Quoted:Yet at the same time, I can argue it doesn't say people are chosen TO believe.

We are chosen in Him. How? "He who believes (active voice) in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."  But there I go making the case that it is your responsibility to do word studies in Greek if you really want to get into the word of God. It's easy, here's a site that'll help: https://www.blueletterbible.org/

Of course, that's the dirty side of Calvinism.

But that's what you did. Ephesians 2 clearly states in the Greek that the gift is "salvation by grace through faith". And I have looked for Calvinist rebuttals and all the ones that I've found are just deflections from the point.

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You're not sticking to the text though.

You've been fooled into taking two verses and stuffing them with a theological system that they don't support.

Again, we are in agreement with the bolded statement. Where we disagree is the determinism that you're adding into that statement that belief is passive and we're saying it's active. If we are passive in faith, then why is that not written in verse 13?

You're arguing out in left field from my point of view. And you can diagram it all day long in English, but it was written down in a foreign language. It's not saying God chose us to be saved, but chose Christ as the one who we need to be in (i.e. "IN HIM") to be H&B. The only onapplying apply "special sauce" is you, because you bought what some preacher was selling and not what the Apostles wrote down.

At this point you're arguing in circles.

“The question you have raised has to do with an issue that theologians have been wrestling with for centuries. The Calvinistic and the Arminian position highlight their own views in attempting to answer this question. The passage you have referred to in Romans is taken out of Paul’s letter in which he is dealing with the privileged position that Israel has as being the mouthpiece to the nations of the world, and the passage in Peter, of course, is referring to the fact that God is not desiring that anyone should perish. If I may rephrase your question, you are wrestling with the dialectic of the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. Let me try and give you a couple of illustrations before dealing with it theologically and in a mild philosophical manner.

The sovereignty and responsibility issue should really be seen as two opposite poles of the same position. Light, for example, is viewed from some vantage points as particles. From other vantage points it is viewed as waves. Scientists are aware that light could not be both particles and waves, so they have coined a term for it, a kind of a construct, and they call it a “photon.” All they have done is create a word and a category that accommodates both perspectives which are real. I think you should view the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man as a kind of a precious stone with two facets to it. When it catches the light from one direction, you see one color; when it catches the light from the other direction you see the other color. Our propensity in the Western world to put God into a box and to systematize everything sometimes violates a fundamental precept in philosophy. It is not possible for a finite person to infinitely understand the infinite. If a finite person can fully understand the infinite, the very category of infinity is destroyed. So my proposal to you is to see both of these perspectives and hold them in balance.

For example, the biblical writers held these in tension. When you look at Acts 2:23, Peter is addressing the people. After the crucifixion of Jesus, he says, “That which God hath ordained from before the foundation of the world, you with wicked hands have taken and crucified.” What is he talking about? “That which God hath foreordained (the sovereignty of God) you with wicked hands have taken and crucified (the responsibility of man).” Peter holds it in tension. The apostle Paul in Philippians 2:12 does the same thing. He says, “Work out your own salvation (the responsibility of man), for it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (the sovereignty of God).” So Paul holds it in tension. Jesus also in Matthew 18:7 says, “Offenses must come, but woe unto him through whom they come”–the sovereignty of God and responsibility of man. So in an attempt to try to clearly highlight either of these two extremes, you will do violence to the other.

In your example of Romans 9, it is imperative that you understand the context. In Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11, Paul is primarily writing to the Jewish church in order to get them to understand that the chosenness that God had given to them was a privilege with concomitant responsibilities. He goes on to show that their privileged position was given to them because someone had to be a mouthpiece to the world and God chose the least of all the nations. He did not choose the philosophers in Greece; He did not choose the imperial might of Rome; He did not choose the splendor of Babylon. He chose a tiny little nation with whom and through whom He was going to pronounce the oracles to the rest of the world. Now, with that great privilege came a proportionate responsibility. So that chosenness was one of instrumentality, and to whom much was given much was also required. In the same way, I believe this principle applies to preachers. Just because we are called upon to stand in front of people and proclaim, it does not necessarily mean we have a better deal going for us. The fact is that our lives must be proportionate to the privilege and responsibility.

The passage in Peter expresses God’s desire for all mankind. Of course, He is not willing that any should perish. Now, what you need to do is recognize that foreknowledge and foreordination are not the same thing. I may know, for example, that as I see my child about to lift something heavy that he is not going to be able to lift it, but there are times when I stand back and watch in an attempt to teach this individual the fact that there are some loads too heavy for a smaller body to handle. Now when you are looking at the sovereignty of God, it is undeniable that God is sovereign in history. He is even able to take the evil intents of people and turn them around to good benefits. But isn’t that true of all life? There are some things in life that are givens–you and I have no control over them, but we do have options as to how we are going to deal with those givens, and that is where our responsibility comes in.

When you think of the mystery of sovereignty and responsibility, the very incarnation of Christ carries this enigma. Here is the sovereign God dwelling in a finite body with all of its limitations. So in my initial answer to you, may I suggest that you look at these two points as opposite poles of a dialectic; we cannot take God and put Him in a box as absolutely free. Somewhere the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man meet. The picture I have in mind is not of overlapping circles, as if each circle represented one extreme of the pole, but of conjoining circles. At some spot the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man meet. To try to answer it and explain it away would require infinite knowledge. The challenge you and I face, therefore, in life is to see how we can responsibly operate within the parameters that are so clear–God is sovereign, and yet I have the freedom and reserve the right to say yes or to say no. You see, God has given to every man the fundamental privilege of trusting Him or refusing to trust Him. You know, the old illustration used to be the sign outside of Heaven saying “Whosoever will may come,” and once you enter in, you see the sign that says, “Chosen before the foundation of the world.” A person who is truly born again recognizes that it was really the grace of God that brought him there because he could ever have come this way himself. It does not in any way mitigate or violate the choice that he made. The choice man makes is to trust God’s provision. Frankly, the tendency we may sometimes have is to complain that there is only one door to Heaven. Rather than complaining about it, we ought to thank God that there is at least one door by which we may enter.

