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Posted: 12/23/2005 12:24:18 PM EDT
I have been working out for sometime now. I am putting 100 minutes on the treadmill (a little over 5 miles) and 20 minutes or so into lifting. In addition my pedometer says I'm putting on about 5 miles at work from walking around. I'm losing the battle and actually putting on weight. Any ideas on how I can switch up my routine to make it more effective? Keep in mind I do this around 5-6 days a week and I just cannot spare any more time for exercise. I am hesitant to jog unti I lose some more weight. Im around 200 lbs now. I don't drink regular pop anymore and try to keep it to a beer a day (except saturday night).

Any ideas?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 6:57:08 PM EDT
You'll have to be more specific. I would have thought that you where replacing the fat with muscle and thus the no weight loss. But you are running a lot you won't be adding muscle. You need to get a body fat measurement. They are more accurate than the stupid scale.

Describe your eating habits and more about yourself. We can offer better advise if we know more.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 2:32:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 2:36:21 AM EDT by chokeu2]

Originally Posted By Gorto:
I have been working out for sometime now. I am putting 100 minutes on the treadmill (a little over 5 miles) and 20 minutes or so into lifting. In addition my pedometer says I'm putting on about 5 miles at work from walking around. I'm losing the battle and actually putting on weight. Any ideas on how I can switch up my routine to make it more effective? Keep in mind I do this around 5-6 days a week and I just cannot spare any more time for exercise. I am hesitant to jog unti I lose some more weight. Im around 200 lbs now. I don't drink regular pop anymore and try to keep it to a beer a day (except saturday night).

Any ideas?



I can tell you for certain that you are overtraining. The work that you are doing on the treadmill is counter productive to building muscle, believe it or not. And the "lifting" that you are doing is not an effective plan for building muscle either.

I'd be glad to help if you'd like. I earn part of my living by training amatuer and professional fighters. First, 5 or 6 days a week is too much time spent working out. The adage, "less is more" really applies to your fitness training. However, if you are in a routine, you can still go for five days a week if you like. You will need to change things up fairly drastically.

Lets start with your diet. Tell me about it. Before you answer that, I'll say that you'll need to start drinking about a gallon of water a day. That really is not a lot, I know it may sound that way, but its really not; especially if you're working out correctly. You need to be eating about every 2 or 3 hours a day, clean, well balanced meals. Use the one gram of protien per pound of body weight rule of thumb. Proper protien intake will increase your metabolism, and decrease your appetite, all the while supplying your muscles with the fuel that they need to grow and rebuild. Also, the more muscle you build, the faster your body will burn fat. Muscle will also work to increase you metabolism.

The combination of your diet and workout that you have now is forcing your body to burn muscle for fuel (as caused by overtraining), and retain fat. Yes, that sounds backwards, but it really is not once you understand what affects you method of working out is having on your body.

You need to consider lifting for approximately one hour a day x 3 days per week. You can do some anaerobic cardio twice per week as well. The lifting will be high intensity lifting aimed at conditioning the muscles that you do have and increasing the neuromuscular efficiency in your current muscle mass.

As for the cardio, as mentioned, for better, long lasting and consistant weight loss you need to do anerobic work. Anaerobic work uses immediately available glycogen to convert into energy, and it raises your resting metabolic rate. All this means is that you do not have to be running for long distances and always doing high intensity work to maintain a high metabolism, to keep weight off. A good example is the physique of a sprinter, and the body of a marathon runner. Who looks better? well, unless you're into skeleton physiques, then you know that sprinters look better. So... For cardio, if you're interested I'll post of a basic interval training workout that will absolutely SUCK while you are doing them. But I can promise you that if you do them honestly, at 100% you will absolutely start seeing results in about two weeks.

Also, if you are interested in a very intensive lifting program that will take about an hour, three times a week, I'll put that up too. But you'll need to really commit to doing something like this. The workout is set up in a calculated manner, and it works for my fighters. As examples, take a look at this guy.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/chokeu2/Nate.jpg

His name is Nate Marquardt, and he's one of my guys. My team places a HUGE emphasis on physical conditioning, not just fighting skill.

