if people who became Christians were genuine, they would WANT to be baptised, and soon, and by full immersion (sprinkling is not baptism - words have meaning, whether anyone likes it or not, and baptism does not mean 'sprinkled'), and...................



None of this thread would be necessary.

I just knew this was gonna' come up at some time from a person of faithist persuasion:
_______________________________________________________________________________
But I don't think Jesus' follow up from John 3:3 about being born of water and of spirit refers to water baptism, I think he is saying unless you are physically born (of water) and spiritually born (of the spirit), you cannot see the kingdom of God.
_______________________________________________________________________________

That is one of the most I dont know what theorizations I have ever heard proposed to comment on Christs statement.

How far will people go to avoid being baptized?? Or to ignore its significance??

Lets examine the statement by MRW above:

So, you are saying you have to be born, you know the whole gestation and fetus thing "born" to be able to be saved. That water is the amniotic fluid Christ is talking about that surrounds the fetus.

Um ... so you are saying you must be born before you can be saved. As though there were another option open to ANYBODY!!! Like what? Spermatozoa being proselytized ?? Or and embryo??

Why is it possible in some minds to deny that Nicodemus did not understand the second birth and Christ was telling him whereby he could be reborn. Not through re-entering the womb but through the burial with Christ in Baptism.

Wherever you find salvation mentioned in the Bible with baptism you will find baptism immediately follows FAITH.

Faith is ALWAYS FIRST, when you believe you get baptized to claim you regenerational rebirth.

Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col:2:12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

I consistently fail to understand why baptism is rejected outright when it was clearly preached!

What does the Word say?

Eph:4:5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

M'r:16:15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


There is ONLY one baptism in the New Testament and it is comprised of the water burial that we physically supply to comply with Christs request and the spiritual baptism that DOES THE WORK. Christ supplies the actual "WORK" here, we are merely complying with the simple act of water burial.

Believe

Baptized

Saved

How is it possible to go wrong and say it is not so?

The evidence of Faith and Gods grace is without fault and well reasoned...JUST DONT STOP BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE END!!!

By getting so wrapped around the axle and fixating on FAITH you decide to skip the finishing step that Christ demands. Be reborn! It cannot happen any other way... Christ said it multiple times.

The New Testament is a whole and not just what you wish it could be, I have had Baptist preachers flat out say "if that is what the Book of Acts means... then you can throw it out".

So, personally, I just dont get accepting part and rejecting the rest as ?what?

Dram out

TN, and Dram.  I guess you win, since the Word in context and agreement with itself doesn't seem to be enough.  I can stand on nothing else, sorry.

No.. there is no "winning".


This is about studying the Word to establish what it says and to DO IT.


I dont win ANYTHING.

If this discussion does ANYTHING it is to force people to proofread that which they claim as a belief system.

You must be fully assured that what you are doing is correct as it is NOT POSSIBLE to get a replay of a life lived under a misapprehension, or a mistaken creed.

Christ warns us that on that last and awful day of judgement that there will be those who CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIANS AND TO HAVE DONE GREAT WORKS IN HIS NAME but will be cast out by this same  Saviour.

M't:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


We are to worship in Spirit and in Truth: so you better, for your own sake, be satisfied within yourself that the Truth is what you hold fast to.

Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


You all, myself especially, must make doubly sure that you debate in Truth that comes from the word.

Dram out

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.  The Word is Truth, and is in agreement with itself.  I am satisfied that my position is in total agreement with Scripture.  I posted 30 references (an incomplete list) to the Word on the subject that would disagree with your supposition.  Since these verses evidently don't matter, or aren't important enough for you to even address, it then becomes difficult to debate the point of doctrine, doesn't it?

I recently read a pithy comment at CARM.org;  "It isn't faith AND works that save, but faith that WORKS". Dram, what it comes down to is that your idea is belief in a gospel of works, which I reject.

Romans 1:15-16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians 2:2-5
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.  For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Galatians 1:6-12
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Titus 3:4-11
But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,  which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.  Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men: but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies, and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  A factious man after a first and second admonition refuse;  knowing that such a one is perverted, and sinneth, being self-condemned.

NOW I'm done.

Funny is what I call this. Funny odd, not ha ha.

I agree with ALL your postings about FAITH as it is the bedrock of Christianity that you have FAITH in Christ Jesus.

I am in total agreement that it is the GRACE dispensed by Christ Jesus that will see us through the doors of HEAVEN.  

Yet you WILL NOT ACCEPT the rest of the scripture that tells us to be laboring for Christ to show that we are good and worthy servants.

It is not that we have some sort of point system going here that Christ is keeping track of, allowing some to pass and some to fail.

Jas:2:20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas:2:26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


You cannot have a dead faith. You must be about the Lords work by being a good steward of the gifts he has GIVEN TO YOU and using them to further His cause.

Trees that bear no fruit are CUT DOWN.

How is that NOT UNDERSTANDABLE.

The Word is replete with examples of Christians as plant life sprouting from seeds. He is clearly telling us that plants that grow and bear NO FRUIT are cut down.

If I tell you clearly  to go work in my Vineyard to receive A WAGE at the end of the week and that you will without fail put rich fertilizer on all plants and surely be guaranteed your wages. And yet later on the same day tell you that you surely will be guaranteed your pay if you without fail water the grape vines. And on yet another occasion tell you to do both without fail to assuredly receive your wages. What will the result be? Both get done, one gets done, or none gets done?

Which will you then do? They are TWO distinct and separate operations. I told you to individually do both in order to be paid. I did not tell you to NOT do one or the other. I told you individually to do both of these things to be assured of receiving your wages.

WILL YOU DO ONE AND NOT THE OTHER? I did tell you to do both, individually, in order that you be paid without fail. Does ONE cancel out the OTHER? Are they mutually exclusive?

I clearly said to fertilize the plants and you will be paid. I clearly said to water the plants and you will receive your pay. THEY ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE, and a worker would KNOW BOTH must be done to receive pay when he guaranteed pay specifically for each labor.

It is SIMPLE logic for SIMPLE people. I am one of those simple ones who can clearly understand a clearly presented idea. Baptism is simply presented and clearly defined. Faith comes First and then rebirth. Baptism isnt a physical "work", it is providing a vehicle that Christ demands to allow rebirth into a new creature in Christ Jesus. Dying like Him, to rise up like Him.

Ac:9:5: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

You can discuss this with Jesus the Writer about why He said to baptize numerous times, yet you think it is NOT REALLY NECESSARY. I refuse to NOT DO that very thing He specifies, and yet you are reluctant. I have no idea why this is so, clinging to the first part of the Plan and rejecting the follow up.

Ac:22:16: And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Black and white. Christ is washing us in baptism to remove sins. Not ME. HIM!!!

But, believe as you will.... tell Him it did not make sense. That the above scripture was CANCELLED OUT by Grace and Faith. You dont need to wash away your sins or be born anew, you have Christs Grace and your unyielding Faith to rely on. Must be typos in the original Aramaic or in the Greek texts. Those darn scribes needed glasses.

