with all the other explanations I have heard. Nope, doesn't really match. So who am I supposed to believe, you or the guy screaming about Satan on the downtown street corner?

You should compare both explainations to the Bible, the only Book that has anything to say about Lucifer.

Of course, you won't. But if you did, you would find that Arowneragain is right on target and correct.

I did, actually, and I did some reading on the history of the idea in other places, too. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

But, of course, every time I run into someone who tells me something like you just did, it turns out they have different ideas about the thing than the last person who made the claim. In fact, there seem to be all kinds of different "Christian" religions that can't seem to get it together themselves on what the Bible says. Lots of them will tell you that everyone else is going to hell because they don't believe in their particular version of what they think the Bible says.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:11:30 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Of course, how else could we get deviled ham?

[JessicaSimpson] Is that the devil, or is it ham? [/JessicaSimpson]

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:15:15 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Wellllll, let's not say "insane". Let's just say "out of touch with reality".

And, yeah, I am not sure what the last question is, but the Army did it.

So we will add that to the list of stuff I am based on my Christian faith. Taken from actual ARFCOM user posts:

Stupid
Ignorant
Irrational
Duped
Rediculous
Moronic

And now:

Out of touch with reality

Thanks, ARFCOM!

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:26:38 AM EDT

[#13]

God's word or the Bible is like looking through a multi-faceted prism, it is a growing living word, it grows as you grow in your walk with Christ, it meets you wherever you are at in your walk. I have read the passages of the Bible at different stages of my life and each time I come away with a different revelation that never fails to meet my need at that certain point in my life.
Unfortunately many church goers, yes not everyone whom goes to church is a christian, come away with differing ideas that become to them as the Gospel with no room for growth.
This leads to much confusion and many rely upon the many differing church doctrines for their interpretation of the word of God.
Not all christians believe in the devil.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:28:47 AM EDT

[#14]

Better yet... let's ask the Ouija board!

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:28:53 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Not all christians believe in the devil.

Jesus sure seems to have believed in the devil....Even went so far as to refer to him by name!

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:30:19 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
God's word or the Bible is like looking through a multi-faceted prism, it is a growing living word, it grows as you grow in your walk with Christ, it meets you wherever you are at in your walk. I have read the passages of the Bible at different stages of my life and each time I come away with a different revelation that never fails to meet my need at that certain point in my life.
Unfortunately many church goers, yes not everyone whom goes to church is a christian, come away with differing ideas that become to them as the Gospel with no room for growth.
This leads to much confusion and many rely upon the many differing church doctrines for their interpretation of the word of God.
Not all christians believe in the devil.

In other words, it means whatever you would like it to mean.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:35:13 AM EDT

[#17]

He does indeed exist. He's mentioned in scripture many times and I don't think God would lie to us.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:42:29 AM EDT

[#18]

You say that like being out of touch with reality is a bad thing.
A lot depends on who's reality you base your faith.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:44:26 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Wellllll, let's not say "insane". Let's just say "out of touch with reality".

And, yeah, I am not sure what the last question is, but the Army did it.

So we will add that to the list of stuff I am based on my Christian faith. Taken from actual ARFCOM user posts:

Stupid
Ignorant
Irrational
Duped
Rediculous
Moronic

And now:

Out of touch with reality

Thanks, ARFCOM!

Yeah, don't forget intolerant and arrogant...

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:46:37 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Yeah, don't forget intolerant and arrogant...

Yup. Forgot those.

To be honest, I have forgotten a lot of them.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:56:25 AM EDT

[#21]

No not what you would like it to mean, what the spirit of God reveals to you at the time when you read it.
There is no doubt Jesus believes in the devil, however you would be suprised how many church goers and some christians do not. In a recent poll by one of the leading christian magazines something like 35% of the people who professed to be christian did not believe in the devil. In that alone, it shows the devil is doing his job.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:57:25 AM EDT

[#22]

My main problem with religion is if God really wanted us to believe in him, it would be a snap. All he has to do is show up. Nothing too taxing. Just a big glowing image of a dude with a long beard flashing in the sky with an accompanying booming voice that says, "Yes, dammit! I do exist! And I want you to worship me according to the beliefs of <insert religion here>, and try to make me happy or I'll send you to Hell!"

