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Good on you for reading and wanting to be open-minded.

I have read the D&C many times. My wife and I are currently reading it as it is the primary text for this year's Sunday School Lessons.

I also freely admit there are several things that aren't as clear within it. I am grateful for modern prophets and continuing revelation.

Most importantly, I am grateful I can ask God directly and receive answers from the Holy Spirit to my questions. When things don't make sense to me, I try to understand, and ask for help; I always get it, just maybe not on my timeline.

Did you have any questions about D&C? I'm not a scripture expert, but I'm willing to try to help.

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Has anyone ever read it?   Thoughts?

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I have read it along with the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I intend no offense to my LDS bros but I thought it (BoM) was simply not needed as "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" (i.e. The Scripture we already have is sufficient).

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Cowdery said Smith would take a stone from the glasses, and place it in a hat...

Emma and Cowdery both said that Smith didn't need translators (stones, Urim and Thummim) later in the process. I assume because Smith had become better at translating.

It is an interesting discussion on art, and religion.

Medieval art always seemed to picture Christ and Mary in European scenes and near castles or with castles in the background...

There were only a few people who saw Smith translate. Neither of them were artists... And both pictures were, "accurate" based on Cowdery and Emma...

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Cowdery wrote that 49 years later. Many of his contemporaries believe he suffered a brain injury when he was attacked by an anti-Mormon mob. I don't put much stock in his recollection.

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I don't have any special knowledge, but Joseph didn't describe it that way, and with the unreliable nature of the accounts, the story just doesn't ring true to me.

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Of course you do. 


Ok so by referring to it as a "metaphor" are you saying that you don't take it as a literally true account of the Jaredites?  I've never heard a Mormon refer to anything in the BoM as anything but a literal factual account.

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Oh it does make sense to me.

But when I do that, it is because of my  inherent human failings.  That is not the case in the story of the Jaredites. 

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Where did you get your dates?

Revelation was written in 96 AD not 68.
John wrote the Epistles in 90 AD.

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Also, as I understand it, Joseph Smith was "visited" by Peter and Paul. If that is correct, then that right there would make the BoM a fake. The Bible plainly declares the dead don't know anything. There is no Biblical evidence the dead speak to anyone.

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Peter, James, and John visited Smith, and gave Smith the power of God. The, "Priesthood." The authority to lead Gods organization on the earth, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Mary was visited by an angel. She wasn't fake. The Bible isn't fake.

Angels attended on our Lord throughout His life on earth (Matt. 1:20; 2:13, 19; 4:11; 28:2–8; Luke 1:11–20, 26–30; 2:9–15; 22:43). Jesus often spoke of angels (Matt. 13:14–30, 37–41; 16:27; 18:10; 22:30; 24:36; Luke 15:10, etc.).

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

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A person who is a divine messenger is called an angel.

The Lord has power to call forth any person or persons from the dead, as he may desire to perform His work which would require their resurrection.




Jesus came back from the dead, and taught His gospel. He has the power to resurrect those who He chooses to resurrect. Matthew 27:50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The resurrection of Gods chosen is real. I have faith.

There is scriptural evidence that Jesus established a Church through Peter, James, and John, and they needed to restore that same Church in the "latter days" (last days)...

And there is plenty of scriptural evidence of the Lord using His messengers to perform His work for His Church... Angels.

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In that case, you better throw out the book of John and the Epistles of John as they are estimated to be written after Revelation.  Furthermore, the Bible as we know it wasn't compiled for at least another 100 years (some estimate another 200+ years).  In terms of good arguments against the Book of Mormon, that isn't one of them.  But, if anyone wants to go there they should start another thread.

Estimated dates:
Apocalypse - 68.
John - c. 85.
Epistles of John - 90-95

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I already did, backing up the Lord using Angels to do His work...




Are you saying the Lord did not include the resurrection in the scriptures?-?

Its in there.



Peter, James, and John were part of Christ's original Church. They had the authority to lead Christ's original Church. They gave that authority to Smith in the latter-days.



The Angel Gabriel communicated to Mary. Gabriel wasn't human, alive. Gabriel was an Angel. The ministry of Angels is not forbidden in the Bible.

The ministry of Christ started with the ministry of Angels.

No contradiction. Peter, James, and John were resurrected beings, doing Gods holy work when they communicated with Smith.

No contradiction.

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That date for Revelation is not the consensus of most scholars.

A date that early will be used by preterists and some partial preterists to show that every prophecy in the Bible occured with the razing of the Temple.

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Only full Preterist believe that every prophecy left Un completed was fulfilled in 70 ad.  Partial preterist believe that lots were, but there are still some waiting to be fulfilled.

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The date of Revelation is an absolutely interesting and extremely valid discussion on *early* Church history...

And there is not absolute consensus among Biblical scholars... With significant convincing evidence pointing to an earlier date...

"First, if the apostle John were indeed writing in AD 95—long after the destruction of the temple— it seems incredible that he would make no mention whatsoever of the most apocalyptic event in Jewish history—the demolition of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple at the hands of Titus."Link

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Ah, the argument from silence? Not exactly the strongest of evidence.

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When I was medevaced out of Iraq in 07, I was basically confined to a reclining chair for about a year or so while waiting to die according to my MD's.

