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Posted: 10/3/2017 5:27:55 PM EDT
[#1]
There are multiband wire antennas, G5RV, off center fed dipoles for a start. If you can do it get a rotatable beam antenna for as many bands as you can afford, and wire antennas for whats left.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 5:39:49 PM EDT
[#2]
If you're confined for space, or looking at a slim budget, a G5RV or OCF dipole can cover several bands and not take up huge amounts of territory.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Budget and MS Paint of your lot with rough dimensions please.
 
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Posted: 10/3/2017 6:38:44 PM EDT
[#4]
What type of transceiver you plan to start with? Internal tuner, power output, USB interface for computer digital modes, etc. Then I could better answer. You could put up a simple dipole with 20 & 40m elements & feed in the middle. A 2 leg fan dipole I guess some may say. You could then work 15m, 20m, & 40m quite easily with any rigs internal tuner. That would keep you busy a long while on HF.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 6:43:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Budget and MS Paint of your lot with rough dimensions please. The one thing I will say, based on my bad initial experiences with HF, if it can be avoided: 1) don't do a low wire antenna (dipole or otherwise.) Low = less than 1/4 WL above ground. 2) Don't do any antennas in or on a structure with a lot of metal wiring or ductwork (e.g. don't put a dipole 4' above the roof of house.) My being a fan of simple verticals is no secret here, but I think the key is to do the best you can with what you have to work with (land and budget wise.) |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 6:48:33 PM EDT
[#6]
I use an S9V43 43 foot vertical
With an SGC-230 tuner at the bottom. 
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Posted: 10/3/2017 6:52:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use an S9V43 43 foot vertical http://www.ldgelectronics.com/assets/images/products/S9/Ant4.jpg With an SGC-230 tuner at the bottom. https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamtune/2834.jpg |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 6:55:14 PM EDT
[#8]
BTW, there's a good 10 meter opening to the South right now. I'm hearing SA strong.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 7:02:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Myantennas.com 80-10 meter end fed is what I would be looking at. Hey, wait... That was my first antenna and I worked all 50 states and a crap ton of DX on it. It's a little spendy but it's a great antenna that can lay across the top of a tree or two. The feed point should be at least 10' of the ground but it makes it very easy to mount to the side of your house which also makes it easy to get your coax ran. You will still need a tuner. I still use mine for 80 and 40 meters. I use my hex beam for 20-6 meters.
Just my $0.02... |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 7:07:06 PM EDT
[#10]
OCFD and get over comms.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 7:11:26 PM EDT
[#11]
If you have room (& even better - some trees), a open wire fed full wave loop can be a really nice all band option at a really low cost. I have both 80m & a 160m FWL's fed with home brew 4" open wire "ladder line", everything made with 14 AWG THHN wire from Lowe's & some electric fence insulators from Tractor Supply. Although I have other antennas (and had various others in the past), the loops get the most use. Google "skywire" for some details...
Nick |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 8:03:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use an S9V43 43 foot vertical http://www.ldgelectronics.com/assets/images/products/S9/Ant4.jpg With an SGC-230 tuner at the bottom. https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamtune/2834.jpg I can recommend this arrangement highly to anyone that can't get their horizontal wires suitably high. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 8:34:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Most of the nets are on 75, 40, and 20 Meters. If you're space limited, 40 and 20 Meters would be your best bet. A fan dipole would work nicely.
Some wire antenna ideas: Horizontal ladder-line fed loop http://www.k5rcd.org/hor%20loop%20instruct.htm OCF (Windom) Dipole http://www.buxcomm.com/windom.htm Fan Dipole http://www.hamuniverse.com/multidipole.html Information overload on antennas, feedlines, and propagation http://www.hamuniverse.com/n4jaantennabook.html |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 8:44:18 PM EDT
[#14]
The verticals already mentioned, with a good tuner at the base, are great choices, as long as you put down sufficient radials.
