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Posted: 9/4/2017 12:30:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: moose-hunter]
Just curious...
I have 3 precision bolt guns without irons. That said, why would I want or need irons on my large frame true precision AR's? Looks? Real back up? SHTF? Honestly curious is all... |
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[#1]
When was the last time you broke a scope/ optic? I see no need in civilian life.
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[#2]
Do you like plinking with irons? Will it be your go to?
Otherwise if you want a more irons oriented rifle, get some high end match sights from Warner, Phoenix, Centra, etc. |
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
FBHO TK4L "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#3]
Is this a potential fighting weapon? If not, don't worry about it, save your $. If it is a fighting rifle, what kind of optic? Something built like an ACOG or something more fragile? If the later, buis might not be a bad idea...
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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[#4]
Do you plan to take it anywhere where a broken optic would be a bad day? Like hunting? Then yes, pure range toy/toy then meh.
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"Iran is playing with fire - they don't appreciate how 'kind' President Obama was to them. Not me!" The President DJT
I'm an advocate of the 3 chainsaw, two tractor, one wife, one God plan. |
[#5]
i've seen plenty of high dollar scopes that broke at PRS type matches over the years. Pretty much every brand I can think of.
so yeah, it's a risk. the problem is BUIS are useless on a precision rifle for several simple reasons: - you can't hit precision targets with them - you need tools to remove the optic so you can use them - you'd never practice with them or be able to confirm zero i do know one good shooter that carries a second optic just in case. that's pretty expensive thing to do. and heavy. still requires tools to replace, and time and a place to shoot to confirm zero. but i really don't know of a good solution. there are a number of other bad solutions that still aren't capable of precision shooting, for example: - put a red dot on side of your optic, 3gun style - use the laser on a PEQ15 or equivalent these can be deployed quickly without having to remove your scope |
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[#6]
What are the smallest common targets (MOA/distance)?
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
FBHO TK4L "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#7]
I don't have them on mine. The gun weighs enough already and I don't use them. If the scope breaks, pull out gun # 2.
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If you seek to do battle with me this day, you will receive the best that I am capable of giving. It may not be enough, but it will be everything I have to give, and it will be impressive.
-B.Terry |
[#8]
People have been shooting out to very long ranges with iron sights for a long time. I view the addition of high-quality, precise iron sights to a precision rifle as something to be done as a matter of course. Doing so will provide you with the opportunity to use iron sights in lieu of the optic, and that experience could come in very handy if the optic fails or is otherwise unusable.
The short-range. flip-up BUIS commonly used, the rear sight often having no windage adjustment whatsoever, are completely unsuitable for long-range, precision work. High-quality, long-range BUIS will be useful to you to the extent you practice with them. Simply having them (zeroed, of course) is not enough. You will need to practice adjusting them at various ranges in order to become proficient with them. |
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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[#9]
I'm always amused at large scopes on a 5.56. It originally came with irons, and the tactical application is that if the enemy is doing things right (worst case scenario) you can't even see them past 125m. Closer than that even GI sights will more than cover minute of man for a hit.
BUIS on a battle rifle only admits that red dot optics are still less than battle hardened. They have yet to spec Gorilla glass on them and the biggest failure point is broken circuitry. While red dots do a great job - still have a gen one Aimpoint - if you are working urban with vehicles or on foot, you will bang up a red dot. And there were conexes full brought back by the light equipment and repair companies, all of which were sold as is thru surplus. If it's a truly precision shooter - 4-800 meters - then a scope that cost as much as the rifle is on it. BUIS too? You have to get that big chunk of optic off the gun to even use them, at which point you are better to just switch off to an M4. Which your team mate should be using already. In competition or on a range, wasted money. |
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[#10]
I don't have them on mine and it bothers me.
