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Posted: 6/26/2003 1:34:38 PM EDT
Chest/tri: flat bench flat fly tricep extension incline bench incline fly mule kick back/bi: pullover dumbell curl rear lat raise concentration curl dumbell row crunches Legs: leg extension calf raise leg curl side leg raise week 1 chest/tri M & F back/bi T & T legs W week 2 back/bi M & F legs T & T chest/tri W week 3 legs M & F chest/tri T & T back/bi W Can I group shoulders on the legs day? I know they don't go together, but I don't know wher else to work the shoulders in. Will it kill me to do my shoulders the day before chest? what about doing them the day after back? I have also considered: chest/tri M run T legs/shoulders W run T back/bi F Then rotate through doing each type a different day of the week. I do 3 sets of each, 6-10 reps per set, increase weight after I can do 3 sets of 10. 30 seconds between sets, 60 between each excercise. Count of 2 on the exertion, hold for 1, count of 4 on the relax. Las set is done to failure while keeping good form. Thoughts?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 2:17:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 2:17:26 PM EDT by greenmountainpatriot]
I NEVER train chest/tri, back/bi...it is counter productive. I try to ISOLATE each muscle group as much as I can, keep sets to a min and really focus. Sometimes I even break up chest/shoulders to separate training sessions. Chest/Shoulders Back/Hams ARMS (bi/tri/forearms) Quads Toss in calves/abs wherever you like. What's up w/ your leg training? Any reason squats/hacks/leg press are not included? Not trying to rip on you...just wondering if you needed to avoid those movements, Sir.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 5:49:38 PM EDT
No reason, but I work out at home and don't have a leg press machine, and squats & lunges have always hurt my back & knees.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:47:10 PM EDT
If you are just starting out the first routine will quickly lead to overtraining. Try this one first, for about 3-4 months:
I have also considered: chest/tri M run T legs/shoulders W run T back/bi F
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But I would do a full body routine for the first few months, but that has what worked for me, everyone is different. And you really ought to consider adding squats. Gotta squat if you want to add mass...
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 1:43:26 AM EDT
If that works for you---fine! We all have routines that we have individualized to suit our needs.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 2:20:37 PM EDT
Yes, individualization is key, BUT your workout has serious flaws. For a beginner or intermediate (been sweriously lifting less than 2 years) lifting Chest/Tri, Back/Bi is fine. But, some of your exercises are out of order. You need to do all your compound movements(chest and back) first, then move on to the isolation, single joint exercises for the bi/tri. Like ths: Chest/Tri: Flat bench Incline Bench Flat Flys Incline flys Tricep extension Mule kick Back/Bi: Pullddowns or pullups- (you NEED a movement like this. Rows alone do not work the lats hardly at all.) dumbell row pullovers( I'd scrap these and add cable rows) rear lat raise dumbell curl concentration curl See the difference?
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 2:23:18 PM EDT
Oh, and I have to agree with KC, go with this split: Chest/tri-M run-T legs/shoulders-W run-Th Back/bi-F -good luck
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 4:08:55 PM EDT
Thanks guys, I'll start the split with the running next week. Thanks also for the tips about how to group the excercises. Unfortunately I don't have a cable set-up or a pullup bar, but I'll try to rectify at least one of those shortly. I just have a bench that adjusts w/ a barbell rack & leg attachment. I'm thinking if I get a welder I can build a pulldown attachment without too much trouble. I've been working out off and on for about a year this last go around. Since March or so I've been hitting it one way or another every day after work. I have alternating results, and lately I've been trying to find what works for me.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 5:07:08 PM EDT
"For a beginner or intermediate (been sweriously lifting less than 2 years) lifting Chest/Tri, Back/Bi is fine." Just curious what this is based on? Why would you want to restrict your muscle growth and strength increases for the first two years by training ass-backwards? Tri's are already competely exhausted if you are training chest to the full potential...bi's are fried from secondary work during back...train them all together an you end up overtraining two pretty small muscles.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 6:08:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By greenmountainpatriot: "For a beginner or intermediate (been sweriously lifting less than 2 years) lifting Chest/Tri, Back/Bi is fine." Just curious what this is based on? Why would you want to restrict your muscle growth and strength increases for the first two years by training ass-backwards? Tri's are already competely exhausted if you are training chest to the full potential...bi's are fried from secondary work during back...train them all together an you end up overtraining two pretty small muscles.
