Why the heck not, I'll start a little report thread on how this goes.

So I've been a precision rifle reloader since before the turn of the century. Might have been poor but didn't have many responsibilities beyond paying for college. Here we are much later and I still have the university costs, but also a few more mouths to feed. The real problem now is time. With what little extra time I have, I can either 1) play with the kids, 2) reload, or 3) shoot. Turns out 1 & 3 are a lot easier to combine, plus there's that little problem of the nut behind the trigger getting rusty.

A few years ago, I added a 6mm Super LR to the stable that quickly became my go-to match rifle. Shot in a few comps and did OK, including SHC and other places. That thing was a laser, but also a bit hard on the barrel. However, the afore-mentioned time problem kept me from practicing, so I shot most matches cold-turkey or damn close. Helps with barrel longevity but not shooting to your potential in big events gets old.

After watching the barrel life on a buddy's pair of 6.5 Creedmoors and also hearing decent things about the ammo situation, I decided to go down the factory road for a while. Besides, when people ask me how to get started in long range shooting, I always tell them to buy a non-Savage, best glass they can, and a case of factory ammo if they want to learn about the shooting part. They never listen, and inevitably spend the first years of their long range careers tinkering with junk and chasing the reloading pot-o-gold instead of reading wind and elevation changes. In a world of unlimited dinero, I'm pretty sure I would be buying Tubb 6XC ammo and never looking back. I do like the 6mm bore size for long range. Kids need shoes and bikes, so that's not happening. I decided to take my own advice and go with the working man's cartridge, the 6.5mm Creedmoor.

The Rifle(s)

1) I rebarreled my venerable Rem700 match rifle with a 25" MTU contour 5R 1:8 Bartlein in 6.5mm Creedmoor. Actually, my buddy Tom rebarreled it, he sure can cut a nice chamber. He also fitted a Harrell's Precision brake like the one I had on my 6mmSLR. This weapon has a McMillan USMC return M40A1 stock, modified M70 bottom metal, and Huber trigger. Action work and bedding by Randy Cain of R+D quite a while ago now. An NXS F1 3.5-15x sits in TPS aluminum rings on a TPS 20MOA base. Together, this rifle and I have made quite a few interesting shots over the years.

2) Unexpectedly, a Ruger Precision Rifle came home with me rather recently. I put a Bushnell LRHS 4.5-18 on there in an SWFA SSALT mount, since these scopes are really intriguing. I figured this was a perfect starter combo for anybody starting out in LR shooting, and would serve as a great side-by-side test for the overall Creedmoor endeavor. I swapped the grip to a G27 and the stock to an A2, otherwise it's a factory rifle.

The Ammo

My plan is to shoot the least expensive ammunition that can resist vertical stringing at distance. Obviously there isn't much to choose from, but given the run on this cartridge I have a feeling that in another year there will be more. The idea of this thread is to report on ammo and rifle performance, and if I see this approach as remaining competitive with handloaders.

The Test Conditions

Fortunately, I have access to a monthly match at the local gun club. This event shoots steel targets from 220y to 850y, and they aren't large. Even better, each shot involves a target transition, requiring new elevation and a good wind read for each shot. Add a somewhat narrow time window and a rule about no sighters and no rear bags, and you have yourself a great practical long range laboratory. While a 3/4 MOA rifle with a repeatable scope could (in the right hands) win this match every time, a 1/2 MOA or better rifle and wind-cheating bullet can really save you from minor mistakes. Even my old .308 with 155gr Scenars had a serious disadvantage in this game, it is almost always won by long 6mm or 6.5mm projectiles. Since this match is my only excuse to shoot these days, most of the reports will come from what happens here. I'll be coming from the perspective of having maintained the top yearly stats in the game for a few years, mostly with the 6mmSLR.

So......this season we find out how well factory ammo can work in a precision rifle game that, while not a bellybenchrest F-Class match, is still much more about precise shot placement than "tactical" matches.

First, here's the reason I'm not sitting at the reloading bench this year:



Oh yeah, they are shooting another point I had to prove: $1000 off-the-shelf precision system (rifle, optic, base, rings) that is not a crap Savage or an overpriced Remington. Tikka T3 Lite .223 with the 1:8 twist, spins 77gr Noslers like no tomorrow.  Headshots at 400y anyone?



