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Posted: 9/4/2017 12:30:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: moose-hunter]
Just curious...

I have 3 precision bolt guns without irons.  That said, why would I want or need irons on my large frame true precision AR's?

Looks?  Real back up?  SHTF?  

Honestly curious is all...
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 12:45:08 AM EDT
[#1]
When was the last time you broke a scope/ optic? I see no need in civilian life.
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 2:00:58 AM EDT
[#2]
Do you like plinking with irons? Will it be your go to?

Otherwise if you want a more irons oriented rifle, get some high end match sights from Warner, Phoenix, Centra, etc.
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 3:48:52 AM EDT
[#3]
Is this a potential fighting weapon? If not, don't worry about it, save your $. If it is a fighting rifle, what kind of optic? Something built like an ACOG or something more fragile? If the later, buis might not be a bad idea...
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 9:53:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Do you plan to take it anywhere where a broken optic would be a bad day? Like hunting? Then yes, pure range toy/toy then meh.
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 2:33:00 PM EDT
[#5]
i've seen plenty of high dollar scopes that broke at PRS type matches over the years.  Pretty much every brand I can think of.

so yeah, it's a risk.


the problem is BUIS are useless on a precision rifle for several simple reasons:  

- you can't hit precision targets with them
- you need tools to remove the optic so you can use them
- you'd never practice with them or be able to confirm zero


i do know one good shooter that carries a second optic just in case.  that's pretty expensive thing to do.  and heavy.  still requires tools to replace, and time and a place to shoot to confirm zero.

but i really don't know of a good solution.

there are a number of other bad solutions that still aren't capable of precision shooting, for example:
- put a red dot on side of your optic, 3gun style
- use the laser on a PEQ15 or equivalent
these can be deployed quickly without having to remove your scope
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 7:21:29 PM EDT
[#6]
What are the smallest common targets (MOA/distance)?
Link Posted: 9/4/2017 8:10:39 PM EDT
[#7]
I don't have them on mine.  The gun weighs enough already and I don't use them.  If the scope breaks, pull out gun # 2.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 7:19:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 10:29:12 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm always amused at large scopes on a 5.56. It originally came with irons, and the tactical application is that if the enemy is doing things right (worst case scenario) you can't even see them past 125m. Closer than that even GI sights will more than cover minute of man for a hit.

BUIS on a battle rifle only admits that red dot optics are still less than battle hardened. They have yet to spec Gorilla glass on them and the biggest failure point is broken circuitry. While red dots do a great job - still have a gen one Aimpoint - if you are working urban with vehicles or on foot, you will bang up a red dot. And there were conexes full brought back by the light equipment and repair companies, all of which were sold as is thru surplus.

If it's a truly precision shooter - 4-800 meters - then a scope that cost as much as the rifle is on it. BUIS too? You have to get that big chunk of optic off the gun to even use them, at which point you are better to just switch off to an M4. Which your team mate should be using already.

In competition or on a range, wasted money.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 11:33:26 AM EDT
[#10]
I don't have them on mine and it bothers me.

Every other Ar-style rifle I own wears BUIS.


My creedmoor weighs as much as a small child.  I'm too old and out of shape to go to war.  That said, I'm gonna buy a set of BUIS to go on it.  The additional weight isn't going to matter much.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 1:42:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By raf:
People have been shooting out to very long ranges with iron sights for a long time.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By raf:
People have been shooting out to very long ranges with iron sights for a long time.
sure, at buffalo and 6 foot square high power targets.

 I view the addition of high-quality, precise iron sights to a precision rifle as something to be done as a matter of course.  Doing so will provide you with the opportunity to use iron sights in lieu of the optic, and that experience could come in very handy if the optic fails or is otherwise unusable.

The short-range. flip-up BUIS commonly used, the rear sight often having no windage adjustment whatsoever, are completely unsuitable for long-range, precision work.