Here is phase one of the plan that we use pre-fight. It is a three part workout. Each phase is 4 - 6 weeks long. The first phase is a combination of endurance and toning. The second aimed at conditioning, the third and final is strengthening, and the most brutal. However, before you can use this workout, you need to determine your one rep max in every exercise. The rep schemes and exercises are not arbitrary. There is a method to the madness.

Legs:
Squats
Sets= 4
Reps= 16 (yes, 16 reps, you will find religion...)

Leg Extentions
Sets= 4
Reps= 16 (Extentions after squats is the safest way to do them, as your legs will be warm and loose. And it is smart to always start with the heaviest compound movement first.)

Hamstring Curls
Sets= 4
Reps= 15

Adductor (aka good girl bad girl machinesorry ladies...crude, I know...)
Sets= 3
Reps= 12

Abductor
Sets= 3
Reps= 12

Calf Raises
Sets= 4
Reps= 12
(Consider doing this in with only your socks on, and use a COMLETE RANGE of motion)


Day Two
Back and Bi's
Wide Grip Pull Downs (DO NOT go behind the neck!!!)
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Dumbell Rows
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Close Grip Pulldowns (Palms toward face)
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Barbell Curls
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Hammer Curls
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Shrugs
Sets= 3
Reps= 12


Day Three
Chest and Tri's
Bench
Sets= 4
Reps= 10

Military Press (DO NOT go behind the head!!)
Sets= 4
Reps= 10

Cable Crossover
Sets= 4
Reps= 15

Dumbell Rear Delt Shrugs
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Dumbell Lateral Raise (shoulders)
Sets= 3
Reps= 15

Dumbell Front Press
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Reverse Grip Cable Pulldowns
Sets= 3
Reps= 12

The sets and reps are not done for the sake of repitition and sheet volume of exercise. In this case, for endurance and muscle contractibility. If you're a fighter you know the long periods of muscle contraction and rapid, continual need for explosiveness. As the entire plan progresses, the sets and reps will decrease; as the exercises will become increasingly Olympic in style.

Do your absolute best to maintain strict form. Also, do not do any forced reps. If you get to the point where you cannot do another rep in good form by yourself, stop. Your goal is to complete the entire exercise with good form, at a consistant weight. Once you can do the entire exercise with good form, all reps, add 5% to the exercise the following week. Allow 1.5 minutes between sets. And three between exercises.

Again, try this out for 4 - 6 weeks. I'll put up the other phases time permitting.

Here is a link to a One Rep Max Calculator:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/1rm.htm
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 2:42:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 4:01:55 PM EDT by Sixgun357]
I will tell you something, 100 minutes on a treadmill is too much. you should work on walking faster. cover more distance in less time. 30 minutes cardio, 30 minutes lifting. is what it should take for a well rounded work out. If you can not get your cardio done in 30 minutes then you are not going hard enough.

I like running half marathons (13.1) shooting for 26.2 in the fall, MOst of my runs are between 40 and 60 minutes, with the exception of Saturday witch is 90 minutes at the most.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:34:18 AM EDT
The best running for muscle growth is not long distance running. The best way to lose weight is to raise your resting metabolic rate, and that is done by anaerobic conditioning as detailed earlier via lifting and interval training.

Here is a basic example of an interval session. It is much shorter than a "marathon", and more effective for muscle growth and long term weight loss.
Every sprint in this cycle is done at 100% effort, everytime, for the entire duration.
sprint 1: 1:30
rest 1: 1:15
sprint 2: 1:15
rest 2: 1:00
Sprint 3: 45 seconds
rest 3: 30
Sprint 4: 30

Walk it off... Have a orange juice/water mix drink to replenish glycogen stores. No gatorade... Once your stomach settles down, have a protien shake or a clean, high protien meat or fish.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:28:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 4:40:34 PM EDT by Sixgun357]
Jumping into a sprint workout or a heavy lifting routine is not the best idea you can end up injured. The best plan is to ease into it.

I would start with 30 minutes on the treadmill trying to cover between 2 and three miles thats between 4 and 6 miles and hour. Maybe start at 4 mph and every quarter mile increase the speed by .2 mph. until you reach 30 minutes. The next day try going a little farther.