There have been Calvinists and Arminians, giants of the faith, on both sides of the fence. I believe what John Calvin says holds very true: “Where God has closed His holy mouth let us learn not to open ours.” My own perspective on this is that God’s assurance of sovereignty is given to the person who wonders whatever caused him to merit the salvation, and God’s challenge of free will is to the person who tends to blame God for having even brought him into this world and that he has nothing to do to control his destiny. When you look at the encounter between Pharaoh and Moses, you see the constant availability of data given to Pharaoh, and the hardening process is really not a predestined one. It is a description after the fact that God was going to reveal the face that this man’s heart was already hardened. Remember, God operates in the eternal now.

So to sum up once again, the chapters of Romans 9, 10 and 11 are Paul’s theological treatise to the Jews to alert them to the fact that this great privilege does not let them get away scot-free. They have an enormous and a proportionate responsibility. He goes on to alert other nations that, rather than complaining about it, they should be glad that a privilege was given to someone, and through that someone this message has come to them also. In fact, if you read Romans 1, 2 and 3, you will find out that the privilege that the Jew had, in many ways, for many of them, turned out to be a disadvantage. If you read Romans 5, you will find out that even though God called Abraham, it was the faith of Abraham that justified him. Once again you see the sovereignty and responsibility. Why don’t we leave this enigma within the divine mind and just be grateful for the privilege that we have heard His voice and we can turn and follow Him?

May I strongly recommend that you pick up the book written by J. I. Packer, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. His introductory comments alone, dealing with the difference between a contradiction and a paradox, are well done. If God were absolutely sovereign, then it would be a contradiction to say that man is absolutely free. God is not absolutely sovereign to the point that He can call something that is not as if it actually were. For example, God cannot make squares into circles. That would be a contradiction. So absolute sovereignty is really not what is being talked about here. God, therefore, has chosen to give us the option and, within that framework, He cannot call us free while absolutely violating that freedom. Both poles exist–His sovereignty and our responsibility. We rest on the fact that God is just, that God is love, that God is good, and He woos us enough so that we may trust Him and yet gives us enough freedom so that we might know that this freedom cannot be transformed into coercion.”

-Ravi K. Zacharias/ 1987

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I find it telling  that you neglected to address the verses he mentioned.

I don't believe that faith is something that is done to people, to the exclusion of them actually being the ones doing the believing, and have literally never seen that taught in anything reformed I have heard/read/seen anywhere.

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That's a serious strawman you have there regarding "calvinist determinism," and before you ask, no, I am not going to try and prove a negative. In 40+ years I have never encountered ANYONE I'd even remotely call reformed that teaches that  "faith is something done to people" and I am not going to change 40+ years on the basis of your merely *saying it is/must be that way.*

God saves, by choosing who will who will believe the gospel, he also has done what is necessary so that they will want to believe the gospel...

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God saves, by choosing who will who will believe the gospel,

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It's not for "no reason" it's for His Glory.  

The logic behind it is, we are all sinners and deserve hell.  God chose to save some.  We get what we do not deserve.  God did not choose some.  They do get what they deserve.  God is just.  I do believe you are looking at it from a humanistic view.  God doesn't owe us anything.  If there were 100 people in prison for and the warden or whoever let 10 go, and the rest had to finish their time..is he being unjust?  They all should be doing time.  The whole time.  The warden is showing mercy to some, and justice for the others.  It shows that if you break the law you will be punished, but also shows that he is merciful.  And also, no one who honestly seeks God will be turned away.  I think, scratch that, I know some people have the view that according to Reformed theology, if someone isn't elect then no matter how hard they try, God will not allow them to be saved.  It's not like that.  I know you disagree and that's fine.  But I never get the unjust argument.   We as humans don't decide what is just or unjust of God.

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Please share with us how that is a straw man argument.  That verse is not without debate and you know it.  What about women?  What about children?  So you are making an assumption.  All Chinese men? All white men?  How long does he go on wanting?  Till they die? Till he hardens their hearts?  He is all knowing so He knows before He creates them if they will be saved...Does He still hold out hope that they will be after He created them knowing they wouldn't?  Or does it mean that He wishes that all his elect will be saved and He ensures that it will be so?  Or does it mean that If things were perfect all would be, but since there is sin it isn't?   By saying all men means everyone you are introducing your presumption.  Which may very well be correct, but you are assuming.  God desires that no one sin.  However, we live in a fallen world and it is impossible not to sin.  But God desires it...So is God wrong by desiring us not to sin, knowing that it is impossible for us not to sin?

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You're asking me questions you should have ask yourself concerning how consistent your beliefs fit the Bible.

Because the Bible says that God desires all these things, yet you're going to sign-on to a system that says that God is the reason these things didn't happen.

And let's not forget that Calvin himself thought that God willed for men to Fall.

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That's evasion.