Because my son was undergoing a faith crisis with the LDS church, I decided to research the background of the church and the Book of Mormon.  When you are researching any topic you want to go to the foundational events of that topic.  If the foundational events are false, then the rest of it doesn't matter.

I found this site    The old FARMS website now called the Maxwell Institute 


and read some 25 years worth of research on the Book of Mormon and the other foundational events of the Church.  There will be those who will discount
any of the publications since the Maxwell Institute is funded by Brigham Young University.

I particularly recommend reading the earlier publications that deal more specifically with the foundational events of the church.

As an example, were you aware that the Book of Mormon was translated over two months of specific effort while trying to farm and raise a family after working on it  intermittently for several years. That some 200 people claim to have seen the plates (covered for the most part), that there are descriptions of them (weight, size and so on) which are internally consistent.

I also obtained a copy of the original text  Book of Mormon (published by Yale University)

http://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300142181/book-mormon

and a copy of how it appeared prior to the 1920 revision (formatting changes only)

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Readers-Grant-Hardy/dp/025207341X

I found nothing in any of my readings that caused me any problems (including extensive reading of anti-mormon books) (You have to admire the Tanners tenacity
in opposing anything and eveything related to the Church)

The Maxwell Institute did reviews of most of the anti-mormon publications written at that time.

I found nothing in any of that reading that disturbed my faith, in fact it helped it grow.

I still continue to read new publications and studies being done on the Book of Mormon. 

As for my son, his faith crisis led to him and his wife leaving the Church and becoming devout atheists.

As was said a very long time ago, "You cannot argue a man into or out of the Church", so I don't bother trying to argue
with anyone about it either pro or con.

I do find it interesting that one thing has been consistent since the beginning of the Church, that those that leave it, then can't leave it alone.

They spend the rest of their days attacking it.

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Moses and Elias appeared and conversed with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Peter saw them wanted to build a tabernacle, or monument marking the occasion.


This account appears in Matthew 17, and in Mark 9.


At that point in time, Moses and Elias were both "dead", in terms of the world.

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I know The Book of Mormon is true.

First I think you need to figure out "Is it good?". Not in a story book good way but in a does it's teachings lead men to good? 
Does it's teachings bring you closer to Christ and your knowledge of His works? 
Do you understand His plan for us after reading it and know better how to follow His path through the testimonies shared in there?
If it is good is it of God? 
Ask Him for confirmation.

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We have in the Bible record the account of Elijah being translated without seeing death. On the Mount of Transfiguration he represented the people in the last day who will be translated without seeing death.

We also have the record of Moses, in his old age, walking by himself up mount Pisgah where he could look upon the promised land, but was not allowed to enter because he sinned. That sin was smoting the rock twice. There he died and was buried by the Angels because God did not want the Hebrews to make his place of death a place of worship, as they murmured against him, and many hated him while he lived, yet they would have worshipped his burial place had they know where it was.

We also know that Christ Himself contended with Satan for the body of Moses. Christ won and Moses was resurrected and on the Mount of Tranfiguration he represents all the righteous who go to the grave in the knowledge of and faith in Christ who will be resurrected on the last day.

Elijah and Moses may have been dead to the world, but they are as surely alive today as we are.

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That date for Revelation is not the consensus of most scholars.

A date that early will be used by preterists and some partial preterists to show that every prophecy in the Bible occured with the razing of the Temple.

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Revelation 22:18–19

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book

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Not always true. Neither myself nor any of my 7 siblings are a part of the church as adults, despite being raised by extremely devout parents.  None of us have ever smack talked the LDS church. Why would we?  I am an atheist, but willingly admit that the LDS “system” is a pretty good way to raise successful people.

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In the original Church of Jesus Christ, Peter, James, and John had the authority to lead the Church, produce revelations, and produce scripture.

They were Apostles.

That same Church was restored to the earth through Smith.




There is Biblical evidence that resurrection is possible, through Christ.

They were needed again to restore Christs Church in the "Latter-Days."

Christ has the power to save a man on the cross. Christ has the power to do whatever He wants to progress His Gospel and His Church... All that is in the Bible.




You don't understand the power of Christ.

And the importance of restoring His Church in the last days.

It happened. I have faith that it happened.



It was used as an example that Christ has the power to resurrect. Christ has the power to save a man from sin on the cross. Christ has the power to resurrect.

Peter, James, and John were sent by God to restore Christ's Church on the earth again... With God and Christ, all things are possible.

I have faith.

Might sound impossible. Might not fit the narrative taught in other Churches. Miracles and revelation and Gods leaders on this earth ceased at some point is the narrative taught in other churches. But God restoring the Church of  Jesus Christ in the last-days through Angels and heavenly messengers is what I know is the truth.

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Given that LDS believe that Smith was visited by Jesus Christ as well, why would Christ send "messengers" to restore his church?  Why not do it himself?  Seems very strange to me.  "Horses mouth" and all that. . .

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Christ has often sent angels as messengers for many of His holy purposes. And He has performed some "tasks" Himself. 

The angel that Elisha asked to show the vision to the youth.

An angel closing the mouths of the lion den. 

The fourth angel in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. 

Why did Christ not perform all these things himself? 

I'm content to believe that Christ knows who should perform which event and which of these will offer the greatest opportunities for man to develop faith.