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Posted: 8/5/2010 9:51:22 AM EDT
Thank you in advance. -M60
Link Posted: 8/5/2010 9:57:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2010 9:58:09 AM EDT
Depends. Old or new testament?
Link Posted: 8/5/2010 10:03:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2010 10:05:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jdubya87:
Depends. Old or new testament?


No difference. In the OT two unmarried people who had sex were basically married in God's eyes.

In the NT, marriage is touted as the "cure" for immoral sex, pre-marital sex being classifeied within immoral sex.
Link Posted: 8/6/2010 6:39:32 PM EDT
Look at 1 Corinthians 6 start at verse 12

To be honest it has been the biggest mistake I have made. If you are trying to decide to or not, fight your flesh you will be happier in the long run.

"All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."
Link Posted: 8/6/2010 9:20:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MRW:
Sex before marriage is called fornication, sex with someone besides your spouse after marriage is adultery. Both are forbidden, for good reason.

My wife and I waited until we were married and have been faithful ever since. The physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual destruction we see of those around us who chose poorly serves to remind us that we continue to make the right choice. Plus the trust and stability we have is much more of a blessing than simply avoiding any negative consequences.

marriage works best when it's done right, and there is no sorrow in it


This
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 11:20:46 AM EDT
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

1 Cor. 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Cor. 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but Elohim shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for Yahweh; and Yahweh for the body.

1 Cor. 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

There are a bunch more, but this one sums it up very clearly:

Galatians 5:19-21: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

kind of hard to justify sex outside of marriage and call yourself a Christian...
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 11:56:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2010 12:01:22 PM EDT by SAE]
Originally Posted By M60forever:
Thank you in advance. -M60


It says that if you engage in a relationship based on this, sex outside of marrage, that there will likley be some trust issues based upon this latter on.

Especially if that latter on involves marrage now with one spouse having to trust the other based on prior personal sexual experiances.

Acknowleged or not, it will always be there to be personally dealt with, again, especially when one member might become jealous of another for whatever reason during a marrage.

Real or even many times imagined because marrage by all accounts according to God's purpose and training for a man or a woman is putting marrage first, and also foremost marrage is to be of a selfless nature and pure in all of It's essences, putting one toward another in marrage first.

And not by and in the second degree after a Holy Union takes place.

This is usually the place where problems and issues begin.

In the second place.


Thanks,

SAE

Link Posted: 8/7/2010 11:59:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FAB-10_Guy:
Originally Posted By MRW:
Sex before marriage is called fornication, sex with someone besides your spouse after marriage is adultery. Both are forbidden, for good reason.

My wife and I waited until we were married and have been faithful ever since. The physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual destruction we see of those around us who chose poorly serves to remind us that we continue to make the right choice. Plus the trust and stability we have is much more of a blessing than simply avoiding any negative consequences.

marriage works best when it's done right, and there is no sorrow in it


This


This x 2
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 12:20:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SAE:

It says that if you engage in a relationship based on this, sex outside of marriage, that there will likely be some trust issues based upon this latter on.

Especially if that latter on involves marriage now with one spouse having to trust the other based on prior personal sexual experiences.

Acknowledged or not, it will always be there to be personally dealt with, again, especially when one member might become jealous of another for whatever reason during a marriage.

Real or even many times imagined because marriage by all accounts according to God's purpose and training for a man or a woman is putting marriage first, and also foremost marriage is to be of a selfless nature and pure in all of It's essences, putting one toward another in marriage first.

And not by and in the second degree after a Holy Union takes place.

This is usually the place where problems and issues begin.

In the second place.


Thanks,

SAE


This. Please take it from someone who has just gone through this (me) please please stay away.
Send me a private message if you want more details and info. I am putting myself out there so nobody who is border line will go through what I have because of my own actions.


Seek God on this issue and I am sure He will make it clear to you.
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 12:51:22 PM EDT
I have been divorced for 7yrs and have only been a christian 1.5yrs. My fiance and I are both waiting till we get married. Though neither one of us are virgins, we are waiting to fulfill God's command and so we will have something to look forward to.
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 12:55:16 PM EDT
It says don't do it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 7:53:21 AM EDT
Yea, see, it used to be that sex provided access to sex, and now marriage provides access to celibacy.