Then get your self some 15, 20, and 25 pound dumbells or a range of weights similar. I started with a 3, 5, 8 pound set. then got 15, 20 and 25 later. Do a set of pushups then right after a set of situps, go back and forth for 4 to 5 sets. Then pick up a set of dumbells and do alternating curls and behind the head tricep press. So you end up doing a set of biceps and then a set out triceps. You might have to change weights between exercises and sets. Again 4 to 5 sets. Then take a few minutes rest and start on military dumbell press and bent over rows. Same way go from one exercise to the next. Your not looking to do this with heavy weights, just working on getting the movements down and learning how you body feels. Shoot for 4 to 5 days a week. This is not something to get you bulked up or cut. Your just looking to increase your general over all fitness.

I am a distance runner, I look to my treadmill and miles on the road for my general fitness. I do this weight routine 2-3 days a week. Some people concentrate on weight lifting for most of thier exercise I dont thats why I give it to you in this point of view.

Right after your workout get a good protien shake into you. I have have one right after I run if I am not going to eat dinner with in 45 minutes of my run.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:11:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
You'll have to be more specific. I would have thought that you where replacing the fat with muscle and thus the no weight loss. But you are running a lot you won't be adding muscle. You need to get a body fat measurement. They are more accurate than the stupid scale.

Describe your eating habits and more about yourself. We can offer better advise if we know more.



I don't think I have been replacing too much fat with muscle. The lifting has toned up my arms some which is good. Where could one get a body fat measurement done?

Anyhow, more about me and my eating habits.

I usually get up and have a bowl of cereal and a can of the V8 tomato juice. I try to alternate this breakfast with three scrambled (microwaved) eggs and the tomato juice. Not too much variation besides that. A drink coffee at work, anywhere from one to three cups depending on the day. Midmorning snack of a piece of fruit or a cup (12 oz?) of yogurt. Wont lie, an occasional scone is eaten. Four days a week I eat lunch in. I eat those weight watchers microwave meals for lunch with a piece of fruit and a diet Pepsi. Sometimes I have leftovers with the fruit and pop. One day a week we go out and eat. Generally eat poorly when I go out. At work I was drinking about 40 oz of water a day. Usually one glass in the morning and one in the afternoon. My wife has been successful losing weight using weight watchers. She cooks healthy food, we eat lots of oven cooked chicken. I was watching my food intake with weightwatchers and wasn't really going too far overboard with the eating. I try to limit alcohol to one beer a night or none. Sometimes we eat bad stuff for dinner like pizza but we don't usually make a habit of it. On saturdays we usually go out and eat and I have around a six pack to drink. I know this is bad news but I try to overindulge only one day a week.

My eating isn't great, I get the feeling that that lunch I eat out and eating on saturday is doing me in. I hate to stop drinking totally because I make my own beer.

My metabolism is a bitch, hasn't been right since I left school. Under high stress conditions my metabolism spikes. I can eat and drink much more with no ill effects. I recenly returned to school to get another degree and managed to lose 15 lbs in about 8 days. I was only putting on an hour on the treadmill. I quit exercising and my weight stabilized.

Anyhow, hope this helped fill in some blanks
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:43:42 PM EDT
Thanks for the feedback. I am hesitant to jump into anything too hardcore right away. I have the beginnings of tendonitis in my right hand so I have to be really careful that I dont damage it further. I got a set of gloves that help keep my wrists straight. That has allowed me to begin lifting again.

I was getting the feeling that The treadmill time was excessive. I was worried that if I toned it down I might start to put weight back on. I thought of it as (X hours on the treadmill)==(X calries burned. )
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:14:00 AM EDT
Good response.
Current overtraining and having a bad diet are hurting you right now. That is why your progress has been reveresed, and if not headed off at the pass, will only worsen.

That being said, if you're interested in the plan that I posted, do not make the mistake of thinking that you're "jumping into" something too hard core. A plan like that is actually anything but "too hardcore". In fact, it will be easier on your body than what you are doing right now because at this point, you are putting too much of a strain on your body to make progress. That plan, or a plan like it is purpose designed to mitigate overtraining, and to allow for other types of training.

