My scopes are tanks,  but I still intend to put a BUIS on both my rigs. May not be needed,  but nice to know they are there just in case.  While shooting distance with irons is more difficult the need to shoot may not always be at distance. Having sights for use in case of no optic is just my thinking for myself.

If you want buis on your rifle go for it. If it's a precision rifle i see no need for them, but do as you like.

If it's a "battle rifle" and you're not in the military, law enforcement, or similar go for it.  You gotta keep your prepper mall ninja street cred up.

If it's a self defense weapon don't bother unless your scope is on a qd mount or you get offset sights. If you don't have back up sights on a rifle and you need to use it in a defensive situation, point and shoot. It will probably be under 50yds.

If your guns are toys strictly for enjoyment and recreation you don't need back-ups of any kind.  Get another gun, continue to play.

If you are in the business of having a functional firearm then you're insane not to have a back-up, either iron or optical.

I've been in combat where my optic failed.  Remove the glass, go to iron, continue to fight.  This was with a 7.62mm M21 sniper rifle (which defaults to an M14) and an M4.

It's a rifle -- no more, no less.  Precision is what you've trained for.

It's all just an act that this question even exists. Some people just do not want to spend any more money of they can help it or are willing to do almost anything to keep muh weight down.

This is about them wanting justification and not using any common sense on the matter.

Say you're out hog hunting, and your lens becomes obfuscated by mud, etc. Now, can you target a bore that is charging you?

What if you have a scope that 3-9, and a bore comes at you up close?

You don't need to break your optic to need a backup. Civilian has nothing to do with nothing unless we are going take a stroll down Fudd lane.

I thought we were talking “precision semi auto rifle” not a hog brush gun. Backups on a precision rifle or a hunting rifle are pointless unless someone is shooting AT you for a living.  If I break my scope on my hunting rifle I will call it a day and switch to a different rifle/ optic.

If you are getting charged by a hog or bear etc and your scope is muddy point and shoot.  It’s not like you are shooting 100+ yards. It will probably be inside 20-30 yards. For that matter I would draw my concealed handgun and defend myself.  You’re “fudd stuff” is not taking care of your “precision rifle”. How the hell did you break a scope or get the lens muddy?  You did so by treating you precision instrument like you grandpappy’s old 12ga!!!!

If you have a 3-9, it’s probably not a precision rifle. If you have a 3-9 and it is too close to aim at 3x and charging you; you won’t transition to irons, you will point and shoot.

It sounds to me like you would be better served by a 30/30 with only iron sights. You worry about all your self induced “fudd stuff” when fudd had it right. KISS keep it simple stupid.  You sound like a guy hunting hogs from 30-100yards; that isn’t a precision rifle job and it sounds like aren’t using one or treating it like one. It sounds like you got a wal-mart special with a scope already on it for $300. If you have a $1000+ rifle with a quality scope on it, you dont jam mud on the damn thing.

My cousin’s wife hunting dall sheep in Alaska, that’s a precision rifle job and buis would be pointless there. You trash your scope on the side of the mountain you’re done. You aren’t going to continue hunting with a set of irons at 500yds.  If a grizzly comes at you with a broken scope and you didn’t scare it away with a warning shot you point and shoot as fast as you can.

That's all just your opinion, because what you said sounds just as pointless as you claimed...which is my opinion.

Just point in the general direction and shoot it doesn't work like that. A semi with no irons even for just a back up, might as well stay at home and not have a rifle at all.

Try to actually aim a a moving target coming at you from 20 yards. You shoulder the rifle point and shoot until the threat stops.

I’m not saying don’t get backup irons if you want. That’s what is great about this country. You can do what you want. You can say what you want.

Unless you are being shot at, there is no reason to put buis on a precision rifle. A defensive carbine, hell yes get them.  After my stamp comes back, my 8.5” 300blk will have buis and a cowitness red dot.  A regular semi auto rifle, sure, they are multi purpose. A purpose built dedicated precision gun that is for hunting at distance or target shooting, no way.  The only justification could be using your precision rifle in a non precision way.  If you have spent that much on your precision rifle, you aren’t going to use it like a brush gun. The lower, ya go ahead and use that, it probably has a great trigger and stock. Don’t drag a $1000+ upper through the brush to do the job that a $200 psa upper could.

SPR type with 18" barrels are a multipurpose gun. They're also precision rigs to spend the right money on. It's a shame that you cannot see that. And I've taken it out into the brush to thin the coyote herds. It's the most expensive precision rig that I own currently. If it's going to be babied and only used to show off, then I don't want it. Point and shoot is not so easy as you make it to be. You're not the only person who shoots. My rifles that are gas guns no matter what role, all have BUIS's. Optics break. That's why I have QR mount and zeroed BUIS's.

