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Posted: 3/9/2012 3:17:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 1:27:03 PM EST by OdDuMet]
95gr TTSX - Not Impressed

Well I just had some less than steller results from the 95gr TTSX last weekend on pigs. On one pig, I put one through the middle of the shoulder. Dropped but kept squirming. I put 2 more in him while he was moving around. Got all my shat together, folded up my bipod, dropped down the PVS and started walking toward him and saw he was GONE! The last two shots ended up being pretty high above the shoulder (higher than they should be). All three shots exited. Shot at 8PM. Found the Panzer Pig STILL ALIVE at 2PM the next day.


I had two more ssssssssstt....wack! hits on two other pigs that ran off the next day. One was a shot I was confident was clean. The second was running. Since they werent recovered, there is no way to know for sure where they were hit. We were on a neighbors fence line or we likely could have found at least one. Could hear him squealing and raising hell over there. Any way, I'm not impressed.


Guy that was with me was shooting a 25-06 with 115gr Ballistic tips. 2 pigs shot, one shot each. Neither shot exited, massive damage inside. None took a step. Let his buddy shoot one and he shot it in the rear ham. Pig started doing donuts with his ass end not working very well. One more shot center of mass in the gut dropped him cold (the guy wasn't a great shot obviously). Both rear hams were massively damaged. I think the TSX would have just poked a hole through unless it hit a bone.


I'm Gonna try the 120gr Hornady SST's. I miss the mass destruction of my 300 Win Mag with the Nosler 165 Ballistic tip. Countless animals from coyotes to a 340 lb Aoudad @ 60yds in the center of the shoulder, ZERO steps taken by any of them afterward. The SST's seem similar to the Nosler Ballistic tips. I wish it was 100 or 110gr for a little more velocity. I REALLY wish Nosler had a 100gr Ballistic Tip - Hunting (not Varmit) to go with the 100 gr Accubond.


Night Vision:

D740 with a sweet tube. I got it from HTR - Very impressed!
A guy with a $500 gen 1 scope asked if he could look through it. He was floored. It was about an 80% moon and a clear night. I could ID pigs from deer or cattle at 4-500 yds easy.


FLIR HS-307 Thermal Camera
Very impressed with it for what I bought it for. Long range scanning of open areas. I was able to ID pigs from deer or cows at 400 yds once they picked their head up. I took some pics with it. I'll try to get them uploaded and posted.

It was not the best thermal tool for walking through the brush looking for the down pig. The magnification is too high and constant focusing required. It probably would have worked though if I had looked in the right place. There are always tradeoffs.



Pig#1 High Shoulder shot quartering toward me slightly, dropped and never got back on it's feet. Took a few minutes to die and stop threshing. Bullet recovered under the hide on the far side rib area. Looked like a barnes commercial at the higher velocity end, all pedals touching the base. Sow, about 200 lbs. Pot bellied fat as hell.

Weight guess info: the length of the barrel w/ suppressor attached in equivalent to a std 22" barrel. The OAL of the entire gun is with the stock in that position is 40".



Pig #2 High Shoulder shot, dropped. Took a few minutes to die and stop thrashing around. Boar, about 160 lbs.




Coyote: Unknowingly walked up about 75 yds from him. Kinda surprised me he didnt see us and bolt in the bright moonlight. I was wearing my PVS-14 gen 3, mediocre tube. I though... huh, that clump/blob thing looks odd.... and I think it might have moved. Switched to the D-740. Holy crap that's a coyote plain as day. Went prone, shot in the chest. Bang-Flop.



Two pigs my friend shot:

Link Posted: 3/9/2012 3:22:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 12:48:16 PM EST by OdDuMet]
Pig #3 AKA the Panzer Pig. Boar, about 140 lbs.

1 shot center of shoulder, two high shoulder/neck area.
Found him alive the next afternoon.
Pic is with the 5.56 I finished him with the next day.





Exit wounds. #1, the one low in the center-low shoulder is obvious. There are two more. #2 straight up from the center of the shoulder about 2" from the top of the back. #3 is right of #2 and about 4" from the top of the back.




Internal damage from hit #1.



What was left of the carcass after we field stripped the hams, shoulders and loin the previous afternoon. Yotes and buzzards move quick.

Link Posted: 3/9/2012 3:29:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 4:54:38 AM EST
Sounds like it was a fun hunt. I haven't shot any of the 95gr ttsx's. However, I've killed quite a few with the 85gr TSX's. I've also had good luck with the 100 gr accubonds and the 120 sst's. I'm with you I wish they made a 100 gr SST. The 6.8 isn't my .308, but its a great trade off in weight and killing power.

Was it very humid out with the thermal? We've been using the 307 out hunting in rice fields, and the range has been very impressive! I agree not the best in the woods though, a little to much magnification. A buddy of mine has a 640 flir 18 with the 3x lens. He's going to let me take it out one night so I can see how it compares in the range department.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 5:08:02 AM EST
been having luck with the 55gr fmj. for .223... this year got's me a bunch of 55gr hps yet ta fire a round... hog's tis getting pretty scarce around here...
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 6:26:51 AM EST
Aim for the neck.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 6:45:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By itsARanchrifle:
Aim for the neck.



Yep. I take em down with 55gr fmj with neck shots all of the time.

Link Posted: 3/10/2012 7:18:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 1:04:08 PM EST by OdDuMet]
OK I was shooting consistently high that night which seemed odd. I had sighted the rifle in at 1.5" high at 100yds, but I decided to put a new mount on it, so I had to re-sight. That night the 100yd range was flooded. The best I could get was about 45yds. I pulled out my iPhone ballistics calculator and ran some numbers. I knew the D740 was higher than most scopes, so I changed the scope height to 2" and came up with about 0.25" high at 50yds to get 1.5" high at 100.

I just went and actually measured the scope on the rifle and measured 3 1/16" over center line of bore.
I plugged that in with 0.3" high at 45yds and got this:



Mystery solved and lesson learned. Garbage in, garbage out....