That would get me into church.

But as long as there is no evidence that he exists or has any interest in us whatsoever, I will continue under the assumption that God was created by man in his own image and likeness. I may be wrong, but I have seen nothing that leads me to believe I am wrong. As soon as I see something that fundamentally conflicts with my existing views, I will be glad to alter them. I have an open mind, but I also require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.

Posted: 8/15/2005 10:59:13 AM EDT

[#23]

After seeing some of the pictures and videos circulating the internet, I'm absolutely convinced that the Devil walks among us...

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:00:01 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Yeah, don't forget intolerant and arrogant...

I think that comes from the Christians themselves when they insist on the idea that their reading of the Bible is the one, true correct reading and everyone else is going to hell in a handbasket because they don't believe the same. Lots of them do demonstrate intolerance and arrogance. And that has been true since at least the time of the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. Hell, Catholics and Protestants can't even get it together on what the Bible says.

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:05:00 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Hell, Catholics and Protestants can't even get it together on what the Bible says.

Au contraire, mon frère...

Catholics and Protestants know precisely what the Bible says, they simply cannot get together on what it means.

And therein lies the History of Europe for the past 500 years.

BTW, of course, the Devil exists.

The Bible says so.

Eric The(Eternal)Hun

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:06:41 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
If you play the theme song to Mr. Roger's Neighborhood backwards, you will know everything you've ever wanted to about the Devil's existance on Earth.

Or...

Watch the 2004 Democratic Convention.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm headed to the Religion forum to ask whether or not the 223 cartridge is suitable for hunting deer.

best answer yet

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:12:25 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Wellllll, let's not say "insane". Let's just say "out of touch with reality".

And, yeah, I am not sure what the last question is, but the Army did it.

So we will add that to the list of stuff I am based on my Christian faith. Taken from actual ARFCOM user posts:

Stupid
Ignorant
Irrational
Duped
Rediculous
Moronic

And now:

Out of touch with reality

Thanks, ARFCOM!

I'm right there with you, buddy!

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:13:19 AM EDT

[#28]

Admiral Crunch,
Faith pleases God, without faith it is impossible to plea God, how much faith would it take to believe if God showed up as you described?
Besides it is faith in his son Jesus whom died on the cross for your sins, that matters, for he who believes in the Son believes in the Father, and he who has seen the Son, has seen the Father.

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:22:50 AM EDT

[#29]

Of course Satan exists. He was shacked up with Saddam for awhile.

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:43:26 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

......
The problem is that God created Satan -......

Guess God is not perfect after all.
Why creates Satan?
Why creates a world where his children killing each other every single day?
Why giving his children the ability to think/analyze/understand right from wrong, good from bad, logic from illogic, fact from non-fact, 'seeing is believing'....but expect his children just have faith? And "penalize" his children when they're not have faith in him.

BTW, sure....devil and his minions exist...

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:43:49 AM EDT

[#31]

The Devil doesn't want you to believe in him. It makes it easier for him to fool/manipulate/trap you if your guard is down.

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:43:51 AM EDT

[#32]

absolutley does

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:48:32 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

......
The problem is that God created Satan -......

Guess God is not perfect after all.

Why not? Satan fell due to pride. God knew this would happen. How does the fact that He allowed it to happen make Him imperfect?

Why creates Satan?

My understanding is that God created everything for His pleasure.

Why creates a world where his children killing each other every single day?

Again, for His pleasure.

Why giving his children the ability to think/analyze/understand right from wrong, good from bad, logic from illogic, fact from non-fact, 'seeing is believing'....but expect his children just have faith?

Those who demand proof......wouldn't believe even if proof were offered.

(Hint: the Jews had proof that Jesus was the Son of God......did they believe? Nope.)

And "penalize" his children when they're not have faith in him.