Yep "arise and be baptized" means to get up and be born from your mother. Get up and go tell your mom you want to be born. Ummm... hmmm... that dont work it seems.

The Ethiopian Eunuch was of a pool on the side of the road? That was his mother?!

Ac:8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

The Eunuch knew that as a BELIEVER that as the night follows the day, surely HE MUST BE BAPTIZED. If it was NOT, why stop and do it? He was a high ranking man, a pool on the side of the road was NOT the place to stop... you would get your feet muddy.

He did it because he KNEW IT MUST BE DONE.



_____________________________________________________________________________

Now, about "so called works", the following:

I can never EARN my way to heaven. But I know if I am an uprofitable servant the following will be my lot... read and learn if you will:

M't:25:14: For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
M't:25:15: And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
M't:25:16: Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
M't:25:17: And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
M't:25:18: But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
M't:25:19: After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
M't:25:20: And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
M't:25:21: His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
M't:25:22: He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
M't:25:23: His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
M't:25:24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
M't:25:25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
M't:25:26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
M't:25:27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
M't:25:28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
M't:25:29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
M't:25:30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So will you tell me that Christ was confused when He gave this parable? God forbid. He told us that which shall be, servants who are of no profit will be cast out for a surety.

He expects labor in the fields of those who have come to his call. And this here applies to ALL WHO HEAR HIS CALL, especially ME a truly lowly servant. A rickety cot in the furnace room in Heaven is more than I will ever deserve or rate. But that is not the point here, you cant earn your way in but you had better be doing SOMETHING for Jesus lest you be cast into the outer darkness.

Dram out

John 3:3.

'Nuff said.

Quoted: He expects labor in the fields of those who have come to his call. And this here applies to ALL WHO HEAR HIS CALL, especially ME a truly lowly servant. A rickety cot in the furnace room in Heaven is more than I will ever deserve or rate. But that is not the point here, you cant earn your way in but you had better be doing SOMETHING for Jesus lest you be cast into the outer darkness. Dram out

So What did the thief that hung on the cross beside Jesus do to earn his salvation.??

Thief on the cross:

Here we go.

Legion are those who dismiss water baptism as prerequisite to salvation on the grounds that “the thief on the cross was not baptized.” The thought is that since the thief was suspended on the cross when Jesus said to him, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), he was being pronounced as saved by Christ without being required to be baptized. As one well-known preacher put it, “There was no water within 10 miles of the cross.” Please give consideration to two important observations.

First, the thief may well have been baptized prior to being placed on the cross. Considerable scriptural evidence points to this conclusion (Matthew 3:5-6; Mark 1:4-5; Luke 3:21; 7:29-30). If he was, in fact, baptized, he would have been baptized with the baptism administered by John the baptizer. John’s baptism was temporary (i.e., in force only during his personal ministry, terminating at the death of Christ). However, even John’s baptism was “for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:4) and, hence, essential for salvation for those to whom it was addressed. John’s baptism, like the one administered by Jesus while He was on Earth (John 3:22,26; 4:1-2), was unique and temporary. It was addressed only to Jews, and only to the Jews who populated the vicinity of Jerusalem and Judea. It was designed to prepare the Jewish people for the arrival of the Messiah. But John’s baptism must not be confused with New Testament baptism that is addressed to everybody, and that did not take effect until after the cross of Christ. If the thief was a Jew, and if he already had submitted to John’s baptism, there would have been no need for him to be re-baptized. He simply would have needed to repent of his post-baptism thievery and acknowledge his sins—which the text plainly indicates that he did.

Second, and most important, the real issue pertains to an extremely crucial feature of Bible interpretation. This hermeneutical feature is so critical that, if a person does not grasp it, his effort to sort out Bible teaching, in order to arrive at correct conclusions, will be inevitably hampered. This principle was spotlighted by Paul when he wrote to Timothy and told him he must “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). In other words, if one simply takes the entire Bible—all 66 books—and treats them as if everything that is said applies directly and equally to everyone, his effort to be in harmony with God’s Word will be hopeless and futile. For example, if a person turned to Genesis 6 and read where God instructed Noah to build a boat, if he did not study enough to determine whether such instruction applied to himself, he would end up building his own boat—the entire time thinking that God wanted him to do so! The Bible is literally filled with commands, instructions, and requirements that were not intended to be duplicated by people living today. Does God forbid you and me from eating a certain fruit (Genesis 2:17; 3:3)? Are we to refrain from boiling a baby goat in its mother’s milk (Exodus 23:19)? Does God want you and me to offer our son as a burnt offering (Genesis 22:2)? Are we commanded to load up and leave our homeland (Genesis 12:1)? Moving to the New Testament, does God want you to sell everything you have and give it to the poor (Matthew 19:21)? Does God expect you to leave everything, quit your job, and devote yourself full time to spiritual pursuits (Matthew 4:20; 19:27; Mark 10:28; Luke 5:28)? Does God intend for you to “desire spiritual gifts” (1 Corinthians 14:1), i.e., seek to possess miraculous abilities? The point is that the entire Bible applies to the entire human race. However, careful and diligent study is necessary to determine how it applies. We must understand the biblical distinction between the application of the principles of the Bible and the specific details.

Here, then, is the central point as it pertains to the relevance of the thief on the cross: Beginning at Creation, all humans were amenable to the laws of God that were given to them at that time. Bible students typically call this period of time the Patriarchal Dispensation. During this period, which lasted from Creation to roughly the time of the cross, non-Jews were subject to a body of legislation passed down by God through the fathers of family clans (cf. Hebrews 11:1). In approximately 1,500 B.C., God removed the genetic descendants of Abraham from Egyptian bondage, took them out into the Sinai desert, and gave them their own law code (the Law of Moses). Jews were subject to that body of legal information from that time until it, too, was terminated at the cross of Christ. The following passages substantiate these assertions: Matthew 27:51; Romans 2:12-16; Galatians 3:7-29; Ephesians 2:11-22; Colossians 2:11-17. The book of Hebrews addresses this subject extensively. To get to the heart of the matter quickly, read especially Hebrews 9:15-17. When one “correctly handles the Word of truth,” one sees that the Bible teaches that when Christ died on the cross, Mosaic law came to an end, and patriarchal law shortly thereafter. At that point, all humans on the planet became amenable to the law of Christ (cf. Galatians 6:2). The law of Christ consists strictly of information that is intended to be in effect after the death of Christ. It includes some of the things that Jesus and His disciples taught while He was still on Earth. But as regards the specifics of salvation, one must go to Acts 2 and the rest of the New Testament (especially the book of Acts) in order to determine what one must do today to be saved. Beginning in Acts 2, the new covenant of Christ took effect, and every single individual who responded correctly to the preaching of the gospel was baptized in water in order to be forgiven of sin by the blood of Christ. Every detail of an individual’s conversion is not always mentioned, but a perusal of the book of Acts demonstrates decisively that water immersion was a prerequisite to forgiveness, along with faith, repentance, and confession of the deity of Christ (Acts 2:38,41; 8:12,13,16,36-38; 9:18; 10:47-48; 16:15,33; 18:8; 19:5; 22:16).