My fighters can train 3 or 4 days a week, lift, and still do some interval work; all without overtraining. This can be done because the diet is good, and the plan itself is not intensive enough to induce an overtraining situation, but it is intense to the point of solid musculature gains.

As to what you posted about your diet... The weight watchers stuff is actually pretty good stuff. But you really need to increase your protien supplementation. That will give a HEALTHY boost in your metabolism, when combined with the plan that I listed above, or one like it. You also should really get rid of the "sodas", or "pop"; whatever they are called. They contain preservatives which will have an effect in your body that can induce water retention, and it can in the end be metabolized into sugar; which in turn goes to your gut.

Cutting back on the treadmill is not going to make you put on unhealthy weight. It will actually be better for you and your weight loss goals if you do cut back. The long distance stuff isn't good for muscle retention. Good for weight loss, but it is also good for muscle loss. No offense to long distance guys. But that type of workout isn't geared for anyone who wants to put on dense muscle. When I say "dense muscle" I am not talking bodybuilder size, etc. But rather a guy who looks like say... A Brad Pitt, or even better! Take another look at the pic of one of my fighters that I posted in my thread above. That kind of physique is built in the weight room, and doing anaerobic interval work.

You just need to simply decide which path you'd like to take.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:17:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 7:17:58 AM EDT by corwin1968]

Originally Posted By chokeu2:
The best running for muscle growth is not long distance running. The best way to lose weight is to raise your resting metabolic rate, and that is done by anaerobic conditioning as detailed earlier via lifting and interval training.

Here is a basic example of an interval session. It is much shorter than a "marathon", and more effective for muscle growth and long term weight loss.
Every sprint in this cycle is done at 100% effort, everytime, for the entire duration.
sprint 1: 1:30
rest 1: 1:15
sprint 2: 1:15
rest 2: 1:00
Sprint 3: 45 seconds
rest 3: 30
Sprint 4: 30

Walk it off... Have a orange juice/water mix drink to replenish glycogen stores. No gatorade... Once your stomach settles down, have a protien shake or a clean, high protien meat or fish.



I'm going to incorporate this general technique into my exercise program but on a stationary bike.

Are the rest intervals a total stop or are they performing the exercise at an easy level (i.e., walking if you are running for the sprints)?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:27:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By corwin1968:

Originally Posted By chokeu2:
The best running for muscle growth is not long distance running. The best way to lose weight is to raise your resting metabolic rate, and that is done by anaerobic conditioning as detailed earlier via lifting and interval training.

Here is a basic example of an interval session. It is much shorter than a "marathon", and more effective for muscle growth and long term weight loss.
Every sprint in this cycle is done at 100% effort, everytime, for the entire duration.
sprint 1: 1:30
rest 1: 1:15
sprint 2: 1:15
rest 2: 1:00
Sprint 3: 45 seconds
rest 3: 30
Sprint 4: 30

Walk it off... Have a orange juice/water mix drink to replenish glycogen stores. No gatorade... Once your stomach settles down, have a protien shake or a clean, high protien meat or fish.



I'm going to incorporate this general technique into my exercise program but on a stationary bike.

Are the rest intervals a total stop or are they performing the exercise at an easy level (i.e., walking if you are running for the sprints)?



Using the bike is a great idea bro. Typically, when guys come off a sprint, I tend to have them walking around, for their rest period; but only because I find that if they stop moving, they will bend over at the waste and compress their lungs. Wrong answer... So, you could simply keep your legs moving on the bike to keep the blood moving, sure; but no exertion level on the rest break.

The idea is to explosively condition the body, which is a natural state of movement for the human body in certain circumstances.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:25:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gorto:
I don't think I have been replacing too much fat with muscle. The lifting has toned up my arms some which is good. Where could one get a body fat measurement done?

Anyhow, more about me and my eating habits.