Every other Ar-style rifle I own wears BUIS. My creedmoor weighs as much as a small child. I'm too old and out of shape to go to war. That said, I'm gonna buy a set of BUIS to go on it. The additional weight isn't going to matter much. |
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"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."-Abba Eban
"I like it both ways, but still mainly mouth it" -gonzo_beyondo |
[#12]
Originally Posted By taliv:
sure, at buffalo and 6 foot square high power targets. please show me a pic of a high quality long-range BUIS mounted in conjunction with a scope appropriate for precision shooting. or tell me what BUIS you're using that are capable. here's an example of mine, with USO mounted on a larue QD and KAC BUIS http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/sr25field1.JPGhttps://www.knightarmco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/micoflipuprearsight_25650.jpg while i kept them zeroed, i can assure you if they were capable of replacing the scope, i would not have spent the $$ on the optic in the first place and would just run two sets of BUIS. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By taliv:
Originally Posted By raf:
People have been shooting out to very long ranges with iron sights for a long time. I view the addition of high-quality, precise iron sights to a precision rifle as something to be done as a matter of course. Doing so will provide you with the opportunity to use iron sights in lieu of the optic, and that experience could come in very handy if the optic fails or is otherwise unusable.
The short-range. flip-up BUIS commonly used, the rear sight often having no windage adjustment whatsoever, are completely unsuitable for long-range, precision work. High-quality, long-range BUIS will be useful to you to the extent you practice with them. Simply having them (zeroed, of course) is not enough. You will need to practice adjusting them at various ranges in order to become proficient with them. here's an example of mine, with USO mounted on a larue QD and KAC BUIS http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/sr25field1.JPGhttps://www.knightarmco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/micoflipuprearsight_25650.jpg while i kept them zeroed, i can assure you if they were capable of replacing the scope, i would not have spent the $$ on the optic in the first place and would just run two sets of BUIS. I don't doubt your scope will let you reach out further than iron sights, no matter how well made, although there are some very fine ($500) iron sights available that will do all that one could ask. Not exactly low-profile, nor QD, though. But, if you want low-profile iron sights that will work at long range, consider the NM front and rear sights on a NM Garand or NM M1A. With a properly Scout-Scoped NM Garand and/or NM M1A, the QD scope can be arranged to hit (through reticular hold-overs) out to 600 yds. The point is that decent, fully adjustable BUIS are available, albeit seldom seen, and, I suspect, even less often used. Putting such rear sights on a short-barreled 5.56 carbine would probably be a waste of money, although mounting a Matech or similar sight on a 20" barreled AR should be useful, as long as the shooter practices with it. I think what we see nowadays is that shooters choose equipment, such as rear sights and slings, not understanding the benefits of more elaborate equipment. I believe that they do not fully understand the full range of choices available to them, and so choose the simplest, least expensive option. |
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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[#13]
on some guns i run simple BUIS, like a magpul MBUS. The 556 round is flat shooting, and once zeroed, inside of a couple hundred meters you really don't need tons of adjustment to get good hits on torso-sized targets. A good zero / kentucky windage is plenty for the vast majority of people/guns/scenarios in which a back up sight might even come into play. I have no problem with 'fully featured' back up sights, I'm just not sure it's all that necessary for most people.
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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[#14]
I don't use a BIS except with red dots, in which case I use fixed sights.
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"By the metrics of environmentalism, poverty vastly outperforms wealth." -Andres Duany.
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[#15]
I have a set of *45 mounted Duecks on one of my precision AR's. This is a general purpose precision rifle that I hunt with. Irons are zero'ed at 50 yds. And yes, I do practice with them.
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[#16]
It's a valid question. I have a 6.8 SPC that I hog hunt with. But it's also a precision rifle with a match grade barrel that I plink with. And honestly it's so reliable I would grab it in a SHTF scenario without a second thought. It's got a 3-12x44 mil-dot scope.