Pretty damn funny if it wasn't so sad.
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 8:08:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OhioLibertarian:
Yea, see, it used to be that sex provided access to sex, and now marriage provides access to celibacy.

Pretty damn funny if it wasn't so sad.


That's pretty unbiblical.
Read 1 Corinthians 7:2-5
A spouse isn't allowed to withhold from the other spouse unless it's been agreed on by both parties. Think about how many marriages are ruined because the wife withholds sex. While it doesn't excuse a partner's cheating, it's pretty obvious that humans have needs. If the wife decides not to care for her husband, bad things will happen.

Link Posted: 8/10/2010 8:13:55 AM EDT
Doesn't say it's explicitly wrong. I prayed on this for months and I finally had sex with my girlfriend recently. I am glad I did, nothing bad came from it, and my relationship with Jehovah is just as good.

Link Posted: 8/10/2010 8:22:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bob200587:
Doesn't say it's explicitly wrong. I prayed on this for months and I finally had sex with my girlfriend recently. I am glad I did, nothing bad came from it, and my relationship with Jehovah is just as good.



You can pray all you want. Doesn't make something wrong good just because you prayed about it.

And I'd argue that it DOES say it's explicitly wrong.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."


Do what you want, just don't make excuses for it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 8:53:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By bob200587:
Doesn't say it's explicitly wrong. I prayed on this for months and I finally had sex with my girlfriend recently. I am glad I did, nothing bad came from it, and my relationship with Jehovah is just as good.



You can pray all you want. Doesn't make something wrong good just because you prayed about it.

And I'd argue that it DOES say it's explicitly wrong.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."


Do what you want, just don't make excuses for it.


You can say what you want and interpret passages as you will...I had open and in depth two way communication with Jehovah on this subject and came to the conclusion that it is not wrong for me at this time in this situation. I am doing no evil in this matter.
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 12:41:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bob200587:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By bob200587:
Doesn't say it's explicitly wrong. I prayed on this for months and I finally had sex with my girlfriend recently. I am glad I did, nothing bad came from it, and my relationship with Jehovah is just as good.



You can pray all you want. Doesn't make something wrong good just because you prayed about it.

And I'd argue that it DOES say it's explicitly wrong.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."


Do what you want, just don't make excuses for it.


You can say what you want and interpret passages as you will...I had open and in depth two way communication with Jehovah on this subject and came to the conclusion that it is not wrong for me at this time in this situation. I am doing no evil in this matter.


Well, I have an exclusive Red Phone line direct to Jehovah and he said send me all your dollars in small unmarked bills

/sarcasm.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 1:59:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OhioLibertarian:
Originally Posted By bob200587:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By bob200587:
Doesn't say it's explicitly wrong. I prayed on this for months and I finally had sex with my girlfriend recently. I am glad I did, nothing bad came from it, and my relationship with Jehovah is just as good.



You can pray all you want. Doesn't make something wrong good just because you prayed about it.

And I'd argue that it DOES say it's explicitly wrong.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."


Do what you want, just don't make excuses for it.


You can say what you want and interpret passages as you will...I had open and in depth two way communication with Jehovah on this subject and came to the conclusion that it is not wrong for me at this time in this situation. I am doing no evil in this matter.


Well, I have an exclusive Red Phone line direct to Jehovah and he said send me all your dollars in small unmarked bills

/sarcasm.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


IF that were the case, you wouldn't be getting much.

Link Posted: 8/10/2010 4:27:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bob200587:

You can say what you want and interpret passages as you will...I had open and in depth two way communication with Jehovah on this subject and came to the conclusion that it is not wrong for me at this time in this situation. I am doing no evil in this matter.

If your "two way communication" with Jehovah contradicts what the Bible very clearly and explicitly states multiple times, then you weren't conversing with God. You were conversing either with your hormones or with a demon (and I'm not joking about the demon).