This is what it actually looks like at 1.5" high at 100 yds.

Link Posted: 3/10/2012 7:24:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 12:53:26 PM EST by OdDuMet]
Originally Posted By krpind:
Tag for the pics.

Did you recover the first pig?

Pics of the wound?


Pig #1 & #2 never got up after being shot. There are pics of them above, but I didn't take any damage pics. The two I never recovered were from the next night. They ran about 50yds across a fence onto a neighboring property, so I couldn't go look.

I still can't believe Pig #3 took that bullet right through the boiler room and was still alive the next day.... (see skinned out / damage pic above)

Anyway, this is the bullet I recovered from pig #1. It was the only one that didn't exit. That one was about 200lbs and at a bit of an angle. Bullet recovered just under the hide in the rib area on the aft side.

Oh and by the way, Go Horns!


Link Posted: 3/10/2012 7:47:38 AM EST
Thanks for the writeup.

BTW, pics are not working for me. Anyone else having trouble? I normally see posted pics fine.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 10:51:32 AM EST
No pics.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 12:40:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 12:51:11 PM EST by OdDuMet]
RE: pics, can you see them now?
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 1:54:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
RE: pics, can you see them now?


Yep, they`re working now.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 1:57:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
RE: pics, can you see them now?


Yep, they`re working now.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 3:04:59 PM EST
Man that one hog should have been dead with all that copper through him, surprised that he survived until the next day when you finished him off.

Nice gear and equipment, thanks for the write up too.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 3:14:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
RE: pics, can you see them now?

Yep! Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 3:34:12 PM EST
Where abouts were you hunting? I hunt out near Franklin and use almost the same technique: FLIR B60, D740 and PVS14. They don't stand much of a chance with that kind of tech in your bag. It wasn't long ago that I couldn't get one to save my life and man was that frustrating. I've switched to the Pro Hunters and don't have hogs running off anymore; not sure if you've given thema shot or not. Thanks for the info and pics.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 4:34:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 4:55:18 PM EST by thedehoganator]
I've lost dozens and dozens with the TSX 110 gr. 6.8.....62 gr. 5.56...150 gr. 308.

been asking hornady for a V-max in around the prazed 85 gr.

For as the 85 TSX I've lost all four hogs shot in the last several weeks (the same as all other hole punchers) , spent 2 hours last night tracking only to see blood drops under the boundary fence.

use only tipped/varmint bullets now, It may proove wrong on the 4-500 lb'r but I just can't loose the 1-200 hogs till then.

just had I guy from Georgia drop a good hog with a 60 gr. v-max (5.56) and he cut off his head, showing 'soft ball' sized damage to the neck with no exit.

don't have time for 'NECK SHOTS' all the time to trust hole punching bullits







It is frustrating to spend the money on high dollar ammo and the cheap stuff stops the hogs.

Link Posted: 3/10/2012 7:43:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 7:47:28 PM EST by Flintknapper]
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
Pig #3 AKA the Panzer Pig. Boar, about 140 lbs.

1 shot center of shoulder, two high shoulder/neck area.
Found him alive the next afternoon.
Pic is with the 5.56 I finished him with the next day.


Am I understanding you correctly....that the pig pictured was shot the previous day (1st shot through the center of the shoulder, next two shots high) and then you killed it the next day with a 5.56?

I can see how the high shots would have been nothing more than an annoyance to the hog...they basically constitute shooting the hog "around the edges" and even my 458 SOCOM won't keep them down with that kind of hit. I am not criticizing your shooting, just pointing out the the spinal cord is easily 3"-4" lower than where you shot...so all you hit were the dorsal spines.

I think what really throws me is that the two "high" shots (exits) are consistent with what you have told us. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of damage through that area and the blood is dried...representative of an old wound. The (1st) shot (exit) troubles me for two reasons:

1. It looks fresh (not at all like something many hours old)
2. I've shot many hundreds of pigs and never had one live overnight hit through the vitals, BUT strange things do happen.

How did you happen to find the pig?

Glad you got it.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 8:03:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By thedehoganator:
I've lost dozens and dozens with the TSX 110 gr. 6.8.....62 gr. 5.56...150 gr. 308.


It is frustrating to spend the money on high dollar ammo and the cheap stuff stops the hogs.




I was there when you shot 3 of them with the 85gr TTSX at Murchison and we didn't recover any of them! That should have told you right there.

I see your still using the trailer for the field dressing! Time for a "T-bar" and a battery power sawzall. lol. Would make life easier.

I got my Grendel flash hider installed. I am GTG.
Link Posted: 3/10/2012 11:00:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By thedehoganator:
I've lost dozens and dozens with the TSX 110 gr. 6.8.....62 gr. 5.56...150 gr. 308.

been asking hornady for a V-max in around the prazed 85 gr.

For as the 85 TSX I've lost all four hogs shot in the last several weeks (the same as all other hole punchers) , spent 2 hours last night tracking only to see blood drops under the boundary fence.

use only tipped/varmint bullets now, It may proove wrong on the 4-500 lb'r but I just can't loose the 1-200 hogs till then.

just had I guy from Georgia drop a good hog with a 60 gr. v-max (5.56) and he cut off his head, showing 'soft ball' sized damage to the neck with no exit.

don't have time for 'NECK SHOTS' all the time to trust hole punching bullits

It is frustrating to spend the money on high dollar ammo and the cheap stuff stops the hogs.


You've got that right - I won't use anything but Hornady V-MAX on pig or javelina any more... It's priced right and drops them DRT if you do your part. I've used the .223, 7.62x39, and .308. It's all very consistent and reliable, and no lost critters.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 4:16:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
Originally Posted By thedehoganator:
I've lost dozens and dozens with the TSX 110 gr. 6.8.....62 gr. 5.56...150 gr. 308.


It is frustrating to spend the money on high dollar ammo and the cheap stuff stops the hogs.




