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Posted: 8/31/2017 8:10:28 AM EDT
I've used a lot of Varget in 5.56 & .308 loads, primarily with 77 & 168/175gr bullets, and it has always been one of my favorite powders. Of course, lately it has been somewhat difficult to find, and when you can find it, it's been $30+ per pound. I'm still sitting on around 10-12lbs of it I bought several years back, but have slowed down loading with it due to availability.
On the other hand, seems like IMR4064 is a lot easier to find, and generally cheaper. I've seen quite a few 8lb jugs of it lately for under $160, and I am thinking of picking up a few kegs to use instead of Varget. Anyone actually prefer 4064 over Varget in .308 or .223/5.56? I know some people are duplicating FGMM 168/175s with 4064, so it must be a pretty decent powder. |
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Posted: 8/31/2017 8:15:30 AM EDT
[#1]
4064 is a very good powder but is more effected by temp swings than Varget which is very temp stable. If you can;t find Varget then 4064 will work fine but just keep an eye on your velocities in cold or hot weather.
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Posted: 8/31/2017 8:47:51 AM EDT
[#2]
4064 like Varget is an extruded "Stick" powder -- however the individual powder grains are longer. You may have bridging across the openings of powder measures/droppers or case necks (.223 or 5.56mm).
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PA, USA
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Posted: 8/31/2017 8:57:51 AM EDT
[#3]
You may want to look for 3031 instead of 4064.... just a thought (4064 is a good 30-30 to 30-06 powder, 3031 is a great 308 powder and works well in 223 loads).
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Posted: 8/31/2017 1:03:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Well, I ended up picking 16 lbs of 4064 and 10 lbs of RL15. I didn't need that much, but couldn't pass on the price....the 4064 was $275 for 16lbs, and the RL15 was $75/5 lbs. I would have gladly bought Varget at that price, but it's still well over $200/8 lbs.
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WV, USA
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Posted: 8/31/2017 2:11:21 PM EDT
[#5]
I am a big fan of 8208 It is much like Varget but smaller "sticks" It meters very well through my Harrell's precision meter and the $20 Lee meter. For some reason the Hornady meter that sits on my Hornady LNL isn't as uniform as the other two with that powder.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/31/2017 5:08:45 PM EDT
[#6]
4064 is a good powder for 223-308, but so is 3031, 4895, Varget, RL15, and about 10 others.
A skilled reloader can take Any set of cases, Any match grade bullet, Any powder, and Any suitable primer; and develope a great shooting load. It is only when you want your load to shoot even better than his load that the choice of powder really makes any difference at all. |
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Posted: 8/31/2017 5:38:20 PM EDT
[#7]
4064 would not be a choice for 223 at all.
A good alternative especially for heavy 223 would be TAC! Varget is on the shelves of every distributor out there. Whether our LGS has it is a different story! Sure there are some shortages.... H4350 and IMR 4451 come to mind. Some of the Alliant powders are not always in stock, and some of the Alliant distributors do not have the new Sport Pistol. Anyone selling IMR 4064 for $160 #8 is loosing money. I find it personally funny when people talk of such cheap prices for LGS. Ain't no way! I call BS on all those people. There is no way some LGS is going give powder away at less than cost plus the cost of shipping etc. NOPE! Never Going To Happen! |
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Posted: 8/31/2017 8:20:46 PM EDT
[#8]
I've never loaded any 3031, although I do believe I have a pound or two in the cabinet. I've loaded a lot of TAC in 5.56, its been my primary powder for 69-77s for several years (and still have a couple jugs left). In fact, its probably my favorite 5.56 powder simply because it meters so well.
I ended up picking up 16lbs of 4064, 10lbs of RL15, and 8lbs of H4350....along with 3k primers. Total for everything was $600, so I should be set for a while.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 9/1/2017 10:41:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Harv24]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
4064 is a very good powder but is more effected by temp swings than Varget which is very temp stable. If you can;t find Varget then 4064 will work fine but just keep an eye on your velocities in cold or hot weather. |
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Posted: 9/1/2017 11:20:48 PM EDT
[#10]
I know you already made your purchase, but would also suggested IMR4895 the next time you stock up. I've long been a fan of it in my M1 Garand loads as well as for .308. Found a couple of really good .223 loads similar to my favorite varget loads.
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Posted: 9/2/2017 12:54:58 AM EDT
[#11]
I've loaded a decent amount of H4895 behind Hornady 75s, and they shot very well out of a Savage 10FP. I still have 4-6lbs of it laying around, will probably save it for the Garand.