Galatians 5:19-21 –– Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:29-32 –– Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness: full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity: whisperers, detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, foolish, dissolute: without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 4:31:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2010 4:33:58 PM EDT by ziarifleman]
JESUS LOVES ME SO IT'S ALL RIGHT!!

Christian license...
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 4:33:32 PM EDT
It's a sin.....
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 5:09:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By loonybin:

Originally Posted By bob200587:

You can say what you want and interpret passages as you will...I had open and in depth two way communication with Jehovah on this subject and came to the conclusion that it is not wrong for me at this time in this situation. I am doing no evil in this matter.

If your "two way communication" with Jehovah contradicts what the Bible very clearly and explicitly states multiple times, then you weren't conversing with God. You were conversing either with your hormones or with a demon (and I'm not joking about the demon).

Galatians 5:19-21 –– Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:29-32 –– Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness: full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity: whisperers, detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, foolish, dissolute: without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.


Just because you choose to believe that all fornication is wrong doesn't make it so. Pre-marital sex between a man and a woman in a relationship is not clearly or explicitly condemned in the Bible. There is no clear Scriptural insistence that all sexual intercourse be only between married couples.

You can do your own research on translations and "Porneia", and other sexuality related topics in religion. I've come to my conclusions and they happen to be contrary to what most fundamentalists believe, but I know what's right and what's wrong and what the Bible, and the Lord says to me.

I do not appreciate your judgment or the suggestion that I, as a Christian, washed in the blood, filled with the holy spirit could be possessed by a demon.

I'm done here.

Link Posted: 8/10/2010 5:17:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bob200587:


I'm done here.


Good, go away.
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 5:52:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2010 2:04:35 AM EDT


"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts. Prov 21:2"

Key words: man-women-wife-one flesh.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.Gen 2:24


And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mat 19:14-1

heterosexual fornication is sin just as homosexuality...both disregard Gods plan for family, commitment and purity.
But the good news is that no sexual impurity is beyond the forgiveness of God through Jesus Christ.
That said, when you encounter Jesus you may struggle and fall into sin but will never enjoy living in it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 7:51:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2010 7:57:26 AM EDT by beready]
removed
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 1:21:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2010 1:53:17 PM EDT by SAE]
Originally Posted By bob200587:
Doesn't say it's explicitly wrong. I prayed on this for months and I finally had sex with my girlfriend recently. I am glad I did, nothing bad came from it, and my relationship with Jehovah is just as good.



I'm sorry that you feel this way about engaging into a pre-marital sexual relationship with someone else, especially someone who you may have some long range plans concerning marrage latter and so forth.

I do not say that what you and your girlfriend is wrong and against the grain of God's word, or the Bible, because by stating this that I am doing so because I have never personally done the same thing in the past myself, because as a matter of fact I have many times and with more than one person by only doing this once.

However whatever it is that I have done in the past that is considered to be lawless behavior according to the Bible, which is now what I consider to be the ultimate standard of God's truth pertaining to all men and women or the Bible says that fornicating with another person is not right and is not acceptable to God at anytime.

This kind of behavior is not righteous behavior as far as God or His word is concerned, and is not now or ever has been.

It is this Bible that is quite clear and fully explainitory concerning It's entire scope and nature about how God feels about anyone who willfully engages into a outside of marrage or before a Holy Matramonial relationship, The Union, that is identified in the Bible as the sin of fornication and is considered by God to be sexual behavior which He(God) has deemed and judged according to His word to be behavior which is as I stated before unlawful and also according to spiritual law a punishable offense however it is the God sees fit to show a person or persons who have been engaged in such activity.

It is also true that any lawless behavior toward God's Crown will still be applicable and legally binding to anyone without Christ, and a repentive heart, even if you were to never be aware of such a judgement in your own life concerning the sin of fornication or any other.