After an interesting hog hunt where I was walking up to a dead hog I dropped at a distance, I had a large sow charge at me from nowhere about 25 yards. I had to spray and pray. Luckily I hit it and it it turned. After that, I started subscribing to 45 degree offset BUIS. And I keep them deployed and ready while stalking / hunting. For a benchrest rifle, you don't need them. But I enjoy plinking with the irons at 50 and 100 yards. It's interesting and challenging when you know it's a half MOA rifle. |
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What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
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[#17]
Originally Posted By TW52:
I have a set of *45 mounted Duecks on one of my precision AR's. This is a general purpose precision rifle that I hunt with. Irons are zero'ed at 50 yds. And yes, I do practice with them. View Quote |
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[#18]
I know it's pretty much unnecessary but my OCD dictates if a rifle of mine can have BUIS, it has a set.
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
[Last Edit: drshock]
[#19]
I'm pinned down behind my sofa with a 15 lb 308, all of my other firearms have been destroyed in the blast, my optic is shattered, and an enemy is camping me down the street at 200 yards, too far to simply aim with the barrel.
I'd rather spend $100 on the lottery. They make sense on Recce/scout rifles though, since taking the scope off just yields a premium carbine. |
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[#20]
Put them on if it makes you happy. I usually do. The weight is insignificant and I like knowing that I have a good iron sight zero on back-up.
I buy Troy HK style nowadays, but I own LMT and A.R.M.S. too. I prefer the clean rear aperture of the Troy sights and the ability to fold them down. The LMT rocks if you have a lower 1/3 mounted red dot and want the ability to dial in elevation. |
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[#21]
Originally Posted By macman37:
I know it's pretty much unnecessary but my OCD dictates if a rifle of mine can have BUIS, it has a set. View Quote Or do I just want justification to hit the range and sight in the irons again? |
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[#22]
Originally Posted By moose-hunter:
This is where I'm at even on a precision only rig. I pulled my BUIS off my 6.5CM and it just looked incomplete... OCD? Maybe... Or do I just want justification to hit the range and sight in the irons again? View Quote but i'll bet money that a) you probably can't remove your scope to deploy your irons without tools and your opponent can run 500 yards and shoot you with a pistol before you could deploy your irons b) even if you get your irons deployed, you can't hit that target with irons c) when you miss, you won't see your trace or impact, and will have no idea how to adjust for attempt #2 d) when you reattach your scope, you your zero won't be close enough to hit a 1 MOA target at distance. if you can't identify and hit 1-2 MOA targets with the sights, then they're just not "precision" anymore. and if they're not "precision" then they're not really "a backup". if deploying your "backup" sights reduces your capability to the point that you can effectively only engage full size silhouettes, then you're better off switching to a canted red dot, which you can at least "deploy" in a second by tilting the gun |
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[#23]
All of my semi auto precision rifles can potentially be a fighting rifle. They all have BUIS's on them, it's my money and my rifles anyway so I am free to do with them as I see properly to fit in either caliber or parts.
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RIP Grin! 10/09/2015
RIP SFC Mike Francis 11/08/2016 NorCal_LEO issued nickname: Tombstone meh |
[#25]
I'm really not a "Oh my God you're going to die with out BUIS" kind of a guy. But to say they need to be as accurate as your scope otherwise they're not a back up? That's just weird. They're a "back up" because in theory if your scope goes down, then you can have some irons just in case. You might not be as effective with them, but as someone pointed out earlier, you may need them for close range.