Another great set of choices for an all-band antenna, if you again have a good tuner, are these dipoles. Get a good 4:1 balun from DX Engineering and a wide range tuner, something like an MFJ-993, 994 or 998, depending on the power level. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 8:58:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Suppose you were planning out your first HF rig. What antenna or antennas would you go with to start? I am free of covenants, and I have some space in my yard, but I also have small children and dogs who play there and a spouse to contend with. I am a complete newb to HF. My interest is primarily in emergency coms, but that means I need to learn how to operate on HF by making contacts, participating in nets, etc. I can probably rig up a dipole or two, in the trees, but I don't think I can do one for each band. That raises the question of which bands I should focus on. Is 20 meters the place to start? Please school me on this. I started with an 80 meter dipole, but I have large maple trees. Got WAS with it and 100 watts SSB. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 9:40:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Currently, I have the following:
- Homebrew OCFD with a Balun designs balun - Homebrew ZS6BKW (which is a modified G5RV) - Chameleon EMCOMM-II end-fed half wave in my go-bag - Comet UHV-6 on top of the Jeep An OCFD is easy to make but it needs to be up and the coax up to the feed point can get heavy. The ZS6BKW works OK, I've hit Russia, Europe, South America, and California with it. Mine's hoisted up on a Harbor Freight flagpole about 20ft. Not great but it works for what I need it to do. Just got the EMCOMM-II this past weekend and made a contact in Spain on PSK-31. If I get sent to PR or USVI, I'm taking this is it's the most compact. The UHV-6 is a great mobile antenna. Doesn't have as good a performance as something like a Tarheel screwdriver, but I can still reach about 2000mi on a good day on 40m. And, it works great for 2m and 440Mhz with my FT-857D. I'm still a newb with this stuff since I got my General just last April. Seeing some of the verticals in the posts above, I may give them another look. YL doesn't like wires all over the back yard. 
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Posted: 10/3/2017 10:02:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Any antenna is better than no antenna. Repeat that about 5 times in your head. You can prob make a antenna for next to nothing if you have access to a antenna analyzer. The 43 ft vertical is hard to beat for dx. If i could pick a antenna now I would say a Hex beam, g5rv, or a 43ft vertical. Remember the vertical needs radials.. Prob 12x 32 foot radials... My first antenna was a 18ft vertical which worked very well, with access to a analyzer you can have a antenna that is resonant and will not need any tuning..
Prosise |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 10:31:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any antenna is better than no antenna. Repeat that about 5 times in your head. You can prob make a antenna for next to nothing if you have access to a antenna analyzer. The 43 ft vertical is hard to beat for dx. If i could pick a antenna now I would say a Hex beam, g5rv, or a 43ft vertical. Remember the vertical needs radials.. Prob 12x 32 foot radials... My first antenna was a 8ft vertical which worked very well, with access to a analyzer you can have a antenna that is resonant and will not need any tuning.. Prosise |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 1:56:04 AM EDT
[#19]
It's hard to give advice without knowing all the details.
One thing I can tell you is that it's hard to beat a simple dipole antenna. It's relatively easy and cheap to build and to install, providing you have tall trees and sufficient space. Perhaps look at building a "fan" dipole that will cover 80, 40 and 20 meter bands. These are the bands you will find most activity on at this time of the current solar cycle. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 2:42:53 AM EDT
[#20]
I went with a magnetic loop. I can bring it anywhere.
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Posted: 10/4/2017 8:19:34 AM EDT
[#21]
my first antenna was 103'+/- of 14ga wire hanging about 8' off the ground connected to a LDG 4:1 Balun on one side, with the other to a ground rod and then a counterpoise laid on top of the ground.
That was what I used when I got my General and was hot to make HF contacts, and I did! |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 8:46:45 AM EDT
[#22]
We're limited on space, so I went with a G5RV and an antenna tuner.
I've been able to work every band, 80m to 10m, with no problems. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 9:29:57 AM EDT
[#23]
The old adage goes "If you have $500.00 to spend, spend $100.00 on a radio, $400.00 on your antenna!"