Here's my test bed, there are some really good shooters in this group.

*NOTE* top update is the most recent

Deer Season 10/18/17

Filled my tag today from 340y across a steep canyon around 10,000ft elevation. Used the RPR, 130gr Prime, Bushnell LRHS, and SiCo Hybrid. Didn't have much time, so took a body shot to make certain. Was looking for a behind-the-shoulder hit, I clipped the back of the shoulder blade going in and it fragged the opposite shoulder. He jumped/flopped down the steep hillside about 25yd and that was it. Solid impact sound, knew he wasn't going anywhere. Lost the opposite shoulder and related neck meat, but the rest was fine. Nice mature muley buck, 3x4 and will fill the freezer.

600yd F-Class target test 9/16/17

In order to get a better handle on consistency of the Prime ammo in the RPR, I shot a 22-rd string as part of a local 600-yard prone event. The two sighters were in the 10 ring, and the 20 shots scored 196 with (4) 9 ring hits. I shot off my pack, with my light beanbag in the rear, so this was not like a bench-rest test. The waterline was very nice, and the fairly calm air didn't blow things around much. I ended up holding between 0-0.3 Mil of wind for that string. If I had been on a rest and heavy bags, staying within the 1-MOA 10 ring would have been pretty easy I think.



Summer Update 8/5/17

After shooting the RPR w/PRIME ammo in a couple more varmint matches this year, it's pretty clear that this combo works great. Consistently getting 2nd place in the top class, keep in mind this is against custom rifles, more expensive optics, and handloaded 6mm's. Also, most of the guys shoot an order of magnitude more rounds/year than I do at the moment. The game is really about wind reading and lack of vertical stringing.

I've also had the R700's barrel shortened and fit the MackBros 7.62L brake and suppressor. Unfortunately, it didn't change the grouping really when I tested it, still hovering just under 1 MOA. I'll report back when I go out and get some new velocity information - I picked up a LabRadar and have been monkeying with that some.

Also, I picked up another deer tag this year, so I'll be taking the RPR on that trip again. Should be fun.

Lessons so far:

1. In a "practical" sub-1000y competition where 1/2 MOA system capability is plenty good enough to win, off-the-shelf rifle/optic/ammo *can* be very competitive.

2. Factory ammo tests and reports are all subject to the idiosyncrasies of the rifle used (particularly the chamber, bore, and barrel contour dynamics). So, when somebody (like me) reports back with factory ammo accuracy testing, unless they are doing so with a known-accurate chamber/bore and attempting to tune barrel harmonics to the load, take the results with a grain of salt. What does work for them might not work for you, and vice-versa.

3. I found it interesting that @TSU45's experience with the RPR barrel settling down when adding a can was similar to mine.


BIG Update 03-2017

Suppressor stamp finally made it. I bought a Silencerco Hybrid .46, and man is thing thing awesome. I've not tried it on the Rem 700 yet, need to rethread to 5/8-24 first. This is making all the difference, let me explain:

The RPR has never shot the PRIME 130gr ammo well, like ~1 MOA or so. I was keeping it on a diet of 120gr Amax until after the cans got here and I could really finalize things. Well, adding the suppressor made all the difference in barrel harmonics.Direct-threading the can worked great, but I wanted a QD attachment for using on multiple firearms. I put an ASR .30 cal muzzle break on the RPR and tried without the can - accuracy was still poor with the PRIME, but the brake really toned down the recoil in spite of being .30 cal. Keeping the brake on with the suppressor will also act as an initial baffle to lessen wear on the first one in the stack.Adding the suppressor magically pulled the groups together. The rifle is literally 1/2 MOA or less now with the PRIME, usually holes are touching. That load really works with the factory barrel and the Hybrid. It's stupid accurate now.Recoil went back up some when adding the can, but not as much as without brake and can. I added the Silencerco Anchor Brake for the Hybrid/Omega/Harvester (.30 cal), and that makes a slight difference to the positive side, although not as reduced as the actual muzzle brake and no can.Report --- bloody quiet. As in a really soft sound, basically like shooting a .22 LR high velocity from a long-barreled rifle. Not much difference between the .46 and .30 cal endcaps to my ear, but there might be a little bit of a difference. I'm very comfortable shooting rounds without earpro, so for hunting that will be nice. My AR-15's in 18" and 10.5" are much, much louder with the same suppressor - definitely still need ear pro for those.POI shift by adding the suppressor was 0.5 mil down, that's it. Repeated tests on different days result in the same. Removal and replacement of the Hybrid on the ASR system result in little or no POI shift that I can detect, certainly within 0.1 mil.