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I'm curious why you'd say this. The chest/tris back/bis split is pretty common I thought. I remember hearing it when I worked out in college too. Have you really never heard of this, or do you just not agree with it? The idea, as I understand it, is to work the same muscles on the same day. Since the tris are getting hit when you do chest, you go ahead and throw them in on that day. Since the bis are getting hit when you're doing back, you go ahead and throw them in on that day. What I have been doing for the past two weeks is a different group on each day, something like this: [b]mon[/b] flat bench flat fly incl. bench incl. fly [b]tues[/b] pullover rear lat raise dumbell row crunches [b]wed[/b] leg extension leg curl calf extension side leg lift [b]thurs[/b] overhead press upright row side raises crunches [b]fri[/b] dumbell curl tricep extension concent. curl mule kicks This just hasn't seemed to do shit. I can't really come up with any other excercises to do, and the workouts seem to be over before they really start. The idea behind grouping stuff was to make them last longer.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 6:18:23 PM EDT
"The idea, as I understand it, is to work the same muscles on the same day. Since the tris are getting hit when you do chest, you go ahead and throw them in on that day. Since the bis are getting hit when you're doing back, you go ahead and throw them in on that day." That is exactly why is it not productive, Norman74 :) Let me set it up like this...you are pumped up for chest, going to break every record you've ever had...BAM!! You nail 100lbs db presses for 10 clean reps! 315lbs incline bench! WOO-HOO! Guess what? After breakin all of those personal records, how are you going to have the strength to toss back a 120db to do seated french presses? Answer.....YOU WON'T. You won't have the energy to train your tri's the way you should because they have already been tapped...that's my whole point. Doesn't matter if you are "toning", bodybuilding, powerlifting...it applies straight across the board. You can do what you like, don't get me wrong. I'm just going by years of personal expirience on myself and training others. I don't have a degree so I apply practical application to training.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 6:46:25 PM EDT
Hello! I guess the problem that I have with *not* grouping triceps with chest is that your triceps will not get very much rest if you work them as a secondary muscle group during the chest routine and then 1-2 days later work them as a primary muscle group. They will live in a perpetual state of exhaustion and that will lead to overtraining. Same with quads, hams, and calves since hams and calves contribute to the quad exercises (squat). I guess I don't envision focusing on personal records for non-major movements. I would classify squat, deadlift, overhead press, pullups, and bench press to be major movements. I would clasify tricep dips, tricep presses, bicep curls, etc., to be minor movements included simply to help achieve gains in the major movements. I have had very little problem with tricep exhaust when resting for 4 minutes before changing exercises (or before changing bodyparts). At 2 minutes, 80% of an average person's anaerobic energy stores have been replenished. At 4 minutes, 95% have been restored. MP906 is correct about rearranging the exercises. In general, move from the center of the body outward, from major movements to non-major movements, and from compound exercises (multi-muscle group) to isolation exercises (single muscle group). Overall, whichever works best will be individual to you and it won't work best for very long. P.S. What's a mule kick? Is that where you stand on your hands and knees and kick your leg backwards (supposedly a bodyweight glute exercise)?
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 2:47:25 AM EDT
The is no perpetual state of exhaustion since you rest between the training days. There is no need to train a body part more than once every 8-12days IF you are training it properly. If you can't rest up in 8days, better head to the doctors [:D]
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 3:06:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By James4: P.S. What's a mule kick? Is that where you stand on your hands and knees and kick your leg backwards (supposedly a bodyweight glute exercise)?
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[img]http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Triceps/DBKickback.gif[/img] What I was referring to as a mule kick, some call a "kickback".
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:33:55 AM EDT
green, Personally, now-adays I follow your principle, sort of Here's my split: M- Chest/Back T-Off W-Legs Th-Shoulders/Arms F-Off S-Off S-Off But, I lifted for years for football and we used a split like Norman's. I know several guys at the gym who have been using a split similar to Norman's for decades that are huge and strong. I don't think it is a bad way to train. James has a point as well. You work your triceps on Chest day, shoulder day, and tricep day. So, it can be easy to overtrain the tricep if you train each of those groups on different days of the week, in-turn working your triceps 3 days per week. I choose to pair triceps w/ shoulders because I only do one exercise for the shoulders that also works the triceps, military presses. I do not think my triceps are suffereing because of my shoulder workout that precedes my tri workout. green, I'm curious how many days do you rest b/n chest and arms?
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 8:42:06 AM EDT
Depends on my training. Sometimes I can go 4-5days between chest and arms before I feel it is time to train them again. It is far easier for me to overtrain them when they are lumped together as opposed to breaking them down.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:39:05 AM EDT
That's good. I thought from your split that you worked arms two days after chest. That would hurt. I tend to agree w/ your method, but I'm not sold on the notion that the other way can't result in massive arms.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 12:23:58 PM EDT
Oh, there are certainly other ways for some folks...look at Arnold when he was younger and doing marathon training sessions. I had a good friend that would hit biceps about 14-16 times PER YEAR and I'd put him up against anyone in terms of shape, strength and stamina. He even used to do 1rep sets [:D] Anyways...I hate "debating" training. I'd rather do it like this where we just kick ideas around. Good thread no matter what ya end up doing! Rob
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 8:52:38 AM EDT
I think it will all work so long as you're diligent and listen to what your body is telling you. Try one way and if it works, use it until it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, shelve it and try it again some other time. Charles Poliquin recommends changing workouts after 6 sessions (!). You might end up doing both! James
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 2:25:45 PM EDT
I just did the first day of chest/tri. It rocked! Chest is all pumped, tris are already aching a bit. I have to admit that by the time I got done with the chest stuff I was worrying about the tris, but I could really feel the burn. I think the chest excercises work as warmup sets for the tris. So tomorrow I'm going to try and run (bad lungs so running is an adventure). Then Wed should be shoulders/legs if my legs aren't completely blown out from the first day running. Even if they are I'll just do shoulders & abs Wed. Thanks for all the tips guys. Please see my thread on [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=113&t=193647]time between sets/excercises?[/url] I didn't want to hijack this thread but the info is related since I mentioned it in the opener to this thread.
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