I was there when you shot 3 of them with the 85gr TTSX at Murchison and we didn't recover any of them! That should have told you right there.



Can we get a little more detail on some of these "failures".

I realize the bullet might not be ideal for all types of hunting...but these reports seem to go against what many others of us have experienced.

Were these shot under controlled conditions with KNOWN to be good shot placement...or were these pigs some that were "ambush" hunted and struck "someplace" and not recovered, it makes a difference.

I know DeHog hunts them both ways.....with a certain amount of pigs not recovered but "assumed" dead. What I don't know is what bullet was used each time or the shot placement.

Also, just because a pig doesn't drop DRT...doesn't mean the bullet failed, just means you need to pick another place to shoot them (CNS) or possibly use another type of bullet.

ALL TSX's or TTSX's are designed to expand (under certain conditions) but their primary attribute is penetration. Its up to the hunter to decide if it is the optimal bullet for each hunt.

Personally, if I had experienced failures a "dozen" times....I would quit using that bullet long before the tally got up to "dozens and dozens" but maybe someone loaded up a bunch of them and needed to use them....certainly understand that.

Whatever the case, keep on killing them!

Link Posted: 3/11/2012 5:03:58 AM EST
It makes a lot of sense that the solid copper bullets would do better on big, heavy hogs, and the VMAX would do better on small pigs regardless of shot placement. Not saying shot placement isn't key but the only pigs I've shot were between 90-200lbs and solid copper bullets penetrated cleanly and didn't do enough internal damage to drop them. The VMAX bullets shred the smaller pigs inside and stop them dead (or quickly enough for easy recovery). They're designed to expand quickly in thin skinned game at various velocities where as the solid copper bullets are designed to expand in a longer, more controlled fashion for deep penetration in big game at higher velocities. So, the others observations and mine make sense on paper as well as in the field.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 6:01:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By 0uTkAsT:
It makes a lot of sense that the solid copper bullets would do better on big, heavy hogs, and the VMAX would do better on small pigs regardless of shot placement. Not saying shot placement isn't key but the only pigs I've shot were between 90-200lbs and solid copper bullets penetrated cleanly and didn't do enough internal damage to drop them. The VMAX bullets shred the smaller pigs inside and stop them dead (or quickly enough for easy recovery). They're designed to expand quickly in thin skinned game at various velocities where as the solid copper bullets are designed to expand in a longer, more controlled fashion for deep penetration in big game at higher velocities. So, the others observations and mine make sense on paper as well as in the field.


from what ive been reading from this an the other post's... need ta switch back ta the 55gr fmj been using the WPA got two hog's last year, close range heart lung.. had got some 55gr hps TulAmmo an been trying them this year, just not seeing the hog's like years past... hollow points are designed to expand quicker... the 55gr fmj with it's smaller diamitor leaves a small entry wound... bigger callaber bigger entry wound... while i keep my shot's to close range, eye sight not as good as it used ta be, ol timmers am sure have heard of the term shooting threw the pipe an if ya look threw a pipe up close a 2" pipe looks big but at the end of a 3ft pipe it's tinny.. your bullet leaving the barrell starts out same place put as farther it goes out ya get the shot gun effect with all the varibles.. miss calculating the difference in the hight of the scope... at 30 yrds free standing, can pop a can fairly easy, farther out less accuracy.. the 55gr hps tis hitting same as the 55fmj at 30rds & under.. twas gonna try the hps figguring it would have enough ta penatrate, put would be expanding, just incase me shot wasn't perfectamudo... little bit better chance of recovery.. any one use the 55 gr hps at close range? havent done any long range target practice with the hps yet..
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 7:10:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By CORNHOLIO1:
I was there when you shot 3 of them with the 85gr TTSX at Murchison and we didn't recover any of them! That should have told you right there.

I see your still using the trailer for the field dressing! Time for a "T-bar" and a battery power sawzall. lol. Would make life easier.

I got my Grendel flash hider installed. I am GTG.


Corn sometimes you just have to use what is at hand, "T-bar" would be nice. Your are a fine one to be talking about equipment....yea I still have the pic..lol



Did ya wash the blood from gary's murchison hog off the rental before you returned it ?


Dang I hate to do this but FLINT with your 100's and 100's of kills you never seen a damaged hog and say 'looks like he had it rough" you pick on people then condesend (I don't know the real word but its like you write left turns, left turns then at the end of the story you say dang I was tried of turning right..lol) but we need people like us in here.
Here is my most recient living damaged hog...got loose from a snare...bet you could tell that snarer what he did wrong..lol





OP I believe every part of your hunt and it was a good one...I've seen one hog shot thru the right sholder with a exit next to the a-hole and by his pecker...I shot again SEVEN days later, not proud but made a dead hog.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 7:23:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2012 7:28:55 AM EST by thedehoganator]
Originally Posted By Flintknapper:
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
Pig #3 AKA the Panzer Pig. Boar, about 140 lbs.

1 shot center of shoulder, two high shoulder/neck area.
Found him alive the next afternoon.
Pic is with the 5.56 I finished him with the next day.


Am I understanding you correctly....that the pig pictured was shot the previous day (1st shot through the center of the shoulder, next two shots high) and then you killed it the next day with a 5.56?

I can see how the high shots would have been nothing more than an annoyance to the hog...they basically constitute shooting the hog "around the edges" and even my 458 SOCOM won't keep them down with that kind of hit. I am not criticizing your shooting, just pointing out the the spinal cord is easily 3"-4" lower than where you shot...so all you hit were the dorsal spines.

I think what really throws me is that the two "high" shots (exits) are consistent with what you have told us. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of damage through that area and the blood is dried...representative of an old wound. The (1st) shot (exit) troubles me for two reasons:

1. It looks fresh (not at all like something many hours old)
2. I've shot many hundreds of pigs and never had one live overnight hit through the vitals, BUT strange things do happen.