I usually get up and have a bowl of cereal and a can of the V8 tomato juice. I try to alternate this breakfast with three scrambled (microwaved) eggs and the tomato juice. Not too much variation besides that. A drink coffee at work, anywhere from one to three cups depending on the day. Midmorning snack of a piece of fruit or a cup (12 oz?) of yogurt. Wont lie, an occasional scone is eaten. Four days a week I eat lunch in. I eat those weight watchers microwave meals for lunch with a piece of fruit and a diet Pepsi. Sometimes I have leftovers with the fruit and pop. One day a week we go out and eat. Generally eat poorly when I go out. At work I was drinking about 40 oz of water a day. Usually one glass in the morning and one in the afternoon. My wife has been successful losing weight using weight watchers. She cooks healthy food, we eat lots of oven cooked chicken. I was watching my food intake with weightwatchers and wasn't really going too far overboard with the eating. I try to limit alcohol to one beer a night or none. Sometimes we eat bad stuff for dinner like pizza but we don't usually make a habit of it. On saturdays we usually go out and eat and I have around a six pack to drink. I know this is bad news but I try to overindulge only one day a week.

My eating isn't great, I get the feeling that that lunch I eat out and eating on saturday is doing me in. I hate to stop drinking totally because I make my own beer.

My metabolism is a bitch, hasn't been right since I left school. Under high stress conditions my metabolism spikes. I can eat and drink much more with no ill effects. I recenly returned to school to get another degree and managed to lose 15 lbs in about 8 days. I was only putting on an hour on the treadmill. I quit exercising and my weight stabilized.

Anyhow, hope this helped fill in some blanks





Your eating habits aren't good. But then you know that so I won't beat you up about it. I did know a guy once who worked out heavily nearly every day. He never made any decent gains because his diet was regularly pizza and beer. Good food is very important.

If you have a decent size gym in your area they can measure your body fat %. Anything less than 10% is great for guys. Above 20% and you are obese(not just fat). There are calipers that you can buy at GMC to measure your body fat too. They aren't highly accurate but will be accurate enough to give you an idea. There is also a bathroom scale that you can buy that will measure your body fat percentage. You step on the scale in bare feet and it measures your body fat by sending a current through your body(it doesn't hurt...you won't even notice it). The reason that body fat measurements are better is that different body styles will dictate what your weight is. If you have a naturally big frame, you will never be the "idea" weight. I know a few girls who are VERY attractive but they weigh around 160 or so. They are good looking and aren't fat but they just have big frames. They will NEVER be that perfect 110 lbs. But their body fat % is low.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:16:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chokeu2:
Good response.
Current overtraining and having a bad diet are hurting you right now. That is why your progress has been reveresed, and if not headed off at the pass, will only worsen.

That being said, if you're interested in the plan that I posted, do not make the mistake of thinking that you're "jumping into" something too hard core. A plan like that is actually anything but "too hardcore". In fact, it will be easier on your body than what you are doing right now because at this point, you are putting too much of a strain on your body to make progress. That plan, or a plan like it is purpose designed to mitigate overtraining, and to allow for other types of training.

My fighters can train 3 or 4 days a week, lift, and still do some interval work; all without overtraining. This can be done because the diet is good, and the plan itself is not intensive enough to induce an overtraining situation, but it is intense to the point of solid musculature gains.

As to what you posted about your diet... The weight watchers stuff is actually pretty good stuff. But you really need to increase your protien supplementation. That will give a HEALTHY boost in your metabolism, when combined with the plan that I listed above, or one like it. You also should really get rid of the "sodas", or "pop"; whatever they are called. They contain preservatives which will have an effect in your body that can induce water retention, and it can in the end be metabolized into sugar; which in turn goes to your gut.

Cutting back on the treadmill is not going to make you put on unhealthy weight. It will actually be better for you and your weight loss goals if you do cut back. The long distance stuff isn't good for muscle retention. Good for weight loss, but it is also good for muscle loss. No offense to long distance guys. But that type of workout isn't geared for anyone who wants to put on dense muscle. When I say "dense muscle" I am not talking bodybuilder size, etc. But rather a guy who looks like say... A Brad Pitt, or even better! Take another look at the pic of one of my fighters that I posted in my thread above. That kind of physique is built in the weight room, and doing anaerobic interval work.

You just need to simply decide which path you'd like to take.