These that are willfully commited in your own life, or even the life of any one else, this still does not mean that at either God's Judgement from His White Throne or even Jesus Christ Himself judging the ones who physically died on earth in Christ in order to have all of their works judged as to a reward or even loss of a God given reward as each and every thing that a man or woman has done while here on planet earth will be tested and by fire according to what the Spirit of God will either burn up, or what is to be refined so that it will be recognized as an incorrupt substance and then labeled as such for everyone to see in God's Kingdom latter on as just and righteous before God and everyone else who has attained eternal life at anytime.

These acts of acceptance or in the former case of God's,(Jehovah's) White Throne judgement, judging the ones who have died without Christ and without reprieve concerning being commited eternally into a literal lake of fire(the second death for corrupt acts of iniquity and rebellion towards (God) will be accomplished according to what they have done in life without Jesus Christ.

However, those others or all who have washed their garments, or lives due to the Blood of Jesus Christ, who died on a cross according to the works each man or woman has done, the sinful acts of fornication will be dealt with, by God, at that time with no exeptions and no exclusions.

God is a God, a good and righteous God who does not respect people for what they don't know because they have not for whatever reason not studied His word enough according to God's will to be approved first by their ownselves as being competant enough concerning His(God's) word, or the Bible not to make a statement or statements concerning such things as fornication or any other type of sin or evil behavior that God Himself has commanded people not to commit and for good and valid reasons.

Especially in my humble opinion and also according to what the Bible has to say about it, such a statement about it(fornication) the way that you have done in a pubic forum such as this that might or could lead someone not informed about the degrading sin of fornication to commit it with another, or others for any reason, or reasons whatsoever is totally in my opinion out of order on all fronts concerning righteous and upright behavior as God has seen it from the beginning concerning mankind.

This too is lawless behavior and also in my opinion out-right rebellion towards Him.

Such thinking that this act which stands in stark error as lawless behavior, and is a sinful act that is considered by God Almighty, Himself to be unacceptable behavior first toward honoring Him, but also not honoring what the Bible,(ie, the Word;Jesus Christ ,The Husbandman), has to say about a man or woman remaining pure away from sexual behavior before marrage and for good and valid reasons, again according to God's word, or the Bible, and is totally out of order and should be looked upon by any God fearing or reverancing individual, knowledgable concerning God's word especially in this area, would view this subject in the same way, I would think because of that personal commitment and reverance towards God through Jesus Christ also.

Directly!

It is also the gospel truth that God according to His ways which are higher than our own honorably and graciously respects and also fully rewards individuals who first accept Him in the form of Jesus Christ, a Savior, the only Savior, because of what Jesus Himself said and it is this:I AM the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father(ie.Jehovah God;Yaweh) exept through Me.

I am also not trying to put you down at this time concerning anything.

I am however attempting to show you, or anyone else that sin is sin, and that oit is only a man or woman who will wink at it or tell or even show someone else that sin on any level might not be such a big deal as the Bible points out in many places that this thing called sin,concerning handling it as if it were acceptable behavior before God Almighty , is a very dangerous way to find out what is simply just not true concerning God first who is Holy, but mankind second, who God has set some of these called by His Name, or Jesus Christ aside to be holy also.

According to His will and according to a person's particular purpose toward Him also.

And in this, and through this fornication or any other willfully commited sin without repentance has no place or dominion through God's Covenant with anyone.

Not now, or at any other time.

And time is running short.

Consider carefully the words that proceed out of your own mouth.

The Bible says that a person's words can bring forth many blessings and even many cursings according to what a person has to say through a particular mindset or self-serving attitude away and far removed from his Creator.

This is the curse that lives as a person lives.

Or dies.

Thanks,

SAE



Link Posted: 8/12/2010 2:55:53 PM EDT
Even though there is redemption for sinners....there is always a cost to sin.

