actually i didn't say i had used kicks in a fight, a instructor i know has. they aren't part of wing tsun anyway. but thats not the point.

yet again, you avoid the fact that you can learn a lot from many martial arts. wt has a lot that is valuable and works well mixed with many things. i keep telling you i practice a mixed martial arts, you dont seem to catch onto that.  

you also seem to think that i care what you think about me- i dont.
call me a liar- feel free.
call me an idiot- i hope it makes you feel good.
i laugh every time you do.

at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that every art has things in them that can be useful to know. most people fight MMA and wt has some very important concepts in it. you can learn them elsewhere because numerous other arts teach them as well, but they are very much central to wt and for that reason i advocate taking it to strenghthen any art taken. but whatever, you're a tool to anyone who disagrees with you.

Quoted: yet again, you avoid the fact that you can learn a lot from many martial arts. wt has a lot that is valuable and works well mixed with many things. i keep telling you i practice a mixed martial arts, you dont seem to catch onto that.

Oh, you promote MMA now???
It didn't appear that way last time around, whereas you told others that BJJ wasn't trained full force if you didn't snap arms, and I belive you indicated that one wouldn't need to the ground once you had mastered Kung FU... you even said that you could break a!eg w/one kick.
jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=113&t=383852&page=13

Man, and thank God for these videos… it’s the best laugh ever!

www.wingtsunwelt.com/german/videos/media/ggm/leungting_04.mpg
www.videos.wingtsunwelt.de/media/blitz/blitzdefence_04.mpg
www.WingTsunstuff.mpeg
www.video/wt/KeithKernspetch.mpeg
www.video/wt/PortugueseWTguy.mpeg
www.austinwt.com/multimedia/awt_wsd_high.wmv

Stating 'you avoid the fact' is absurd; members asked to see your knuckles, and you refuse... but offer no explanation. I'll post a pic if you will?

Oh, and Emin Boztepe   (the Wing Tsun legend) called… he needs help waxing his bikini line.

actually, i said repeatedly that BJJ is wonderful and is worth looking into. your selective reading gets in your way.

i also said that i practiced a mixed martial arts.  i've always said that. quick quotes for education

i alluded to this fact in my earlier post when i responded saying that you dont know what i practice. my martial art is a blend of several

besides, different framed people need different styles. what works for you may not work the same for me. its because our bodies are differently, thats why so many styles have developed. different ways of thinking, different ways of approaching the same solution. this thread is about martial arts, i suggest that everyone study a variety and then combine them in how you feel most comfortable. each person has their likes and dislikes and their own unique style. along with that they also have their best abilities because of their form, build, and mindset. mix them togeather and its almost positive that no martial art is going to be the perfect fit for anyone.

there are two instances from early on in the conversation- page 10, one of the bottom more posts
and again on page 11

In fact, i've even said clearly i dont practice a pure form of any martial arts.

and yet again on page 11

and seriously, for the last time- my training isn't strictly limited to kung fu

*shrugs* call me a liar again, i really dont care. you make me laugh.

i do suggest you read that thread again. the fact of the matter is that no one said BJJ isn't wonderful, it is. no one said it is useless, it isn't. they said that other martial arts, including WT, have a place in many other styles. even one of the people who argued against me conceded that WT had served him wonderful in boxing although much of the basics he had to abandon. you even quote a guy at the start of page 10 when you say "great post" or whatever it was talking about how useful trapping is in WT. i'm not sure you actual read his post to be honest. i also praised BJJ as effective and said i was looking at getting back into studying it.


anyway. talking to you is slightly more productive than clawing my eyes out with a spoon. i'm done.

i suggest anyone who is interested in looking into martial arts experiement with , and persue multiple arts and find what fits your style the most.  make sure you look at groundfighting, and at control. learn about distance when you stand because unless you are out to get in a fight, you wont need it unless attacked. understand being able to defend yourself and the area around you. different people have different styles because there are different needs, different bodies, and different abilities. as such, its all means to the same end- effective defense. the more you know, the better you are. the more comforatable you are, the better you are. i suggest you learn the why as well as the how because it enables you that much more in a fight.

