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Posted: 2/14/2006 6:46:37 PM EDT
Hello folks. I worked out a trade with a buddy of mine for his 85 gmc short wide truck. Body is straight however the stock 350 is trash. I want a lowered, extremely fast street truck. So my plans are this

I already have a 350 4 bolt main block thats been punched out .030 over
I plan on using an eagle 4340 forged steel crank (3.75" stroke...making this a 383 stroker)
Forged aluminum H-beam rods
JE forged low compression blower pistons
Comp cams retro fit hydraulic roller cam and lifters(probably somewhere around .550 lift)
210cc race ready AFR heads
and to top it off a 6-71 or 8-71 roots style blower and 200 hp kit made by NOS for blown applications
This power is going through the stock turbo 400 tranny that im having rebuilt and then down to 12 bolt posi trac with 3.73. Also going to put a B&M 3500 rpm stall converter
This thing is getting complete MSD ignition,hooker headers, electric fans,electric fuel pump, bigger aluminum radiator, 7 quart oil pan, and transmission cooler. Not sure on carbs yet...maybe one big one or 2 smaller ones? they will probably be holleys though.

What kind of hp/torque would you guesstimate this truck will put running 6-8 pounds of boost?
And finally do you think this truck will be able to be driven on the street? I work out of town and only come in on the weekends or every other weekend and dont need the truck as a daily driver...however i want to have without a doubt the fastest truck in town and would like to take it to the strip every once in awhile. so what say ye? can it be done....or am i wasting an insane amount of money on something that will never be that cool or that fast?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:55:41 PM EDT
Not to rain on your parade. But have you ever messed with a blown engine? It's a lot of work especially when you throw nitrous into the mix.

Nitrous raises cylinder pressure, blowers raise pressures. Blowers cram stadium sized amounts of fuel/air mix into an engine that naturally would pull only a house full of air/fuel mix in. That is an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

If you have, cool you already know this. But just wanted to forewarn you in case you haven't. My dad ran an 8-71 roots type on a 468 years ago and it was a lot of work to get everything set up right. Hate to see someone grenade an engine and waste that much money.

Good luck tho, sounds like it would be pretty quick.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:01:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 7:03:54 PM EDT by BullDogger]
I have never owned a blown motor. However i have been reading up on them for the last couple months and it seems really that a blower is the only way for me to get the crazy amounts of power i want. My buddy who is doing the building part of this for me graduated from UTI and him,his father, and his grandfather all do the dirt track thing and have a huge network of friends and family for advice and technical help. The last thing i want to do is grenade a $10,000+ dollar motor. I was hoping if i dont skimp on use high quality forged everything i shouldnt have this problem. Not trying to build a motor to turn 7,000 rpm. maybe 5,500 or so.


oh yeah... blowers force craploads of fuel and air into the motor which is why im aiming at the AFR 210's....at right at $1,500 a set they better move earthloads of air...lol
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:51:15 PM EDT
If it was me, I'd go with an LS based forged 402 with a procharger, and forget the spray. Tons of benifits. But that's just me.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:09:45 PM EDT
I know there is obvious benefits to a larger displacement motor....only problem is i got the block and some of the parts for this current build already
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:35:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:09:04 PM EDT
Do you see any obvious weakness with the parts i have listed? Any areas that need to be improved on before i buy the parts and get everything put together? Is there much of a strength difference between aluminum and steel connecting rods?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:27:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BullDogger:
Do you see any obvious weakness with the parts i have listed? Any areas that need to be improved on before i buy the parts and get everything put together? Is there much of a strength difference between aluminum and steel connecting rods?



Depending on what steel rods and what aluminum rods yes. Main reason for going to aluminum is weight savings. Less reciprocating mass = higher rpms and less resistance/drag on the engine thus making it more efficient thus making some extra power.

The strength determination is whether they are h-beam, i-beam and what type of blends they are cut from.

I would seriously get some books on blowing engines or videos. Something. Superchargers can be quite deadly if they decide to come apart. Not knocking on your friend or his dad or grandpa but dirt track engines and the engine you are wanting are totally different animals. Tuning an engine to run correctly, safely with a supercharger alone(not even including nitrous in the mix) requires lots of experience and patience with blowers not just engines themselves.

Oh and for the record, all roots type use 2 carburetors. It's not a case of deciding a large CFM or small CFM. It again comes down to tuning, you can completely reverse any work put into an engine by overcamming and over carb'ing it. Which is what most people do.