Who is my daddy?

the end there of is death
Link Posted: 8/21/2010 9:21:53 AM EDT
Its questions like this that turned me into an athiest. I cant have sex before marriage because the bible says so yet the bible also says if my bride isnt a virgin on our wedding night I can kill her. It says if I work on the sabbath I am supposed to be killed myself. Who gets to pick and choose which of these biblical laws are still valid and which are out dated.
Link Posted: 8/21/2010 10:48:55 AM EDT
Baxsom, you hit it right, there are verses in the OT and NT to support most any position. As far as the NT, it often goes back to the T*r*h, but without understanding Hebrew (or Aramaic), and the culture at the time, it can be interpeted many ways. Marraige as you are talking is a relatively new creation, since the 11th century. Prior to that relationships had many forms, such as living together, polygamy, and others. The Church codified it then. The Chief Rabbi of Europe followed it a bit later, but when he banned polygamy from Jews, it was for the end of that century. The reason was there was tension and discrimination against the Jews for the practice of polygamy. The Jews got used to it and maintained monogamy for the most part.

Also grammaticlly there are no plurals in Hebrew, you determine it by the context, as ancient Hebrew the vowels were not used. The Hebrew of today is only a little over a century old. So wife could also be wives. As for quoting Paul, he was known for his treatment of women as second class, must have been a Saducee. Jesus gave women an equal position in life. Especially his treatment of Mary, who there was some bad feelings with the other disciples as to her high position. The book of Galations was written against my ancestors, the Celts. Celts practiced monogamy, polygamy and whatever, they did not butt into others lives like some people do.

When you talk about fornication, G*d had issues with sex as a religious practice. The pagan beliefs used sex as part of their faith. Mostly with the involvement of the fertility rights. G*d is concerned with his worship, not being diluted by homage to other deities. Same as the mixing of meat and milk. The boiling of a calf in the milk of it's mother, besides being cruel, was part of a pagan practice, a fertility rite.

If you want to talk adultry, that is not sex with another woman than your spouse. It is sex with the the spouse of another man, usually without his consent. The Commandment is is though shall not commit adultry, it is thou shall not covent they neighbor's wife. Remember that at the time Jews listed women as second class, as property. The taking of another man's wife (property), often would mean swords were drawn. Not a good thing for the community. Contary to popular belief Jews of the past unlike many today....kicked butt, not lawsuits. The concept of wealth for a wrong is actually Viking. Also in the T*r*h if your brother dies, you are to take his wife as your own. That would be G*d sanctioned polygamy.
Link Posted: 8/27/2010 5:06:06 PM EDT
I thoroughly enjoyed your reply.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 10:14:57 AM EDT
sex before marriage is wrong. it was for me and my now wife before we got married. even with a condom my wife was pregnant at 15 i was 17. we waited 2years after our son was born before getting married.We stopped having sex after she became pregnant and waited till we got married. that was the best decision allthough sometimes very hard that we have ever made. even though we had a son our wedding night was the most exhilerating experience of my life and now 12 years later we have a very very haelthy relationship both sexually and emotionally. I thank god every day for giving me my wife and son. although i regret haveing premarital sex now. I see that it was wrong no matter how you lokk at it. god has blessed me in more ways than i can count. please listen to me if you truly love this woman wait and on that special night after youve watched the woman of your dreams walk down that isle you will agree that it was more than worth the wait.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:39:05 AM EDT
Thank you. I have found my answer.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:52:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind:
Baxsom, you hit it right, there are verses in the OT and NT to support most any position. As far as the NT, it often goes back to the T*r*h, but without understanding Hebrew (or Aramaic), and the culture at the time, it can be interpeted many ways. Marraige as you are talking is a relatively new creation, since the 11th century. Prior to that relationships had many forms, such as living together, polygamy, and others. The Church codified it then. The Chief Rabbi of Europe followed it a bit later, but when he banned polygamy from Jews, it was for the end of that century. The reason was there was tension and discrimination against the Jews for the practice of polygamy. The Jews got used to it and maintained monogamy for the most part.

Also grammaticlly there are no plurals in Hebrew, you determine it by the context, as ancient Hebrew the vowels were not used. The Hebrew of today is only a little over a century old. So wife could also be wives. As for quoting Paul, he was known for his treatment of women as second class, must have been a Saducee. Jesus gave women an equal position in life. Especially his treatment of Mary, who there was some bad feelings with the other disciples as to her high position. The book of Galations was written against my ancestors, the Celts. Celts practiced monogamy, polygamy and whatever, they did not butt into others lives like some people do.