How did you happen to find the pig?

Glad you got it.


Response in above post.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 7:32:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2012 7:40:15 AM EST by OdDuMet]
Originally Posted By Flintknapper:
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
Pig #3 AKA the Panzer Pig. Boar, about 140 lbs.

1 shot center of shoulder, two high shoulder/neck area.
Found him alive the next afternoon.
Pic is with the 5.56 I finished him with the next day.


Am I understanding you correctly....that the pig pictured was shot the previous day (1st shot through the center of the shoulder, next two shots high) and then you killed it the next day with a 5.56?

I can see how the high shots would have been nothing more than an annoyance to the hog...they basically constitute shooting the hog "around the edges" and even my 458 SOCOM won't keep them down with that kind of hit. I am not criticizing your shooting, just pointing out the the spinal cord is easily 3"-4" lower than where you shot...so all you hit were the dorsal spines.

I think what really throws me is that the two "high" shots (exits) are consistent with what you have told us. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of damage through that area and the blood is dried...representative of an old wound. The (1st) shot (exit) troubles me for two reasons:

1. It looks fresh (not at all like something many hours old)
2. I've shot many hundreds of pigs and never had one live overnight hit through the vitals, BUT strange things do happen.

How did you happen to find the pig?

Glad you got it.


The kill shot with the 5.56 was between the eyes, so you can't see it in any of the pics. When I saw him, he was upright facing me from about 10 yds. Not sure if he was standing or laying down, too much brush and I shot fast as soon as I saw him. ( and I shot the damn thing one more time behind the ear too once I walked up to him after the prev night's experience.)

A lot of this didn't compute for me. I was dumfounded that it got up and took off after 3 hits. It's easy to know that the bullet hits with the suppressor. You can clearly hear it, sssssst......THWACK. Of course I know now that 2 of the hits were way too high to be of much use and I also know why they were high (see ballistics charts above).

As to how I found him. We were in a very large field with a creek running through the middle of it. The only cover for 100's of yds was the creek. (Ranch is just off the Trinity river east of Madisonville, TX for the guy who asked) Anyway, from where I shot him and he went down initially, it was 500 yds+ to the nearest cover in three directions, or 75 yds to thick cover along the creek that runs up the middle of the field. I was pretty positive he was in that creek based on the geography and the 3 hits I knew he took. The wooded area of the creek is only 20-40 yds wide. The previous night I went about 100 yds north and 200-300 yds south of where he was last seen along the creek. The next day I went further north, that's when I found him.

On the wound freshness appearance, I'll guess that the shoulder shot got some of the lungs and he was still pushing some blood out of it.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 8:23:39 AM EST
Not sure I really follow your reply Dehog, but pretty much expected you would be "upset" when someone asks sincere questions, none of which you answered.

I can cite instances where bullet performance (Barnes, A-Max, Remington, etc) was less than stellar for unexplained reasons. I just can't cite "Dozens and Dozens" of failures unless the wrong bullet is being used for the wrong purpose, OR shot placement was poor.

I am simply saying that IF some number of your accounts were instances where you were "ambush" hunting (you do a lot of that) with multiple shots taken at running hogs, is it really fair to blame the bullet IF you don't know where the hits were and you NEVER recovered the hog...just "assumed" it was dead (which it probably was).

If logic bothers you....I can't help that. Sorry.

Flint.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 8:29:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
Originally Posted By Flintknapper:
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
Pig #3 AKA the Panzer Pig. Boar, about 140 lbs.

1 shot center of shoulder, two high shoulder/neck area.
Found him alive the next afternoon.
Pic is with the 5.56 I finished him with the next day.


Am I understanding you correctly....that the pig pictured was shot the previous day (1st shot through the center of the shoulder, next two shots high) and then you killed it the next day with a 5.56?

I can see how the high shots would have been nothing more than an annoyance to the hog...they basically constitute shooting the hog "around the edges" and even my 458 SOCOM won't keep them down with that kind of hit. I am not criticizing your shooting, just pointing out the the spinal cord is easily 3"-4" lower than where you shot...so all you hit were the dorsal spines.

I think what really throws me is that the two "high" shots (exits) are consistent with what you have told us. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of damage through that area and the blood is dried...representative of an old wound. The (1st) shot (exit) troubles me for two reasons:

1. It looks fresh (not at all like something many hours old)
2. I've shot many hundreds of pigs and never had one live overnight hit through the vitals, BUT strange things do happen.

How did you happen to find the pig?

Glad you got it.


The kill shot with the 5.56 was between the eyes, so you can't see it in any of the pics. When I saw him, he was upright facing me from about 10 yds. Not sure if he was standing or laying down, too much brush and I shot fast as soon as I saw him. ( and I shot the damn thing one more time behind the ear too once I walked up to him after the prev night's experience.)

A lot of this didn't compute for me. I was dumfounded that it got up and took off after 3 hits. It's easy to know that the bullet hits with the suppressor. You can clearly hear it, sssssst......THWACK. Of course I know now that 2 of the hits were way too high to be of much use and I also know why they were high (see ballistics charts above).

As to how I found him. We were in a very large field with a creek running through the middle of it. The only cover for 100's of yds was the creek. (Ranch is just off the Trinity river east of Madisonville, TX for the guy who asked) Anyway, from where I shot him and he went down initially, it was 500 yds+ to the nearest cover in three directions, or 75 yds to thick cover along the creek that runs up the middle of the field. I was pretty positive he was in that creek based on the geography and the 3 hits I knew he took. The wooded area of the creek is only 20-40 yds wide. The previous night I went about 100 yds north and 200-300 yds south of where he was last seen along the creek. The next day I went further north, that's when I found him.

On the wound freshness appearance, I'll guess that the shoulder shot got some of the lungs and he was still pushing some blood out of it.