The thief was not subject to the New Testament command to be baptized into Christ’s death (Romans 6:3-4), just as Moses, Abraham, and David were not amenable to it. They all lived prior to the cross under different law codes. They could not have been baptized into Christ’s death—because He had not yet died! The establishment of the church of Christ and the launching of the Christian religion did not occur until after Christ’s death, on the day of Pentecost in the year A.D. 30 in the city of Jerusalem (Acts 2). An honest and accurate appraisal of the biblical data forces us to conclude that the thief on the cross is not an appropriate example of how people are to be saved this side of the cross.

Dave Miller
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Vicap posted the above in our thread on the Thief on the Cross on 11/21/03




Pretty darn good explanation.

Have at it.

Dram out

OK, since so many of you seem to think that you're already "born again" please, tell us all what the Kingdom of God looks like?  As the word says, once you're "born again" you'll be able to enter the Kingdom of God, right.  Read 1st Cor. chapter 15 again and this time really READ it for what it is telling you.  Right now you're flesh, not spirit and until you get an incoruptable body at the resurection you'll continue to be corruptible flesh and not be able to enter the Kingdom of God but once you get a spirit body at the resurection, once you're "born again" into an incorruptible body then and only then will you be able to enter the Kingdom of God.  I don't know why some of ya'll are making this so hard when it's really quite simple.  You accept Christ as saviour, get baptized and then, after you die and are resurected you get a spirit body and are born again into the Kingdom of God.  Geeze some people just won't give up the myth for the truth.  

The following is from ETH from our 11/03 debate on the Gen Disc board with a few members.

I quote him, as he is well worth quoting and listening to, hopefully he does not mind:






Now, let me cite you the prime example of a sory about Baptism from a pre-Chrisitan Church aspect, and one from which Jesus specifically mentioned!

The Story of Naaman the Syrian, who was a captain of the Host of Syria, and, who had leprosy.

The story is found in 2 Kings, Chapter 5:

8 And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.

9 So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha.

10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

It was in telling this very story that Jesus was threatened with physical violence by the People of Israel!

Here's how He explained it to the People of Israel:

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

Why was He telling the Story of the Widow Woman and Naaman the Syrian? Because both stories emphasized that OBEDIENCE TO GOD was what was necessary to receive God's Blessings.

SO IT IS WITH GRACE!

You MUST believe!

You MUST repent!

You MUST confess His Name!

You MUST be baptized.

Now, how is that any different than the Story of Naaman the Syrian?

He was told a very specific thing to do by Elisha the Prophet in order to receive cleansing.

'Dip yourself seven times in the Jordan River!'

We are told a very specific thing to do by Jesus the Savior:

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. John 3:5

Now, Naaman questioned the necessity of doing what the Prophet said the Lord commanded:

'Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean?'

Just as some of y'all are now saying, 'Well, it's only an outward act of an inner transformation, and Jesus really didn't mean to exalt form over substance, and really the only reason to do it is because it's a public act that identifies you with Christianity, and there's nothing special about it, and you can do it any old way you wish!'

Sounds just like the reasonings of Naaman the Syrian, doesn't it?

Had Naaman not following the Prophet's instructions to the 't', and had only dipped 6 times in the Jordan River, or maybe only a creek that was a tributary of the Jordan River, or saying about a river in Syria, 'We'll just call this 'the Jordan River' for now', and dip here, do you think he would have been healed?

Nope. Why?

Cause he didn't obey the Word of God.

Period.

Remember what Jesus said to those who thought that keeping the commandments was not a big deal?

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46.

And, again, see how He calls us to obedience:

[If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

Y'all do as your heart guided by the Holy Spirit tells you to do.

And, then tell me that you are keeping His Commandments!

Otherwise....


Dram out

Oh yah, Baptisim isn't just a NT deal. Jews had been "baptising" themselfs in Ritual Baths for centuries before they were allowed to go into the Temple.  John the Baptist just took it one step further by doing it in a river instead of a special place near the Temple.  History is our friend where anything is conserned.  Read up on a bit of it and you'll better understand the "why" of the "what" that's going on now.  

TNFRANK,

I am sorry sir, but I have been ignoring your posts, frankly not reading them at all. And since you are of the viking/heathen persuasion in regards to religion and by your words an apostate rejecter of Christ Jesus.

Why would you be interested in roiling the waters of a discussion that is not about the Evil One Eyed god of crows and the gibbet.????

Serve whom you will, but lets keep this thread to those whom it actually matters.


What do ya' say?

Dram out

Quoted: TNFRANK, Why would you be interested in roiling the waters of a discussion that is not about the Evil One Eyed god of crows and the gibbet.???? Dram out

Because if you're going to follow a frickin' religion you should at the very least get it right.   A very big part of my frustration with the "church" is all the mis-guided crap that they follow that has absolutly no basis in fact from the bible. I got so totally sick of it they for the sake of my own sanity I had no choice but to "drop back and punt" by going to my ancestorial root religion, Asatru.  
  If you simply can't or won't see that being "born again" occures at the resurection then you're just not reading what the bible says. I'll say it again, read 1st Cor. chapter 15, it goes right along with John chapter 3 perfectly and will help to explain what Jesus was trying to say about the whole "born again" deal.  
 Of course, once again, why should I care. I give up, once again. You won't see it, you've been brainwashed too deeply to every see the truth of your religion so follow the bible in your own twisted way and Have a Nice Day.

Quoted: TNFRANK, I am sorry sir, but I have been ignoring your posts, frankly not reading them at all. And since you are of the viking/heathen persuasion in regards to religion and by your words an apostate rejecter of Christ Jesus. Why would you be interested in roiling the waters of a discussion that is not about the Evil One Eyed god of crows and the gibbet.???? Serve whom you will, but lets keep this thread to those whom it actually matters. What do ya' say? Dram out

+1

Gee, can ya'll just Feel the Christian Love in the room here today.