For precision rifles that are semi, the only pointless thing about them is those that try to make the noise about it because it's don't do what I don't do or not like. It doesn't work like that either.

Of all historic shooters of notoriety who used rifles with iron sights against men and dangerous game inside 50 yds, exactly which of them practiced point shooting and not using sights? You're very confident, answering this should be easy.

Wow. Thanks for the example.

I'd sure love to have backup sites if I was in that situation, rather than shooting from the hip like a desperado hoping and praying to cling to my life.

But hey, if you don't want back up sites... your choice! Murica!

You said it and I agree a multipurpose rifle, why not. Do what you want. I baby all my rifles. Even a $200 10/22 with a $35tasco on it. Money doesn’t come easy for me, I do the best I can to take care of my stuff. If people want to get mud on their scopes and bang them on stuff go ahead. I still am trying to figure out how you get mud on your scope though

Because real life is not the perfect world. Tripping and falling can and does happen when you're getting tunnel vision sighting in for a shot of opportunity.

I even said if you don’t have a qd scope mount or offset sights on a defensive rifle. If someone is shooting at you, you aren’t gonna be like “wait a minute while I find the right allen wrench”. I was saying if your scope went down, you are not going to take time to take your scope off and reaquire the target. You are going to keep shooting.

For dangerous game I would WANT a rifle with Irons like a double rifle.  You want zero chance of failure!  I would not take a precision rifle for that, most dangerous game hunters and guides use irons for that reason. If you are getting charged with a scoped rifle with broken scope you are not going to take the time to take your scope off. The only people who hunt dangerous game with a scoped rifle have guides there to save their ass.

I didn't ask about QD or 45 degree or optics at all. You keep promoting point shooting. I'm wondering why you think its effective with rifles. Is it?

I would not want backup sights that I have to take my scope off for. I would carry a 44mag, 460, or 500sw. Why have backup sights when I always have a backup gun. I always carry a handgun, even when bow hunting deer in ohio.

I’m just saying if all I had was a semi auto rifle and the scope broke I would point and shoot at defensive distances.

Try it the next time you can. It’s not practical or accurate, but hitting a torso sized target at 25 yds is surprisingly easy.  It’s like pointing your finger. Just leave your scope caps on and shoot 5 rounds. You’re probably going to get at least 2 or 3 hits. Back in the day a friend bet me I couldn’t and I was surprised how easy it was. Your not going to be great, but it is no different than instinctive archery with a recurve and no sights. Shoulder the rifle like normal and “aim”  at your target even though your scope caps are on. You’ll be surprised.

I am not trying to argue, but it seems like it, so I will bow out of this thread and let the discussion go back to a state of peace. I just wanted to share my opinion on if they were needed.

I’m still trying to figure out how someone would get mud caked on your scope though. .

Sorry for seeming argumentative, i was just trying to reply to comments about my posts.

I am fairly certain you lack imagination, entirely.

Have you ever gotten mud on anything that you didn't want it on? HOW IN THE HECK DID THAT HAPPEN SON?

You realize planes crash, kids fall on playgrounds and break limbs, cows have fallen off cliffs.... this isn't theoretical. How much time to you spend in wonderment of such occurrences, pondering just how they could have happened?

FYI, while seem to think its easy nobody who uses a rifle for a living or to protect themselves or others have advocated point shooting since a long long time. Get with the times and open your eyes to the possibility that you might not know as much as you think you do.

Gotta beat the dead horse. From the beginning I specifically excluded people who use a rifle for fighting other people or defensive weapons.

By all of your peoples logic, all hunters with scoped rifles are wrong without buis. All sniper rifles should have buis. When have you ever seen a precision bolt action like a ai or a surgeon with buis?  Military stipers don’t always have buis, they transition to a different gun or sidearm. How ofter do you see a prs shooter using iron sights?  Their gun goes down they either go to a different gun or are done. Just because your rifle has rail space for them doesn’t mean you will ever need them. Most people who have them haven’t shot them since they zeroed them. I’m not saying point and shoot is a great alternative to anything. It is a last resort. You people just want to put yet another complicated thing before the last resort.  I have been hunting and shooting scoped rifles since I was 10 and have never once had a single thing happen to a scope except a drop or two of rain or some dust. I have yet to see a valid reason for buis on a precision rifle being used as a precision rifle. If you use it for an actual combat rifle, self defense weapon, or a multi role gun, I’ll say there is a reason. Other than that, tacticool mall ninja garbage

No I have imagination and instinct. Instead of crossing that ditch here where I could fall and F up my rifle, I’ll go another way. I see all the bad possibilities and do the best job possible to prevent them. I do spend a lot of time in wonderment of those situations. “What kind of F-ing moron let that happen?????”  “Where the hell were that kid’s parents, and why did they let him do that?”  