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Posted: 1/28/2018 8:42:36 PM EDT
[#12]
I use 4064 in my .243 (that I rarely shoot anymore). Always had great results with it.
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Posted: 1/28/2018 9:31:48 PM EDT
[#13]
4064 just plain works well in a lot of precision applications. I have never found it to be temperature unstable. Not like ball powders anyways.
At this point I will always keep 4064 around. It’s a go to powder in any milsurps caliber I load. I would not waste my time getting it in .224 necks. Yes it would shoot fine I just don’t feel like futzing it into the case. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2018 1:53:15 AM EDT
[#14]
Did they reformulated imr 4064? Seems like my jugs are smaller grain than everybody acts like.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2018 10:06:36 PM EDT
[#15]
my 308 LOVES 4064. When i first started reloading, I mostly used Varget and XBR. XBR worked REALLY well for my 223 but not so much for my 308. Varget was great for my 308 but then i was told by a few older guys to give 4064 a shot. Did a work up and holy crap, MUCH better groups. Infact I had to nodes, 41.8 and 44.0. The 41.8 I use, mostly cause the 44.0 was crazy HOT.
I use 4064 for my gf's 243 as well and get great results with it. I been using 4350 for her 7mm and love it. |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2018 5:48:00 PM EDT
[#16]
You will normally get very good accuracy with 4064 buy velocity will be a bit slower than you can get with Varget before pressure sign shows up. You will see this more in 223/556 than the 08.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2018 8:07:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jason280:
I've never loaded any 3031, although I do believe I have a pound or two in the cabinet. I've loaded a lot of TAC in 5.56, its been my primary powder for 69-77s for several years (and still have a couple jugs left). In fact, its probably my favorite 5.56 powder simply because it meters so well. I ended up picking up 16lbs of 4064, 10lbs of RL15, and 8lbs of H4350....along with 3k primers. Total for everything was $600, so I should be set for a while. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15608/20170831_121115-295155.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15608/20170831_121128-295156.JPG |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2018 8:10:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: avvidclif]
[#18]
Oops
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Posted: 1/30/2018 8:50:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: drfroglegs]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By azmp5:
my 308 LOVES 4064. When i first started reloading, I mostly used Varget and XBR. XBR worked REALLY well for my 223 but not so much for my 308. Varget was great for my 308 but then i was told by a few older guys to give 4064 a shot. Did a work up and holy crap, MUCH better groups. Infact I had to nodes, 41.8 and 44.0. The 41.8 I use, mostly cause the 44.0 was crazy HOT. I use 4064 for my gf's 243 as well and get great results with it. I been using 4350 for her 7mm and love it. I love 4064 for virtually all mil surplus stuff. I think I have 16lbs of it and 16lbs of varget! Think I have a problem... Taken from the internet:  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/31/2018 8:46:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Harv24]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By drfroglegs:
This. I use 4064 for a whole lot of stuff, but I've switched over to Varget for my precision and hunting stuff due to the temp stability. Varget is insanely temp stable while 4064 is not. I love 4064 for virtually all mil surplus stuff. I think I have 16lbs of it and 16lbs of varget! Think I have a problem... Taken from the internet: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/322543/image-436379.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By drfroglegs:
Originally Posted By azmp5:
my 308 LOVES 4064. When i first started reloading, I mostly used Varget and XBR. XBR worked REALLY well for my 223 but not so much for my 308. Varget was great for my 308 but then i was told by a few older guys to give 4064 a shot. Did a work up and holy crap, MUCH better groups. Infact I had to nodes, 41.8 and 44.0. The 41.8 I use, mostly cause the 44.0 was crazy HOT. I use 4064 for my gf's 243 as well and get great results with it. I been using 4350 for her 7mm and love it. I love 4064 for virtually all mil surplus stuff. I think I have 16lbs of it and 16lbs of varget! Think I have a problem... Taken from the internet: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/322543/image-436379.JPG |
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Posted: 1/31/2018 9:12:56 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24: I'm pretty sure DoD went with 4064 for the MK318 rd because of its temp stability.... |
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Posted: 1/31/2018 2:41:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Might have been more stable than others they looked at but doesn't mean it's the most stable. Having shot Varget from single digits to over 100 degrees I am very secure in it's temp stability. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Originally Posted By Harv24: I'm pretty sure DoD went with 4064 for the MK318 rd because of its temp stability.... |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/31/2018 3:42:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Reorx]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24:
I thought one of the primary reasons that the Military picked 4064 for the MK318 round was for the temp stability. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By Rob01:
4064 is a very good powder but is more effected by temp swings than Varget which is very temp stable. If you can;t find Varget then 4064 will work fine but just keep an eye on your velocities in cold or hot weather. 