Quoted: Thief on the cross: Here we go. Legion are those who dismiss water baptism as prerequisite to salvation on the grounds that “the thief on the cross was not baptized.” The thought is that since the thief was suspended on the cross when Jesus said to him, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), he was being pronounced as saved by Christ without being required to be baptized. As one well-known preacher put it, “There was no water within 10 miles of the cross.” Please give consideration to two important observations. First, the thief may well have been baptized prior to being placed on the cross. Considerable scriptural evidence points to this conclusion (Matthew 3:5-6; Mark 1:4-5; Luke 3:21; 7:29-30). If he was, in fact, baptized, he would have been baptized with the baptism administered by John the baptizer. John’s baptism was temporary (i.e., in force only during his personal ministry, terminating at the death of Christ). However, even John’s baptism was “for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:4) and, hence, essential for salvation for those to whom it was addressed. John’s baptism, like the one administered by Jesus while He was on Earth (John 3:22,26; 4:1-2), was unique and temporary. It was addressed only to Jews, and only to the Jews who populated the vicinity of Jerusalem and Judea. It was designed to prepare the Jewish people for the arrival of the Messiah. But John’s baptism must not be confused with New Testament baptism that is addressed to everybody, and that did not take effect until after the cross of Christ. If the thief was a Jew, and if he already had submitted to John’s baptism, there would have been no need for him to be re-baptized. He simply would have needed to repent of his post-baptism thievery and acknowledge his sins—which the text plainly indicates that he did. Second, and most important, the real issue pertains to an extremely crucial feature of Bible interpretation. This hermeneutical feature is so critical that, if a person does not grasp it, his effort to sort out Bible teaching, in order to arrive at correct conclusions, will be inevitably hampered. This principle was spotlighted by Paul when he wrote to Timothy and told him he must “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). In other words, if one simply takes the entire Bible—all 66 books—and treats them as if everything that is said applies directly and equally to everyone, his effort to be in harmony with God’s Word will be hopeless and futile. For example, if a person turned to Genesis 6 and read where God instructed Noah to build a boat, if he did not study enough to determine whether such instruction applied to himself, he would end up building his own boat—the entire time thinking that God wanted him to do so! The Bible is literally filled with commands, instructions, and requirements that were not intended to be duplicated by people living today. Does God forbid you and me from eating a certain fruit (Genesis 2:17; 3:3)? Are we to refrain from boiling a baby goat in its mother’s milk (Exodus 23:19)? Does God want you and me to offer our son as a burnt offering (Genesis 22:2)? Are we commanded to load up and leave our homeland (Genesis 12:1)? Moving to the New Testament, does God want you to sell everything you have and give it to the poor (Matthew 19:21)? Does God expect you to leave everything, quit your job, and devote yourself full time to spiritual pursuits (Matthew 4:20; 19:27; Mark 10:28; Luke 5:28)? Does God intend for you to “desire spiritual gifts” (1 Corinthians 14:1), i.e., seek to possess miraculous abilities? The point is that the entire Bible applies to the entire human race. However, careful and diligent study is necessary to determine how it applies. We must understand the biblical distinction between the application of the principles of the Bible and the specific details. Here, then, is the central point as it pertains to the relevance of the thief on the cross: Beginning at Creation, all humans were amenable to the laws of God that were given to them at that time. Bible students typically call this period of time the Patriarchal Dispensation. During this period, which lasted from Creation to roughly the time of the cross, non-Jews were subject to a body of legislation passed down by God through the fathers of family clans (cf. Hebrews 11:1). In approximately 1,500 B.C., God removed the genetic descendants of Abraham from Egyptian bondage, took them out into the Sinai desert, and gave them their own law code (the Law of Moses). Jews were subject to that body of legal information from that time until it, too, was terminated at the cross of Christ. The following passages substantiate these assertions: Matthew 27:51; Romans 2:12-16; Galatians 3:7-29; Ephesians 2:11-22; Colossians 2:11-17. The book of Hebrews addresses this subject extensively. To get to the heart of the matter quickly, read especially Hebrews 9:15-17. When one “correctly handles the Word of truth,” one sees that the Bible teaches that when Christ died on the cross, Mosaic law came to an end, and patriarchal law shortly thereafter. At that point, all humans on the planet became amenable to the law of Christ (cf. Galatians 6:2). The law of Christ consists strictly of information that is intended to be in effect after the death of Christ. It includes some of the things that Jesus and His disciples taught while He was still on Earth. But as regards the specifics of salvation, one must go to Acts 2 and the rest of the New Testament (especially the book of Acts) in order to determine what one must do today to be saved. Beginning in Acts 2, the new covenant of Christ took effect, and every single individual who responded correctly to the preaching of the gospel was baptized in water in order to be forgiven of sin by the blood of Christ. Every detail of an individual’s conversion is not always mentioned, but a perusal of the book of Acts demonstrates decisively that water immersion was a prerequisite to forgiveness, along with faith, repentance, and confession of the deity of Christ (Acts 2:38,41; 8:12,13,16,36-38; 9:18; 10:47-48; 16:15,33; 18:8; 19:5; 22:16). The thief was not subject to the New Testament command to be baptized into Christ’s death (Romans 6:3-4), just as Moses, Abraham, and David were not amenable to it. They all lived prior to the cross under different law codes. They could not have been baptized into Christ’s death—because He had not yet died! The establishment of the church of Christ and the launching of the Christian religion did not occur until after Christ’s death, on the day of Pentecost in the year A.D. 30 in the city of Jerusalem (Acts 2). An honest and accurate appraisal of the biblical data forces us to conclude that the thief on the cross is not an appropriate example of how people are to be saved this side of the cross. Dave Miller _____________________________________________________________________________ Vicap posted the above in our thread on the Thief on the Cross on 11/21/03 Pretty darn good explanation. Have at it. Dram out

I dont even know who dave miller is.
If you are from the Church of Christ i understand why you have this perception.

We will have to agree to disagree.

From what i have read and been taught all that is required is Faith in Christ, no works.
its a free gift, if someone is in Christ you will know by their fuits.
Baptism is not required for salvation.
I am not going to quote a bunch of scripture because you have the same Bible  as me, you just look at them differently.

Quoted: The following is from ETH from our 11/03 debate on the Gen Disc board with a few members. I quote him, as he is well worth quoting and listening to, hopefully he does not mind: Now, let me cite you the prime example of a sory about Baptism from a pre-Chrisitan Church aspect, and one from which Jesus specifically mentioned! The Story of Naaman the Syrian, who was a captain of the Host of Syria, and, who had leprosy. The story is found in 2 Kings, Chapter 5: 8 And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel. 9 So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? 14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. 15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. It was in telling this very story that Jesus was threatened with physical violence by the People of Israel! Here's how He explained it to the People of Israel: 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. Why was He telling the Story of the Widow Woman and Naaman the Syrian? Because both stories emphasized that OBEDIENCE TO GOD was what was necessary to receive God's Blessings. SO IT IS WITH GRACE! You MUST believe! You MUST repent! You MUST confess His Name! You MUST be baptized. Now, how is that any different than the Story of Naaman the Syrian? He was told a very specific thing to do by Elisha the Prophet in order to receive cleansing. 'Dip yourself seven times in the Jordan River!' We are told a very specific thing to do by Jesus the Savior: Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. John 3:5 Now, Naaman questioned the necessity of doing what the Prophet said the Lord commanded: 'Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean?' Just as some of y'all are now saying, 'Well, it's only an outward act of an inner transformation, and Jesus really didn't mean to exalt form over substance, and really the only reason to do it is because it's a public act that identifies you with Christianity, and there's nothing special about it, and you can do it any old way you wish!' Sounds just like the reasonings of Naaman the Syrian, doesn't it? Had Naaman not following the Prophet's instructions to the 't', and had only dipped 6 times in the Jordan River, or maybe only a creek that was a tributary of the Jordan River, or saying about a river in Syria, 'We'll just call this 'the Jordan River' for now', and dip here, do you think he would have been healed? Nope. Why? Cause he didn't obey the Word of God. Period. Remember what Jesus said to those who thought that keeping the commandments was not a big deal? And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46. And, again, see how He calls us to obedience: [If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10 Y'all do as your heart guided by the Holy Spirit tells you to do. And, then tell me that you are keeping His Commandments! Otherwise.... Dram out

You know ETH seems to know a lot about the Bible,
He is COC also, I do not believe the same way they do in regards to baptism being required for salvation.
 Salvation is a free gift.