You might want think about really beefing that TH-400 up and ditching that factory posi. If you end up building something like that, you'll blow that posi unit quick. Think about getting a spool, locker or an aftermarket Ford 9inch. Not to mention the weaker axles in the factory unit won't last long. Suspension? Airbags and wheels the size of a ferris wheel ain't gonna cut it, you'd be wasting your time. You better thing about 4link, with coil overs. At the least ladder bars. Better have a good high flow pump, pressure regulator and increase the line size and ditch all the rubber lines. Steering? Brakes? Gotta decide whether you wanna run power brakes or not cause you might have to run a vaccum can. Power steering? Be prepared to possibly fabricate the brackets. Brakes, definitley at least 4 wheel disk. You haul ass, but you gotta stop too.

One quick word of advice if you have never built an engine before. My dad told me this years ago. Think of a cam as the brain of an engine. You make that decision first. It effects what heads, what manifold, what carburetor, ignition, exhaust, transmission, rear end ratios etc. Take a step back and really decide what you want. Do you want something you can have fun in? Or just something that you can look cool in and pick up pussy? If you want the latter, just buy a crate hi performance 350 from GM and save yourself the time and the coroner some work.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:35:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMARINE1108:
If it was me, I'd go with an LS based forged 402 with a procharger, and forget the spray. Tons of benifits. But that's just me.



I'd go this way too. You could use the Procharger on your stroker as well, stay away from the roots.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:48:08 AM EDT
Choose either nitrous, or boost. Don't mix the two unless it's a turbo application in which the nitrous is spinning the turbine.

Aluminum H-beam rods are pretty rare, due to the fact they're not made to hold much power. Under your application, I'd be running a quality aluminum I-beam. Aluminum rods also absorb alot of impact there fore reducing the stress on your crank, main caps, and bearings.

I have no personal experience with the Eagle cranks, but I do know that Eagle's forgings come from the same place as Scat, and CAT. Don't belive me? Scat and Eagle don't even change their part numbers, and CAT changes them by three letters. Supposedly they all have an agreement, and that's why one out of the three will be the only one to carry one size of rod, etc.

With the power you're looking to make, you'll drive right over both your 400 and your 12 bolt. Beef up the 400, and look into a Ford 9".

With all of the stuff you're running, get a 120 amp alternator.

For the sake of your bottom end, look into some billet main caps as the factory castings would be a weak spot.

As for streetability, you should be fine so long as you don't always mash down the loud pedal at every light. Roots chargers being the least streetable of all boosted applications, and by far the least efficient.

I still reccomend talking to a professional about your combo in detail though. I myself would never touch a roots style blower system. They're the least efficient method of boost, not to mention the reduction of longevity on your bottom end they cause. While you may think the giant polished blower looks cool when you see one going down the road, driving a car with one can become annoying.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:56:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 7:57:30 AM EDT by BullDogger]
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=16561&parentCategoryId=10237&langId=-1
those are the connecting rods i was planning on getting.
I understand what your saying about the differences between dirt track and this kind of motor and while i dont have any books or videos he went to hastings the other day and bought $40 something dollar book on supercharging just so he would have reference material when putting this thing together. He also did some supercharging while in school so its not like its the first time anybody has ever seen a supercharger. The main thing is we are going slow with it and doing all the reading we can so we dont make any critical mistakes
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=CCA-K12-443-8+&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp&x=40&y=6
thats the cam kit i was planning on using right there.
On the transmission i was planning on getting a race kit from B&M
I also plan on keeping both power brakes and power steering too. On the axles and rearend im just going to leave them alone and upgrade as they break. LOL and hopefully it wont kill me when they do go

and for sure i want something to have fun in.....I was always the guy in school with the big slow 4x4 and all my friends had camaros and souped up trucks....my turn to put them all to shame...assuming this thing is set up and tuned right...what kind of 1/4 times would you guess this thing would be capable of?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:10:00 AM EDT
fuel injection and turbo for the win
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:21:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BullDogger:
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=16561&parentCategoryId=10237&langId=-1
those are the connecting rods i was planning on getting.
I understand what your saying about the differences between dirt track and this kind of motor and while i dont have any books or videos he went to hastings the other day and bought $40 something dollar book on supercharging just so he would have reference material when putting this thing together. He also did some supercharging while in school so its not like its the first time anybody has ever seen a supercharger. The main thing is we are going slow with it and doing all the reading we can so we dont make any critical mistakes
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=CCA-K12-443-8+&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp&x=40&y=6
thats the cam kit i was planning on using right there.
On the transmission i was planning on getting a race kit from B&M
I also plan on keeping both power brakes and power steering too. On the axles and rearend im just going to leave them alone and upgrade as they break. LOL and hopefully it wont kill me when they do go

and for sure i want something to have fun in.....I was always the guy in school with the big slow 4x4 and all my friends had camaros and souped up trucks....my turn to put them all to shame...assuming this thing is set up and tuned right...what kind of 1/4 times would you guess this thing would be capable of?