When you talk about fornication, G*d had issues with sex as a religious practice. The pagan beliefs used sex as part of their faith. Mostly with the involvement of the fertility rights. G*d is concerned with his worship, not being diluted by homage to other deities. Same as the mixing of meat and milk. The boiling of a calf in the milk of it's mother, besides being cruel, was part of a pagan practice, a fertility rite.

If you want to talk adultry, that is not sex with another woman than your spouse. It is sex with the the spouse of another man, usually without his consent. The Commandment is is though shall not commit adultry, it is thou shall not covent they neighbor's wife. Remember that at the time Jews listed women as second class, as property. The taking of another man's wife (property), often would mean swords were drawn. Not a good thing for the community. Contary to popular belief Jews of the past unlike many today....kicked butt, not lawsuits. The concept of wealth for a wrong is actually Viking. Also in the T*r*h if your brother dies, you are to take his wife as your own. That would be G*d sanctioned polygamy.


You Sir, understand scripture. I find it disturbing as a Christian that many tend to only look to specific parts of the NT for their understanding of the Christian faith. I do my best to understand the context of scriptural teaching so that i may have understanding of G_d's word, without context, how can anyone know what the lesson is in a text that is thousands of years old and been translated from its original language. The Bible should be studied in its entirety; that means OLD and NEW testaments! The Bible is G_d's roadmap for humans to follow throughout their lives for physical, mental AND SPIRITUAL health and salvation. Can one use a map without knowing what the symbols mean or with half of it missing or without a concept of scale?

That being said; pre-martial sex, masturbation, homosexuality and sinning in general can and will divert you from the roadmap that G_d has provided. If you get too far of course, you will be lost... perhaps fro eternity.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 11:27:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 11:29:16 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By M60forever:
Thank you in advance. -M60
The Biblical 'rules' on sex are pretty simple:

- Not before marriage
- Not with the same sex as yourself, ever.
- No adultery (yes, this includes 'two at the same time', even if one is your spouse)
- Husband and wife are not supposed to 'deny themselves' to each other....

That's it. A husband and wife can do anything they wish together, and not violate Biblical teachings on sex...

Under the OT law, fornication with a woman who wasn't engaged was a 'minor' sin, eg not a capital offense (rape, or fornication with an engaged or married woman was capital). A fine was owed, and the offenders were to be married with no possibility of divorce.

The New Testament, being a personal code of conduct rather than the criminal laws for a nation, does away with any 'difference' in sins - all sins are equal in the eyes of God (contrary to those who, for example, think homosexuality is a 'greater' sin than fornication) - and 'sexual immorality' is explicitly mentioned as sin.


Link Posted: 9/7/2010 11:38:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 11:38:54 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By TheWind:

If you want to talk adultry, that is not sex with another woman than your spouse. It is sex with the the spouse of another man, usually without his consent. The Commandment is is though shall not commit adultry, it is thou shall not covent they neighbor's wife.

WRONG.

'Thou shalt not commit adultery' is a separate commandment (#6) from 'Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's house, or his wife' (#9).


The concept of wealth for a wrong is actually Viking.

No, you'll find it in the Bible, too (OT)...

For example, if a man committed fornication with a virgin not promised to another man, there was a fine to be paid to her father (the remaining portion of the punishment was marriage without possibility of divorce). Various other crimes had fines attached, although most involved capital or corporal punishment.


