Okay, silly question maybe. I started making mead (honey wine) about 6 months ago and from the start it's been a runaway success. My friends are talking about investing in my company that doesn't even exist yet.

From everything I've read it takes a LOT of time and money to open up a winery or brewery.

My current plan is to slowly start acquiring commercial-grade fermenters (of increasing capacity) and keep developing my recipes, and process. Enter into competitions and give away bottles to people who are connected.

I shared a bottle with a world-famous brewer that said he liked it, and I sent 4 bottles over to another up-and-coming brewer. If I get his informal endorsement as well, that would be a big boost.

An ARFCommer, @stutzcattle (?), opened a brewery/winery IIRC.

I'm curious, how are you producing good mead in less than 6 months? Most meads take months to a year or two to age appropriately.

As soon as they have to pay $30 a bottle,  those friends will turn faster than the NRA.

You make wine that sells,  not what you like.

Also the fastest way to make $10000 from $100000 is by starting a winery.

What's your business plan look like?  What is your distro area?  Where is your production facility going to be? Are you married? Do you have kids?  Do you like working 80-90 hr weeks every week? Are you going to have a tasting room? Will you serve food? Do you have the funding to not make money for 2 years? Where are you pulling employees from? Are they full time or part time?

I have about a thousand more questions you need to answer before you do anything else.

And you better have access to a lot of money, even if it's not yours.

And your friends that you are giving free booze to are terrible people to take advice from.

This.  I gotta ask, what kind of market does mead have?  I was in the wine industry for years and never saw commercial mead.  Not saying its wasn't around.

There is always used gear on the market.  I know a lot of small wineries that trade up every few years and hire mobile bottling companies to package the product.

I would recommend that you look for contests to enter your product.  Stay west coast and BC Canada.  Stay small until you have reasons to grow.

I have a lot of experience in business, but not wine. Stutz is a crotchety old geezer (who happens to be trapped in a young mans body )but he is your man for this.

My experience in the wine business is drinking a box of walmarts finest and chasing it with 3 or 4, 40 ounce mickey's every friday and saturday night the summer i turned 16.

My general input would be that everyone always thinks its a good idea until they have to cut a check. Especially when the product is something that makes men talk big.

Honestly, knowledge of business is a huge thing. That separates owning a business from buying yourself a shitty job.

One example, some food for thought. I bought a small business with family 6 months ago. The previous owner was my brothers mentor and had a top notch reputation and definitely wasnt afraid to charge for his work. In 28 years, their best year produced a solid wage for the owner and 78k in profit. We'll easily make 190k our first full calendar year. Partially bc my brother is a great face for the company, and partially bc im behind the scenes and im a very sharp numbers guy.

The flipside of that, i want this business to scale to 400k in profit in 4 years. We'll invest nearly 750k to acheive that. My pockets are shallow and cash always hinders me. I borrow more money every single month between rentals, farm, auto shops, and a couple other businesses i have a silent role in.

When we took over i had a lot of questions for the owner and his wife. He credited his wife with having the business savvy to keep them going all these years. They had no clue. They couldn't even answer basic questions.

The average owner knows nearly nothing about it. Over half of them cant even tell you what their profit and cash flow is. My best friend in the entire world has 18 guys and 6 million in equipment. He does well but he literally doesnt know if he made a profit until around feb 1 of the next year when his accountant tells him. Thats fucking insane. But not uncommon. I get weekly and monthly reports emailed to me on every single investment i have and i look at p/l daily for some of them.

Ive been investing in business since i was 14, never taken a dime out other than to pay taxes, still work a day job, and live modestly. Next year will be the first year i feel okay taking substantial draws and cutting my day job to 2 days a week.

Ive been nearly homeless, unable to buy food, had huge debt service payments, many stress related health problems, lost my first marriage (as have every one of my young business owner friends), worked 100 hours a week and was thankful to have a light week for once.

Im not saying its bad. I wouldnt take it back, but you need to be honest with yourself if you are even cut out for it.

Very few businesses close due to being unprofitable. They close due to cash flow and not being profitable enough to service the debt.

I think I'm quite lovable.

As a crotchety fella myself,  also trapped in a young mans body,  i have a certain soft spot for your opinions. I agree with most of them,  which is rare for me.

In Nebraska, mead is a very small market.  The only meadery that was in Nebraska recently closed.  I'd be a little hesitant to take a hobby you really enjoy and turn it into a business that you hate.  This is a grueling business that requires a ton of investment, both in time and money.  I won't tell you what we have invested in our business, but when I say it's "a lot".  I mean a literal fuck ton.  And I work every day of the week.  Either in the brewery, the taproom or I'm out doing events.