And seems like most people are assuming .308 ARs. And if so, there are detachable mounts that come off pretty darn quickly. And go back on pretty quickly. Like Larue, American Defense. I have a larue on my recce and it's pretty repeatable. View Quote |
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[#26]
They can make headshots at 300-600yds without rifle sight, optic or with a pistol but cant someone 10 feet with a machine gun and optic on the walking dead lol
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Duct tape is silver, silence is golden
Teener crew call sign-brother fucker |
[#27]
Originally Posted By taliv:
maybe i'm being too nitpicky and taking "precision" more literally than everyone else, but i went through this phase myself after some scope failures in matches and while i was out plinking. i spent a lot of time and money trying to figure it out and never really found anything that worked. View Quote |
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Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. - My Pastor
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[#28]
mostly scopes not holding zero
but also in matches and when plinking i would occasionally* do stupid stuff, like breathe on the ocular lens in sub zero weather, which immediately turned it into a sheet of frozen fog and made it useless until i could warm it up and clean it. would have been really nice to be able to pop the whole scope off at that point, and use a backup *that is a lesson i seem destined to relearn once a year on the first freezing day of winter |
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[Last Edit: raf]
[#29]
Originally Posted By taliv:
maybe i'm being too nitpicky and taking "precision" more literally than everyone else, but i went through this phase myself after some scope failures in matches and while i was out plinking. i spent a lot of time and money trying to figure it out and never really found anything that worked. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By taliv:
I'm really not a "Oh my God you're going to die with out BUIS" kind of a guy. But to say they need to be as accurate as your scope otherwise they're not a back up? That's just weird. They're a "back up" because in theory if your scope goes down, then you can have some irons just in case. You might not be as effective with them, but as someone pointed out earlier, you may need them for close range.
And seems like most people are assuming .308 ARs. And if so, there are detachable mounts that come off pretty darn quickly. And go back on pretty quickly. Like Larue, American Defense. I have a larue on my recce and it's pretty repeatable. There are very good top-mounted BUIS available, which mimic the original A2 iron sights, as well as the issued MaTech. What I find interesting is that the 45 deg offset sights might eliminate the need to remove the optic for very close shots. I'm investigating this alternative by buying a cheapo set of non-foldable 45 deg offset sights. I find it curious in the extreme that there are offered foldable 45 deg offset sights. Presumably, such sights are to be used for close range, and instantly. Does one have the time to flip both of them up instantly? I think not. Thanks to the previous poster in this thread for implanting the idea in my head. I should add that 45 deg offset sights are available with all the bells and whistles, including Trit front sight inserts, as well as full range of adjustability that equals the original A2 sighting system. Some might find this capability useful, but I think that if a long shot is required, one will have the time to remove the optic, and use the conventionally-mounted BUIS. Being no expert, I believe the best use of 45 deg offset sights is for the close-to-middlin' range shot that is so close, and so transient, that the optics cannot be removed, nor can the flip-up BUIS be deployed quickly enough to make the shot. In short, transitioning to the 45 deg offset sights is [b]instant, or almost so. YMMV, and some of this is new to me, so forgive any misconceptions on my part. |
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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[#30]
all i can say is it seems like my experience has varied substantially from yours. i'd very much like to see your setups in action. hit a practical precision target, remove the scope, hit the same target with irons.
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[#31]
I have NM-2A sights on my DMR clone and the Knights 600m folding BUIS on my AR-10 SASS. The sights on my DMR clone are still the excellent M-14 sights that are rock solid and able to put rounds where I need them even if I do have to fight to see them under the BPT scope mount I have on that rifle. And, while the folding Knights BUIS sight on my Armalite may not be as solid as the M-14 sights, it's easier to flip the throw levers on the Laure scope mount and flip them up. Look, I'm not expecting precision grade accuracy out of these sights but I am expecting quality battle rifle accuracy out of these sights. In any case, more coarse battle rifle accuracy using iron sights is still a far better option than Afghani style "the bullets will go where Allah wills them" accuracy without any sights whatsoever.
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[#32]
I may see about trying a know-your-limits type test with irons.
*flashback to HootieWho's MOAAD entry* |
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
FBHO TK4L "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#33]
a KYL rack challenge is exactly what i was thinking.
battle rifle irons on a full size IPSC with white paint at 500 yards is a walk in the park. heck, you can do that standing, in the rain and still be 100% |
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[Last Edit: JJREA]
[#34]
There's no way irons are going to be as good as a scope at distance shooting. If I was you I'd carry another scope in a larue mount or something you can mount quickly, as well as a QD mount for your primary scope, in a pack or pocket. Because that's really going to be the only way to achieve what you are going for.
