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Posted: 1/4/2006 4:05:38 AM EDT
My copy arrived yesterday (I must be doing something right), but it was damaged (not that right, apparently).

Louis' column was excellent as usual, and always the first thing I read. He makes a good point that is sometimes lost (among the one-response-fit-all crowd) ... increasing the distance between one's self and a threat isn't always the best course of action, and depends on the situation.

Claire Wolfe hit another home run. She couldn't be any more right (correct) this month. The number and complexity of criminal laws we have is mind boggling, but no more so than equating non-violent offenders with violent, predators (in terms of loss of rights due to felony convictions). The Martha Stewart example is an excellent choice to contrast to genuine crimes committed by very bad people. The idea that all "convicted felons" are the same has gone way, way too far and needs to be address legislatively with an urgency at least equal to our fight for RKBA because it is very much a part of the RKBA.

Glad to see the sweepstakes again ... I'm hoping to add the Bushy 9mm to the Sully AR I'm winning in last month's drawing.

Brent Wheat's column is always well-written and he makes excellent points this time (I disagreed with him at least partially on the issue of open carry a few months ago). I suspect it will be better received from him than from other sources. If Claire Wolfe said the exact same things, for instance, well ... the intended audience might not be as positively disposed.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:06:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:09:47 PM EDT
Soooooooo...............


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?

My comment is a bit coy, but seriously, I enjoyed the article, not just because I feel vindicated on the most reliable capacity to load your AR mags, but because he covers the entire 'magazine-is-critical-to-performance perspective' so well.

Great issue....................again!

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:50:41 AM EDT
Pat's article was great.

Funny, I recently replaced all my plates and followers with enhanced followers and ranger plates, and now he has me all paranoid about the springs.
Lucky for me, Hans Vang ( 20 minutes away) keeps a good stock of SAW springs in his shop.

Jay
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:03:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:38:42 AM EDT
When will the new issue make it to the newsstand?

Also, may I suggest a search option on www.swatmag.com where
a person can type in their zip code and a list of where the magazine
will be available comes up, with newsstand date.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:55:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:49:58 AM EDT
Rich ... some of my copies arrived damaged, which is obviously a risk when shipping a magazine loose through the USPS.

How much would it add to the price of subscriptions to put them in envelopes or add a thick paper cover like Women & Guns uses?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:19:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:42:19 PM EDT
Whoa! I had no idea it would be that much.

Thanks for the offer on replacement. My Feb issue is just a little wrinkled and torn at the top corner (on the binding side), so it's still useable! Once I've read it a few times and it gets bounced around in my room, that will seem like a minor thing.

I'll let you know if I get one that is really bad though.

What about putting a couple of "seals" to hold the pages together in transit like they do with the Dillon Blue Press? That seems to help quite a bit, but again I may be underestimating the cost and trouble involved. I'm just thinkin' out loud here.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:56:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 4:57:32 AM EDT by Rich_Lucibella]
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:55:21 PM EDT
Thanks for giving me the big picture.

I guess you can't know until you ask!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:36:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:44:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.



Well, hell... I guess Pat doesn't know what he's talking about.

I guess you can lead a horse to water, but you shouldn't have to put your lips to his asshole and suck to make him drink.

The only comment I have is the Editor's Note that was added to Pat's article about washing magazines in the dishwasher - I don't think this is a good idea. If Gunsite doesn't want us putting expended brass in our hats because of possible lead contamination, I can't imagine that putting finely divided lead compounds into the machine that cleans our eating apparatus is advisable either.

Respectfully submitted,

The Invisible Man
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 1:25:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.



It is very hard to seat a fully loaded mag when the bolt is forward. Too many people have mags fall out after a tactical reload with a filled to the brim mag. Downloading by two tends to solve this problem.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 4:25:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ShackleMeNot:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.



It is very hard to seat a fully loaded mag when the bolt is forward. Too many people have mags fall out after a tactical reload with a filled to the brim mag. Downloading by two tends to solve this problem.




If you cannot seat a fully loaded mag with the bolt closed, maybe you should not own an AR.

It isn't hard to seat a mag.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 4:35:52 PM EDT
Damaged copy:

This is why I now don't have a subs - guess my previous mailman was anti-self-protection or something.

Although I do buy the mag on base, so there is some savings.