Thanks for the additional info. You might try the TSX on a few more pigs and see if works for you, certainly that hog was an anomaly, glad you got him and my hat is off to you for following up on him, you made more effort than a lot of folks would. Good job.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 9:14:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2012 12:50:03 PM EST by OdDuMet]
On bullets, everyone has there own idea of what a bullet should do. Some want the bullet to exit. I had previously always been of the school of thought that "ideal", to me, was to penetrate enough to reach the vitals, then set a bomb off in there. I have had a 100% success rate using Nosler ballistic tips in my .300 Win Mag, even on animal bigger and tougher than pigs. These are the Hunting style ballistic tips. I'm going back to that way of thinking.

Varmint style BT. Thin jacket designed for rapid explosive expansion. Deep penetration is not a design intent of this bullet.



Hunting style BT. Thicker tapered jacket designed for a balance of rapid expansion, decent retained weight and deeper penetration.



The Hornady VMAX is constructed like the Nosler Varmint BT. I THINK it was designed for a .270 win though, so at the reduced 6.8 velocities it may hold together well enough to get adequate penetration. A lot of what I have read around the net would suggest it does pretty darn well. I still have a hard time trusting a bullet constructed as a varmint bullet though. No matter how you look at it, it is not ideal. You would not be using it in the role it was designed for shooting a largish pig.

Unfortunately Nosler does not have an appropriate Hunting Ballistic Tip in .277 for the 6.8 application. The lightest is a 130gr designed for .270 Win velocities of around 3000fps.

Nosler DOES make the Accubond in 100 & 110gr designed for the 6.8. The jacket construction is about identical to the hunting ballistic tip but the jacket is also bonded to the lead core to provide more weight retention and deeper penetration. I have shot one buck with a 100gr accubond and it dropped, but that's it, so I don't have much real world experience with it. It just don't know how it will behave and if it will cause the kind of massive internal damage the Hunting BT's do as they partially fragment. I suspect it will perform somewhere in-between the hole punching solid copper bullets and the Hunting BT's. It is designed to fill a role more similar to their Partition bullet. The cost is 2x what the hunting BT's cost also.

The Hornady SST seems to be Hornady's analog to Nosler's hunting ballistic tips, design intent is the same and the construction is similar. Hornady makes a 120gr SST designed for 6.8 velocities in both a bullet and in loaded ammo. I'd prefer something lighter for more velocity, flatter shooting and max destruction, but the pics and info I have found doing a lot of research indicates that even at 2500fps, the 120gr SST bullet in a 6.8 is pretty darn devastating, and the trajectory isn't that bad either.

I took a step back and admitted to myself that hog hunting at night is usually a 50-125yd affair and over 200 yds is really unlikely. The 120 SST sighted in 1" high at 100 yds will give me a +/- 1.5" trajectory from 50 yds out to 200 yds. and a max point blank range of about 225 yds (3.5" low). I can certainly live with that if the the bullet lives up to my hopes.

Chart for 120 SST, D-740 scope height 3.06", 2500 fps




Nosler, if you are listening, give us a 100gr Ballistic Tip Hunting!

Edit to add, the whole time I was looking for that pig in the creek, I was 100% looking for a body. I NEVER expected it to be alive. Just goes to show you, no matter how much experience you have, or what you think you know, nature will still surprise you at times.

.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 12:06:04 PM EST



Corn sometimes you just have to use what is at hand, "T-bar" would be nice. Your are a fine one to be talking about equipment....yea I still have the pic..lol

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm316/kathydunson/hunterkills005.jpg

Did ya wash the blood from gary's murchison hog off the rental before you returned it ?



Ooooh. Low Blow on he pics Dehog. lol Dang, you can make a come back.
Yea- we took it to a self serve car wash. lol. Gary was happy.

I am so itching to come back. I am still in the market for a 14. You have the best equipment.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 6:14:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
On bullets, everyone has there own idea of what a bullet should do. Some want the bullet to exit. I had previously always been of the school of thought that "ideal", to me, was to penetrate enough to reach the vitals, then set a bomb off in there. I have had a 100% success rate using Nosler ballistic tips in my .300 Win Mag, even on animal bigger and tougher than pigs. These are the Hunting style ballistic tips. I'm going back to that way of thinking.

Varmint style BT. Thin jacket designed for rapid explosive expansion. Deep penetration is not a design intent of this bullet.



The Hornady VMAX is constructed like the Nosler Varmint BT. I THINK it was designed for a .270 win though, so at the reduced 6.8 velocities it may hold together well enough to get adequate penetration. A lot of what I have read around the net would suggest it does pretty darn well. I still have a hard time trusting a bullet constructed as a varmint bullet though. No matter how you look at it, it is not ideal. You would not be using it in the role it was designed for shooting a largish pig.

Unfortunately Nosler does not have an appropriate Hunting Ballistic Tip in .277 for the 6.8 application. The lightest is a 130gr designed for .270 Win velocities of around 3000fps.

Nosler DOES make the Accubond in 100 & 110gr designed for the 6.8. The jacket construction is about identical to the hunting ballistic tip but the jacket is also bonded to the lead core to provide more weight retention and deeper penetration. I have shot one buck with a 100gr accubond and it dropped, but that's it, so I don't have much real world experience with it. It just don't know how it will behave and if it will cause the kind of massive internal damage the Hunting BT's do as they partially fragment. I suspect it will perform somewhere in-between the hole punching solid copper bullets and the Hunting BT's. It is designed to fill a role more similar to their Partition bullet. The cost is 2x what the hunting BT's cost also.

The Hornady SST seems to be Hornady's analog to Nosler's hunting ballistic tips, design intent is the same and the construction is similar. Hornady makes a 120gr SST designed for 6.8 velocities in both a bullet and in loaded ammo. I'd prefer something lighter for more velocity, flatter shooting and max destruction, but the pics and info I have found doing a lot of research indicates that even at 2500fps, the 120gr SST bullet in a 6.8 is pretty darn devastating, and the trajectory isn't that bad either.