Selective reading, that’s funny considering how you so conveniently forgot to mention Wing Tsun this time around; you took a real pounding beating because of it last time… so I can’t blame you.

Punching clay pots filled with sand to harden your knuckles... puh leeze! Don’t you know the right way to do it is to dip them in tar and then roll in broken glass, that's what Frank Dux did!!!

However, don’t go away mad... just go away.

Out of curiousity,
where did the "all fights go to the ground" stat come from.

All fights dont go to the ground, only 95% of them do.
:)

Quoted: All fights dont go to the ground, only 95% of them do. :)

That's true....for the remaining 5% never last more than the first couple whacks.

IMHO wrestling is the best martial art, or at least the one most likely to get you out of a situation when your triple threat roundhouse flying butt squirrel kick misses and you someone lands a good old fashioned cowboy punch in your nose.  Amazing what you can do with gravity.

But wtf do I know...I ain't Chuck Norris.

Quoted: All fights dont go to the ground, only 95% of them do. :)

and you got that info form what source?

I don’t know if I would call wrestling a fighting art, most of the wrestlers I've seen on their 1st night Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are lost, always turning their backs to their opponents, and trying to post up on limbs that allow for easy submissions. This quickly changes in a few weeks, and they then start to advance more rapidly than their peers.

One of my best friends (whom I finally talked into coming to BJJ) wrestled for 8 years, and is stout for his size. He got DOMINATED by one of our 13 year old 85 lb white belts... choked, arm-bared, it was funny. I think he tapped 5 times in 90 seconds.

In a street fight the 100lbs my friend had on the kid would have kicked his ass, but it just goes to show the science of BJJ and how effective it is against the un-trained.

The most interesting part to me was how tired I would get while loosing... yet the more skilled student would hardly break a sweat, always thinking 3 moves ahead.

And, yeah I know that allot of what applies rolling on the mat... doesn't apply in a scrap, but if it goes to the ground, and I'm betting it will most of the time, someone better know Judo, or BJJ, or something other than wrestling or they are getting choked out.

You can't fight when you brain shuts down due to hypoxia.

Quoted: Quoted: All fights dont go to the ground, only 95% of them do. :) and you got that info form what source?

Not sure about him, but I got mine from:

Quoted: Quoted: All fights dont go to the ground, only 95% of them do. :) and you got that info form what source?hr

If I may ask; what 'source' are you looking for... do you have a 'source' that shows otherwise?

Thats why I asked?
I bounced for awhile and I thought it was lower. Maybe 75 to 25.
The more experienced didn't go down unless they had too. Too many boots in the face.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All fights dont go to the ground, only 95% of them do. :) and you got that info form what source? If I may ask; what 'source' are you looking for... do you have a 'source' that shows otherwise?

I'll show you mine after you show me yours big boy

Quoted: Not sure about him, but I got mine from: hair.gif hr

Ed Zachery!
have
How many fights have you been in? The dozen or so I have been in, in addition to the probably 75+ I’ve seen… every time it went to the ground except for when it was broken up or someone was KO’d, you're kidding right?

just curious where you got your info.
My experience which seems to be similar to your shows different data.

Quoted: just curious where you got your info. My experience which seems to be similar to your shows different data.

Where's a Thunderdome when you need one!

Quoted: just curious where you got your info. My experience which seems to be similar to your shows different data.

OK, so your experience is different... then explain; you are either knocking everyone out, or they are knocking you out, please explain.

If that is the case, how so... what did you use?

Quoted: Quoted: just curious where you got your info. My experience which seems to be similar to your shows different data. Where's a Thunderdome when you need one!

haha...
hey, maybe they all do. I don't want to go down unless forced to. I would think that an experienced fighter should be able to control whether on not he has to go down, right? unless everyone that is fighting is an experienced fighter, which is usually not the case. Its just been my personal experience in a bar, that the better fighters don't go down unless forced to.

Quoted: what did you use?

I think it was one of those wing chung ninja death touches...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: just curious where you got your info. My experience which seems to be similar to your shows different data. Where's a Thunderdome when you need one! haha... hey, maybe they all do. I don't want to go down unless forced to. I would think that an experienced fighter should be able to control whether on not he has to go down, right? unless everyone that is fighting is an experienced fighter, which is usually not the case. Its just been my personal experience in a bar, that the better fighters don't go down unless forced to.