Awerbuck's column - although he didn't directly say it, it reminds me of the 'he who turns and runs away, lives to fight another day' thought.

I'm in the crowd with Aimless; I thought everybody did it. I can't even remember hearing or seeing this come up in conversation - until I saw it on ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 4:44:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



Now you went and did it



P.S. great mag guys!!
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 2:11:59 PM EDT
This issue also marks my professional modeling debut. If you look on page 47, in the lower right-hand corner, there is an ad for Mesa Tactical. In the upper left-hand corner of the ad, there is a pic of me, taken by Oleg Volk.

Oleg was hired by Mesa Tactical to do some photos for them. In turn, he asked me to pose for him. It was really fun, and I was given a Mesa Tactical stock adapter and some shell-holders for my 870 in payment. (As an aside, I have to say that I've been favorably impressed with their products and fully intend to buy some for a couple of my other shotguns.)
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 3:25:16 PM EDT
Congrats!

I wouldn't mind hearing a little bit about that stock adapter. IM if you need to.

And I have to say green/black/white is a much better combo for you than say...a pastel and maybe heels.

You knew somebody was gonna do it...right?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:03:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 8:07:31 PM EDT by OEF_VET]
I love the Mesa Tactical stock adapter, and I'm not just saying that because I modelled for them.

I love the ability to adjust the LOP, dependant on what I'm wearing, or if someone else is shooting the weapon. I was a bit concerned that recoil would seem harsh, but that fear was disproved during my first range trip with it mounted. I put about 100 rounds through the weapon, mostly some 2 3/4 birdshot, but I also included about 10-15 rounds of 2 3/4 buckshot and about 10 rounds of 3" slugs. The recoil seemed about the same as with the Speedfeed III that had previously been on the gun.

The ONLY thing that didn't impress me was the optional sling mount for the adapter. It is a QD / detent system that comes loose with hardly a tug. I would definitely not recommend using these as an attachment point for a single point sling. Doing so could easily result in you becoming seperated from your shotgun if someone gave it a yank.

All in all, I consider the Mesa Tactical adapter to be a good piece of equipment.


Oh, and I look damn fine in heels. (Halloween/Battalion Costume Party/Monica Lewinsky costume, complete with blue dress. Let's just say I was borderline guilty of Conduct Unbecoming a NonCommissioned Officer. About the only thing that saved me was the fact that I had the BN, BDE, and DivArty CDR's laughing their asses off AND dancing with me!)
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:35:53 AM EDT


Nothing like laughing my ass off at 0530. HAHA!

Thanks for the review - wonder if they have plans to modify the 'quick release' single point.

Please...DON"T post Halloween pics. HAHA!
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:50:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:53:09 AM EDT by rhino_]

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
If you cannot seat a fully loaded mag with the bolt closed, maybe you should not own an AR.

It isn't hard to seat a mag.



The rest of us must either be inept or too feeble and weak to seat our mags when they are fully loaded 100% of the time.

You should consider yourself lucky to be so skilled and mighty! Good thing all rifles, mag catches, and mags are identical and tolerance issues could never make mags harder to seat in one gun than another.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:01:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rhino_:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
If you cannot seat a fully loaded mag with the bolt closed, maybe you should not own an AR.

It isn't hard to seat a mag.



The rest of us must either be inept or too feeble and weak to seat our mags when they are fully loaded 100% of the time.

You should consider yourself lucky to be so skilled and mighty! Good thing all rifles, mag catches, and mags are identical and tolerance issues could never make mags harder to seat in one gun than another.



Well, maybe you need to try a different training setup.

It requires a little more force to insert a full loaded 30 round mag, but it isn't hard enough to make me download my mags.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:28:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By rhino_:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
If you cannot seat a fully loaded mag with the bolt closed, maybe you should not own an AR.

It isn't hard to seat a mag.



The rest of us must either be inept or too feeble and weak to seat our mags when they are fully loaded 100% of the time.

You should consider yourself lucky to be so skilled and mighty! Good thing all rifles, mag catches, and mags are identical and tolerance issues could never make mags harder to seat in one gun than another.



Well, maybe you need to try a different training setup.

It requires a little more force to insert a full loaded 30 round mag, but it isn't hard enough to make me download my mags.






HAHA!

Oh damn, you're killing me here!



Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:47:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 4:48:21 PM EDT by rhino_]

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
Well, maybe you need to try a different training setup.

It requires a little more force to insert a full loaded 30 round mag, but it isn't hard enough to make me download my mags.



What training? I just play with my airsoft replicas and post messages on internet forums. I don't actually shoot real guns, much less do "training."




Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:54:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:25:15 PM EDT
My wife says without Cap'n Ken on the cover she isn't reading it.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:25:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.

Well hell, now that someone with zero credibility (save a post count higher than mine) has told me its ok, I can quit listening to the people who do this for a living, and start putting 30 in my mags.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:59:10 PM EDT
Personally, I have never seen a LE situation where even 28 rounds were fired other than from handguns. My thinking on this would be, " If one can't hit what one is shooting at with 28, 60 won't do any good either. Interesting take on different points of view about this though.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:46:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 2:52:51 AM EDT by Hydguy]

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.

Well hell, now that someone with zero credibility (save a post count higher than mine) has told me its ok, I can quit listening to the people who do this for a living, and start putting 30 in my mags.



My credibility comes from being in the Marine Corps and training with the m-16 in much rougher and diritier conditions than some 'experts'. Where does yours come from? S.W.A.T articles?

Sorry that you have issues inserting a loaded mag, but nothing in any training manual says the 'you must load an M-16 magazine to only 28 rounds or you will experience failures'.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:37:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:47:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rich_Lucibella:
Personally, I think it depends....on whether you're using Weaver vs Iscocles; and whether your secondary is a 9mm or a 45 ACP.

Rich




"Modern Technique" vs. "Progressive" is probably a factor now too. I just know it!

And don't forget ... IPSC will get you KILLED!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:40:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rich_Lucibella:
Personally, I think it depends....on whether you're using Weaver vs Iscocles; and whether your secondary is a 9mm or a 45 ACP.

Rich

EVERYBODY knows you shoot Weaver and carry a 1911 in .45 as a secondary.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:30:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rhino_:

Originally Posted By Rich_Lucibella:
Personally, I think it depends....on whether you're using Weaver vs Iscocles; and whether your secondary is a 9mm or a 45 ACP.

Rich




"Modern Technique" vs. "Progressive" is probably a factor now too. I just know it!

And don't forget ... IPSC will get you KILLED!



A guy at the range told me the holster figured into it also. Something about less intertia while drawing with a belt holster compared to a drop leg (arm swing) allowed the rounds to stay in the correct position in the mag, thereby ensuring proper feeding and allowing one to completely fill a mag carried on the belt.

WTF am I babbling about...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:41:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.

Well hell, now that someone with zero credibility (save a post count higher than mine) has told me its ok, I can quit listening to the people who do this for a living, and start putting 30 in my mags.



My credibility comes from being in the Marine Corps and training with the m-16 in much rougher and diritier conditions than some 'experts'. Where does yours come from? S.W.A.T articles?

Sorry that you have issues inserting a loaded mag, but nothing in any training manual says the 'you must load an M-16 magazine to only 28 rounds or you will experience failures'.

-

Color me jaded but I've seen enough things done in the military that were done just for the sake of doing them. Personally, I'll take the advice of people like Pat Rogers, Shay, etc over someone that was just in the Marines. Top tier trainers that have info that I can readily apply or immediately notice the benefit carry a bit more weight in my world.

Also here is something to ponder. Would you still have no issue fully seating a fully loaded 30 round mag in an AR platform if you were forced to use only 1 limb or just your weak side?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:08:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.

Well hell, now that someone with zero credibility (save a post count higher than mine) has told me its ok, I can quit listening to the people who do this for a living, and start putting 30 in my mags.



My credibility comes from being in the Marine Corps and training with the m-16 in much rougher and diritier conditions than some 'experts'. Where does yours come from? S.W.A.T articles?

Sorry that you have issues inserting a loaded mag, but nothing in any training manual says the 'you must load an M-16 magazine to only 28 rounds or you will experience failures'.

-

Color me jaded but I've seen enough things done in the military that were done just for the sake of doing them. Personally, I'll take the advice of people like Pat Rogers, Shay, etc over someone that was just in the Marines. Top tier trainers that have info that I can readily apply or immediately notice the benefit carry a bit more weight in my world.