Link Posted: 9/8/2010 12:22:41 PM EDT
Splitting hairs, and committing adultry is commandment 7, not 6, 6 is modified commandments from two christian groups, that is not the the same as Moshe received from G*D. 9 is false witness and 10 is all about coveting, whether his wife or ass, in the world of the OT...they were about the same, as for the roots of the 10 Commandments, they come from the Egyptian Hyschos...the actual forebears of the Hebrews.
Now going back to adultry...., if I have a wife and have sex with another woman without her consent, that is adultry. If my wife accepts her into the household, she can stay as a second wife. That is called polygamy, and if you read the teachings of Jesus, you will find nothing he says against polygamy. He was a Jew and it was a very common practice. It is still legal in Israel, if you immigrate there from a country that permits it. Most Islamic countries do. For get when he uses the term wife, wife/wives is the same in Hebrew, there are no plurals.
As for the wedding ceremony, it was an option at the time. In the US, we had common law marriages to give legal status to the wife, without the sake of a formal ceremony. It was only stopped less than a century ago.
Now the cultures that gave us monogamy were the Romans and the Greeks, they were both monogamus....they also practiced homosexuality and had affairs as common practice....so which do you want?
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 1:36:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 1:53:07 PM EDT by SAE]
Whether one feels like sex is alright outside of God's best for a man, or a woman, is really not the issue here as far as I can see on this side of the issue which includes among some other things, abstaining from any sexual behaviors before marriage. What is most important here is how God Almighty sees it. First off, if a person claims to be a Christian, as a Christian we all have certain obligations to up-hold concening being part of God's Kingdom as a member of the body of Jesus Christ, if this has been our decision to have pre-marital sexual relations with someone else. So then, in accepting this calling, we have also been called on, naturally, as well as super-naturally to make some additions in our own lives, usually at the expense of leaving some things off over time and for good. Now, if one considers one's self as what the Bible calls,''The sons of light,'' to be in effect and apparant in our own life, and through our own personal actions, then maybe a closer examination should take place for us now as to what being a true and committed,''son of light,'' or born-again believer is really all about.

Now we know that many people, some who may even profess to be Christians or even Jews might somehow attempt to naturally reason out a reason, or reasons, why he or she might be able to carry out the act of fornication with another outside of the Holy institution of marrage, and that somehow through approaching and concerning this issue of sex between unmarried individuals through a purly carnal type mindset is not such a bad thing at all. And moreover, there are even some people who consider themselves to be,''religious,'' after some fashion who believe that even,''God,'' Himself winks so to speak, or is tolorant of fornication between unmarried people to the point of this unlawful act being one of the lesser of two evils, when one might talk about how it is that an umarried person might relieve themselves periodically concerning sexual frustrations and what to do about them.

However, make no mistake about this issue.

There are many reasons that unwed couples should stay totally abstainant concerning a sexual relationship outside of marrage or anyone else either.

If a person is quite serious about their Christian walk, here might be just a couplke of items that a born-again believer might put under his, or her, own consideration before making a decision to have sex with another outside of a marital relationship.

First off, as being a Christian, in good or righteous standing in the Kingdom of God, one must know what the Scriptures, or what it is that the complete Bible has to say about many issues, sex outside of marrage included. Did you know that just accepting Jesus Christ into your personal life is supposed to elevate you to a place of honor and glory in Christ Jesus with a defined code of conduct that is to be adhered to at all times?

I mean, once you accept Jesus Christ into your life then who are you really?

Also, did you know that when Jesus Christ,one hundred percent God, but yet one hundred percent man, fully, walked in His ministry down here on this earth, that he was tempted to have sexual relationships with women yet never did? The Bible says that He was tempted just like the rest of us have been, and will continue to be but, Jesus Christ did not sin or give into His temporary physical nature just as we too are spirit first, and then flesh afterward.

I know that this revelation from God may be difficult for some here to believe , but if Jesus Christ, the Messiah of all of mankind would have slept with just one woman over the course of His physical lifetime, then you and I would never had the chance at being saved by God's grace because the Devil, or sin would have entered into Jesus Christ's mind,will, and emotions at that time.

During His earthly ministry if Jesus Christ just sinned one time, just once, you and I would all right now be looking at eternal damnation through God, the Father's end time Judgement because Jesus Christ would have knowingly, and willingly dis-qualified Himself from being mankind's perfect sacrifice as He had to be.

Perfect, without spot or blemish with no equal or substitute.

And even if that were not enough to consider, what about this honor, with integrety, through God's own justice that we are supposed to whole-heartedly and graciously display in love toward other people?