Penalize?

God doesn't send people to Hell - they send themselves. He offers everyone the same choice - spend eternity with Him, or without Him. It would be cruel and unloving to force Himself upon us - so if we reject Him, He loves us enough to allow us to do so.

BTW, sure....devil and his minions exist...

On this we are in agreement.

Posted: 8/15/2005 11:50:46 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

......
The problem is that God created Satan -......

Guess God is not perfect after all.

Wrong again.

He is Perfect in all His Ways.

Why creates Satan?

God did.

And He gave Satan free will, to choose if he would obey God or rebel.

Satan rebelled.

Why creates a world where his children killing each other every single day?

While the earth is full of humans, only a fraction are "His children".

Humans have free will to choose to obey God or obey their own will. Most choose the latter.

Why giving his children the ability to think/analyze/understand right from wrong, good from bad, logic from illogic, fact from non-fact, 'seeing is believing'....but expect his children just have faith? And "penalize" his children when they're not have faith in him.

Once again, you are mis-identifying most humans as "His childern" when, in fact, they are not. This fact is clearly taught in the Bible.

He does indeed require faith. But as to "why" He has deteremined to do that, I cannot say.

He is the Creator, not me. He makes only just and good decisions. He makes no mistakes.

Posted: 8/15/2005 12:18:13 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:

......
The problem is that God created Satan -......

Guess God is not perfect after all.

Why not? Satan fell due to pride. God knew this would happen. How does the fact that He allowed it to happen make Him imperfect?
arowneragain. Then God should shut Satan down like a rag doll, instead of allowing the dude to walk on Earth.

Why creates Satan?

My understanding is that God created everything for His pleasure.
Why creates such headache and let his children decide?

Why creates a world where his children killing each other every single day?

Again, for His pleasure.
People are dying, dead, hunger, desease,....In other words, his children suffer...Can't be for His pleasure.

Why giving his children the ability to think/analyze/understand right from wrong, good from bad, logic from illogic, fact from non-fact, 'seeing is believing'....but expect his children just have faith?

Those who demand proof......wouldn't believe even if proof were offered.

(Hint: the Jews had proof that Jesus was the Son of God......did they believe? Nope.)
Well. Just because some of the Jew didn't believe it....doesn't mean other won't believe it. So God just gives up, right?

And "penalize" his children when they're not have faith in him.

Penalize?

God doesn't send people to Hell - they send themselves. He offers everyone the same choice - spend eternity with Him, or without Him. It would be cruel and unloving to force Himself upon us - so if we reject Him, He loves us enough to allow us to do so.
But people won't not believe if they can't see with their own eyes. Some people believe in faith, some don't...

BTW, sure....devil and his minions exist...

On this we are in agreement.
Ditto.

Posted: 8/15/2005 12:23:09 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Yes, I send her two checks a month.

sizzling comeback

Posted: 8/15/2005 12:33:21 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:

......
The problem is that God created Satan -......

Guess God is not perfect after all.

Wrong again.

He is Perfect in all His Ways.

Why creates Satan?

God did.

And He gave Satan free will, to choose if he would obey God or rebel.

Satan rebelled.
So why not destroy Satan, since God creates Satan?

Why creates a world where his children killing each other every single day?

While the earth is full of humans, only a fraction are "His children".

Humans have free will to choose to obey God or obey their own will. Most choose the latter.
God creates all things...that include ALL human beings...but only a fraction are 'His children'?

Why giving his children the ability to think/analyze/understand right from wrong, good from bad, logic from illogic, fact from non-fact, 'seeing is believing'....but expect his children just have faith? And "penalize" his children when they're not have faith in him.

Once again, you are mis-identifying most humans as "His childern" when, in fact, they are not. This fact is clearly taught in the Bible.

OP. If God is THE creator or all things, including human beings....then human beings ARE His children.

He does indeed require faith. But as to "why" He has deteremined to do that, I cannot say.

He is the Creator, not me. He makes only just and good decisions. He makes no mistakes.