Fighting experience comes in my many forms.  Boxers make the worst wrestlers....etc and vice versa.

No one ever wants to go down unless forced too....guess why!  Gravity and leverage do amazing things.  But then again so does a few knuckles across the face.

Quoted: Quoted: just curious where you got your info. My experience which seems to be similar to your shows different data. OK, so your experience is different... then explain; you are either knocking everyone out, or they are knocking you out, please explain. If that is the case, how so... what did you use?

seriously....I've seen punchfests that went on for 30 or 40 seconds before they quit...got pulled apart
or one guy finally went down. I've seen pool cues break over guys heads and they turned around and
beat the crap out of the guy. I've seen guys go down and get a good stomping from the 5 or 10 buddies....the ground is great one on one...but it doesn't always have to go there nor should it if you can aviod it.

Yes... wrestlers are nasty bastards

and they smell bad too

Quoted: Yes... wrestlers are nasty bastards and they smell bad too

HEY


<sniffsniffsniff>

Well boys… it’s been fun, but this is where I get off.

I’ve put many friends and sparing partners down while they were doing their best to stop me.  I can’t stand to see another 13 page conversation about how if you are ‘tough enough’ you don’t go to the ground. And if you are 'tough enough' you can fight off multiple attackers.

I’ve taken down a 6’7” 325lb former College linebacker who put money on it that I couldn’t do it. It was actually easier than I thought it would be, I even trapped his left arm on the way down for a modification of an arm lock I learned from Vandry.

It’s a simple matter of balance, Judo and wrestlers understand this… but Ninja masters, and Kung Fu movie buffs don’t. If you know of a way to train a good take down defense, stop wasting your life posting in here… go open a school, you would get rich.

I simply don’t have the patience to TELL you this… go find a Judoka or Brazilian… they will be happy to SHOW you.

If you think you can fight multiple attackers, you are an idiot.

And, since I'm fairly confident I can take you down person, what good does it do to argue about it a forum?

*cancelling subscription, however somebody please IM me when Frank Dux posts!*
Peace~

One's expereince in regards to fighting and the situation they find themselves in are the two largest factors in determining where a fight will end up.  Also factor in a large portion of luck.

Quoted: Selective reading, that’s funny considering how you so conveniently forgot to mention Wing Tsun this time around; you took a real pounding beating because of it last time… so I can’t blame you. Punching clay pots filled with sand to harden your knuckles... puh leeze! Don’t you know the right way to do it is to dip them in tar and then roll in broken glass, that's what Frank Dux did!!! However, don’t go away mad... just go away.

he gave a list and asked which he should persue. i answered. not a fan of direct responses? *shrugs*

your choice i guess.

thats what i gave him though. there was some other good responses in there outlining why some arts should be avoided and why some should be examined more in depthly. i gave my take over all which is the same take that i repeated in the other thread.

i wouldn't consider my viewpoint 'beaten' by any means. my viewpoint is that multiple arts all have something to offer. like i showed you, i've always said that and thats what i practice. you continue to ignore that time and time again and insist that isn't what i said. its kind of sad really, you want to be right so bad.

you also continue to say that i dont value ground fighting. this is actually not true by any means and i have continually stated that ground fighting is important because many fights go to the ground. what type of fight, who is fighting, where the fight is- all depends on if it will/can/ or should go to the ground.

you feel confident you can beat me up. good. i'm happy for you. i hope your life dreams are full-filled because of this.

Damn, some people have a chip on their shoulder...

Quoted: Damn, some people have a chip on their shoulder...

lol...I guess so!

Now that I'm reflecting, my feelings are also hurt, I'm gonna write Goatboy and cancel my subscription.

Quoted: Quoted: Damn, some people have a chip on their shoulder... lol...I guess so! Now that I'm reflecting, my feelings are also hurt, I'm gonna write Goatboy and cancel my subscription.

I knew that if I could drag the thread down onto the ground I'd win!