2 Thes.[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Go ahead and believe the lie.

Quoted: 2 Thes.[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Go ahead and believe the lie.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of GOD:not as a result of works. that no one should boast.

1. That smiley pig really creeps me out.

2. Baptism is a sacrament ordained by Christ Himself that all Christians should perform. Now baptism itself is not what saves, just as communion itself saves no one, but it is representative of our salvation and dedication to Jesus Christ. Being dunked does not save us, but the change of heart brought about by our salvation through Christ ought to manifest in our doing His works.

Faith in water baptism is religion.  It is a faith that gets your body wet, and your soul remains lost.

Saving faith in Jesus Christ is just that.... Trusting HIM and what HE DID.

Not what YOU DO.

I was submerged in water - baptized in water.  But that DID NOT PLAY ANY PART IN SAVING MY SOUL.

Jesus Christ saves sinners.

Not man-made religion....  whether it tells you to trust sacraments, keeping the sabbath, water baptism, doing acceptable social work, or any other deed that YOU DO.

Trusting in what JESUS ACCOMPLISHED and trusting water baptism are NOT THE SAME.

Self-righteous souls don't get it.  They are compelled by PRIDE to trust their own actions.

Ah, Criley... wondered when you would show up.

Criley, folks, is not a Faithist... he is a Trustist.

He believes in Trust not Faith.

He likes Trust much better, although they both contain five letters. And the same number of syllables. I wonder why? He and Faithists differ not one whit in their system of verse selection.

Anyhow.

Criley, my Trustist friend, you are as welcome here as any of the rest of us. I am just waiting for Patsue to show up too. Wonder where he is?

But anon:

Criley, you are hilarious really in your Trustist assertions. Funny in a truly horrifying way.

By thinking, utterly wrongheadedly, that I am DOING ANYTHING that might add to Christ granting me rebirth is complete hogwash. (the pig avatar is pretty funny!!)

I do nothing other than obey his demand.

I also absolutely Trust in Him. Or I would not be here spending so much time preaching against false doctrine.

Christ established baptism, even you Criley cannot refute that. The scriptures cast your lies back in your face.

I actually am chuckling while writing this but it in truth is NOT FUNNY. Criley being so obtuse has made me chuckle before and is at it again.

Lets examine your assertion that baptism just gets you wet Criley:

In your case, all it did was get you wet. You do not believe in baptism for the remission of sins but Christ does:
Ac:22:16: And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Yes Criley, please enlighten me... what washing away your sins DOESNT MEAN. I didnt cleanse my sins... CHRIST DID IT. In the waters of HIS BAPTISM.

Religion is exactly what you are into Criley, you who purport yourself to be apart from it. You are a born and bred faith only Baptist. But apparently you dont want that label, which is fine. You, and they, have chosen to excise the portions of salvation that curiously offend you.

What do you have against being born again Criley? Christ explains it clearly to Nicodemus, can you not understand? It is rather clear actually. Unless you are hard hearted and your conscience seared you would not reject being born again:

Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro:6:5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Ro:6:6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

But that simple scripture is NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. I know it isnt. There is nothing that can change that scripture and YOU HATE THAT. I dont know why for the life of me, but YOU DO.

Which is your God given right, by the way. And I support your right to reject ANYTHING you dont like or want. It is your choice, so good on ya fella'

You cannot see the forest for the big green leafy things standing in the way.

You refuse to FULFILL what Christ demanded of believers, those who TRUST IN HIM AND NOT THEMSELVES.

But anyway... time for a workout! Couldnt resist welcoming you to the Religion Forum.

Dram out

So when are ya'll going to get a pen and mark out all the salvation by baptism parts of the bible?   In every account in the bible when someone or a group accepted the teaching of Christ and wanted to join the "way" they were baptised as an outward sign of their inward choice. To say that you can be saved and be a Christian without following the teaching of your holy book would mean that you don't accept that book 100% so you have to ask yourself, just how "Christian" are you if you won't follow your religion as it's presented in the holy writtings?  
 Of course I guess that Muslims and Jews can eat all the pork and catfish that they want and still be a Muslim or Jew, right?   Heck, I guess I can still offer to Thor and Odin and be a Christian, can't I?  After all, it's not what you do, it's "grace" that saves me, so I can be Heathen and be Christian all at the same time according to ya'll.  

Quoted: Ah, Criley... wondered when you would show up. Criley, folks, is not a Faithist... he is a Trustist. He believes in Trust not Faith. He likes Trust much better, although they both contain five letters. And the same number of syllables. I wonder why? He and Faithists differ not one whit in their system of verse selection. Anyhow. Criley, my Trustist friend, you are as welcome here as any of the rest of us. I am just waiting for Patsue to show up too. Wonder where he is? But anon: Criley, you are hilarious really in your Trustist assertions. Funny in a truly horrifying way. By thinking, utterly wrongheadedly, that I am DOING ANYTHING that might add to Christ granting me rebirth is complete hogwash. (the pig avatar is pretty funny!!) I do nothing other than obey his demand. I also absolutely Trust in Him. Or I would not be here spending so much time preaching against false doctrine. Christ established baptism, even you Criley cannot refute that. The scriptures cast your lies back in your face. I actually am chuckling while writing this but it in truth is NOT FUNNY. Criley being so obtuse has made me chuckle before and is at it again. Lets examine your assertion that baptism just gets you wet Criley: In your case, all it did was get you wet. You do not believe in baptism for the remission of sins but Christ does: Ac:22:16: And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Yes Criley, please enlighten me... what washing away your sins DOESNT MEAN. I didnt cleanse my sins... CHRIST DID IT. In the waters of HIS BAPTISM. Religion is exactly what you are into Criley, you who purport yourself to be apart from it. You are a born and bred faith only Baptist. But apparently you dont want that label, which is fine. You, and they, have chosen to excise the portions of salvation that curiously offend you. What do you have against being born again Criley? Christ explains it clearly to Nicodemus, can you not understand? It is rather clear actually. Unless you are hard hearted and your conscience seared you would not reject being born again: Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Ro:6:5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Ro:6:6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. But that simple scripture is NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. I know it isnt. There is nothing that can change that scripture and YOU HATE THAT. I dont know why for the life of me, but YOU DO. Which is your God given right, by the way. And I support your right to reject ANYTHING you dont like or want. It is your choice, so good on ya fella' You cannot see the forest for the big green leafy things standing in the way. You refuse to FULFILL what Christ demanded of believers, those who TRUST IN HIM AND NOT THEMSELVES. But anyway... time for a workout! Couldnt resist welcoming you to the Religion Forum. Dram out

I am not Criley.

but isnt faith and trust interchangable.