Two years? I doubt many commercial products are produced in 12-24 months. I am not sure how long Superstition or Schramms takes to produce their products. The problem I've run into talking to a lot of amature mazers. They have been told "throw yeast at some honey and wait a really long time". And sure, that generally works, but it's not efficient and techniques have been evolving.

Taking a step back, I think I need produce a lot more quality batches before I get serious about this idea.
My plan would be to have a small production facility, self-distribute, and no tasting room. Probably get word of mouth out through comps, events, and word-of mouth.

There's a guy in town who got a residential garage certified as a commercial brewery, I was thinking about talking to him to see what his process was. I don't think he's making a ton of money on that right now, more of a hobby. I have no illusions of big profits haha.

mead is a growing industry. I'd recommend reaching out to Charm city meadworks in Baltimore (they make some really interesting dry carbonated melomels) and Crafted mead out of northern Ohio. They are both really growing right now and would probably be a good source for advice.

The tasting room is where all the money is.  Wholesale wine here sells for $9-12 a bottle.  $5-6 per glass is a much better margin.

My idea would be to self-distribute initially.  Small batches, all labor done by me, as a second job, nights and weekends. With self-distribution there is no wholesale cost, no middleman. I could sell them myself or make special deals with local liquor stores, that also do tastings.

A 14-gal batch would yield about 130 ish bottles. Based on my calculations, it would cost about $5/bottle in raw materials costs (honey, water, fruit, yeast, nutrients, bottles, cap/corks, labels, wine tax) ; most 375s of really good mead are selling for $16-20 each (might have to go cheaper initially). So, if I can make the mead really good, and have enough demand, I can potentially be profitable. Those profits could be re-invested into the business to get more fermenter capacity (which is the main equipment cost, as far as I can see)- I need to read up on how taxation works for a business.

I guess the problem with a hobby business is that to be licensed, it costs money. Even if I get a small facility licensed on my own property, it's a pretty high bar for entry. And if the business takes off, I would quickly be running out of space.
Heck even licensing a trademark and logo looks like it costs hundreds of dollars, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. At worst, I will lose money and the venture will fail.  What I'm hoping for is something that eventually could be somewhat profitable as a side-job. The moonshot is eventually creating something that grows to the point of being a runaway success. But I have no illusions that it would be easy or fast. I think Schramms took something like 12 or 15 years from where I am at now to being a huge success.

People get hung up on licensing and permit costs. In most cases they are almost nothing in the grand scheme of things.

If your business model has you worried about a few hundred for a license,  you need to seriously think it out.

I hear you. But at the same time, I don't like to waste money. I just bought some small stainless fermenters. But it's a physical object that  has value. A trademark has no/very little value whatsoever until you produce a commercial product.

Let me know if you want a deal on a 200 gallon floating top fermenter.  I'll make you a heck of a deal on one we don't use.  I wouldn't trademark a logo yet.  You may think you like what you have, but a year from now you may go a different direction.  A key point to remember is that people buy wine/beer for the first time based on the label.  Don't fuck that up.

I've been in several smaller wineries in the last couple of years as part of my academic program. They're extraordinarily capital-intensive and all seem to be relying on agritourism/event hosting/"tasting room" experiences.

Mead, of course, is different since it doesn't rely on a grape crop that can be a royal pain to produce or expensive to purchase.

In addition to refining your process so there's no "voodoo" involved (I've made a bit of mead - the variables are significant), I'd encourage you to look into your state's licensing and permitting requirements. They're probably not as awful as you imagine, but there are very specific benchmarks for different types and levels of licensing.

When you look at Ken Schramm, also remember that he wrote one of the most recommended books on mazing.

Yeah, you're a fucking social butterfly

Under the right circumstances, you are entirely correct.

How's things been brother?  We need to catch up.

Yeah we do

Just when I thought I had this whole mead thing figured out my latest batch ended up finishing 12 points higher than where I planned. I now have to mix up another batch that's drier and blend the 2. It'll be a learning experience.

I whipped up a pumpkin pie mead on short notice and it got awesome reviews (blended some already-fermented meads) and my caramel cyser was also quite a hit.
I just racked 3 gallons of (too sweet) mead onto 6 lbs of organic pineapple. Should be interesting. Most of that will get coconut later, but some will not.

That's a yeast problem. Be careful bottling it and having fermentation start in the bottle.