I think I'm going to fire up the program you described and see what I can do with it. You posted the interval training information. How many total sets do you do in a workout session? Also, what kind of protein supplements should I look at? Just more lean meat like chicken or the stuff you get in the kegs at GNC?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:37:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 1:12:53 PM EDT by Gorto]



Here is phase one of the plan that we use pre-fight. It is a three part workout. Each phase is 4 - 6 weeks long. The first phase is a combination of endurance and toning. The second aimed at conditioning, the third and final is strengthening, and the most brutal. However, before you can use this workout, you need to determine your one rep max in every exercise. The rep schemes and exercises are not arbitrary. There is a method to the madness.

Legs:
Squats
Sets= 4
Reps= 16 (yes, 16 reps, you will find religion...)

Leg Extentions
Sets= 4
Reps= 16 (Extentions after squats is the safest way to do them, as your legs will be warm and loose. And it is smart to always start with the heaviest compound movement first.)

Hamstring Curls
Sets= 4
Reps= 15

Adductor (aka good girl bad girl machinesorry ladies...crude, I know...)
Sets= 3
Reps= 12

Abductor
Sets= 3
Reps= 12

Calf Raises
Sets= 4
Reps= 12
(Consider doing this in with only your socks on, and use a COMLETE RANGE of motion)


Day Two
Back and Bi's
Wide Grip Pull Downs (DO NOT go behind the neck!!!)
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Dumbell Rows
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Close Grip Pulldowns (Palms toward face)
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Barbell Curls
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Hammer Curls
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Shrugs
Sets= 3
Reps= 12


Day Three
Chest and Tri's
Bench
Sets= 4
Reps= 10

Military Press (DO NOT go behind the head!!)
Sets= 4
Reps= 10

Cable Crossover
Sets= 4
Reps= 15

Dumbell Rear Delt Shrugs
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Dumbell Lateral Raise (shoulders)
Sets= 3
Reps= 15

Dumbell Front Press
Sets= 4
Reps= 12

Reverse Grip Cable Pulldowns
Sets= 3
Reps= 12

The sets and reps are not done for the sake of repitition and sheet volume of exercise. In this case, for endurance and muscle contractibility. If you're a fighter you know the long periods of muscle contraction and rapid, continual need for explosiveness. As the entire plan progresses, the sets and reps will decrease; as the exercises will become increasingly Olympic in style.

Do your absolute best to maintain strict form. Also, do not do any forced reps. If you get to the point where you cannot do another rep in good form by yourself, stop. Your goal is to complete the entire exercise with good form, at a consistant weight. Once you can do the entire exercise with good form, all reps, add 5% to the exercise the following week. Allow 1.5 minutes between sets. And three between exercises.

Again, try this out for 4 - 6 weeks. I'll put up the other phases time permitting.

Here is a link to a One Rep Max Calculator:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/1rm.htm



How does the one rep max caclculation fit into the above sets? What % do I use?

Thanks.

Edit to fix quote.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:46:14 PM EDT
OK I can see that the problen is your diet... this is how I eat most days...
breakfast- bowl cherrios and a protien shake...
lunch- a sandwich of some kind and a salad....
dinner about 1 qt of beer....
I allso like to snack on candie and pastries throughout the day...
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:20:59 AM EDT
Gorto,
sorry about leaving that detail out!

You'll need to take a day at the gym and figure out your one rep max. So go to each exercise, choose a weight, and then record the number of reps that you did for that particular exercise. Then go back to the 1RM calculator and pull down 60% of your 1 rep max.

You'll need to do the exercises at 60% of your 1 rep max. As you are able to complete the exercise in good form, no cheating, add 5% to the exercise.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 3:18:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 3:19:32 PM EDT by H46Driver]

Originally Posted By chokeu2:

I can tell you for certain that you are overtraining. The work that you are doing on the treadmill is counter productive to building muscle, believe it or not. And the "lifting" that you are doing is not an effective plan for building muscle either.



I disagree that he is overtraining. Overtraining is a state that is almost impossible to achieve. The body has several safeguards against it. I do agree with you that what Gorto is doing is counterproductive to building muscle - if that is his goal. It is not one that he mentioned.

I don't train fighters nor am I a professional athlete. I have been overweight, sometimes borderline obese, in my past. I have also been a competitive cyclist and am now a middle of the pack, non aquatically adapted triathlete.