You trust that Christ will keep HIS word.

I agree we should be baptised, we are commanded to be. but it is not required for salvation.

Romans 10:9-10
That  if you confess with your mouth  that Jesus as LORD and believe in your heart that GOD raised  HIM from the dead, You shall be saved, for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses,resulting in salvation.

Quoted: So when are ya'll going to get a pen and mark out all the salvation by baptism parts of the bible?   In every account in the bible when someone or a group accepted the teaching of Christ and wanted to join the "way" they were baptised as an outward sign of their inward choice.

You hit the nail on the head

thanks

Quoted: Quoted: So when are ya'll going to get a pen and mark out all the salvation by baptism parts of the bible?   In every account in the bible when someone or a group accepted the teaching of Christ and wanted to join the "way" they were baptised as an outward sign of their inward choice.     You hit the nail on the head thanks

LOL, You're more then welcome.  If a person truly believes that the Christian path is the right one then he should do all that he can to follow the commandment of Jesus to be baptized.  If I were uncircumcised and wished to follow the Hebrew path I'd have to be circumcised to become a Jew, no two ways around it, that's what it takes.  I don't care how "Jewish" I felt in my heart, until I got circumcised I wouldn't be a true Jew and a follower of the Hebrew path.  Same goes for Christians, if it's in your heart and you feel it's your path then you must, in all good faith, get baptized.  There's not one single place in the NT after the resurection of Christ where ANYONE was saved without baptism.  
 You can not follow any path without following the teachings of that path. If you try then you're not truly following that path, it's a copycat that's not totally the true path.  

Quoted: There's not one single place in the NT after the resurection of Christ where ANYONE was saved without baptism.

You forgot about the thief besides Christ on the cross.

We are commanded to be baptised, but it is not required for salvation.

If you know so much, Why do you deny Christ??  honestly

Quoted: Quoted: There's not one single place in the NT after the resurection of Christ where ANYONE was saved without baptism.     You forgot about the thief besides Christ on the cross. We are commanded to be baptised, but it is not required for salvation. If you know so much, Why do you deny Christ??  honestly

Theif on the Cross+ OT dude, totally different dispensation with totally different rules. You won't find one place where someone is "saved" were they're not baptized too.  You can't ride the train unless you buy a ticket, it's that simple.

As for why I deny it all, it's because I'd rather follow something else then follow a lie.  All of the churches in my area follow the Myth and not the Truth and actually, I really feel much better as a person following Asatru without the "guilt trips" and begging that goes on in Christanity.   My gods are kin, not some being that I HAVE TO bow to.  I worship them because I want to, not because they try and scare me into it with  "Hell" or other threats.  
To each his own but if you're going to follow a religion just make sure that you follow the truth of that religion. Most of the "Christians" that I see don't follow the truth that's in the bible, they follow the Myth that's taught in  most churches, the traditions of men, not the word of god and following that  and calling yourself a Christian is just wrong on so many levels.  

Quoted: Quoted: There's not one single place in the NT after the resurection of Christ where ANYONE was saved without baptism.     You forgot about the thief besides Christ on the cross. We are commanded to be baptised, but it is not required for salvation. If you know so much, Why do you deny Christ??  honestly

JESUS SAYS: KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS


If ye love Me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15


He that has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves Me: and he that loves Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. - John 15:10

Do you really think you can be a "Christian" and not follow the commandments that Jesus told you to follow.  That just doesn't make sence.  "Sure, I'm a Christian and I love Jesus but I don't have to be baptized to be save.", Yah, right.  So you get saved and the first thing you do  is ignore what your Lord told you to do. Not much of a Christian are ya'?  

Quoted: Quoted: So when are ya'll going to get a pen and mark out all the salvation by baptism parts of the bible?   In every account in the bible when someone or a group accepted the teaching of Christ and wanted to join the "way" they were baptised as an outward sign of their inward choice.     You hit the nail on the head thanks

You mean An outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So when are ya'll going to get a pen and mark out all the salvation by baptism parts of the bible?   In every account in the bible when someone or a group accepted the teaching of Christ and wanted to join the "way" they were baptised as an outward sign of their inward choice.     You hit the nail on the head thanks You mean An outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace?

Yes

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There's not one single place in the NT after the resurection of Christ where ANYONE was saved without baptism.     You forgot about the thief besides Christ on the cross. We are commanded to be baptised, but it is not required for salvation. If you know so much, Why do you deny Christ??  honestly JESUS SAYS: KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS If ye love Me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15 He that has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves Me: and he that loves Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. - John 15:10 Do you really think you can be a "Christian" and not follow the commandments that Jesus told you to follow.  That just doesn't make sence.  "Sure, I'm a Christian and I love Jesus but I don't have to be baptized to be save.", Yah, right.  So you get saved and the first thing you do  is ignore what your Lord told you to do. Not much of a Christian are ya'?

You are correct we should keep all of the commandments that Jesus told us to do.
You will keep a good relationship with Christ.

But if you dont keep HIS commandments you dont lose your salvation.
Salvation is a free gift.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have beem saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of GOD.
not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

John 5:24
Truly, truly , i say to you, he who hears my voice, and believes HIM who sent ME, has eternal life.
and does not come into judgement, but has everlasting life.


What are you going to say when you stand before GOD?
why do you not believe?

Walt,

I really like your avatar!

Anyhow, you bring up the thief again, did you not read any of the TWO discussions of the theif I posted?

Oh well.


_______________________________________________________________________
Romans 10:9-10
________________________________________________________________________

Did you not read the posts before these Walt?

You admit it is a commandment to be baptized yet you say it is not required.

HUH???

Jesus said it just to flap His gums? Cuz he thought it was cute to make everyone take a bath??

Christ did NOTHING without that it had purpose and meaning for us. NOTHING.

I agree totally with ALL OF YOU FAITHISTS!!!!!!!! where you discuss Grace...I cannot say this enough!!

Grace does the job... and to partake of this WHAT DOES CHRIST ASK US TO DO???

Be buried in the likeness of His death and rise like He did into a new Life! There is NO OTHER SCRIPTURE that describes and specifies this second birth, this regeneration... this washing away of sin other than THOSE ABOUT BAPTISM.

None.

I just throw my hands up and wonder what the reading comprehension is round' these parts.

Jas:5:12: But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Do you folks think that it is some sort of play on words here?? It is in the plain and spoken tongue of the time. Both Greek and Aramaic. Both are very specific and written for the poor uneducated folk whom Christ came for, and still calls for this day.

Oh well. If plainly worded scripture fails to get across the point, then you folks have put aside the Word, to be specific the parts that dont agree with you, and gone your own path.

Which is fine you know.

For you guys.

