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Posted: 6/26/2002 8:33:55 AM EDT
i have always been told not to mix creatine with a caffeinated bi carbonate drink(soda pop). does this come into play if you have consumed the caffeine or creatine an hour or so prior to consuming the other. my ultimate orange drink mix is an excellent pick me up in the morning pre workout and the creatine is post workout,while at work i may consume 1 caffeinated drink hours later. does this matter or am i just an anal bastard. rescue93
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:06:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:09:34 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 6:07:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2002 10:06:04 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
My post will seem elementary compared to Ed's, but here goes anyway... It's simple logic: Creatine helps hydrate the muscle which aids in recovery, etc. Caffeine is a diuretic, which means it flushes out water. The two oppose each other, so all medical mumbo jumbo aside, it wouldn't make sense to combine them. Kind of like Superman and Lex Luther! Ha, ha. [red]edited to correct your ?spelling.I hope you don't mind since I did not change your message.[/red]Ed Sr [blue]Note:Sometimes simpler(like your explanation)is better![:)]Ed Sr.[/blue]
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:04:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2002 10:27:43 AM EDT by TxDoc]
(You may read about hypo- and hypertonic solutions, also. Carbonated drinks are hypotonic and draw fluid into the gut to equalize osmotic pressure gradients and will dehydrate you, also). Most scientific studies try to look at muscle total creatine (TCr), phosphocreatine (PCr), and ATP measured via muscle biopsy. Capillary samples are measured for blood lactate. Most studies I see report no significant differences in power output or blood lactate existed across all tests. The creatine condition result in a significant increase in the TCr/ATP ratio, but no significant increase in the PCr/ATP ratio. This is likely due to the lack of a significant effect of creatine supplementation on the PCr/ATP ratio. Research that has shown an ergogenic benefit has mainly involved repetitive bouts of high-intensity exercise. This is likely due to an enhanced recovery between bouts of exercise, caused by an enhancement of PCr resynthesis due to higher concentrations of free creatine within muscle tissue (one study suppots the increased concentration of free creatine in muscle tissue due to supplementation, since a significant increase in the TCr/ATP ratio was observed). This would delay fatigue and allow an individual to train harder, thus achieving better gains from an exercise program. ATP and ADP are important to understand: adenosine triphosphate (ATP) A common form in which energy is stored in living systems; consists of a nucleotide (with ribose sugar) with three phosphate groups. Adenosine diphosphate (ADP) Lower energy form of ATP, having two (instead of the three in ATP) phosphhate groups attached to the adenine base and ribose sugar. Do a search for the Kreb's Cycle and you will find more info on how ATP is formed. http://esg-www.mit.edu:8001/esgbio/glycolysis/dir.html KREB'S CYCLE Kreb's cycle : The Kreb's cycle converts pyruvate to CO2 and reducing energy (NADH and FADH2) and phosphorylated energy (GTP). 2 pyruvate + 2 GDP + 2 H3PO4 + 4 H2O + 2 FAD + 8 NAD+ ----> 6 CO2 + 2 GTP + 2 FADH2 + 8 NADH The reduced energy can be used to generate ATP using the electron transport chain in the presence of oxygen. It is a cyclic process in that oxaloacetate reacts with acetyl CoA to form citrate which starts a series of several other reactions. The final reaction in the series involves the regeneration of oxaloacetate! NAD and FAD; both are rather small nucleotide molecules that are electron carriers. FAD can transfer its reducing power to FP. The reduced and oxidized forms of NAD are not clear; thus oxidized NAD can be called => NADox; NAD+; or NAD; Reduced NAD can be called => NADred; NADH; and NADH2. Kreb's cycle steps: The three carbon pyruvate reacts whereby a carbon is lost as CO2. The reaction releases energy such that NAD+ is reduced to NADH. The remaining two carbon compound is not allowed to be free but rather binds a special molecule (coenzyme A) to form acetyl CoA.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:05:37 AM EDT
part 2 This is essentially an irreversible reaction due to the loss of CO2. This reaction is probably more than one step, considering all of the reactants. However, even to this day the intricacies of this reaction are not well understood. It is not clear in eukaryotic cells exactly what carbon form passes from the cytoplasm to the mitochondrial matrix (pyruvate? acetyl CoA? an intermediate?) The process looks very complex. The binding of CoA-SH to the two carbon molecule is probably a type of handle making it easier for enzymes to act upon it. The two carbon chain is released from acetylCoA and binds to the four carbon oxaloacetate to make the six carbon citrate ( a tricarboxylic acid) The six carbon molecule is much more manageable by enzymes. (analogy : like eating an ice cream off an ice cream stick). The two carbon molecule will eventually be totally decomposed to again regenerate oxaloacetate, the later of which can be reused again. The next reaction removes water from citrate which is followed by a reaction which adds back water!!! The purpose is to rearrange the molecule to make it more convenient to extract the energy. The next reaction releases energy to form reduced NADH. The reaction of oxalosuccinate (6 carbon molecule) to alpha-ketogluterate (5 carbon molecule) leads to the release of gaseous carbon dioxide. The next reaction again utilizes CoA-SH as a handle for one reaction. Energy is also released again as NADH. At this point we also lose the last carbon in the form of CO2. The reaction of succinyl-CoA to succinate leads to a phosphorylation of GDP to GTP. A GTP molecule can be easily converted to an ATP by one more reaction. Succinic acid to fumaric acid yields a reduced flavoprotein. This FADH2 can be passed to FPH2 and used in the electron transport chain (in the presence of oxygen) to presumably yield two ATP molecules. The final step of malate to oxaloacetate wrings out the last bit of energy (as NADH) of our original glucose. The regenerated oxaloacetate is now ready to react with another acetyl CoA and the whole vicious cycle can be repeated. Do you have a headache, yet?