Today I checked the extreme range stability of the PRIME 130 in the RPR with the final configuration: 24" factory barrel, ASR .30cal brake, Hybrid with Anchor Brake. The target was placed at 1200 yards, and while there was a 0-5 mph breeze that kept shifting around, it was very readable and stayed stable for minutes at a time.

I used the initial chrono speeds from the first tests, and the drag model in Android Shooter. Come-ups for my atmosphere with a current zero (which I verified immediately before going to 1200) were 10.0 mils. I held what I thought was appropriate wind, and the first shot went right where I was holding. Fine, I held no wind and tried again, this time just under the 18x24" head plate target. Came up 0.1 mil and impacted. Sent 4 more with a little hedging for wind as it came up. These 5 all went into 11.5" vertical spread.

I put my (novice) wife behind the gun, and she went 2 for 2. Fortunately, I saw a wind change and had her hold 1.5 mil off the other side of the target and it worked. Then my 9 year old son tried one with the same hold and hit. My 11yo got up there in time for another wind change and he missed the first two and then hit with a 0.5 mil wind hold.

Here's the target with 9 hits, all in less than 12". I'd say this system is pretty much dialed at this point. Whatever Ruger is using for a factory barrel, I'm impressed.






Update 11-01-16

Second hunt: Nevada mule deer buck at 315 yards after a stalk across a canyon to an elevated shooting position. Used the RPR and 120gr Amax, he was looking when I peeked and I rushed the shot. Pretty much destroyed both front shoulders but it was over in seconds. Not a bullet to shoot anything but necks/heads with.

Update 8-24-16

First hunt: antelope at 340 yards after a 1.5 hour blistering hot crawl fest, quartering away and then turned his head to look back. I held wind for the neck and pressed the R700's trigger. Got back in the scope to see his butt and heels up in the air as the 130 Prime dropped him like a bad habit. I heard the impact with my plugs in. No meat loss on the entry side, exit side blew top half of the neck meat out. No muss, no fuss.

Update 5-8-16

Was out running around with the family and decided to throw a few rounds at distance to see if they remained stable. One mile is a fair piece for factory box ammo, I thought.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/1TV83l_NeD0[/youtube]



UPDATE 4-9-16

Shot the Remington with PRIME 130gr ammo in today's varmint match. Bottom line, it felt nearly as predictable as my 6mm handloads used to. Not quite, but really close. Close enough that it doesn't matter in terms of the "fun" quotient. The cold bore shot is a roughly 10x20 inch steel coyote at 850 yds, and I hit him fairly centered using only the dope from my Shooter program (recall above I only shot the ammo out to ~700yards in testing). The computer dope worked all day.

I got about the same amount of elevation decrease that H4831SC in my 6mm used to get as the day warmed up. My final score was a 30, which was 3 points off the winner. I certainly didn't feel focused enough to get that many hits, so maybe I got a few lucky ones. But there weren't really any "unexplained" misses like there were when I shot the 120gr Amax loads. Missed wind calls and trigger jerking were obvious. The PRIME loads were just money today, and I'm looking forward to trying them in hot weather to see how they hold up. I really liked the fact that the published BC worked out so well.

Next month I plan on shooting the RPR/LRHS/120Amax combination as a demo of a mid-range off-the-shelf solution, and we'll see how that compares. I don't expect it to be top-shelf competitive in this game, but I expect it to be good enough to shoot winning scores for the next class down even with my currently feeble bullet-curving powers.

3/27/16

Velocity: inquiring minds wish to know.

The R700 is still being broken in, but I measured the very first shots out of it, as well as a recent test at the ~200rd mark.