High-quality, long-range BUIS will be useful to you to the extent you practice with them.  Simply having them (zeroed, of course) is not enough.  You will need to practice adjusting them at various ranges in order to become proficient with them.
please show me a pic of a high quality long-range BUIS mounted in conjunction with a scope appropriate for precision shooting. or tell me what BUIS you're using that are capable.

here's an example of mine, with USO mounted on a larue QD and KAC BUIS



while i kept them zeroed, i can assure you if they were capable of replacing the scope, i would not have spent the $$$ on the optic in the first place and would just run two sets of BUIS.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 3:45:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 4:33:58 PM EDT
[#13]
on some guns i run simple BUIS, like a magpul MBUS. The 556 round is flat shooting, and once zeroed, inside of a couple hundred meters you really don't need tons of adjustment to get good hits on torso-sized targets. A good zero / kentucky windage is plenty for the vast majority of people/guns/scenarios in which a back up sight might even come into play. I have no problem with 'fully featured' back up sights, I'm just not sure it's all that necessary for most people.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 4:36:36 PM EDT
[#14]
I don't use a BIS except with red dots, in which case I use fixed sights.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 8:19:30 PM EDT
[#15]
I have a set of *45 mounted Duecks on one of my precision AR's. This is a general purpose precision rifle that I hunt with. Irons are zero'ed at 50 yds. And yes, I do practice with them.
Link Posted: 9/6/2017 8:33:47 PM EDT
[#16]
It's a valid question. I have a 6.8 SPC that I hog hunt with. But it's also a precision rifle with a match grade barrel that I plink with. And honestly it's so reliable I would grab it in a SHTF scenario without a second thought. It's got a 3-12x44 mil-dot scope.

After an interesting hog hunt where I was walking up to a dead hog I dropped at a distance, I had a large sow charge at me from nowhere about 25 yards. I had to spray and pray. Luckily I hit it and it it turned.

After that, I started subscribing to 45 degree offset BUIS. And I keep them deployed and ready while stalking / hunting.

For a benchrest rifle, you don't need them. But I enjoy plinking with the irons at 50 and 100 yards. It's interesting and challenging when you know it's a half MOA rifle.
Link Posted: 9/6/2017 11:06:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TW52:
I have a set of *45 mounted Duecks on one of my precision AR's. This is a general purpose precision rifle that I hunt with. Irons are zero'ed at 50 yds. And yes, I do practice with them.
View Quote
I have the Magpul offset on my AR10 zeroed at 50/200 yards.  Prior to the offset, I had traditional BUIS and never used them or practiced with them because I did not want to remove my primary optic.  With the offset BUIS, I usually end my range session with a few rounds at 100, 200 and 300 yard steel targets.  100 yards is too easy...200 gets a little tougher and at 300 I'm happy with 1 hit out of every 3 rounds.  Not exactly precision or long range but they work and can be used in a pinch.  They are also useful and fun to bang away at 25 and 50 yards with some cheap surplus ammo.
Link Posted: 9/7/2017 12:12:20 PM EDT
[#18]
I know it's pretty much unnecessary but my OCD dictates if a rifle of mine can have BUIS, it has a set.
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 1:27:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: drshock] [#19]
I'm pinned down behind my sofa with a 15 lb 308, all of my other firearms have been destroyed in the blast, my optic is shattered, and an enemy is camping me down the street at 200 yards, too far to simply aim with the barrel.

I'd rather spend $100 on the lottery.

They make sense on Recce/scout rifles though, since taking the scope off just yields a premium carbine.
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 11:39:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Put them on if it makes you happy. I usually do. The weight is insignificant and I like knowing that I have a good iron sight zero on back-up.

I buy Troy HK style nowadays, but I own LMT and A.R.M.S. too. I prefer the clean rear aperture of the Troy sights and the ability to fold them down.