That being said, some guys are very good with irons. Obviously dudes make long shots with them in competition. But usually are specialized for long range competition. They wouldn't make for good close in fast emergency shots. So you just have to pick your poison. |
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Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. - My Pastor
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[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony]
[#35]
That's why I asked about target size.
The limitations may be that the location has to be pointed out to you and KD (though the post can be a rough range finder). If you can see it, shoot it. If you can't see it, get a different reference that you can see, correct, shoot. (frame hold) ETA: anyone have a KNS Duplex they're not using? |
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
FBHO TK4L "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#36]
One just has to ask oneself what are the consequences of an optic failure and how to compensate for that. Police and military would need it to still function and continue the mission. A good zero and confirmation at operational distances should be included i training. With red dots buis may not be as fast but will closely match performance. With recce or precision rigs sights such as Magpul Pro or KAC will keep you operational within most operational ranges depending on terrain and visibility. Now could one complete a PRS match with irons more than likely yes but not effectively same goes for a HP match which would be much easier. I have them on business guns but not on the play ones because the only consequence is 25 miles back home and no more target pulling. No buis on hunters either if the deer attack me I have a pistol.
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[#37]
hadn't really thought about the police example. if you were swat, would you take a hostage shot with your buis? would you be allowed to?
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[#38]
Originally Posted By mark5pt56:
One just has to ask oneself what are the consequences of an optic failure and how to compensate for that. Police and military would need it to still function and continue the mission. A good zero and confirmation at operational distances should be included i training. With red dots buis may not be as fast but will closely match performance. With recce or precision rigs sights such as Magpul Pro or KAC will keep you operational within most operational ranges depending on terrain and visibility. Now could one complete a PRS match with irons more than likely yes but not effectively same goes for a HP match which would be much easier. I have them on business guns but not on the play ones because the only consequence is 25 miles back home and no more target pulling. No buis on hunters either if the deer attack me I have a pistol. View Quote |
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"By the metrics of environmentalism, poverty vastly outperforms wealth." -Andres Duany.
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[#39]
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What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
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[#40]
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"By the metrics of environmentalism, poverty vastly outperforms wealth." -Andres Duany.
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[#41]
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:Most military guys don't have a BIS. View Quote |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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[Last Edit: taliv]
[#42]
Originally Posted By alpha0815:
Are you saying most military guys don't have BUIS on their semi-auto, DMR, RECCE rifles? If so, that couldn't be further from the truth. View Quote i think backup irons on a DMR/RECCE make total sense. |
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[Last Edit: raf]
[#43]
Originally Posted By taliv:
all i can say is it seems like my experience has varied substantially from yours. i'd very much like to see your setups in action. hit a practical precision target, remove the scope, hit the same target with irons. View Quote Let me explain what I see as suitable BUIS on a precision rifle. I envision robust, lightweight sights that can be quickly be deployed in the event the optic is unavailable or unusable for some reason, the primary optic being likewise quickly and easily removable. In using such BUIS, it definitely should allow the shooter to take the cheek weld that their rifle/stock is set up to use with the (presumably) primary optical sighting device. No adjusting the cheek riser, and no chin weld. BUIS are useable, once deployed, with same cheek weld as the usual optic. The BUIS, on a long-range rifle should have a reasonable, precise, range of adjustment, and allow the use of various rear sight apertures. The threaded sight elevation arm (which accepts threaded apertures) of most commonly available aftermarket rear sights makes an excellent ghost ring rear sight, albeit for very close ranges. The front sight should allow for user-defined front sight posts to be installed, and such front sight posts to be protected by wings that cannot