Thats the best thing. Don't rush it. Read books, ask questions.

I guarantee you that rear end will not handle that kinda power. It will for a little bit. If you don't do the suspension to hook up it'll last longer. But that one time that the planets align and you hook up it's coming apart. If you just changed the axles and swapped the stock posi it would be better and get a c-clip eliminator kit.

Welcome to the other sickness, it is way worse than guns ever could be. As far as the 1/4 times. With the suspension untouched and just the engine I'm sure in the 10s or 11s somewhere. If you set the suspension up right probably lower. The bad thing is unless you do the suspension, most of power ain't gonna make it to the ground it'll be lost to wheel spin and other factors that good suspension negates. Good luck and keep us updated.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:57:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:
Oh and for the record, all roots type use 2 carburetors.



No they don't. I had a single Dominator on a 4-71 on an Olds 403 many years ago. Ran fine, though it was beyond silly in a stationwagon
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:47:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 7:49:27 PM EDT by killingmachine123]

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
fuel injection and turbo for the win



A huge +1 here. I have run over 22PSI on my car with custom calibrated stock electronics and the car is still going strong.

If you want it to be inefficent, and harder to tune, stick with the roots blower and carbs. A centrifugal supercharger would be the only type I would considder.

I would go with steal rods, as they will far outlast al rods of the equivalent quality. Also, don't forget that al absorbing more shock and forged this or that being better is true to an extent, but it will provide only a small margin of error with a setup such as the one you are contemplating.

Honestly, if it were me, I would run SDS electronics for the cost and simplicity factor, and a turbo to make efficient power. Spray alky too.

ETA: this thing being a RELIABLE daily driver is a farse, or you are too rich to be consulting us.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:17:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 8:21:13 PM EDT by JJaiman]

Originally Posted By USMARINE1108:
If it was me, I'd go with an LS based forged 402 with a procharger, and forget the spray. Tons of benifits. But that's just me.



Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
fuel injection and turbo for the win



I agree with both these ideas. To give you an example of LS potential. I had a LS6 motor built for my 00' Camaro SS that was basically a stock LS6 with ported heads and Cam, and bolt on's (headers, ported LS6 intake, Ported TB). This engine put down 488 RWHP last time on the dyno and 437 RWTQ (I can provide dyno sheets if necessary). Now, the owner of the shop that built the engine for my car was given a single turbo kit from pro turbo kits (proturbokits.com) to try out. It was a basic kit with front mount intercooler and a 67mm turbo I believe. Needless to say on my stock block, stock rod, stock piston car at 5 pounds of boost pushed my rwhp to something like 675 give or take a few hp. Now, take this info and do with it as you like but my car is totally streetable, get's over 25 mpg on the highway and runs mid 10's all day long. Oh, btw, if you do plan on using the setup you said with blower and spray, you only need like a 50 shot to notice the gains of the n20. It is used in blower applications to cool down the intake charge and thus make more power. Since more air is already being pushed into the engine and it's now cooler, a small shot is only necessary. It's not uncommon to gain like 100 rwhp on a 30 shot of n20 on turbo and supercharged cars (like running an alcohol injection setup for you turbo regal guys). I can tell you where to go to get many articles on this if your interested in learning more. Good luck with your project either way and make sure you post pics of the finished supertruckJames
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:39:28 AM EDT
Thanks for all the help guys...and i will post some pics in a few months. Also does anybody know where to get some AFR heads cheaper than jegs? which is right at $1,500
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:59:41 PM EDT
If you are going to spend that kind of cash, why don't you just get a 572 big block crate motor?
650 HP on pump gas sound pretty good to me. Add a good fuel injection setup and you will have a very streetable super fast truck. PS, how are you going to get any traction? Tubs and 15 inch wide slicks?
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 6:38:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 7:33:48 AM EDT by BullDogger]
a 572 with fuel injection will cost a heck of a lot more money than what im planning and still be 300-400 hp less, not to mention how much more heavy they are. I dont have a ton of money to throw down at once and dont want to be saving for ever either. I already got some of the parts for the 383 and the plan is build it over time. Buy one part this week, another part the next. I will figure out the traction part when time comes.