I took a step back and admitted to myself that hog hunting at night is usually a 50-125yd affair and over 200 yds is really unlikely. The 120 SST sighted in 1" high at 100 yds will give me a +/- 1.5" trajectory from 50 yds out to 200 yds. and a max point blank range of about 225 yds (3.5" low). I can certainly live with that if the the bullet lives up to my hopes.



Nosler, if you are listening, give us a 100gr Ballistic Tip Hunting!

Edit to add, the whole time I was looking for that pig in the creek, I was 100% looking for a body. I NEVER expected it to be alive. Just goes to show you, no matter how much experience you have, or what you think you know, nature will still surprise you at times.

.


Excellent write up and illustrations.

We use the Accubond in the 6.8 with good success....but have also just started loading the Combined Technology BST. I have used that bullet in a 7mm-08 for hogs and it gives a good combination of penetration and explosive effect (if you prefer to shock your hogs down). Might be something you will want to try.



Link Posted: 3/11/2012 6:35:47 PM EST
Maybe I should try the 100gr Ballistic Tip for my Grendel next time. hmmm.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 6:51:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2012 7:45:43 PM EST by OdDuMet]
Originally Posted By Flintknapper:
Excellent write up and illustrations.

We use the Accubond in the 6.8 with good success....but have also just started loading the Combined Technology BST. I have used that bullet in a 7mm-08 for hogs and it gives a good combination of penetration and explosive effect (if you prefer to shock your hogs down). Might be something you will want to try.


Flintknapper,

The CT BST is a Nosler BST with a black moly coating. Good stuff. May produce slightly higher velocity and less fouling but it's the same basic bullet. I've actually used it in the .300 Win mag fo years. I consider it a Nos BT, and I'll admit I use it bec. the black bullet looks f'n evil in the nickel .300 WM cases I bought...and it works.
Link Posted: 3/11/2012 7:01:01 PM EST
Hear ya!

I load it in 7mm-08 (have for years) and also in .458 SOCOM, works great there too.






Link Posted: 3/11/2012 7:22:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2012 7:55:43 PM EST by OdDuMet]
Nice!!!

I have a .458 SOCOM too. I'm going to have to look into that bullet. I havent used the SOCOM much lately. The ranch I hunt on now is WIDE ass OPEN. Makes the SOCOM traj kinda annoying for me when I see a coyote at somewhere around 200ish. I still cant judge distances through NV well, plus my 740 has a Pinnacle tube and it would prob wilt/choke fast if fired on the SOCOM.

Damn the .458 hits hard though! I've shot several med sized pigs center of mass in the gut running with the Corbon 300gr JHP and they just DROP!

Which weight accubond do you use in the 6.8, 100 or 110? I have about 300 of the 100gr cosmetic seconds, and I'm kinda torn b/t trying them or going to the 120gr SST. The 100gr AB gives a hair better trajectory in daytime distances....but not much.

Some more bullet porn.

.223/65gr Sierra GameKing, 6.8/Barnes 95gr TTSX, .458 SOCOM/300gr. JHP, .300 Win Mag/ CT 165gr BT
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 1:55:15 AM EST


^^^^^^^^^^^

110 gr. AccuBond, 29.0 gr. RE-10 x @ 2650 fps, COL 2.290, S/State brass…small primer, CCI 41.
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 4:18:19 AM EST
Tag to read later.
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 6:48:20 AM EST
Those 458 CT bullets are too prety to shoot. I havent tried them yet but they are on my short list. I am still having too mush fun with my 6.8. I have been having great success with the 85 gr stx.
Nice looking bullets guys
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 7:16:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2012 7:18:11 AM EST by hi-tech-rancher]
First, good write up, Jim. That D-740 rocks doesn't it? I love mine! Its become our most popular NV device, for sure.

I agree that the two hits on the zombie pig were too high. You just hit the dorsal spinal processes (where the muscles insert), but missed the cord. Had that been hit, he would have stopped there. Whenever we shoot a pig in the lungs, they can and often do, go a long way.

For everyone else reading this thread, don't be spooked off a certain bullet by guys that use superlatives like "I ONLY use XXX bullet because 'dem others is crap..." BULLET PLACEMENT is more important than caliber, bullet type, velocity, barrel length, optic, moon phase, or the creaminess of whatever buttery spread you like. When we hit pigs anywhere behnd the shoulder blade, we are hitting the diaphragm and then not much vital exists there. We purposely tell our hunters, to forget the shoulder blade and everything behind it. Even my silhouette targets have custom made vital zones the include about 8" of the area behind the eye, back along the spine and then along the front edge of the shoulder blade. This is the preferred sweet spot, IF you can get a shot at it.

Sometimes, you have to take a snap shot, after they run, or perhaps they are not at the right angle of quarter (see my post on 68 forums where a 120 SST failed to drop a pig at just 40 yards, with what we presume was a well-placed shot....I'll repost it here when I have time). Pigs have a small vital zone. If you hit that, and /or hit bone, you can get upwards of 95% stoppage rate.

I wonder if anyone that hunts pigs....anyone, has ever seen 100% stoppage, death whatever? It just doesn't happen. Jim, I like the way you broke down the bullets and designs. This is what these threads are good for, but I am not a fan of the "I hate dem expensive bullets, or these just flat don't work!" All of them will kill, including the much hated FMJ, if placed carefully. Sometimes, even the "premium" bullets appear to "fail" because the animal runs.

News for everyone: After killing thousands of pigs, with every bullet imaginable, I have now seen approximately 10% of all of them, hit with everything, run off. Its just the nature of the beast, pun intended. With 5.56, I was getting more like 30-40% run-offs because we do shoot at pigs up to 300 yards. I've now killed 3 dead in their tracks with the 95 TTSX from a 12" SBR at exactly 300 yards (they were standing next to my silhouettes on tyhe range) . Its amazing how much people's persepctives differ, but I suppose that's why forums like this are popular/ useful.