Judo - Seinan Judo Dojo
                    or
       - Sawtelle Judo Dojo  (closer to where you live)    

Muay Thai - IMB Academy  (Gardena, CA)

Judo was derived from Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, as too was Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  The exception is that Judo teaches throwing techniques (as opposed to take-downs) in addition to traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu.  You should still be standing while the other guy is laying on the ground.  

You could not go wrong learning Judo and/or Muay Thai.  I recommend both.  Good luck!

F.Y.I. - Most Judo Schools in So. Cal. the instructors teach on a voluntary basis.  

Quoted: Damn, some people have a chip on their shoulder...

haha..he prolly does alot of fighting in bath houses

Quoted: Quoted: Damn, some people have a chip on their shoulder... haha..he prolly does alot of fighting in bath houses

now now....don't be that guy Ravyn

Just lightening Frances up alittle bit

Quoted: Just lightening Frances up alittle bit

Quoted: I knew that if I could drag the thread down onto the ground I'd win! hr

bastiat = that’s some good stuff there bro, but don’t hold your breath that any of the Ninja masters in here will so much as even get it... my guess as to the reason why is they are such trained killers that their hightened level of awareness prevents them from observing reality. You see, when you spend all of your time learning faggot Kata’s and how to properly kick in the ari, or the masterful art of breaking boards, there is nothing you need to learn past that.

Guys, I really tried to cancel my thread, but the system kept sending them too me. And, I must admit, I have a problem. It is a personal problem, I have considered therapay for it.. and that problem is that I LOATHE ‘martial arts’ as we know it.

I hate them, I hate the people that study them… I hate the people that like Kung Fu movies, and I hate anyone that has never been in a fight.

What I like however, is the literal equivalent to a light-saber in a knife fight… such has been the case w/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You see… this is the antidote for Segal and Bruce Lee, this proves that we have been fed a lie.

There are a LOT of men in here, who will claim to have been in X # of fights… but I can assure you, I am a bigger ass-hole than your average 5 ARFCOM members combined, and can guarantee that I’ve been busted in the mouth a few times. Justly so… perhaps, but I can tell you there is no greater satisfaction than a TKD/Kung Fu/Aikdio/(insert your ‘art’ here) master sqeuling into submission… or what I really like, is to watch their arms flop around when I choke them out.

And, here is something I dug up on the net… Rickson Gracie kicking Hugo Duarte's ass in a REAL fight on the beach, Royce Gracie is in the clip also!
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-688501305175209645

What I still wait for is an explanation as to why nobody ever won the Gracie challenge???

I mean think about it; $100K… you would think that someone would have been interested in debunking BJJ because of the arrogance of the Gracie family.

So... why did they never pay out?

I know why… it’s because Frank Dux, Segal, Jet Li, and Neo never showed… that would have been the end of those pesky Brazilians and their poor fighting art, which is useless as fights never go to the ground… that’s why!!!!

Judo, the only good Judo I’ve trained is Mexican Judo;
“Ju-don’t know if I gotta knife… ‘Ju-don’t know if I gotsa gun… essay~”

Hey guys… all joking aside, I think I am going to start Dim Mak!!!
HA HA HA HA!!!!

You guys can soak your heads for all I am concerned, BJJ is king… you either know it, or you haven’t been choaked out yet.

Get a life!!!!!

On a more reasonable note... use what you think is best.  Just be sure to address areas such as ground defense, weapon defense, and include training with resisting opponents

Yes... use Kung Fu, Aikido, or Krap Maga, or any other multi-level marketing art if you think it is best!!!

Shark = Kung Fu, Ninja masters, Tae Kwon Do(nt) jackasses, et al.
Octopus = skilled Brazilian Jiu-jitsu figher.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7004909622962894202
Not quite the outcome everybody predictied... is it?

Kung Fu is for losers! Boards don’t punch back!