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Posted: 1/31/2018 7:09:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24: I'm pretty sure DoD went with 4064 for the MK318 rd because of its temp stability.... Still, that doesn't begin to compare to the numbers the "extreme" line from Hodgdon has shown. I would love to see some standardized bomb calorimetry measurements from all the powders for a more apples-to-apples comparison. |
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Posted: 1/31/2018 10:39:04 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Reorx:
One consideration may have had to do with history/timing... Hodgdon introduced their "Extreme" line of smokeless powders in 1996. The Varget that was produced before 1996 was not the same as what is available today... If the decision choosing 4064 pre-dates 1996, the playing field was different then and the decision was based on the data available at the time... just trying to add historical perspective Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Reorx:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By Rob01:
4064 is a very good powder but is more effected by temp swings than Varget which is very temp stable. If you can;t find Varget then 4064 will work fine but just keep an eye on your velocities in cold or hot weather. Now granted, the ,Mil is not the end all be all when it comes to things like powder selection, but I want to think that they along with Federal, did some serious testing to come to that conclusion... and supposedly the FMGold Medal ammo in 168 gr uses the same powder, and that shit has a good reputation for accuracy out of a wide cross section of .30 cal bolt guns. I'm a big fan of it because when I load it to the MK316 load spec with a 175 gr bullet, it shoots extremely accurately out of my rifle, and I can use it to load for my m1A and Garand as well, keeping my powder logistics simple. And since it's a stand by tried and true powder, and not one of the latest sexy new powders, it's almost always available to me at local sources when everything else is sold out. Are there powders that are better and more stable... I'm guessing so, but I would defer to Rob and the others with more experience then myself... Hell... I don't want 4064 to get to popular....
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 2/1/2018 10:35:02 PM EDT
[#26]
I run 4064 exclusively in my 7-08AR and 150gr bullets, from winter to summer. One rule i always go by is to do load dev. in the hotter months so my data would slow as it got colder rather than run into pressure issues as it got hotter.
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USA
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Posted: 2/2/2018 8:51:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nihilsum]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24: The MK316 rd ( I edited my posts as I had incorrectly had MK318) replaces the M118 match rd in 2016 time frame. research I saw over at Snipers Hide showed that IMR4064 was the verified powder used in the Federal made load, and it was chosen based on temperature stability as one of the main criteria. Hell... I don't want 4064 to get to popular.... As to why it was chosen over varget, it's not a location of manufacturing thing- I think current 4064 is Swiss. I've actually not seen any extruded powders that are US-made in recent years. A lot of the ball powders still are, and the shotgun or pistol flake powders. |
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Posted: 2/3/2018 12:13:25 AM EDT
[#28]
I run 4064 exclusively in my 7-08AR and 150gr bullets, from winter to summer. What's your barrel length, and how is velocity? I have a heavy barrel 7mm-08 that load for, and have around 500 SMK 150gr bullets just waiting to be loaded... |
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Posted: 2/3/2018 8:58:18 AM EDT
[#29]
IMR 4064 has always been my go to powder for mid range loads in semi auto .308's. I don't know where they are getting it's unstable unless people are pushing it past the pressure points. And then even H4350 starts to rise on the heat cold curve. I'll admit I haven't used it in years and have switched to Varget. But Varget has a few more uses in the .223 where IMR 4064 seems to transition up the ladder to the .30/06 better.
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Posted: 3/25/2021 9:07:08 PM EDT
[#30]
What about IMR4166?
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Posted: 3/25/2021 9:39:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Techsan02: What about IMR4166? It’s a good powder. One of the Enduron powders and with good temp stability. Would be a good option to Varget like IMR4451 being a good replacement for H4350. |
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QC, CAN
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Posted: 3/31/2021 7:27:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Techsan02: What about IMR4166? If you have access to Varget don't waste your time with 4166. I'll even take 4064 over 4166. Ask me how I know 
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USA
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Posted: 4/2/2021 6:58:54 PM EDT
[#33]
4064 works pretty well with shorter barrels like a 16 inch. But if your shooting out of a 24 inch barrel for 308, varget is your friend. You want the powder burnt by the time the bullet is exiting the barrel. This is where varget shines. 8208 is a real good powder. Its stout. Better for shorter barrels. I use 8208 in my 12 inch 308 AR with great results. Bullet selection is important to with powders. heavier the bullet will require different powders for optimum performance. Just got to do your research.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2021 4:53:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Imo, for 69/77 grain bullets in 223, nothing beats xbr. And im a huge varget/4064 fan. I've found 4064 is better for 308 but varget is a good "back up" to either round.