Also here is something to ponder. Would you still have no issue fully seating a fully loaded 30 round mag in an AR platform if you were forced to use only 1 limb or just your weak side?



I could manage to load one just fine, thank you.

Pat Rodgers, while very knowledgable, is not the end all be all of knowledge. HAving read the article, he makes many good points, but in my case, I'll load to 30, as I have the confidance in my skills to handle my firearm.

Of course, if you want to prove me wrong, you could always pay my way into his class, to see how I do...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:17:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By redfisher:


I wonder when we can re-start the "28 rounds in a magazine" debate, now that we have Mr Rogers in our camp?






I was stumped seeing a thread about this recently, I thought downloading two rounds was common knowledge.



It's a common misconception that you have to download a mag to get it to work.

I've never had a mag fail when fully loaded.

Well hell, now that someone with zero credibility (save a post count higher than mine) has told me its ok, I can quit listening to the people who do this for a living, and start putting 30 in my mags.



My credibility comes from being in the Marine Corps and training with the m-16 in much rougher and diritier conditions than some 'experts'. Where does yours come from? S.W.A.T articles?

Sorry that you have issues inserting a loaded mag, but nothing in any training manual says the 'you must load an M-16 magazine to only 28 rounds or you will experience failures'.

-

Color me jaded but I've seen enough things done in the military that were done just for the sake of doing them. Personally, I'll take the advice of people like Pat Rogers, Shay, etc over someone that was just in the Marines. Top tier trainers that have info that I can readily apply or immediately notice the benefit carry a bit more weight in my world.

Also here is something to ponder. Would you still have no issue fully seating a fully loaded 30 round mag in an AR platform if you were forced to use only 1 limb or just your weak side?



I could manage to load one just fine, thank you.

Pat Rodgers, while very knowledgable, is not the end all be all of knowledge. HAving read the article, he makes many good points, but in my case, I'll load to 30, as I have the confidance in my skills to handle my firearm.

Of course, if you want to prove me wrong, you could always pay my way into his class, to see how I do...

- I dont have to prove you wrong at anything. If you want to load 30 go for it... isnt my ass on the line.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:06:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
I could manage to load one just fine, thank you.

Pat Rodgers, while very knowledgable, is not the end all be all of knowledge. HAving read the article, he makes many good points, but in my case, I'll load to 30, as I have the confidance in my skills to handle my firearm.

Of course, if you want to prove me wrong, you could always pay my way into his class, to see how I do...



I don't think you would have much to learn at a class. Without an open mind the training would be a waste.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:40:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShackleMeNot:
I don't think you would have much to learn at a class. Without an open mind the training would be a waste.




And that is unfortunate, for a variety of reasons.

The way I see it, I can learn something from just about everyone I meet. It might be that I don't want to do something the way they do it, but at least I am observing and considering before I make my decisions.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:31:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShackleMeNot:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
I could manage to load one just fine, thank you.

Pat Rodgers, while very knowledgable, is not the end all be all of knowledge. HAving read the article, he makes many good points, but in my case, I'll load to 30, as I have the confidance in my skills to handle my firearm.

Of course, if you want to prove me wrong, you could always pay my way into his class, to see how I do...



I don't think you would have much to learn at a class. Without an open mind the training would be a waste.



I'm sure I could learn a lot from a tactical stand point, such as different carry tactics, offensive stragities, and the like.
But as for down loading a mag, I just don't see the point.

If you cannot load a full mag with the bolt foreward, fine, download. But I don't have that problem.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:24:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:47:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 3:55:31 PM EDT by Hydguy]

Originally Posted By Rich_Lucibella:

If you cannot load a full mag with the bolt foreward, fine, download. But I don't have that problem.

It's not an issue of being to load the mag; it's a question of being able to to it every time, under stress, in combat, with limited mobility and or use of limbs, in unusual position. Anyone who can argue that they've never failed to get a mag into a rifle or handgun simply hasn't trained enough.

The practice of downloading AR mags dates back to Vietnam....by guys who have seen action and seen Mr. Murphy in action (yes, even Marines!). Pat Rogers happens to be one of those guys. So is Clint Smith. Additionally, between the two of them, they've probably trained and observed well over 10,000 individuals (private, LE and Mil). Like so many others at their level they recommend downloading from experience; and they personally employ the practice.