I have a fair amount of advice in this post, but one thing supercedes all the rest. Make sure your product is good. As you expand your operation, you must maintain that quality. If you fail to do this, no other advice will matter; you will fail. So here it goes.

A local microbrewery near me has a deal with a pizza shop just down the street. Flatland Brewery offers a menu for Spicy Pie, and I assume they split the profits. I don’t want to give advise in an area of expertise that’s not mine, but if you want to open a bar/taproom, beer is far more marketable than wine. Valid or not, wine has a perception that is effeminate. If you brew good variety of beer as well, you will double your market.

If you just want to be a maker, approach your local liquor stores. Offer them good cuts on the wine they sell. Be sure to push the fact that your product is LOCAL, if possible the raw materials will be locally sourced. Spend the money on a good graphic designer to produce iconic and good labels, which believe me, can make or break the perception of your product.

With a very small operation, you will likely need to charge a lot for your product. Make your customers feel that they are getting great value for their dollar. Emphasize the fact in your advertising that you are using locally sourced water, grapes, and honey. Approach your local farmers directly to buy their raw materials, and incorporate that into your marketing.

Hire a 20 year old college student part time to manage your social media, to produce a good website and facebook page for your product. They will be better at it than you.

Offer a variety of products. Do not only produce your favorite type of wine, but make popular types which sell well.

Incorporate Old World charm into your wine bottles. I assume you will not be marketing wine to poor people. You will probably be in the 25-35 dollar range for your bottles. Make them look old school, old fashioned bottles give an air of legitimacy.

Reach out to local events like state fairs, cultural festivals (In my corner of ND there is an annual Icelandic heritage festival, for example), and the like. Run a booth there, operated by a person well versed in your product whi can give a personal touch to your brand.

Get a local bar or restaurant to carry your wine as a middle price range option. Make sure the bartendersand waiters know your own company’s story. People will spend money on a product that carries a personal connection.

You will work hard. Many hours, and the company might not make you any money for a while. The local bars, liquor stores, restaurants, and fairs might laugh in your face. Do not be discouraged. Keep trying, and don’t listen to the people in this thread saying that you can’t make money. Trust yourself, but don’t be so stubborn that you try to do a job yourself that would be better outsourced to a talented person.

Your local colleges, despite the prevailing sentiment on Arfcom, are a tremendous untapped resource of potential talent. Set up a booth at their career fair, and find people who share your passion for wine. They will produce for you beyond their salary.

Good luck!

Interestingly enough, when I racked some mead onto blueberries, fermentation started again a couple days later. I know blueberries are full of nutrients, so it may be that it has re-invigorated the yeast. At any rate, I don't rush things unneccesarily, and I only had 1 batch out of 10 keep fermenting once in the bottle - and that was probably due to nutrients from the fruit.

Fun thing about mead that some people don't know, mead requires a wine license- you can't make beer with that license, and vice versa.

To me it makes sense from a market standpoint, craft beer is quickly becoming saturated- and wine consumption is increasing.

I have a buddy who is in the process of opening a microbrewery. I know it's not exactly a winery but close. What he has discovered is that there is a steep learning curve, some of it good and some of it bad.

Something that my buddy never considered, limited batches. When he originally opened he wanted to get these gigantic vats but the install was going to take up to a year with regulatory and inspections. He went ahead buying the large vats but also got a smaller one to begin production in a different brew room to bring in cash.

The smaller vats produced a very high end beer that they charged a premium. So many people wanted it that they kept running out. Rather than increase production, they marketed it in a limited edition brew promoting the time each batch would be ready. On those weekends, the lines were out the door. They had to start limiting it to one carryout growlers each person. For a super premium (no volume discount) they will sell you a keg with advance reservation.

As for food, they coordinate with several food truck companies who set up in their parking lot for a small fee.

Don't know if this will help you but as I said, the learning curve is high. BTW the large vats are still not yet approved 1.5 years later.

Large brewing equipment requires no more certification than small tanks. Something is off.

The room with the small vats was already approved because it was an existing brewery. Only approval of the equipment was required. They built on the addition for the large vats which is going though every type of inspection imaginable. It's also more complicated that they built a new kitchen/refer room/freezer room in the addition too.

I'd still stay something is off. Unless he is doing it himself,  even cities with very strict inspections don't hold up work that long except for gross incompetence on the part of the contractor.

My longest stop work order lasted 14 days and that was only because the inspector tried to swing his dick around.

Typically all of that is approved before work is started so only the minor details and mechanical code are issues.