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:08:21 AM EDT
part 3 Oh, the creatine and caffeine question. Not "proof", but, A group of Belgian scientists examined 9 healthy male subjects (ages 20-23 years) who were physically active but not highly trained. Before and after six days of creatine (.5 g/kg per day), creatine plus caffeine (same dose of creatine plus 5 mg/kg per day of caffeine), and placebo treatment, they found that muscle ATP concentration was the same throughout the experiment. However, phosphocreatine levels increased significantly (4%-6% in both the creatine and creatine plus caffeine groups). Knee extension torque increased 10%-23% only in the creatine group. The creatine plus caffeine and placebo groups didn't exhibit increases in muscle torque. This study demonstrates that caffeine can negate the ergogenic effects of creatine. Creatine works on the phosphocreatine and ATP systems, while possibly buffering exercise produced hydrogen protons (acid). Caffeine demonstrates a powerful stimulation for the release of epinephrine. So, theoretically, one could take both to gain more of an athletic edge. But the study in question showed that perhaps they don’t work well together. Further, it showed that maybe they actually interfere with each other. If caffeine does counteract the effect of a creatine-loaded muscle, then there is no debate. The answer? Avoid caffeine if you want your creatine to work. But it’s not this simple. And though some avoid the creatine / caffeine combo like the plague, we don’t think it’s necessary. So, while you’re here, grab a cup of coffee, add your creatine and read on. Some glaring problems are evident with the study in question. And these problems explain our mistrust of the conclusions. First, the study utilized a crossover design. In a crossover design, one group takes creatine and then switches to a placebo a few weeks later. The other group does the opposite. During each treatment performance tests are done. This design is fine in most cases because researchers don’t need to compare two different groups. Researchers can compare the same athletes (on creatine) to themselves (on placebo) a few weeks later.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:09:23 AM EDT
part 4 When a supplement has lasting effects, however, a long period has to separate treatments. If not, the effects of creatine will still be around when the subjects are using a placebo. And that’s the problem. The researchers only allowed three weeks between creatine / caffeine and placebo. We know this is too short a time to allow the study participant to “return to normal”. Subsequent studies have shown the “washout” period for creatine supplementation is, minimal, four weeks. It may be much longer. So one of the take-home messages is that creatine, once loaded into the muscle, takes about four to six weeks – or more – to be eliminated (2). If this is the case, we hope you realize that since performance tests were conducted, the treatments could have affected both testing periods. This is a great way to ensure that data from a study is, probably, meaningless. Another important factor to consider is diet. Creatine-containing foods, like steak and fish, may provide enough creatine to maintain your initial loading. After you load for a week, you may be able to maintain a creatine-loaded state with diet alone. Most have heard of “maintenance doses” of creatine that usually consist of around five grams per day. These may be unnecessary. Since the combination of a typical non-vegetarian diet and your natural production of creatine provide about two grams each day, you only need an additional two or three grams from food to stay loaded. Research shows that diets high in red meat (1.5 or 2 pounds each day) can provide this (2). But, just to be safe, we typically recommend “reloading” every few months as you may lose that super-loaded state over time.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:10:28 AM EDT
part 5 Getting back to science, if subjects remain loaded by dietary means, a crossover study might never give good results. A further example of this is evident in another creatine and caffeine study in scientific literature (3). This crossover study also showed no performance differences between groups that took creatine and caffeine together and those on placebo. But again, the washout problem rears its head. This particular study only utilized a one-week washout period between the subject crossovers. We cannot really gain any information from this study in terms of creatine and caffeine interactions. This short washout, again, may have allowed the subjects to be creatine loaded throughout the testing, even when they were performing as the placebo group. Although these two studies run counter to our advice to load your coffee up with creatine powder, you can see that a study is only as good as its design. In addition, our argument gains support from the following: In both studies, the loading of muscle with creatine was not hindered by caffeine ingestion. So if the muscle is loaded with creatine, then it should be able to perform like other creatine-loaded muscles, right? The only limiting factor is the study design. An argument can be made that perhaps the coffee caused diuresis (water loss), and that inhibited performance gain. Since it is well know that dehydrated muscles perform poorly and have lower protein synthetic rates, maybe the coffee negated the effects of creatine due to dehydration (4). But because there is no data on this, it is merely speculation. Do you find yourself being constantly dehydrated when you consume coffee? If the answer is no, then you know you are okay on this point. The debate may seem even at this point, but keep reading. In many prior studies showing creatine does better performance and increase muscle mass, creatine was administered with…you guessed it…coffee or tea! Since creatine is hard to dissolve in room-temperature beverages, researchers had been serving creatine in warm coffee and tea to ensure dissolution of the powder and to mask taste. This dissolution also makes taking creatine orally easier on subjects’ digestive systems. Since there was a demonstrated effect of creatine in these studies, the coffee must not have hindered the effects of the creatine. And although we are fairly convinced coffee does not lead to a huge reduction in the effectiveness of creatine supplementation, we have decided to do a definitive study. In collaboration with lab mates and lab director at the University of Western Ontario, we plan to look at the effects of creatine, creatine plus caffeine, creatine plus coffee, and placebo. This study should, uh, dissolve this debate, once and for all. Until the final results are in we won’t be kicking Mr. Coffee out of our lives just yet. (from Exercise Nutrition Research Laboratory at the University of Western Ontario)
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:11:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:35:23 AM EDT
thanks txdoc i will be going off cycle(creatine) starting today,when i jump back on i will lay off the caffeine. the next creatine i plan on taking will be cell-tech,which has glutamine. next question i've heard glutamine and creatine also counter act eqch other but i have seen cell-tech yeild some good results in others at the gym. rescue93
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