Thing I see here is the BJJ guys saying THEY can kick anyone's ass by taking them to ground and that this is the only way to go.  I have a problem with that:  unless you're being an asshole and getting otherwise good guys to fight you, MOST of the time if you have to defend yourself it will NOT be against someone trained in martial arts.  So who cares if a BJJ practicioner can defeat a karateka by taking him to the ground?  The karateka isn't training to fight a BJJ practicioner, he's training to fight Joe Sixpack that got drunk enough to think he can beat up on anyone he wants; or some crackhead mugger that wants to strongarm a likely mark.
So does it really make that much difference what martial art you choose?
Unless you're a MMA competitior or a military operator, I think not.  Just commit yourself to it and learn it well.  And don't be an asshole.

Quoted: Thing I see here is the BJJ guys saying THEY can kick anyone's ass by taking them to ground and that this is the only way to go.  I have a problem with that:  unless you're being an asshole and getting otherwise good guys to fight you, MOST of the time if you have to defend yourself it will NOT be against someone trained in martial arts.  So who cares if a BJJ practicioner can defeat a karateka by taking him to the ground?  The karateka isn't training to fight a BJJ practicioner, he's training to fight Joe Sixpack that got drunk enough to think he can beat up on anyone he wants; or some crackhead mugger that wants to strongarm a likely mark. So does it really make that much difference what martial art you choose? Unless you're a MMA competitior or a military operator, I think not.  Just commit yourself to it and learn it well.  And don't be an asshole.

"So does it really make that much difference what martial art you choose?"
Absolutely, it does... Karate, Chinese theatrical arts, TKD, etc are all based on theory and lies.
Those kicks into the air not only leave you with no muscle memory of kicking someone in the head, but if you get into a scuff and the adrenaline starts pumping, it's hard to even get your legs to move fast.

In fact, I'll put my money on a boxer from a bad neighborhood over the karate kid any day... and the boxer is in trouble if he allows the gap to be closed. Once you are on the ground you are done, unless you know how to roll. It's like going into the water with a shark, you are in his world... your fate is in his hands.

This is the reason Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu works so well, nothing else is trained at full force.
But even then, it's not about strength... in fact at Vandry's the joke is that if you are tiring down quickly you are doing it wrong.

Go watch what happened during the 1st 4 UFC's, little Royce was dominating guys, none of them lasting more than 30 or 40 seconds. You can be old, blind, small, and weak... but if you’ve been instilled the necessary skills, almost chess like moves, of BJJ; you stand a chance, even with a 250lb man on an adrenaline dump. If this weren’t true guys my size 6'3" 235 would not have been tapped out by women and teenage boys when we started out.

Look at Royce fighting Akebono, who weighed 427lbs... Many thought Royce would NOT be able to use the guard, or mount. However, the fighter didn’t understand the intricacies of BJJ, and posted up on 1 arm which allowed Royce to triangle his shoulder and just rolled till it popped. If something worked better than Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu... I would love to know about it. Even MT guys get taken down to the ground in MMA fights, and they the best fighters in the world.

That is why UFC had to change the rules... it was a business decision to keep viewers’ coming back because, as American's, we are stupid NASCAR fans... which really isn’t bout racing, it's about a show. Brazilians have been proving their system works for 100 years in Vale Tudo... it’s Portuguese for ‘anything goes’ look it up.

Quoted: "So does it really make that much difference what martial art you choose?" Absolutely, it does... Karate, Chinese theatrical arts, TKD, etc are all based on theory and lies.

Which brings us back to the bottom line:  Don't be an asshole.
Some people just refuse to take that advice.
Dude, if BJJ really IS the best, then you're right to pursue it just as diligently as possible, because I can see lots and lots of people wanting to take a swing at you, for the rest of your life.

Quoted: Which brings us back to the bottom line:  Don't be an asshole. Some people just refuse to take that advice. Dude, if BJJ really IS the best, then you're right to pursue it just as diligently as possible, because I can see lots and lots of people wanting to take a swing at you, for the rest of your life.

I was hoping to have left enough room for you to maneuver there... and you came through.
I didn't want to get defensive, becuase I knew you were talking about me.

You see, if I was an ass-hole, I would have said "that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. In one sentence, you compliment yourself... you say that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is good if you really need to learn how to fight, but that Karate (whatever), will serve you well so long as you enjoy it and don’t get into trouble."

You sound like a liberal idiot arguing gun-control... honestly. And, that is before I point out that you are arguing both sides, did you notice that?