Not me. I am not going to explain to the Lord that, "yeah I know you commanded it but I thought a commandment from the Son of God was ... you know... somewhat open to personal interpretation... and you know more of a rough kinda' suggestion, that it would be nice but you know... not totally gotta do it"  Oh boy I wouldnt wear your shoes that day for ANYTHING. "yeah Lord... you said baptize yadda yadda ... but you talked about Grace and stuff and I liked that so much better than when you said WHY to get baptized, Grace is so much better without the whole water burial thing... so much more convenient"


You will not touch baptism with a ten foot pole but cling to Grace in a death grip... they are inextricably bound together by Jesus Christ. One without the other is pointless. They are of Christ not me or anyone who has ever believed in baptism.

As no surprise to anyone, I did not write the Book... but I sure can READ IT. And I know I am not supposed to add to it or take away from it. Take it as read.

Anyhow... Walt try reading my posts. I have contrasted Faith only with a corollary based on working in a vineyard for certain wages. See if it makes my points any clearer.

Dram out

You want it straight, ok, I'll tell you straight. I got tired of all of the Bull Crap. Of all of the people that refused to see what the word of god said and believed the myth rather then the truth. I got sick and tired of begging to a god that had nothing in common with me and would just throw me away if I didn't lock step to his plan.  My gods are flawed, just like me.  They have real feelings and I can relate to them like I never could relate to YHVH.  Odin has lost an eye, Tyr is missing a hand, Thor(my patron) has a bad temper but will bend over backwards to help his own.  They're Kin, they're like I am and I can relate.  I'm not given a guilt trip or threatened with "Hell" if I don't follow them.  Asatru is my ancestoral religion, it's the religoin of all Native Europeans and it's my birth right to follow my Elder Kin. It just feels right and I'm at peace with my religion.  I can toast my gods and offer them a cold beer and they respect that offering. I live with Honor and Pride in my heritage, I don't have to be ashamed to be who I am before my gods. I am worth of them and I honor them because of it.  I guess it's alot like riding a Harley, if I have to tell ya' you won't understand.  In Frith and Troth.  

Quoted: Walt, I really like your avatar! Anyhow, you bring up the thief again, did you not read any of the TWO discussions of the theif I posted? Oh well. _______________________________________________________________________ Romans 10:9-10 ________________________________________________________________________ Did you not read the posts before these Walt? You admit it is a commandment to be baptized yet you say it is not required. HUH??? Jesus said it just to flap His gums? Cuz he thought it was cute to make everyone take a bath?? Christ did NOTHING without that it had purpose and meaning for us. NOTHING. I agree totally with ALL OF YOU FAITHISTS!!!!!!!! where you discuss Grace...I cannot say this enough!! Grace does the job... and to partake of this WHAT DOES CHRIST ASK US TO DO??? Be buried in the likeness of His death and rise like He did into a new Life! There is NO OTHER SCRIPTURE that describes and specifies this second birth, this regeneration... this washing away of sin other than THOSE ABOUT BAPTISM. None. I just throw my hands up and wonder what the reading comprehension is round' these parts. Jas:5:12: But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Do you folks think that it is some sort of play on words here?? It is in the plain and spoken tongue of the time. Both Greek and Aramaic. Both are very specific and written for the poor uneducated folk whom Christ came for, and still calls for this day. Oh well. If plainly worded scripture fails to get across the point, then you folks have put aside the Word, to be specific the parts that dont agree with you, and gone your own path. Which is fine you know. For you guys. Not me. I am not going to explain to the Lord that, "yeah I know you commanded it but I thought a commandment from the Son of God was ... you know... somewhat open to personal interpretation... and you know more of a rough kinda' suggestion, that it would be nice but you know... not totally gotta do it"  Oh boy I wouldnt wear your shoes that day for ANYTHING. "yeah Lord... you said baptize yadda yadda ... but you talked about Grace and stuff and I liked that so much better than when you said WHY to get baptized, Grace is so much better without the whole water burial thing... so much more convenient" You will not touch baptism with a ten foot pole but cling to Grace in a death grip... they are inextricably bound together by Jesus Christ. One without the other is pointless. They are of Christ not me or anyone who has ever believed in baptism. As no surprise to anyone, I did not write the Book... but I sure can READ IT. And I know I am not supposed to add to it or take away from it. Take it as read. Anyhow... Walt try reading my posts. I have contrasted Faith only with a corollary based on working in a vineyard for certain wages. See if it makes my points any clearer. Dram out

Yes i read your previous post, but claiming that the thief was already baptised is kinda farfetched, there is no Biblical evidence to confirm that.

But yet JESUS told the thief he was to see paradise for merely proclaiming that  Christ was who he said  he was.  The thief only professed faith and nothing else.

You are overlooking this fact to support your salvation for works.


Salvation is a free gift.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have beem saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of GOD.
not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

John 5:24
Truly, truly , i say to you, he who hears my voice, and believes HIM who sent ME, has eternal life.
and does not come into judgement, but has everlasting life.

I am not saying we should not be baptised, i am saying it is not necessary for salvation.
No works are needed for salvation,-none

I supposed you dont proclaim the Christ to any sick,old  people or people on their deathbed. because if they are not baptised they cant enter heaven?

Wouldn't it be kind of worthless to claim a religion at the end of your life. After all, the entire point of religion is to have guidance in living your life, not as some "get out of jail free" card that you play at the end of your days.  

Well Dram,

You speak of Ananias speaking to Saul - who becomes Paul.

Now to whom was the mystery of the gospel given?  Was it given to Ananias to understand?

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,  20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

The mystery of the gospel was shown to PAUL to proclaim.

Ananias did not understand it.  Peter did not understand it.  The others did not understand it.  They preached the gospel, but without a full understanding until AFTER Paul received instruction from God and AFTER Paul wrote INSPIRED letters to the churches.

PAUL was given the revelation, and we must see what God had him to write:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Let me emphasize the words...  NOT TO BAPTIZE - this is simple and clear.  Baptism that men perform are NOT part of the gospel.

Not to baptize BUT - Okay, there is something important to follow.....

Not to baptize but TO PREACH THE GOSPEL  -  well, if people believe THE WORD OF GOD, then baptisms performed by men have NOTHING TO DO WITH PREACHING THE GOSPEL.

The problem is, that self-righteous men hate the preaching of the gospel but they love their RELIGION.  And so they ALWAYS point to the RELIGIOUS things that they do for themselves.  Like you folks who trust in your religious act of water baptism always do.  But let's go on for the sake of the open minded.

Paul speaks of that WHICH HE RECEIVED when he got saved.

1 Cor 15:

1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether [it were] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Paul explains how he got saved.  There is NO MENTION  WHATSOEVER OF WATER BAPTISM.

None.

Nada.

Zip.

No water baptism,  No confession to a priest.  No Eucharist.  No abstaining from pork.  No keeping the 10 commandments.  No church membership.  NO WORKS WHATSOEVER......  Paul simply TRUSTS JESUS' FINISHED WORK.

1Co 1:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Those who are religious but LOST always point AWAY from the cross and AWAY from Jesus.

They point to the baptismal pool.

They point to the priest.

They point to wafer.

They point to WORKS and NOT to the FINISHED WORK of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Self-righteous, prideful men will trust THEIR OWN WORKS.

Men who allow God to humble them will point to the Lord Jesus Christ.