I still don’t see how yor get mud in your scope.  Oh wait... I do, you climb over a ditch using a downed tree for a bridge with your scope caps open!  Genious!!!!  That had to save so much time over walking the extra 100yards to go around. . Now you have a high end precision scope with scratched glass.

This is tech, not spouting delusional ramblings. I mean no offense saying this, but you're coming off as a space shuttle door gunner right now.

And in case you haven't noticed, the majority of us have come from backgrounds where being tactical was a way or still is, a way of life. And we also have gotten mud and other muck on our rifles. We know better because that experience trumps a sheltered existence.

And all snipers in the military using a semi auto precision rifle have BUIS's on them. That's the topic right now, semi auto and a BUIS. And WE HAVE GIVEN YOU VALID REASONS for a BUIS. It's not our fault that you're being ignorant and not listening to us.

No, he's right, you do not have either.

The BUIS sets will stay on my rifles. There is no reason at all not to have them. You don't want them, I don't care, what you do does not effect me at all

This thread went sideways...

To all those that served or are serving, thank you.

As far as a BUIS goes,  it's the individuals rifle.  Want them get them, don't then don't. On here I see weapons that have to much on them for my preferences,  but they are not my weapons.  As long as they are what the owner wanted that's all that's really important.

Money doesn't come easy for most on here.  We all work or have worked for what we have.  I baby my rifles right now,  there is no need for me not to.  They are built to take a lot,  but that doesn't mean the optics can't become damages or non functional. Having a backup is a good idea in my book. I don't consider that to make me a mall ninja. I'm certainly not trying for street creds either.

I have a friend that set NRA records for shots at distance using open sights.  Another served and participates to this day in distance shooting competitions and prefers irons. I'm always amazed at how they do it because I sure can do that with irons.  When we are out,  I would gladly pop my optic off and allow them to put me to shame using my rifles with irons compared to my performance scoped.

Growing up hunting I've seen a lot of rifles damages. Rocky terrain,  slips,  mud,  grass you name it.  The optic suffering from damage,  the environment (freezing, wet, etc...). Nice having a backup way to sight.

I have two precision rigs,  neither have BUIS on them right now.  The only reason is that I have been building and making them specific to me and my money only comes in so fast.  Now that the major parts are complete,  I'll purchase a set for each.

Only reason I'll put one on is hunting, and it better be comfortable to shoot with. I put a back up red dot on top of a scope one time, and the shift in cheek weld was unbearable.  It was offset at where a 45 degree iron would be, and I didn't like the shift.  

Since then I'd rather buy a scope that has lower power and the range I'll actually use.

I have 45 degree offset BUIS on my SR25 precision setup. I sighted them in and shot them out to 500 and made a 'back up' sight click dope chart.  They saved my ass in a precision rifle class/shoot that had 100 degree heat and high humidity. It was so hot and we shot some stages with alot of shots that my mirage cover on the suppressor stopped working. Instead of being out of the game I flipped up the buis and engaged the steel with some success. I nailed the targets from 500yds to 700yds. I rather be prepared for the 'what if' and give my self a chance than being sidelined with no other option. Of course you have limited capabilty with irons but it sure beats no capability at all anyday! I intend to take this setup to a dual use carbine shoot someday and buis are setup perfect for that style of precision shooting. I wish PA allowed semiauto deer hunting as this would be the ultimate tool for taking long shots and have the ability to use in the thicker brush as well. To me the buis was worth the investment

Trying to think through this....

So a scoped precision rifle optic fails. If you're a civilian in an SHTF scenario you get out of dodge. If you're a cop taking out a hostage, you likely have another rifle or a buddy ready to take your place. If you're in the military, you're part of a large team (read Chris Kyle's book on sniping in the sandbox) of soldiers with weapons, and likely you yourself have a personal carbine too, not counting your sidearm.

I'm not sure how any of those scenarios necessitate irons? If the bad guy is closer, that's what you have your pistol for. Or your carbine.

It's not possible to accessorize away all potential failures.


ETA: The only potential scenario I can think of is hunting, and I'll grant irons would be nice there. But I assume the question is not considering that. I always just consider optics to be a case of accepting a liability for significant upside. You can't have it all.

No matter how much you try to think this through, not everyone thinks the same in regards to this. Just why some are so worried about others who do validate back up irons, is problematic because the issue is so benign to be this concerned about it.