The LMT rocks if you have a lower 1/3 mounted red dot and want the ability to dial in elevation.
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 10:26:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By macman37:
I know it's pretty much unnecessary but my OCD dictates if a rifle of mine can have BUIS, it has a set.
View Quote
This is where I'm at even on a precision only rig.  I pulled my BUIS off my 6.5CM and it just looked incomplete...  OCD?  Maybe...

Or do I just want justification to hit the range and sight in the irons again?  
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 11:32:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By moose-hunter:


This is where I'm at even on a precision only rig.  I pulled my BUIS off my 6.5CM and it just looked incomplete...  OCD?  Maybe...

Or do I just want justification to hit the range and sight in the irons again?  
View Quote
i still don't get it.   if you're casually smacking 6" plates at 500 yards with your 6.5CM, and you can take your scope off and hit even an 8 or 10" plate at 500 with the BUIS, then put the scope back on and maintain zero so you can go back to hitting the 6" plates, then sure, I'd buy it.

but i'll bet money that
a) you probably can't remove your scope to deploy your irons without tools
and
your opponent can run 500 yards and shoot you with a pistol before you could deploy your irons
b) even if you get your irons deployed, you can't hit that target with irons
c) when you miss, you won't see your trace or impact, and will have no idea how to adjust for attempt #2
d) when you reattach your scope, you your zero won't be close enough to hit a 1 MOA target at distance.

if you can't identify and hit 1-2 MOA targets with the sights, then they're just not "precision" anymore.  and if they're not "precision" then they're not really "a backup".  

if deploying your "backup" sights reduces your capability to the point that you can effectively only engage full size silhouettes, then you're better off switching to a canted red dot, which you can at least "deploy" in a second by tilting the gun
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 11:48:25 PM EDT
[#23]
All of my semi auto precision rifles can potentially be a fighting rifle. They all have BUIS's on them, it's my money and my rifles anyway so I am free to do with them as I see properly to fit in either caliber or parts.
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 11:54:15 PM EDT
[#24]
I don't do this very often, but taliv, I think I disagree with pretty much everything you are saying.  

I'm really not a "Oh my God you're going to die with out BUIS" kind of a guy.  But to say they need to be as accurate as your scope otherwise they're not a back up?  That's just weird.  They're a "back up" because in theory if your scope goes down, then you can have some irons just in case.  You might not be as effective with them, but as someone pointed out earlier, you may need them for close range.  

And seems like most people are assuming  .308 ARs.  And if so, there are detachable mounts that come off pretty darn quickly.  And go back on pretty quickly.  Like Larue, American Defense.  I
have a larue on my recce and it's pretty repeatable.  

And then there's guns like mine here, you don't even need to do anything with certain set ups and you can use your irons or your scope.  



And then there are scopes that have BUIS on them.  Which are basically for emergencies I think....  or super close range....


ACOGs are an even better example


And finally, yes, some people can hit their intended target at distance with irons.
Link Posted: 9/13/2017 9:44:48 AM EDT
[#25]
I'm really not a "Oh my God you're going to die with out BUIS" kind of a guy. But to say they need to be as accurate as your scope otherwise they're not a back up? That's just weird. They're a "back up" because in theory if your scope goes down, then you can have some irons just in case. You might not be as effective with them, but as someone pointed out earlier, you may need them for close range.

And seems like most people are assuming .308 ARs. And if so, there are detachable mounts that come off pretty darn quickly. And go back on pretty quickly. Like Larue, American Defense. I
have a larue on my recce and it's pretty repeatable.
View Quote
maybe i'm being too nitpicky and taking "precision" more literally than everyone else, but i went through this phase myself after some scope failures in matches and while i was out plinking.   i spent a lot of time and money trying to figure it out and never really found anything that worked.
Link Posted: 9/13/2017 10:10:52 AM EDT
[#26]
They can make headshots at 300-600yds without rifle sight, optic or with a pistol but cant someone 10 feet with a machine gun and optic on the walking dead  lol
Link Posted: 9/13/2017 11:36:49 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By taliv:


maybe i'm being too nitpicky and taking "precision" more literally than everyone else, but i went through this phase myself after some scope failures in matches and while i was out plinking.   i spent a lot of time and money trying to figure it out and never really found anything that worked.
View Quote
That would be frustrating.  What kind of failures did you have?
Link Posted: 9/13/2017 1:00:33 PM EDT
[#28]
mostly scopes not holding zero

but also in matches and when plinking i would occasionally* do stupid stuff, like breathe on the ocular lens in sub zero weather, which immediately turned it into a sheet of frozen fog and made it useless until i could warm it up and clean it.  would have been really nice to be able to pop the whole scope off at that point, and use a backup



*that is a lesson i seem destined to relearn once a year on the first freezing day of winter
Link Posted: 9/13/2017 4:08:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf] [#29]
Link Posted: 9/13/2017 6:24:07 PM EDT
[#30]
all i can say is it seems like my experience has varied substantially from yours.  i'd very much like to see your setups in action.  hit a practical precision target, remove the scope, hit the same target with irons.
Link Posted: 9/14/2017 1:20:29 AM EDT
[#31]
I have NM-2A sights on my DMR clone and the Knights 600m folding BUIS on my AR-10 SASS.  The sights on my DMR clone are still the excellent M-14 sights that are rock solid and able to put rounds where I need them even if I do have to fight to see them under the BPT scope mount I have on that rifle.  And, while the folding Knights BUIS sight on my Armalite may not be as solid as the M-14 sights, it's easier to flip the throw levers on the Laure scope mount and flip them up.  Look, I'm not expecting precision grade accuracy out of these sights but I am expecting quality battle rifle accuracy out of these sights.  In any case, more coarse battle rifle accuracy using iron sights is still a far better option than Afghani style "the bullets will go where Allah wills them" accuracy without any sights whatsoever.
Link Posted: 9/14/2017 3:31:29 AM EDT
[#32]
I may see about trying a know-your-limits type test with irons.

*flashback to HootieWho's MOAAD entry*
Link Posted: 9/14/2017 1:37:13 PM EDT
[#33]
a KYL rack challenge is exactly what i was thinking.  

battle rifle irons on a full size IPSC with white paint at 500 yards is a walk in the park.   heck, you can do that standing, in the rain and still be 100%
Link Posted: 9/14/2017 3:12:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JJREA] [#34]
There's no way irons are going to be as good as a scope at distance shooting.  If I was you I'd carry another scope in a larue mount or something you can mount quickly, as well as a QD mount for your primary scope, in a pack or pocket.  Because that's really going to be the only way to achieve what you are going for.  

That being said, some guys are very good with irons.  Obviously dudes make long shots with them in competition.  But usually are specialized for long range competition.   They wouldn't make for good close in fast emergency shots.  So you just have to pick your poison.
Link Posted: 9/14/2017 4:04:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony] [#35]
That's why I asked about target size.

The limitations may be that the location has to be pointed out to you and KD (though the post can be a rough range finder).

If you can see it, shoot it. If you can't see it, get a different reference that you can see, correct, shoot. (frame hold)