Your comment reminds me of an episode of Politically Incorrect w/Bill Mauer, where the red-haired comedienne (I think Elaine, not sure) was trying to infer that Nugent, Hesston, and other pro-gun people were paranoid and if you walked a higher path you would never need a gun, or to lock your door, etc. This is your point, is it not?

It's a piss-argument and nothing but an ad-hominem attack against me… & it’s probably all you are interested in, not discussing things like an adult. Get over yourself.

TWO MAN ENTER - ONE MAN LEAVES!
TWO MAN ENTER - ONE MAN LEAVES!
TWO MAN ENTER - ONE MAN LEAVES!

Quoted: I was hoping to have left enough room for you to maneuver there... and you came through. I didn't want to get defensive, becuase I knew you were talking about me. You see, if I was an ass-hole, I would have said "that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. In one sentence, you compliment yourself... you say that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is good if you really need to learn how to fight, but that Karate (whatever), will serve you well so long as you enjoy it and don’t get into trouble." You sound like a liberal idiot arguing gun-control... honestly. And, that is before I point out that you are arguing both sides, did you notice that? Your comment reminds me of an episode of Politically Incorrect w/Bill Mauer, where the red-haired comedienne (I think Elaine, not sure) was trying to infer that Nugent, Hesston, and other pro-gun people were paranoid and if you walked a higher path you would never need a gun, or to lock your door, etc. This is your point, is it not? It's a piss-argument and nothing but an ad-hominem attack against me… & it’s probably all you are interested in, not discussing things like an adult. Get over yourself.

I have two suggestions for you:
Adult Literacy Classes.
Anger Management Courses.

Oh, and an enema.

Quoted: I have two suggestions for you: Adult Literacy Classes. Anger Management Courses. Oh, and an enema.

You are the one getting upset here, and justly so as you realize you are arguing both sides.  But, fools are so easily enraged, and like I said, “It’s just like a liberal arguing gun control!” Get mad, call names, and then take your ball and go home.

Thanks however for the comment on my literacy, just understand that doing so does not make you Oscar Wilde. In case nobody has told you, you aren't that smart. In fact, I don’t think I've encountered someone so dim-witted, and yet narcissistic in 3 posts.

Oh, and I'll take your advice about the enema; however do you mind if I mail you the waste, it seems as if you are running a bit low on brain power.

Quoted: You are the one getting upset here

I am?  How interesting.  Ever hear of the term "projection?"

Can you please make a point!

If not, at least answer some questions:
Is this what you do all day, hijack threads, treating those you have never met rudely?
Seriously, how many forums do you post in, isn't this what you do for fun; that must be boring?
Does having the last word mean something too you, regardless of how futile, or erroneous the comment?

Oh, and before you start critiquing my grammar, try running your posts through a spell checker... it will help you.

Quoted: Quoted: I have two suggestions for you: Adult Literacy Classes. Anger Management Courses. Oh, and an enema. You are the one getting upset here, and justly so as you realize you are arguing both sides.  But, fools are so easily enraged, and like I said, “It’s just like a liberal arguing gun control!” Get mad, call names, and then take your ball and go home. Thanks however for the comment on my literacy, just understand that doing so does not make you Oscar Wilde. In case nobody has told you, you aren't that smart. In fact, I don’t think I've encountered someone so dim-witted, and yet narcissistic in 3 posts. Oh, and I'll take your advice about the enema; however do you mind if I mail you the waste, it seems as if you are running a bit low on brain power.

1. You need some lessons in whatever martial art takes the chip off your shoulder. You have issues.
2. You're here for about two weeks and you're lecturing everyone how YOU study the one, true martial art and everything else is crap. Who the hell are you, exactly?
3. If this is the way you act in the real world, no wonder you got in a lot of fights. You strut around like an 18 year old with a mullett and an el camino.

You're beginning to smell like a troll.

He is only a 12 year old kid playing tough in front of his computer. He has probably been watching too much TUF on spike and now his testosteron is trying to reach adult level.
He will eventually be IP banned.

Quoted: Can you please make a point!

Oh son, I believe I've MADE my point.