possibly be confused with the front sight post; IOW, military, curved wings. Many old-timers had installed on their rifles all sorts o iron front and rear sights, and they could shoot out to 1000 yds with them, and accurately. Those sights were permanent installations, and very specialized in their (usually) target range use I don't see anything like what they used available in flip-up BUIS, but I do see BUIS that will shoot out to 500-600 yds, perhaps more with some tweaking. In my mind, BUIS on a precision rifle are for the unexpected, but possible failure/unavailability of the primary optic. Having such good BUIS saves the shooter from having a (at least) a temporarily useless rifle, and allows the user some options, and without recourse to possibly unobtainable outside help. I don't claim that any but the most exceptionable BUIS will come close to a good long-range optical rig, but the exceptionable iron BUIS do exist. That's my concept. Whether or not it suits your needs/desires is, of course, up to you. Whether one chooses to bear the (significant) cost of such precision rifle BUIS, and practice with them is up to the shooter. I have a number of firearms. I have made a point, over the years, to mount optics on some firearms which were never originally intended to have optics, mainly on account of my older eyes becoming increasingly unable to use long-range iron sights effectively. Likewise, I have installed very good iron sights on some firearms which seemed to me required them. Just saying, so you have some perspective on what I've said. |
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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[#44]
Originally Posted By taliv:
i've suspected that is the source of our disagreement... when i think precision gas gun, i'm not thinking DMR/RECCE, or Including M4s and A4s with acogs. i'm thinking MK11 mod0 and M110 type stuff. i think backup irons on a DMR/RECCE make total sense. View Quote |
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What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
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[#45]
Me? No. I don't have buis on guns with magnified optics.
My bolt guns don't have any provisions for irons, my AR has a light in the way and it's used almost exclusively at night anyway. With a red dot, i keep a front sight to index with. It helps me to keep my parallax free Aimpoint parallax free. |
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[#46]
A couple years ago during a match that involves many many miles of land travel, the optic mount on our semi auto precision rifle popped a screw.
The lack of backup sights cost us a win, as we needed to hit targets at 300 yards, but the scope was changing position after every shot. However, rather than add backup sights, my teammate replaced his optic mount with a spuhr.... The "big name" mount went to the trash. |
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[Last Edit: raf]
[#47]
Originally Posted By HuckMeat:
A couple years ago during a match that involves many many miles of land travel, the optic mount on our semi auto precision rifle popped a screw. The lack of backup sights cost us a win, as we needed to hit targets at 300 yards, but the scope was changing position after every shot. However, rather than add backup sights, my teammate replaced his optic mount with a spuhr.... The "big name" mount went to the trash. View Quote A classic of this sort was an M1A shooter who had his extractor and its' spring launch itself into orbit during a Match. The shooter did have a spare assembly, which he quickly installed. The extractor was in its' sealed bag. Unfortunately for the shooter, the newly installed extractor lasted a few shots before it, too, launched into oblivion. Base cause for both failures was the shooter did not know that it was necessary to pre-fit M1A/Garand extractors, and to make certain that the pivot post was slightly recessed below the surface of the bolt. Had he known that essential fact, it is unlikely he would have had the first failure, let alone the second. The lesson here is to always have a viable Plan "B" and to execute it properly. |
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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[Last Edit: raf]
[#48]
Originally Posted By HuckMeat:
A couple years ago during a match that involves many many miles of land travel, the optic mount on our semi auto precision rifle popped a screw. The lack of backup sights cost us a win, as we needed to hit targets at 300 yards, but the scope was changing position after every shot. However, rather than add backup sights, my teammate replaced his optic mount with a spuhr.... The "big name" mount went to the trash. View Quote |
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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[#49]
What's the best way to test a KYL with irons?
2 targets of the same size, 5 shots on each, then switch to smaller until you can't "aim small, miss small" and use a frame hold, or group opens noticeably? Should the standard 0.070" post be used or a 0.050"? |
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
#FreeBradders "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#50]
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