Gorto - what are your goals and what is your current fitness level?


My guess is that first of all you need to adjust your diet - probably not a teenager anymore and those calories add up.

You also need to set some goals. Is it just to look better, compete in a race of some distance, pack on muscle, or be a better weekend warrior? That answer will start you on your way.

Next question is what kind of exercise do you enjoy because you are most likely to be consistent doing something you enjoy. At different times in my life my favorite exercise has been lifting weights, riding a bike, XC skiing, playing tennis, or running.

In any case, you need to set some realistic goals, assess your eating habits, and start by doing some kind of activity that you like and build from there
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:48:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:48:30 AM EDT by chokeu2]
I hear ya, and I respect your opinion but he is overtraining. Overtraining is not almost impossible to achieve, I am not sure who would tell you such a thing. Overtraining will occur when there is too much activity and the body is placed in a catabolic state, where gains will reverse themselves. There is a very large number of people out there that train, who are doing too much and seeing strides that are secondary to what they'd like to achieve. As for me, I do train professional fighters, professionally.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:19:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chokeu2:
I hear ya, and I respect your opinion but he is overtraining. Overtraining is not almost impossible to achieve, I am not sure who would tell you such a thing. Overtraining will occur when there is too much activity and the body is placed in a catabolic state, where gains will reverse themselves. There is a very large number of people out there that train, who are doing too much and seeing strides that are secondary to what they'd like to achieve. As for me, I do train professional fighters, professionally.



Evidently we are using two different definitions of "overtraining". The state that a lot of people will refer to as overtraining has the following symptoms: elevated resting heart rate, prolonged muscle soreness, fatigue, and possibly muscle breakdown.

As an endurance athlete (admittedly very different goals than fighters), the symptoms I described above are a stress reaction of the body to prevent what I call overtraining (sometimes referred to as "parasympathetic overtraining". Symptoms here are a lowered resting heart rate, increased stress hormones, and a decrease in testosterone production. To get to this state, one has to have the mental and physical toughness to train hard through the symptoms in the above paragraph. The overwhelming majority of people (including me) are simply incapable of pushing through the body's defense mechanisms I listed in my first paragraph.

The symptoms in para 1 are not that hard to trigger, but can be cured by a couple of days to a week off. When you get to para 2, recovery time may be measured in weeks or months.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:38:44 AM EDT
You are correct in that the crux of the disagreement is the end result desired from the training. It is good that our brother has options in training styles. And we will have to agree to disagree on who can and will reach the overtraining condition that you described secondarily. It is not that hard to cause a drop in testosterone levels via training too much, or incorrectly at all.

I do not train "endurance" atheletes, like runners such as yourself. I do train lifters and fighters, which is obviously anaerobic in nature. I will not pretend to know how to train a long distance runner. But I do know how to help someone lose weight effectively and safely, my fighters have to do it all the time. Fighters do not train like runners, the training for a long distance run is far to catabolic for someone that needs to sustain a decent amount of muscle mass capable of explosive performance for a prolonged period of time.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:51:09 AM EDT
I'll weigh in on this one, but take it with a grain of salt. First of all, something doesn't add up with what Gorto described in his initial post. There is NO WAY that a healthy person can put on weight with that kind of exercise regimen - provided you are being honest about your diet. You would have to consume alot of food to put on weight. My first suggestion is to see a physician and look into getting a complete blood profile to rule out a metabolic disorder or a thyroid problem. Second of all, do you want to lose weight, or increase muscle mass? If weight loss and muscle tone, ie: general fitness is your goal, I would stick to 20-30 minutes of weight training 3 days per week, and 30-45 minutes of aerobic cardio 4-5 days per week. You can achieve RELATIVELY rapid weight loss with this type of program. For muscle mass, strength, and power (there is a difference between strength and power), I might recommend something like intense weight training every other day, with interval cardio training about 3 days per week. Weight loss will be slower, but you will be adding more lean muscle mass. You decide which is right for you. And yes, you can overtrain with both training regimens and rule #1 is figure out how to listen to your body - I can't tell you how to do it, you just have to figure that one out for yourself. DO NOT OVERTRAIN.