Another question for the gurus here. My mechanic friend has a ford 9" and a dana 60 he wants to get rid of. Dana 60 has 4.10 in it and not sure yet on the ford 9". What say ye?
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 7:46:34 AM EDT
The Ford 9 inch will be more serviceable and cheaper to work with. They'll handle the power you make just fine and are the easiest rear end to shorten because the axle shafts are not tapered.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:17:04 AM EDT
Ok. Thanks for the help ford 9" it is
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:05:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
The Ford 9 inch will be more serviceable and cheaper to work with. They'll handle the power you make just fine and are the easiest rear end to shorten because the axle shafts are not tapered.



+1 I run a 9 inch in my Camaro SS and it's the best money I ever spent. Takes a beating and keeps going. Very strong and very easy to service.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:17:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SniperKage:
No they don't. I had a single Dominator on a 4-71 on an Olds 403 many years ago. Ran fine, though it was beyond silly in a stationwagon


With out a girdled bottom end, I'd be afraid for anything near the motor when you stomped the gas. The 403's are kick ass street motors, but the windowed main webs are a risky situation under boost or high horsepower applications.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:54:38 AM EDT
Can you guys look on www.summitracing.com for me and help me choose the exact camshaft and lifter kit I need. Im unsure on where i need a dual pattern cam or what. Im going with a hydraulic roller camshaft and lifters and have to buy a retro fit kit from comp cams to make this work. I dont know if i need a certain degree of lobe seperation or a certain pattern for a supercharged motor. Im looking to purchase today so any help would be nice. This is the number to the kit i think i need
CCA-K12-443-8
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:12:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BullDogger:
Can you guys look on www.summitracing.com for me and help me choose the exact camshaft and lifter kit I need. Im unsure on where i need a dual pattern cam or what. Im going with a hydraulic roller camshaft and lifters and have to buy a retro fit kit from comp cams to make this work. I dont know if i need a certain degree of lobe seperation or a certain pattern for a supercharged motor. Im looking to purchase today so any help would be nice. This is the number to the kit i think i need
CCA-K12-443-8



You would really be best off calling the cam manufaturer to see what they would recomend given your setup. The folks at summit might have a suggestion too.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:41:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SniperKage:

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:
Oh and for the record, all roots type use 2 carburetors.



No they don't. I had a single Dominator on a 4-71 on an Olds 403 many years ago. Ran fine, though it was beyond silly in a stationwagon



Really? Never knew that. Though come to think of it I don't think I've ever been around or paid attention to 4-71s. Blowing a 403 Olds, man you're brave.......
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:55:54 AM EDT
Called Summit and their tech line is closed until monday. Filled out comps online question deal but it says it might be a day or 2 until i get a reply. So any reply before then would be helpful.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 10:33:29 PM EDT
From my expierence with superchargers you want a cam that's either straight up like a 224/224 .555/555 (not the exact cam specs I'd use but just to give you an idea of what I mean by straight up) or use a cam that is larger on the exhaust side like 224/228 .555/.581 (again not the exact cam specs I'd use). I'm assuming the car will be automatic so your going to want to run a 114 lsa so you can drive it on the street. This will make your hp and tq curves less peaky and more broad giving you a more even powerband. I'm sure summit will give you some good info but I'd pick a company such as comp or crane and ask them what they would use. Comp helped me alot with another project car and they were dead on the money for what I wanted.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 9:29:27 AM EDT
Well everything is good on that kit then except the lsa which is 110. What kind of problems would this pose for me? I contacted comp cams already and they still havent got back with me. When i called them a couple weeks ago i waited for over 1/2 hour on the phone and gave up.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 2:16:31 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 10:32:00 PM EDT
Idoubt it will be a real problem.....the 114 lsa will just make a broader power curve and it pushes the curve back a bit making your peak hp and tq come on quicker. If comp cams is selling you a supercharger cam with a 110 lsa I would trust them....that's what they do.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:51:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 8:25:28 AM EDT by BullDogger]
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=CCA-08-467-8&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp&x=36&y=9

Thats the camshaft the guy at comp reccomended for me. But that one is designed for fuel injected motors and in the description it says its computer controlled. WTF? lol...does that matter? maybe the blower will make my motor act like a fuel injected vehicle or something? what do yal think? I also told him that the thing had a holley 750 4 barrel on it. Also how do i find out what length pushrods i need?


btw you guys are way better than any car website...i asked some of these questions on a hotrod website and nobody did shit to help me.
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