How is it that we could ever effectivly witness the absolute truth concerning Jesus Christ and what He has done for us if we go around, even one time sleeping with another, especially if that person doesn't know Christ at all?

So, what do you do?

Deny that Jesus Christ is your personal Lord, and Savior, or put Him down your list of personal priorities to be considered possibly more important latter because having unauthorized pre-marirital sex with some other person more than likely with a simialar carnal minset as yourself, is more fulfilling than your personal walk with the Lord of Hosts?

If this is so then how would one personally percieve how it is that God, feels about this?

God carried each and every one of us, spiritually, before the time that we were ever born into this physical world so that you and I would be birthed spiritually at Calvary on a cross of shame.

Why would you by your own desires of the flesh and for some momentary gratification, hang Jesus back up on that cursed tree as a public spectical to be scorned, and mocked all over again?

Because when you do anything in the dark as a ,''Son of Light,'' as the Bible calls you, and me,these things such as fornication, or any other sin will definitely come into the light to be examaned by many latter on.

God is in the business of representing His righteousness throughout eternity.

What are your intentions concerning Him?

Thanks,

SAE
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 1:43:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M60forever:
Thank you in advance. -M60


Yours is pretty much an illogical question, at least in regards to the old testament. In Abraham's day, sex WAS marriage. When those old testament guys "took" a wife, it pretty much meant they took her into the tent and banged her. After that they were married.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 2:43:29 PM EDT
We have a winner, well said Bladeswitcher!
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 10:29:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 10:32:18 AM EDT by SAE]
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Link Posted: 9/11/2010 11:19:28 AM EDT
Because when you do anything in the dark as a ,''Son of Light,'' as the Bible calls you, and me,these things such as fornication, or any other sin will definitely come into the light to be examaned by many latter on.


I am curious to your use of Sons of Light? To what I understand, The Sons (or Daughters) of light referes to the Esscenes. It is in the Jewish Tradition. Jesus used much from the doctorine of the Esscenes. This is where the Celtic monastery life comes from, the seperation of the genders in an Esscene community. I don;t understand you correlation to sex. In the time frame of the First Century CE, you took a wife, quite litterally, and when you had sex with her you created the husband-wife bond. weddings were held less often. You can't apply modern concepts to life in the First century. In that time, you were often shackled to a few miles from where you were born. The taking of a wife often led to a raid on another community to take wives from them. From the sstandpoint of the gene pool that is a good thing. You would have too many cousins procreating with cousins otherwise and that is forbidden by the T*r*h
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 12:58:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 12:59:54 PM EDT by SAE]
Originally Posted By TheWind:
Because when you do anything in the dark as a ,''Son of Light,'' as the Bible calls you, and me,these things such as fornication, or any other sin will definitely come into the light to be examaned by many latter on.


I am curious to your use of Sons of Light? To what I understand, The Sons (or Daughters) of light referes to the Esscenes. It is in the Jewish Tradition. Jesus used much from the doctorine of the Esscenes. This is where the Celtic monastery life comes from, the seperation of the genders in an Esscene community. I don;t understand you correlation to sex. In the time frame of the First Century CE, you took a wife, quite litterally, and when you had sex with her you created the husband-wife bond. weddings were held less often. You can't apply modern concepts to life in the First century. In that time, you were often shackled to a few miles from where you were born. The taking of a wife often led to a raid on another community to take wives from them. From the sstandpoint of the gene pool that is a good thing. You would have too many cousins procreating with cousins otherwise and that is forbidden by the T*r*h


''This is the message we have heard from Jesus and now declare to you. God is light, and there is no darkness in Him at all. So we are lying if we say that we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; then we are not practicing or telling the truth.But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin, and unrighteouness.

But if we claim that we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins before Him, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and wicked behavior.

So, if we claim that we have not sinned, and have not fallen short of God's glory in our own lives, then at that point we are calling God a liar and personally showing Him, that His word has no place in our hearts.''

1st John;Chapter 1/5-10

Thanks,

SAE

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 4:10:39 PM EDT
I have reread that passage, there is nothing there to talk about marriage, sex, polygamy or monogamy?
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