ETA: anyone have a KNS Duplex they're not using?
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 9:15:19 AM EDT
[#36]
One just has to ask oneself what are the consequences of an optic failure and how to compensate for that. Police and military would need it to still function and continue the mission. A good zero and confirmation at operational distances should be included i training. With red dots buis may not be as fast but will closely match performance. With recce or precision rigs sights such as Magpul Pro or KAC will keep you operational within most  operational ranges depending on terrain and visibility. Now could one complete a PRS match with irons more than likely yes but not effectively same goes for a HP match which would be much easier. I have them on business guns but not on the play ones because the only consequence is 25 miles back home and no more target pulling. No buis on hunters either if the deer attack me I have a pistol.
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 9:51:00 AM EDT
[#37]
hadn't really thought about the police example.  if you were swat, would you take a hostage shot with your buis? would you be allowed to?
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 12:24:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mark5pt56:
One just has to ask oneself what are the consequences of an optic failure and how to compensate for that. Police and military would need it to still function and continue the mission. A good zero and confirmation at operational distances should be included i training. With red dots buis may not be as fast but will closely match performance. With recce or precision rigs sights such as Magpul Pro or KAC will keep you operational within most  operational ranges depending on terrain and visibility. Now could one complete a PRS match with irons more than likely yes but not effectively same goes for a HP match which would be much easier. I have them on business guns but not on the play ones because the only consequence is 25 miles back home and no more target pulling. No buis on hunters either if the deer attack me I have a pistol.
View Quote
Most military guys don't have a BIS.
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 1:58:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


Most military guys don't have a BIS.
View Quote
Are you saying most military guys don't have BUIS on their semi-auto, DMR, RECCE rifles?

If so, that couldn't be further from the truth.
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 2:07:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By alpha0815:


Are you saying most military guys don't have BUIS on their semi-auto, DMR, RECCE rifles?

If so, that couldn't be further from the truth.
View Quote
Include M4s and A4s.
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 3:12:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:Most military guys don't have a BIS.
View Quote
Doesn't seem likely, but even if true, mil optics tend to be ultra durable (ACOGs etc.), making the chances of breaking them more remote (though grunts can/do break ANYTHING). Having no backups is probably less of a priority if you have an ACOG than if you have a Bushnell TRS-25.
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 4:03:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: taliv] [#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By alpha0815:


Are you saying most military guys don't have BUIS on their semi-auto, DMR, RECCE rifles?

If so, that couldn't be further from the truth.
View Quote
i've suspected that is the source of our disagreement...  when i think precision gas gun, i'm not thinking DMR/RECCE, or Including M4s and A4s with acogs.  i'm thinking MK11 mod0 and M110 type stuff.  
i think backup irons on a DMR/RECCE make total sense.
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 5:01:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf] [#43]
Link Posted: 9/18/2017 1:41:55 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By taliv:


i've suspected that is the source of our disagreement...  when i think precision gas gun, i'm not thinking DMR/RECCE, or Including M4s and A4s with acogs.  i'm thinking MK11 mod0 and M110 type stuff.  
i think backup irons on a DMR/RECCE make total sense.
View Quote
MK11 and M110 were spec'd with BUIS. The front BUIS is built into the rail so you really can't even tell it's there unless it's deployed (flipped up).
Link Posted: 9/18/2017 10:04:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Me?  No.  I don't have buis on guns with magnified optics.  

My bolt guns don't have any provisions for irons, my AR has a light in the way and it's used almost exclusively at night anyway.  

With a red dot, i keep a front sight to index with.  It helps me to keep my parallax free Aimpoint parallax free.  
Link Posted: 9/26/2017 9:28:21 PM EDT
[#46]
A couple years ago during a match that involves many many miles of land travel, the optic mount on our semi auto precision rifle popped a screw.

The lack of backup sights cost us a win, as we needed to hit targets at 300 yards, but the scope was changing position after every shot.



However, rather than add backup sights, my teammate replaced his optic mount with a spuhr....  The "big name" mount went to the trash.
Link Posted: 9/27/2017 3:31:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf] [#47]
Link Posted: 9/27/2017 3:39:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf] [#48]
Link Posted: 10/14/2017 4:59:26 PM EDT
[#49]
What's the best way to test a KYL with irons?

2 targets of the same size, 5 shots on each, then switch to smaller until you can't "aim small, miss small" and use a frame hold, or group opens noticeably?

Should the standard 0.070" post be used or a 0.050"?
Link Posted: 10/14/2017 5:28:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gsc0527:
When was the last time you broke a scope/ optic? I see no need in civilian life.
View Quote
Is there a need for BUIS on a carbine?
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