Also, all of the accuracy notes are essentially anecdotal, and simply reflect the results I got. Most of the time I'm not shooting in still or mirage-free conditions. I don't shoot a lot of paper, so I'm not much of a group shooter. If I shoot it around 1 MOA, that means it would probably do 3/4 or better if bolted down. I'm not one of those idiots that shoots 10 3rd groups and then picks the smallest one. We are more interested in whether or not things seem predictable at longer ranges. That's it.

New R700 barrel test results, all factory ammo:
Tair = 30F, round count 0, Oehler 35P, groupings at 100yds

120 Amax - 10rds - Avg 2940 fps - ~MOA
130 PRIME - 9rds - Avg 2831 fps - ~MOA
129 SST Superformance - 5rds - Avg 3010 fps - ~2 MOA

The 120 and 130 loads both felt nice and light in terms of pressure. They also shot around or under MOA at 100yd. The 129's felt a bit more punchy that was evident in muzzle blast as well. Unfortunately the 129's looked like a shotgun pattern.

I cleaned the barrel at 10rds and 30rds.

First match - I shot 120 Amax in my first match of the season, I shot for 24 points. Given the conditions and how I felt that day, I expect that with my 6mmSLR I would have bagged a 29 or so (I've shot lots of scores over 30, including up to 36 or 37). There were a few misses that were definitely not accounted for, due to extra wind or just plain deviation. So, I felt like the ammo was not outshooting me for most of the shots I took.

Still haven't cleaned the barrel again. Probably will around or before the 500 mark.

Ran an R700 test the other day with interesting velocity results:
Tair = 58F, round count = 190, Magnetospeed V2, groupings at 200yd

120 Amax - 10rds - Avg 2997 fps - SD 16 - ~MOA
130 PRIME - 10rds - Avg 2956 fps - SD 15 - ~3/4 MOA
129 SST Superformance - 10rds - Avg 3067 fps - SD 7 - ~2 MOA
143 ELD-X - 10rds - Avg 2740 fps - SD 13 - ~3/4 MOA

Essentially, I got an increase in velocity that is not explained by the ~30F increase in temperature. Yes, the magnetospeed is close to the muzzle compared to the Oehler. Yes, I want to shoot through both, and will in the future. I let the barrel cool every 5 rds, and shot the next 5 into the same group as the previous to get 10rd patterns.
The 129 SST Superformance had the lowest SD but still grouped like crap. The 120 felt mediocre, just like before. The 143's seemed excellent, and didn't feel like much more recoil, but of course I have a brake.

The 130's seemed very good, so I shot another 20 of them at steel. The 130's felt very predictable on steel at 500 and 700 yds, even in annoying switchy breezes that had me holding off the targets first on one side then the other. No problem making 700yd shots on a ~10" plate and then taking headshots on a head plate. Also no problem keeping on a 4x6" plate at 500.


Oh, did I mention that I brought the new RPR along to test the same ammo on the same chrono on the same day? Haha, science wanted to know. Only 5rds per, so not enough to take to the bank but enough to get an idea of what was going on.

Tair = 58F, round count = 0, Magnetospeed V2, groupings at 200yd

120 Amax - 5rds - Avg 2889 fps - SD 12 - ~MOA
130 PRIME - 5rds - Avg 2871 fps - SD 12 - ~MOA
129 SST Superformance - 5rds - Avg 2999 fps - SD 11 - ~2 MOA
143 ELD-X - 5rds - Avg 2672 fps - SD 22 - ~MOA

Basically, it felt like the same results from the R700, except slower velocities. Once this rifle gets more rounds through it, we'll check again. This is the 24" factory barrel. Both chambers result in the same headspace measurement post-firing, which is like 0.001" over the pre-fired dimension on the PRIME for the large part.

The plan is to shoot the PRIME in the next match.

Also reserving for reports.

Tagged.

Updated 2nd post with initial and 200rd velocity results.

Cool idea and will be following along, but you're losing me with the Savage-bashing "crap" comments...and for what it's worth, I've got a heavy barrel 16" chrome lined PSA off the shelf AR15 that with factory PPU 75 gr BTHP rings the 6" gong at 400m in a full value 15 mph wind all day long with boring regularity. $948 total with optics and everything. But I am guessing most would classify it in the same categories as the "crap" savages therefore it loses credibility haha

Interesting you're only getting ~MOA groups in the tests with ELD-X and Prime BTHP. Most others are getting much tighter...do you contribute that to the barrels not breaking in yet, conditions at the time, etc?