Does that make them "right" and you "wrong". Of course not. It's just that when guys like Pat, Clint and a whole host of others recommend a specific Manual of Arms. most of us listen.
YMMV
Rich



Neither Pat Rogers or Clint Smith were involved with training me in boot camp.

If it was such a big deal, I'm pretty sure that the Marine Corps whould have let me know. I've never had a single training session that directed Marines to download the mags.

The only thing that we were taught to do to a mag was to tap the the back of the mag in such a fasion as to ensure that the rounds were all fully seated to the rear.

A lot of the malfunction issues were related to the lack of training on weapon maintainance, and the lack of cleaning equipment. The mags work fine if the mag and springs are in good working order.

BTW, the military could change the stripper clips to hold 9 rounds each, and that way you could just load 27 rounds in a mag, and not have to 'download'. They wouldn't have to redesing that ammo can to get rid of the 4 spare rounds, and I don't think that it would be a big deal to mage the stripper clip a tad shorter.

If the military wanted to have you to carry fewer rounds that what it was designed to, the ammo would be set up to match.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:42:34 PM EDT
This is going nowhere.


Fast.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:11:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Backstop:
This is going nowhere.


Fast.



Amen!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:50:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:52:01 AM EDT by Rich_Lucibella]
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 9:43:47 AM EDT
In a previous post you admit that there are things that a class could teach you that you weren't taught in the Corps. Did you mean that or is the Corps’ way the only way?

Like I wrote earlier, bring an open mind or don't bother.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 10:11:44 AM EDT
"Yes Pat"

Move out and draw fire

Link Posted: 1/21/2006 1:09:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ShackleMeNot:
In a previous post you admit that there are things that a class could teach you that you weren't taught in the Corps. Did you mean that or is the Corps’ way the only way?

Like I wrote earlier, bring an open mind or don't bother.



We trained at the platoon, squad, and fire team level in the Marine Corps, not on the individual tactical level with weapons, so from an individual tactical level, I could learn some things.

However, I don't think that I would learn anythin 'new' in the immideate action drill area. Tap, Rack, Bang seems to work just fine. (The newer S.P.O.R.T.S is a longer term for the same drill).

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:10:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Rich_Lucibella:

If you cannot load a full mag with the bolt foreward, fine, download. But I don't have that problem.

It's not an issue of being to load the mag; it's a question of being able to to it every time, under stress, in combat, with limited mobility and or use of limbs, in unusual position. Anyone who can argue that they've never failed to get a mag into a rifle or handgun simply hasn't trained enough.

The practice of downloading AR mags dates back to Vietnam....by guys who have seen action and seen Mr. Murphy in action (yes, even Marines!). Pat Rogers happens to be one of those guys. So is Clint Smith. Additionally, between the two of them, they've probably trained and observed well over 10,000 individuals (private, LE and Mil). Like so many others at their level they recommend downloading from experience; and they personally employ the practice.

Does that make them "right" and you "wrong". Of course not. It's just that when guys like Pat, Clint and a whole host of others recommend a specific Manual of Arms. most of us listen.
YMMV
Rich



Neither Pat Rogers or Clint Smith were involved with training me in boot camp.

If it was such a big deal, I'm pretty sure that the Marine Corps whould have let me know. I've never had a single training session that directed Marines to download the mags.

The only thing that we were taught to do to a mag was to tap the the back of the mag in such a fasion as to ensure that the rounds were all fully seated to the rear.

A lot of the malfunction issues were related to the lack of training on weapon maintainance, and the lack of cleaning equipment. The mags work fine if the mag and springs are in good working order.

BTW, the military could change the stripper clips to hold 9 rounds each, and that way you could just load 27 rounds in a mag, and not have to 'download'. They wouldn't have to redesing that ammo can to get rid of the 4 spare rounds, and I don't think that it would be a big deal to mage the stripper clip a tad shorter.

If the military wanted to have you to carry fewer rounds that what it was designed to, the ammo would be set up to match.



+1

If it is such a big deal then why hasn't a new mag been made that is just a bit longer to do away with having to down load?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:12:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 8:13:59 AM EDT by DixieKnight]
On a different note. I just witnessed the finally throw of Gunsites death when they endorsed a POS S&W 1911.

But there is still Thunder Ranch.
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