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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 5/15/2002 10:13:48 PM EDT
Hello. While reading-up on Boyd (father of the OODA loop), I stumbled on a factoid from Boyd regarding Napoleon's "innovations." Napoleon increased the marching pace from 70 steps a minute to 120 steps a minute. 70 steps-per-min * 60 min-per-hr * 3 feet-per-step / 5280 feet-per-mi = roughly 2.4 miles-per-hour (USMC standard is 2.5mph) 120 steps-per-min * 60 minutes-per-hr * 3 feet-per-step / 5280 feet-per-mile = roughle 4 miles-per-hour (Ranger standard) All the way back to Napoleon! (I'll bet it goes back to the Romans!).
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 8:04:00 AM EDT
And just imagine the foot care they had back then! I doubt they issued out moleskin. Not sure where you got your info. but I think those are minimum standards. The Rangers and Marines probably march faster than that on a regular basis. We do 15 minute miles, and it's not that bad.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 8:14:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2002 8:15:13 AM EDT by lurker]
in hiking circles lore has it that a hiker in good shape, moderately loaded on level ground can do 4 miles per hour (15 min mile) routinely. taking breaks, rough ground and heavier loads make for slower going. my experience with marching is that the whole column has to move at the pace of the slowest man. short guys have a shorter stride, and the tall guys have to stay with the short ones.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 8:17:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 8:19:56 AM EDT
Your average frenchman isn't making 3 feet per step. Your average frenchman of that time was about 5'6" tall, his step was probably only about 2.5 feet tops. What enabled Napoleon's armies to march far and fast was the fact that they limited their logistics train by foraging ahead. THey basically stole whatever food and provisions they needed from the people along their path. By contrast the British Army either paid for what they got along the way or dragged it along in the logistics train. The French were also famous for abusing their horses. Scouts could smell the french coming or going by the smell of rotting horseflesh from infected saddlesores and hoof rot. The British army took MUCH better care of their horses and thus their cavalry often outperformed french cavalry in speed, strength and endurance. The British Army was also able to outshoot the French by a fair margin, both in artillery and musketry. The British Thin Red Line was an aweful sight to an enemy that actually understood what they were facing.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 8:24:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By icemanat95: What enabled Napoleon's armies to march far and fast was the fact that they limited their logistics train by foraging ahead. THey basically stole whatever food and provisions they needed from the people along their path.
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that would explain why the russian "scorched earth" policy was so effective against napoleon. drink all the vodka, burn everything that cant be moved, retreat with all the portable stuff.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 8:28:57 AM EDT
[url]http://library.thinkquest.org/26602/onthemarch.htm[/url] This site says 25 miles a day. While THIS site: [url]http://www.wm.edu/CAS/classical_studies/wehutt/150Wp/JCDEMA.HTML[/url] Says they trained up to 24 Roman miles in 5 hours. That's a pace of 4.8 Roman miles per hour. There are 1680 modern yards in a Roman mile, and 1760 modern yards in a modern mile, so I figure that: 4.8 * (1680/1760) = 4.58 miles per hour. Which is pretty darn fast if its true. Especially considering that they marched in a box formation. From that first site: "When marching, the line would be set up in a box fashion. The strongest legions would march in the center. The strongest of the strongest soldiers marched at the head of the center line. The legions were called Agmen. The strongest legion was the Vanguard, going by the name Primum agmen. Surrounding the strongest legions would be the Novissimum Agmen. These were the weakest soldiers, they acted as padding in case of a surprise attack." I also ran into some Roman D&C. Just in case you need to run a formation of Romans any time. [;)] [url]http://legvi.tripod.com/legiovi/id17.html[/url] Viper Out
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 9:13:59 AM EDT
Thank God for HUMVEES![:D]
Link Posted: 5/27/2002 4:58:13 PM EDT
Hello! I was on vacation...sorry for the delay. I got the USMC standard from (let's see if I can quote it correctly)... FMFRP 0-1B (Marine Physical Readiness Training for Combat). Paragraph 3105.e.(1). Now that I review it and read down a few paragraphs, I see that the standard pace is actually 3mph but lessens to 2.5mph because of the 10 minute break after 50 minutes of marching. The standard stride length is 30 inches and the standard pace is 106 steps per minute James Fifteen minute miles equals 4mph.
Link Posted: 5/27/2002 5:15:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steelviper: While THIS site: [url]http://www.wm.edu/CAS/classical_studies/wehutt/150Wp/JCDEMA.HTML[/url] Says they trained up to 24 Roman miles in 5 hours. That's a pace of 4.8 Roman miles per hour. There are 1680 modern yards in a Roman mile, and 1760 modern yards in a modern mile, so I figure that: 4.8 * (1680/1760) = 4.58 miles per hour. Which is pretty darn fast if its true. Especially considering that they marched in a box formation. From that first site: "When marching, the line would be set up in a box fashion. The strongest legions would march in the center. The strongest of the strongest soldiers marched at the head of the center line. The legions were called Agmen. The strongest legion was the Vanguard, going by the name Primum agmen. Surrounding the strongest legions would be the Novissimum Agmen. These were the weakest soldiers, they acted as padding in case of a surprise attack." I also ran into some Roman D&C. Just in case you need to run a formation of Romans any time. [;)] [url]http://legvi.tripod.com/legiovi/id17.html[/url] Viper Out
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Good link Viper. When I was in Latin class I was taught that there were two Roman marching paces, the one you mention and the forced march. The forced march was pilatii et gladio (spears and short swords only) 50 walk at a quick march alternated with 50 run. The rest of the gear followed along with the carts.
Link Posted: 6/4/2002 6:16:10 AM EDT
I believe Napoleon did this by getting everyone to march in step. Before that, like the Romans, everyone marched out of step. Took a while to figure that one out.
Link Posted: 6/4/2002 8:08:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By James4: I got the USMC standard from (let's see if I can quote it correctly)... FMFRP 0-1B (Marine Physical Readiness Training for Combat). Paragraph 3105.e.(1). Now that I review it and read down a few paragraphs, I see that the standard pace is actually 3mph but lessens to 2.5mph because of the 10 minute break after 50 minutes of marching. The standard stride length is 30 inches and the standard pace is 106 steps per minute James Fifteen minute miles equals 4mph.
View Quote
This is not the standard for Marine Infantry Battalions. Every Marine Infantry Battalion is required to complete a 25 mile march in UNDER 8 hours. That's the way it was when I was a PVT, a SGT, and that's the way it was when I was an Officer. That comes out to 3.125 mph. Add to that the ten minute breaks, and the required pace to be a combat ready Marine Infantry Battalion is: 3.66mph
Link Posted: 6/4/2002 1:19:12 PM EDT
Comparing the old Napoleonic armies with the current ones can be a bit off. Remember that arriving IN formation, and maintaining formation were more important in those days. You fought in those massed formations, and you had to keep them formed. Moving slower, but keeping formation would be more important than arriving at an attack positon at a certain time, and launching a coordinated attack as today's military's do it. So it's tough to really compare the two. The old armies would be staying in those formations, and moving around the battlefield and fighting in those formations. Current militaries will move fast, then deploy. While the transition can be seamless today, it still occurs. Considering the requirement to maintain a fighting formation, the 2.4 MPH figure arrived at is clipping along pretty good for those days. Ross
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