I wonder if it would be legal to compensate investors with "free" mead bottles before I've obtained a license? They might argue that it was in fact selling the mead. :/

I think my best bet to making something legally "sellable" would be partnering with an existing winery with a license. Then, as far as I know, I would just have to submit labels and recipes for approval. But I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

My dad owns a very small  Vinyard in Napa area of California. The liquor distribution laws make it very difficult (almost impossible IMHO) for a small player in the wine business to get their product to market. They had to have their customers join a wine club if they were out of state. The industrial level producers have lined up the regulations to squeeze out the little guy.

We don't submit recipes for approval. Maybe that is a state reg. Label approval is pretty simple.

You haven't had to work in Michigan! I forget what order you have to submit but you need State, County and City inspections. Food is separate from alcohol which is separate from construction so essentially you need to do it three times. The irony is that if he were in Detroit itself, a Detroit pass automatically gives you a County pass!!

Ive worked in michigan as well as about 20 other states on food projects as large as 300  million dollars including the largest single site milking facility in the world and 2 of the  5 largest processing plants. From the time i was 18 i ran crews installing food grade pipelines/equipment and later ran the entire company.  I dealt with the inspectors and fda almost weekly and often daily.

Thats why I'm suggesting that something may be off. Neither here nor there, though. I wish him the best. Business isnt easy.

Consistency is a huge issue. You have to get the process down to a point where you have no wide swings in taste, alcohol, etc. if you start selling and it changes you are dead.
Get started on the legal and banking crap. The ATF will be looking for a shit load of paper work and some money. As will the State.
You will be money forward. Monies going out long before money comes in. When money does come in it will be quick and end quick if you are successful. I was very close to someone that started a winery.  A very successful one. Worked there a few times. Was privy to a lot of information. Learned a lot about wine making and wine business from the growing and making side. They sell every bottle in inventory in 8 weeks. Several $ Million worth.
There is no substitute for quality and there is always room at the top !

A lot of small start up breweries here in GA will do a "Contract Brewing" with larger, established breweries. They pretty much use the brewery's equipment, maybe their ingredients but put it to their recipe and their brewing methods, sometimes the head brewer will help them out to help refine their learning on large scale equipment, which is different from doing a 5 gallon batch in the garage.
OP, this may be something you could do, get in touch with a local winery and see if they would be open to doing this with you (if legally allowed by your local & state regulations). Of course you would have to probably pay them something, but it may get you jump started into your commercial business.
Good luck

I just finished up a Pina Colada mead that turned out amazing IMO (organic pineapple, toasted coconut, organic raw coconut). Unlike some products, I haven't experimented with adding acid blends to my meads yet. As a result, even at "sweet" level and 15% alcohol they still manage to feel "soft" and "light".  Like fruit juice or a mimosa. Anyway, this turned out really good- initially like pineapple juice and then the coconut comes on. Lingering finish of sweet pineapple/coconut. My friend said he tasted brown sugar, rum as well. I would feel confident selling this for $20/ bottle.

I am starting to rethink my idea though. I'm not sure 14 gallon batches would be commercially viable. If I jumped into commercial mazing, I think 1 BBL batches would need to be the minimum size.
1BBL fermenters are expensive and I'm not sure what the best type to use for mead would be. I think I need to start touring the meaderies that are around the state to see how they are doing things.
[Edit- found some 27g Blichmann conicals that look perfect!]

14g batches- might yield up to 130 bottles - (would have to hold some back from every batch too)
1 BBL batches - might yield up to 300 bottles

If I only have 2-4 fermenters, I'm not producing new batches real often. I think I'd be comfortable with 10 week timeline on each batch - including 2 weeks of cold conditioning / cold crashing before bottling.

If I stick with 14g fermenters the advantage would be you could fit 2 of them in a chest freezer for cold conditioning.

A lot of new startups use poly conicals. That’s what I started the brewery with. Pretty cheap and easy to use. I’ve got a couple extra if you need some. They are 85 gallon tanks.

I make a lot of wine as a hobby. Typically making it takes about 5 weeks and then I let it sit on shelf for 90 days before drinking. Our batches make 30 bottles each. Most bottles last about a year before the taste starts to go away without adding an ingredient that makes it last longer. I have found that a lot of people love the idea of drinking wine and say they are going to buy it but when I am sitting on 4 flavors, 120 bottles all of a sudden they only want a bottle or two. Don't turn a hobby/passion into work unless you are for sure going to make a profit and it's not just friends wanting a place to hang out.