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Posted: 4/9/2021 12:56:16 AM EDT
[#35]
When I try to explain 4064, the easy way is to say it is about the mid point between Varget and 4895.
If they don't understand this, then I know I have to drop way back in the powder (burn rate) discussion. It does take a while to develop experience with a wide spectrum of powders before you develop an instinct for which ones do well in particular case sizes, bullet weights, and barrel lengths. Everybody has to start somewhere, and I make the rookies start staring at the burn rate charts pretty early on. I realize we don't need to turn everyone into a rocket scientist but... when times get like the ones we are in now and they wonder how I know at a glance which powder can do a reasonable job of substituting for the one they can't find.... this is when that background comes into play. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2021 6:28:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By azmp5: Imo, for 69/77 grain bullets in 223, nothing beats xbr. And im a huge varget/4064 fan. I've found 4064 is better for 308 but varget is a good "back up" to either round. What makes you say this? Ive got a bunch of N140 (similiar to Varget) and H335 thus far. My very rudimentary understanding tells me that H335 might do better with the shorter 10.5" barrels and the N140 would be better for 16" 556 and 308. I ask because H335 is faster than 8208XBR and N140 is slower. Ive also heard alot of people like TAC as a do everything powder. |
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Posted: 9/27/2021 11:16:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thump_rrr: If you have access to Varget don't waste your time with 4166. I'll even take 4064 over 4166. Ask me how I know Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thump_rrr: Originally Posted By Techsan02: What about IMR4166? If you have access to Varget don't waste your time with 4166. I'll even take 4064 over 4166. Ask me how I know Not able to find an accurate load? |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 3:09:15 PM EDT
[#38]
4064 has always been a great performer in any 0-8 cartridge and similar. There are other alternatives for more speed but it is one of those few powders that stands out as an accuracy choice in anything 0-8
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/22/2021 6:31:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#39]
I like IMR4064, and it's an excellent 30-06 powder, particularly for the Garand. However, it's a very large grain powder, that meters terribly for .223, and won't flow into the casings very well. It's also hard, so will crunch and munch in a powder drop, if you use such. So hard, that at times you will collapse a .223 neck, if a kernal doesn't want to slice. If you're mass-charging each round, that's fine - but be prepared to deal with powder bridging a lot as well. It's really intended to go into a wider .30" sized hole, not a little .22" hole. It's also just a tiny bit on the slow side, so will take large charges to shoot well in .223, and likely be compressed. Again, remember, it's a very hard large kernal powder, so it's not going to compress super great. In general, I won't use it in .223. As others say, 3031 is a much better .223 powder, though it too doesn't do super great with a powder drop. That's where 8208 shines, and if you haven't figured it out by now, most folks who run a progressive eventaully graduate to 8208. If mass charging, there are lots of other options still.
I've also found that it likes to run best at a larger charge. Be it pressure or void, but velocity standard deviation improves as charge size increases, in my experience. IMR4166 is a product improved version of 4064, with the more recent technological improvements, and worth considering for any round that runs 4064. It too is a pretty large kernal, but it still meters better than 4064 In your case, I'd run the 4064 in the .308. The .308 shooters I know, really really like 4064. |
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Posted: 10/23/2021 12:38:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol]
[#40]
IMR-4064 sucks for .223. It's burn rate is close to perfect, but getting those long grains through through a .224" ID case neck is a pain.
Picking one powder that works great in .308 and .223 is easy: Varget Vihtavuori N140 H4895 IMR-8208-XBR RE-15. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 7:49:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol]
[#41]
Norma 203-B (virtually identical to RE-15)
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Posted: 11/14/2021 8:00:18 PM EDT
[#42]
IMO IMR-4064 isn't a good choice for .223. The burn rate may be good, the volume needed with those large grains becomes problematic. Getting it to pass through a .222" diameter case neck without bridging may be more trouble than it's worth.
Several people have reported excellent results on target, so what do I know. It may be a sleeper powder for .223. I have used IMR-3031 in .223 (22.5 grains with Hornady 60 hp flat base varmint bullets). Accuracy and reliability were great. Unfortunately Hornady discontinued that bullet. It was one of my favorite do all bullets providing excellent accuracy and a economical price. I bought close to 7000 of them for $7.00 per 100 in the 1990's and used them for blasting ammo mostly. Sub MOA and cheap. |
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