Indeed

OP, a big thank you for taking the time to gather all this information and post it here.
We benefit as much as you do

A lot of custom barrels pick up speed as they get rounds on them.

And it's usually around the 100-150 mark.

I'm not saying Savages don't shoot straight, I've had plenty beat me in square-range comps. I've also watched them get unreliable with boring regularity. In 7-8 years of running LR matches, far and away the repeat offenders for calling alibis related to equipment failure have been Savages. Part of it might be the owner mentality, but part of it is that they are not rifles to go bang around and get dirty with. That's all I have to say about that.

EDIT: also, I have a DPMS AR15 that does the same thing, I love it. In fact, that was what I used for my first LR videos (something that I need to get back to someday). So keep shooting that PSA.

Re: accuracy - like I said in the post, I am not a group shooter and I don't trust my grouping results to wring the last drop of accuracy out of a load. I have good days and bad, but when I test this stuff it is not under "controlled" conditions with cool, stable air, minimal mirage, zero wind, concrete bench, or lead sled. Therefore, if I shoot 10 rds into 1MOA at 200 you can bet that the system would do 1/2 MOA if controlled. Make sense? It's a relative measure. Again, in these tests, group sizes are relative, not absolute. My reports will be mostly based on hitting small, difficult targets under match conditions that I have been shooting for years. I will know whether I'm getting more vertical dispersion than I want, and also how many "unexplained" flyers I get.

For anyone following, in case it's not clear: I'm leaving the group testing to the guys with bench vices and indoor 200m ranges, otherwise it's anecdotal unless someone posts 5-10 separate 10rd groups.

Yup. It's just fun to measure it.

Roger that. I'm the same way regarding groups...some days I feel amazing knowing I got a sub-half MOA group and the next two days with exact same weather conditions I can't duplicate it. Only reason being me and my eyes...curse the hereditary bad eyesight lol

Keep us posted. I'm interested in this new ELD bullet for sure. I've got about 350 6.5 140 gr AMAX bullets on hand that I'll reload first, but any info in advance on this new projectile and tip is good.

Let's put it this way: if given the choice between loading 140 M and 143 X, I would load the X no questions asked, unless I could not get it to work in my gun. Better terminal performance, better BC, no reason why the QC on Hornady's side would be any different. The factory rounds I've shot so far seemed fine. I will likely shoot some more to test at 600 or 1000 on paper later in the year parallel to our F-Class matches.

That all said, after shooting next to a lot of different 6.5's over the years, the consistently impressive projectile for performance in the Creedmoor case has been the 123gr Scenar. Even to 1000+. Personally I think the 140 class is too large for the case, the 6.5x55 capacity is more suited. Too bad for me that Creedmoor factory loads don't involve the 123 Scenar, but then again they'd probably be priced back to 6XC or 6.5x47 prices.

Tagged, thanks for all the work OP looking forward to more info

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_3/3670_.html&page=1&anc=51537#i51537

Post updated with match results for the PRIME ammo. TL:DR I like it and it was competitive with the big reloading guns.

I'm 100% sold on Prime Ammo. Amazing stuff and good people. It may sound crazy but I'm also using Shooter and I use the velocity calibration tool. It's estimating my MV around 3,025 FPS out of my 24" Broughton MTU profile barrel. I don't see how that's possible against the claimed MV on the box. But using those numbers and I was shooting way high. So I'll just keep writing down my data and see where I end up.

Great post, and like you I'm rocking 6.5 CM to be competitive and save time by using factory Ammo.

Updated 2nd post with impromptu video of Prime at 1800 yards.

Second post updated with hunt results.

Sorry for the lag guys, I sort of fell off the wagon until my suppressors started arriving.

1200 yard results for RPR with PRIME 130gr in second post! I'm not going to touch a thing.

Interesting that you saw such an improvement when adding a suppressor because I saw the exact same thing on my RPR.