I have shot many hundreds of pigs with the 95 TTSX and the 85 TSX, and my kill % has been in the range of 95% with these two bullets. OTOH, I have killed many with the 110 VMax, the 110 OTM, the 110 SPH, the 110 AB, and even the 80 grain GS custom. I don't love any of them, or hate any of them. They're tools and they have to be applied with proper technique, but none of them is perfect, especially when we are talking about killng mini - rhinos. I saw more bullets fail to fully penetrate the vitals when using the 90 Speer TNT, the 110 SPH, and the 110 AB, though others really like these bullets. No surprise there because these are designed to expand and or fragment. Sometimes, they hit the heavier bones and the jackets come off, then they don't penetrate all the way into the vitals. I don't disparage their preference, but I don't choose these first because of my personal experience.

Dehog, this is why we use the phrase "Your Mileage May Vary..."

Jim, try the 95 TTSX again, and also try the 120 SST, and see if you notice a difference side by side. But, whatever you do, keep killing them!




Link Posted: 3/12/2012 7:21:17 AM EST


Great pics, Flint, thanks!
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 8:54:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2012 9:11:32 AM EST by OdDuMet]
Thanks HTR, good info. Pretty sure I know what you mean, but do you have a pic of your preferred shoot zone?

I'm surprised you had any penetration issues with the 110gr Accubond. That bullet has heavy construction and with the core bonded to the jacket, fragmentation should be a non-issue. I'd expect it to actually behave more like a TSX or Nosler Partition. Was it a quartering type shot?

ETA, I HAVE had a 100% drop rate experience with one combo on a lot of pigs, but it's a .300 Win Mag load which isn't fair or relevant to compare to a 6.8. I've also had 100% success, even with one gut shot, on the .458 SOCOM, but I've only shot 4 pigs with it, so it isnt enough data points to draw any valid conclusions from.
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 9:16:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2012 9:17:36 AM EST by QuicksilverJPR]
I've had to cover near 2 miles of swamp to recover a big oinker that was shot through both shoulders with a Ruger #1 in .45-70 and 425gr Beartooth. I honestly did not think a pig could get that far with two working legs, and I've never been so tired in all my life after getting him out....

Needless to say, my experience led me to start using the "in the ear/eye" shot system, which is actually relatively easy using flat shooting rifles like 5.56/6.8/6.5. I've killed more pigs in less shots using 5.56 alone with that mantra in mind. When I switched to 6.8, the numbers for shots/kill ratio got even better....
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 9:17:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2012 9:20:44 AM EST by hi-tech-rancher]
Here are the silhouette targets we made. The first pig in foreground is 100 yards form the shoot house. the second is 200, the third is 300. Notice that the 300 yard hog has a larger vital zone. this was the original, made by an unnamed MFR, and we went back to them and said "your vital zone is in the wrong place, its way too big and it covers the liver, which we don't consider a quick kill shot on a hog." We showed them hog anatomy and had them make another batch with the proper sweet spot.



Here's the shot on a real pig, made at 300 yards, at night, using the same D-740 as you have with the 95 TTSX, hand loaded in SSA brass, with AA2200 powder. DRT.



The testing I did with the 110 and 100 AB was not all bad. They are fantastic on deer. When we recovered the bullets, most of them lost about 20-30% of their weight, and there were frontal jacket separations. No matter how much we believe in the "bonded" nomenclature, I have personally seen some of these come apart but they definitely held together better than the 110 SPH.

They do expand pretty reliably, but at 6.8 velocities, they may not get all the way through the shoulder blade past 200 yards. Remedy? Don't shoot them in the shoulder blade, if at all possible.
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 9:24:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By hi-tech-rancher:
Here are the silhouette targets we made. The first pig in foreground is 100 yards form the shoot house. the second is 200, the third is 300. Notice that the 300 yard hog has a larger vital zone. this was the original, made by an unnamed MFR, and we went back to them and said "your vital zone is in the wrong place, its way too big and it covers the liver, which we don't consider a quick kill shot on a hog." We showed them hog anatomy and had them make another batch with the proper sweet spot.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dkred5854/range4.jpg?t=1331576130

Here's the shot on a real pig, made at 300 yards, at night, using the same D-740 as you have with the 95 TTSX, hand loaded in SSA brass, with AA2200 powder. DRT.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dkred5854/DSCF0010.jpg?t=1329372897

The testing I did with the 110 and 100 AB was not all bad. They are fantastic on deer. When we recovered the bullets, most of them lost about 20-30% of their weight, and there were frontal jacket separations. No matter how much we believe in the "bonded" nomenclature, I have personally seen some of these come apart but they definitely held together better than the 110 SPH.

They do expand pretty reliably, but at 6.8 velocities, they may not get all the way through the shoulder blade past 200 yards. Remedy? Don't shoot them in the shoulder blade, if at all possible.



I agree with them being great on deer. Everything I've shot (deer wise) has been DRT with the Accubonds....
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 9:35:14 AM EST
Some more 6.8 porn. I have shot animals with every bullet here, and then some more, not pictured. From left

85 TSX, 110 TTSX, 110 VMax, 110 AB, !30 SPH, 130 CT ballistic silvertip.





Here are the 80 grain all-copper GS custom and the 90 Speer TNT, for comparison:





Here's the 135 SMK, for use in bolt guns at this length only. Not a bullet I would use for pigs, though.




Link Posted: 3/12/2012 9:35:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
I've had to cover near 2 miles of swamp to recover a big oinker that was shot through both shoulders with a Ruger #1 in .45-70 and 425gr Beartooth. I honestly did not think a pig could get that far with two working legs, and I've never been so tired in all my life after getting him out....

Needless to say, my experience led me to start using the "in the ear/eye" shot system, which is actually relatively easy using flat shooting rifles like 5.56/6.8/6.5. I've killed more pigs in less shots using 5.56 alone with that mantra in mind. When I switched to 6.8, the numbers for shots/kill ratio got even better....