From verse 20 above:

JESUS is my wisdom.

JESUS is my righteousness.

JESUS is my sanctification.

JESUS is my redemption.

It is ALL about HIM.

Just what I thought Criley.

An endless loop or screed if you will against baptism.

I didnt institute it.

Jesus did.

You will have to take it up with Him, I am afraid.

Calling it a work, how insufferable are you to think that I am doing ANYTHING, other than obeying Christ and his commandment to those that believe.

Cut and paste christianity is your style not mine. And if Jesus declares in the scripture to be baptized...

Then I will go and do just that thing.

All you received was getting wet Criley, that is a fact. Without Faith, it availed you NOTHING. You reject the Word, and its message, choosing only the bits you would like to see, whereas I take it all ... whether I like it or not.

And as for Paul, oh you wicked man ...why did you not show the rest of that scripture Criley? Because people would know why Paul was glad he did not baptize more people? Paul was glad he did not baptize more people because contentions were rising due to the fact people were saying they were of different factions due to who either preached or baptized them.

1Co:1:11: For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co:1:12: Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co:1:13: Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co:1:14: I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co:1:15: Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co:1:16: And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co:1:17: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

All that scripture and all those mentions of baptism. But it means nothing. To you anyway.

You just sit there and say it is not so Criley. You KNOW why Paul said this, anybody that reads that passage and has a 4th grade education knows what Paul is speaking about.  HE DOES NOT WANT PEOPLE SAYING THEY ARE OF PAUL and NOT OF JESUS. Because people are already choosing factions and he does not want to be caught up in that.  Especially since there is a great focus on himself. The baptizing of people was a labor that his assistants could do... Paul was sent to preach the Gospel. Not EVERYONE was personally chosen by our Lord to go to the gentiles to preach and teach. But PAUL WAS!


Oh you twisty man.


What a shame it is.

Calling the obeyance to the will of Christ a "work" that Christ doesnt need is absolutely fascinating in such a sick way.

I just absolutely wonder where you picked this up at.


Oh well. Hopefully people will read this that have a comprehension level above that which you have displayed. The scriptures have no lie in them... but they can be twisted. That you have duly shown. Indeed.

Dram out

A lost, self-righteous man trusts HIS OWN OBEDIENCE.

One who is born again trusts the obedience of another.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Those who are saved trust the Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who are lost trust their water baptism, or their church membership, or their keeping the 10 commandments, etc.

You are so far into your pet theory that the Word has been rendered null and void to you. You have chosen that which you will believe and that which you will not.

Which is fine.

Really.

You get on wit' your own bad self

I happen to "TRUST" the Word... but in my case as apposed to yours... I "TRUST" them ALL.

You do NOT.

Which again is finer than frog hair

Dram out

Here's an idea:


Why don't you two talk past each other whilst arguing semantics?



Do both of you believe you're sinners, and Jesus died to save you from your sins?

Do you both agree that maybe, just maybe, us mere men don't completely and fully understand the mechanisms of salvation, and maybe, just maybe, if we decide to trust Jesus to save us from our sins, then maybe, just maybe, we oughta accept His sacrifice, and in obedience to Him, be baptised, and then tell others what he has done for us?

Does that sum up your positions?

if not, you need to take a long look in the mirror.

It pisses me off sometimes when I see how many different denominations there are because people can't swallow their pride long enough to realize they don't have a perfect handle on every little detail, NOR IS IT NECESSARY.

If someone genuinely trusts Jesus, repents of their sins, and gets baptised out of obedience, and then experiences a change in their life due to what Jesus has done for them, would someone PLEASE tell me exactly why it matters as to exactly what point we reached before being 'saved'?

Nowhere did Jesus EVER command us to argueover semantics or minutae of scripture. If someone is 'saved', or on the road to salvation (as the baptism - and - endure - to - the- end crowd believes), they will WANT to be baptised, and they will WANT to 'endure to the end' or 'keep the faith'.

I know 10-year old kids who have a better understanding of the core of the Gospel than some of the posters here.


Man, I get sick of denoiminational arguements.

(and yes, dram, you belong to a denomination, even though your church is fond of using a clever play on words to distinguish itself from 'denominational' churches)

Quoted:


Do you both agree that maybe, just maybe, us mere men don't completely and fully understand the mechanisms of salvation, and maybe, just maybe, if we decide to trust Jesus to save us from our sins, then maybe, just maybe, we oughta accept His sacrifice, and in obedience to Him, be baptised, and then tell others what he has done for us?

Faith in water baptism and faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ are not one and the same.  Salvation is not complicated.  It is a SIMPLE matter.

Mt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and UNDERSTANDETH [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and HATH GIVEN US AN UNDERSTANDING, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.

Mr 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Salvation is so SIMPLE that a LITTLE CHILD can understand and be saved.

Being water baptized is NOT the issue.  Trusting water baptism is the issue.

It pisses me off sometimes when I see how many different denominations there are because people can't swallow their pride long enough to realize they don't have a perfect handle on every little detail, NOR IS IT NECESSARY.

You need to stop getting angry and start learning.  

When you see me pointing to Jesus Christ and another pointing to their religious acts and say it is just a matter of SEMANTICS then you show you lack basic understanding of Bible doctrine - specifically, salvation.

It is not prideful to fully trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.  It IS prideful to trust in something OTHER than Him.

And doctrine is of the UTMOST importance:

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If someone genuinely trusts Jesus, repents of their sins, and gets baptised out of obedience, and then experiences a change in their life due to what Jesus has done for them, would someone PLEASE tell me exactly why it matters as to exactly what point we reached before being 'saved'?

Trusting another Jesus with another gospel who cannot save lost sinners without water baptism is NOT trusting in THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.  Those who GENUINELY trust Jesus Christ as their Saviour DO NOT POINT OTHERS TO A TUB OF WATER, they point them to JESUS CHRIST.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

Nowhere did Jesus EVER command us to argueover semantics or minutae of scripture. If someone is 'saved', or on the road to salvation (as the baptism - and - endure - to - the- end crowd believes), they will WANT to be baptised, and they will WANT to 'endure to the end' or 'keep the faith'.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that YE SHOULD EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH which was once delivered unto the saints.

Man, I get sick of denoiminational arguements.

What you need to understand is, that people who trust these other things (water baptism, sacraments, diet ... all these denominational teachings... ARE NOT SAVED.

They are exactly what the Bible warns against:

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Hi Arowneragain,

Your post is well spoken. Up to a point.

But rest assured I know what you are saying.



Now onto the recurrent blasphemy that Criley is spouting.


I will now refer to Criley as 50%, since he is half saved.

If Criley insists in believing only 1/2 of Christs message, he is officially and hereby pronounced 50% saved.

If that were at all possible.

Which it isnt.

Criley, I TRUST that you are 50% of the way to salvation.

And I also TRUST that Christ instituting baptism had nothing to do with me.

Not in my hands. Decision by the boss... you know Christ Jesus.

So continue steadfastly in your 50%, you are half way home Criley... half way.


Dram out