Yeah great story except the Savage comments. Here's a shocker for you, my Savage BA Stealth in Creedmoor will shoot 1/2 groups at 100 yards suppressed with factory Hornady 147 ELD-M. Here's an a$$ burner for you, I just got into long range shooting and bet the rifle would do better in more capable hands.

Savage butthurt is always expected. Quite often the rifles shoot great on paper at a square range. So do examples from literally all other brands. They just fail a lot, at least on my line, for the last 8+ years. Seem to cost their owners a lot of wasted time and money. It's not personal, dedicated Savage owners, it's just economics. Good luck

Otherwise - incremental summer update in the 2nd post.

I agree with the Savage rifles needing preventative maintenance. But I also remember Remington extractor failure from the old rivited extractor.  Okay that being said the RPR doesn't have longevity on the competition line yet. But I'm looking forward to hearing more reports.

I'm also very curious on RPR longevity and primary failure modes. Every weapon has weak points.

While I also think that current production Remington is getting down there with Savage for build quality, seeing Remingtons go down in the middle of competition has historically been a rarity. Tikka is my favorite off the shelf rifle for build quality.

It's worth noting that sample size for failure info is orders of magnitude above the old days in the 80s and 90s. Both in terms of rifles in service as well as annual round count. It's really a brand new world as far as precision shooting goes within the last 10 years.

The Sako and ar style ejectors did a lot for the Remington action along with the ease to replace the c-clip ejectors. Both Remington and Savage require some preventative maintenance. In the Savage defense that bolt is totally rebuildable, but you have to use common sense and keep good records. I think the Sako would be the same way being their ejector retainer pin wears before the ejector.
To tell you the truth I didn't pay much attention to the ruger ejectors. But when I get it off layaway I'll look closely at it.
One of the best mods I did was to add the Win mod 70 safety to my rem 700 action. It sure makes cleaning the bolt easier. The Tubbs style Sako ejector does collect dust but it's easier to inspect and clean up with a tooth brush.

Shot a 22-rd string at 600y yesterday with the RPR and Prime. Pretty much stayed in the 1-MOA 10-ring on the target, off a field rest. Vertical stringing of the ammo was certainly within 1 MOA at 600. I feel really good about this setup as-is.

Old school Tag

So far the extreme spread of velocity is what is spreading my 550 yard groups. The American Gunner has a 34 fps es and the Hornady match has 38 fps. So I will get a good 2 or 3 shot group then one will drop around two inches. Left to right is good but I'm getting a little vertical dispersion.  I need to try some black box Hornady.  Have you ran the Prime over a chronograph?

What did you mean by this? I'm looking at purchasing a 6.5 rifle with intentions of hunting at about twice this distance or more, should I get a larger round like the 300 win mag?

I read it like anywhere but the head or neck is wasting meat as the bullet is destructive.

If a 120gr Amax destroyed a lot of meat due to rapid expansion. Just think what a 150gr Amax from a  .300 mag would do traveling faster?  I'm not getting exits with either the 123gr AMAX or ELD from my Grendel on hog's. So think of adding 400 fps to them. Makes for a pretty good varmint bullet. But if you put one behind the shoulder it should make for a quick kill with a little rib meat lost.

Oh, I was under the impression that it meant that your not going to be able to kill anything with the round unless you hair for the neck or the head. And is it better to get an exit while hunting? or no?

There are plenty of dead critters with no exit wound. But it's nice if you screw up and have to track a critter. It all depends on the ability of the person behind the trigger. And sometimes even the best screw the pooch.  I like the SST a little better than the Amax round for game animals. But I wouldn't be afraid to hunt with a Berger bullet either. I'd just be more careful about the shots I chose.

To me no exit means the animal got to enjoy all that bullet had to offer and increases the odds of it not moving very far if at all.

Filled my mule deer tag at 340y today with 130gr Prime (Norma HPBT match bullet). Just clipped the back of the shoulder going in, splattered the opposite shoulder. Total fragmentation, no exit. He ran/fell/flopped downhill about 25yd, he was on a steep slope. Not lights out like a CNS, but not prolonged either. Would have preferred a neck shot, but had no time and no wind read across the canyon, so took the obvious aim point in the seconds I had available.