+1, this was consistent with my experience as well.
Link Posted: 3/12/2012 1:17:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2012 1:24:12 PM EST by 597newbie]

Originally Posted By hi-tech-rancher:
Here are the silhouette targets we made. The first pig in foreground is 100 yards form the shoot house. the second is 200, the third is 300. Notice that the 300 yard hog has a larger vital zone. this was the original, made by an unnamed MFR, and we went back to them and said "your vital zone is in the wrong place, its way too big and it covers the liver, which we don't consider a quick kill shot on a hog." We showed them hog anatomy and had them make another batch with the proper sweet spot.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s233/dkred5854/range4.jpg?t=1331576130



Off topic compliment for hi-tech-rancher.

You have built my dream gun range! I didnt think it existed anywhere on earth!

Steel hogs, oxygen cylinders and steel gongs. And then real hogs run out to mix in with the steel hogs. This photo has burned itself into my brain so I can remember forever.

I am the nut who makes life sized cardboard hogs to practice with. When i was looking for my first hunt ever we corresponded.

Looks like deer are grazing on my pig range. No deer allowed on my dream range even in deer season. Will have to shoot gong in middle to get deer off (if they are not desensitized to it). On my dream range, only hogs allowed with an exception for coyotes.

If I was independently wealthy that is the range I would build.

Link Posted: 3/12/2012 7:14:41 PM EST
I shot 3 pigs about a month ago with Nosler BT's, both in 6.5Grendel and 308. 120gr and 125 gr respectively. Both ran 20-30 yards and dropped.

Link Posted: 3/18/2012 8:10:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2012 8:36:37 AM EST by AR-15kid]
Originally Posted By OdDuMet:
On bullets, everyone has there own idea of what a bullet should do. Some want the bullet to exit. I had previously always been of the school of thought that "ideal", to me, was to penetrate enough to reach the vitals, then set a bomb off in there. I have had a 100% success rate using Nosler ballistic tips in my .300 Win Mag, even on animal bigger and tougher than pigs. These are the Hunting style ballistic tips. I'm going back to that way of thinking.

Varmint style BT. Thin jacket designed for rapid explosive expansion. Deep penetration is not a design intent of this bullet.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn127/shrockworks/Guns%20and%20Hunting/ballistic_tip_varmintsplit.jpg

Hunting style BT. Thicker tapered jacket designed for a balance of rapid expansion, decent retained weight and deeper penetration.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn127/shrockworks/Guns%20and%20Hunting/ballistic_tip_huntingsplit.jpg

The Hornady VMAX is constructed like the Nosler Varmint BT. I THINK it was designed for a .270 win though, so at the reduced 6.8 velocities it may hold together well enough to get adequate penetration. A lot of what I have read around the net would suggest it does pretty darn well. I still have a hard time trusting a bullet constructed as a varmint bullet though. No matter how you look at it, it is not ideal. You would not be using it in the role it was designed for shooting a largish pig.

Unfortunately Nosler does not have an appropriate Hunting Ballistic Tip in .277 for the 6.8 application. The lightest is a 130gr designed for .270 Win velocities of around 3000fps.

Nosler DOES make the Accubond in 100 & 110gr designed for the 6.8. The jacket construction is about identical to the hunting ballistic tip but the jacket is also bonded to the lead core to provide more weight retention and deeper penetration. I have shot one buck with a 100gr accubond and it dropped, but that's it, so I don't have much real world experience with it. It just don't know how it will behave and if it will cause the kind of massive internal damage the Hunting BT's do as they partially fragment. I suspect it will perform somewhere in-between the hole punching solid copper bullets and the Hunting BT's. It is designed to fill a role more similar to their Partition bullet. The cost is 2x what the hunting BT's cost also.

The Hornady SST seems to be Hornady's analog to Nosler's hunting ballistic tips, design intent is the same and the construction is similar. Hornady makes a 120gr SST designed for 6.8 velocities in both a bullet and in loaded ammo. I'd prefer something lighter for more velocity, flatter shooting and max destruction, but the pics and info I have found doing a lot of research indicates that even at 2500fps, the 120gr SST bullet in a 6.8 is pretty darn devastating, and the trajectory isn't that bad either.

I took a step back and admitted to myself that hog hunting at night is usually a 50-125yd affair and over 200 yds is really unlikely. The 120 SST sighted in 1" high at 100 yds will give me a +/- 1.5" trajectory from 50 yds out to 200 yds. and a max point blank range of about 225 yds (3.5" low). I can certainly live with that if the the bullet lives up to my hopes.

Chart for 120 SST, D-740 scope height 3.06", 2500 fps

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn127/shrockworks/Guns%20and%20Hunting/120grHornadySST-D740-DropChart.jpg


Nosler, if you are listening, give us a 100gr Ballistic Tip Hunting!

Edit to add, the whole time I was looking for that pig in the creek, I was 100% looking for a body. I NEVER expected it to be alive. Just goes to show you, no matter how much experience you have, or what you think you know, nature will still surprise you at times.
.

pretty good info: looking at your chart, from 25yrd-200rd your bullet tis gonna hit pretty much with in the 2" pipe using the 300 mag... biggest factor tis human arror, an ya be shooting at target that may move... i agree, would be looking for a dead hog.. smaller cal., like the .223, not sure what spec's tis.. thar be a difference in diamitor of bullet, an energy, so i try ta keep me shot's close range... figured the 55gr, hp TulAmmo would give me little more advantage with the energy department over the 55gr. fmj WPA both are cheap rounds, have had luck with the fmj just hadden had chance ta use the hp's.. u do have some good info...
my mistake chart tis 6.8 not the 300 mag..
Link Posted: 3/18/2012 8:30:00 AM EST
HTR, if I ever get myself well enough to hunt and travel, I'm headed your way. Even if I don't get a hog, I'd be in hog heaven shooting up those targets. Looks like a blast.
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