But, as I initially said, I'm not convinced you don't have an underlying medical condition that is causing you to gain weight in spite of your activity level. But, you may also have the genetic makeup that is very slow to respond to any stimulation. Let us know how it shapes up.

Blake
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:08:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By chokeu2:

I can tell you for certain that you are overtraining. The work that you are doing on the treadmill is counter productive to building muscle, believe it or not. And the "lifting" that you are doing is not an effective plan for building muscle either.



I disagree that he is overtraining. Overtraining is a state that is almost impossible to achieve. The body has several safeguards against it. I do agree with you that what Gorto is doing is counterproductive to building muscle - if that is his goal. It is not one that he mentioned.

I don't train fighters nor am I a professional athlete. I have been overweight, sometimes borderline obese, in my past. I have also been a competitive cyclist and am now a middle of the pack, non aquatically adapted triathlete.

Gorto - what are your goals and what is your current fitness level?


My guess is that first of all you need to adjust your diet - probably not a teenager anymore and those calories add up.

You also need to set some goals. Is it just to look better, compete in a race of some distance, pack on muscle, or be a better weekend warrior? That answer will start you on your way.

Next question is what kind of exercise do you enjoy because you are most likely to be consistent doing something you enjoy. At different times in my life my favorite exercise has been lifting weights, riding a bike, XC skiing, playing tennis, or running.

In any case, you need to set some realistic goals, assess your eating habits, and start by doing some kind of activity that you like and build from there



My goals are to lose weight and gain some muscle. I'm not so much worried about the number on the scale, just want to lose some fat. I'm hoping that this will help with my shooting (from a standing position). Also hoping to look better for the wife and the upcoming (2 years out) class reunion.

As far as current fitness level I don't know. I can walk forever, thats for sure. I do like walking. My muscle developement is poor except for my legs. I injured my right wrist/hand so I had to avoid any undue stress like lifting weights.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:48:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gorto:

My goals are to lose weight and gain some muscle. I'm not so much worried about the number on the scale, just want to lose some fat. I'm hoping that this will help with my shooting (from a standing position). Also hoping to look better for the wife and the upcoming (2 years out) class reunion.

As far as current fitness level I don't know. I can walk forever, thats for sure. I do like walking. My muscle developement is poor except for my legs. I injured my right wrist/hand so I had to avoid any undue stress like lifting weights.



OK, good info here. Enjoying walking is good. It can be a social activity - much more so than some other aerobic workouts. As far as your fitness goals - they seem pretty normal and should not be too hard for you to achieve with some moderate effort on your part.

Based on your first post, you seem to be getting a decent amount of exercise which is good. If you are gaining weight with your current routine your diet is probably a problem. You aren't a kid any more and need to adjust your eating habits. It doesn't need to be drastic, but it needs to be consistent.

If you drink soda, switch to diet, tea, or water. If you use milk, drop one fat category - whole to 2% or 2% to 1%. Try to eat vegetables with at least 2 meals/day and cut back on your refined carbs (bread, rice, pasta, crackers) to 1-2 servings/day.

Do you eat a lot of sweets? If you eat more than one per day, cut to one. If you eat only one, cut to every other day. Slightly shrink your serving sizes. Bottom line is whittle down your caloric intake, but don't deprive yourself.

Regarding weight lifting - I would increase it to 30-45 minutes 3 times per week. Work around your injury and stick to basic mass building exercises. 1 or 2 exercises for 3-4 sets each per body part should be plenty.

As far as your aerobic work goes I think that you should add some intensity. Try to go from your current speed (@ 3 mph or 20 minute miles) to 4 miles/hour or 15 minute miles. My parents (in their mid-60s) generally cover 4 miles in just under an hour so you should be able to do it too. Throw in some running when you feel ready. I wouldn't sweat running at 200 pounds, just keep it slow and on soft surfaces. I tip the scales at just under 190 (5' 11") and will run 17 miles tomorrow. I also like to mix it up and throw in biking, swimming, tennis, and hiking to keep things fresh. Take your wife along on your walks. Maybe enter a local race - several offer (race) walker categories.

The most important thing is to make the changes gradually so that you don't feel like you are making a huge shift. Consistency is the key. Good luck and let us know how things go.
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