Posted: 8/15/2005 12:50:35 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Not all christians believe in the devil.

Then they aren't Christains IMHO. Because Christains ues the Bible as a referance and the devil is CLEARLY definited iin the Bible.

Sgat1r5

Posted: 8/15/2005 12:52:15 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Catholics and Protestants know precisely what the Bible says, they simply cannot get together on what it means.

Eric The(Eternal)Hun

EGGS ACT L:Y! And like you have said many times before, anythink worthwhile is worth argueing over.

Sgat1r5

Posted: 8/15/2005 12:52:26 PM EDT

[#40]

God allows Satan to exist because there is opposition in all things and God understands the wisdom of this.

Satan, in his perverse attempts to fight against God, is actually serving a purpose in God's plan.

God doesn't make Satan do anything. God didn't want Satan to rebel either. Rebellion was Satan's choice.

Posted: 8/15/2005 12:54:27 PM EDT

[#41]

666 \m/

Posted: 8/15/2005 1:10:33 PM EDT

[#42]

i have a question that i have never really heard an answer for.

God created satan. Satan SERVED God for a period of time and due to his pride he rebelled and attempted to overthrough God. Obviously at one point satan was good. Why, just because he rebelled does he do a MAJOR philosphical shift and become pure evil? Hopefully this question makes sense. Obviously i am looking at this from a human perspective <the only one i have>. Rebellion is not always considered a bad thing in our terms. Where/how did he become consumed with absolute evil?

perhaps this has been addressed and just never explained to me. I NEVER claimed to be even close to a great understanding of theology.

Posted: 8/15/2005 1:11:08 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
God allows Satan to exist because there is opposition in all things and God understands the wisdom of this.

Satan, in his perverse attempts to fight against God, is actually serving a purpose in God's plan.

God doesn't make Satan do anything. God didn't want Satan to rebel either. Rebellion was Satan's choice.

God understands the wisdom of luring people into sin and condemning them to Hell?

If God made everything, then he either knew for certain that Satan would rebel (His fault) or he commanded him to do it.

Posted: 8/15/2005 1:12:34 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
God allows Satan to exist because there is opposition in all things and God understands the wisdom of this.

Satan, in his perverse attempts to fight against God, is actually serving a purpose in God's plan.

God doesn't make Satan do anything. God didn't want Satan to rebel either. Rebellion was Satan's choice.

OK, Shane333. So you know "this killer" who happens to be your children's friend/acquaintance. You leave "the killer" alone? Not me.

Posted: 8/15/2005 1:16:24 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Catholics and Protestants know precisely what the Bible says, they simply cannot get together on what it means.

Eric The(Eternal)Hun

I thought that was because it's been translated and rewritten hundreds of thousands of times. The bible probably made a lot more sense when it was actually first written.

Posted: 8/15/2005 1:19:51 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Catholics and Protestants know precisely what the Bible says, they simply cannot get together on what it means.

Eric The(Eternal)Hun

I thought that was because it's been translated and rewritten hundreds of thousands of times. The bible probably made a lot more sense when it was actually first written.

I believe a lot is missing, take the dead sea scrolls as an example.

Posted: 8/15/2005 1:21:03 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
i have a question that i have never really heard an answer for.

God created satan. Satan SERVED God for a period of time and due to his pride he rebelled and attempted to overthrough God. Obviously at one point satan was good. Why, just because he rebelled does he do a MAJOR philosphical shift and become pure evil? Hopefully this question makes sense. Obviously i am looking at this from a human perspective <the only one i have>. Rebellion is not always considered a bad thing in our terms. Where/how did he become consumed with absolute evil?

perhaps this has been addressed and just never explained to me. I NEVER claimed to be even close to a great understanding of theology.

My understanding is the satan had as much knowledge as God. I don't know if God gave this knowledge freely or not.

But once satan got that knowledge he then wanted to run everything his way, while God wanted it another way.

Since they couldn't agree they went there seperate ways and man has been fucked ever since.

At least until Jesus showed up..

Sgat1r5