I am guessing that a $40.00 G5RV may not be the best choice. Plus, your budget is important. Let's start what HF equipment do you have already? Radio: Tuner: Coax: Antennas: Rough budget: $ |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 10:05:39 AM EDT
[#24]
I've moved a lot over the last few years, and while I've had space to put up some nice dipoles, I've opted for the simplicity of end fed antennas. It keeps the entire process super simple and keep the numbers of supports, wires, and marital strife to a minimum. I have used 4 or 5 of the LNR Precision End Fedz over the years and they work really well for my applications. Just my $0.02
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Posted: 10/4/2017 10:38:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The old adage goes "If you have $500.00 to spend, spend $100.00 on a radio, $400.00 on your antenna!" I am guessing that a $40.00 G5RV may not be the best choice. Plus, your budget is important. Let's start what HF equipment do you have already? Radio: Tuner: Coax: Antennas: Rough budget: $ I am planning to buy a Yaesu FT-450D as my initial HF radio. I have a FP-1023A power supply on hand to use with it. I have no HF antennas now, and I don't have a feed line either. I'd like to keep the initial antenna/feed line purchase under $200. I am planning to use the FT-450D's built in tuner initially. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 11:13:02 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will try to work on a sketch of the lot and house. I have a .5 acre lot in the city, with a three story brick house. There are two large trees behind the house that are slightly taller than the house itself. There is also a single story garage at the back of the lot about 50 yards from the house. I am going to set the rig up in my basement. I am planning to buy a Yaesu FT-450D as my initial HF radio. I have a FP-1023A power supply on hand to use with it. I have no HF antennas now, and I don't have a feed line either. I'd like to keep the initial antenna/feed line purchase under $200. I am planning to use the FT-450D's built in tuner initially. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 11:23:01 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So an $800.00 radio = $3200.00 antenna? And you want to stay under $200.00? Whoa! Make sure you set that antenna 1/2 Wavelength AGL if not higher. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 11:42:50 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's hard to give advice without knowing all the details. One thing I can tell you is that it's hard to beat a simple dipole antenna. It's relatively easy and cheap to build and to install, providing you have tall trees and sufficient space. Perhaps look at building a "fan" dipole that will cover 80, 40 and 20 meter bands. These are the bands you will find most activity on at this time of the current solar cycle. To do this, cut two 2' lengths of wire and connect the ends to form them into loops. Twist the loops in the middle to form a figure 8, then place them at the 1/4 wave points (~11' - 7") using small split bolt connectors. They can be adjusted back and forth along the wire to optimize the match. After the desired placement is achieved, the connections can be soldered and the split bolts saved for the next project. The split bolt connectors can be obtained at any electrical supply house. Might as well get a handfull of them as they'll make it a lot easier to trim the other elements because they do interact somewhat. 
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Posted: 10/4/2017 12:27:46 PM EDT
[#29]
So based on the replies so far, it seems like one of these might be a good place to start:
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-011916 What kind of coax should I use for the feed line? I will likely need something in the 50-75' range in terms of length. Should I use RG-8X? Please excuse my ignorance. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 1:18:32 PM EDT
[#30]
RG8-X will be fine for 50 - 75 ft on HF.
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Posted: 10/4/2017 2:38:30 PM EDT
[#31]
450d internal tuner will not tune a g5rv.
I suggest: http://myantennas.com/wp/product/efhw-8010p/ BTW, I have a 450d. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 3:44:25 PM EDT
[#32]
First let me comment on this:
1) don't do a low wire antenna (dipole or otherwise.) Low = less than 1/4 WL above ground. do what you can and play radio. Antennas... if you only have one band, make it a 40 m dipole. That band works most of the day and well into the evening. 75/80 m does not begin to propagate until just after sundown. 20 m, 17 m, 15 m shut down about sundown, daytime only bands. So, if only one band, make it 40 meters. An excellent antenna that would get the most bang for your buck would be a fan dipole with 40 m and 20 m elements, allowing you to also work 15 m and 17 m with your tuner. An OCFD (aka "Windom" - sic) with a 38% feedpoint, overall span of 66', will work the same bands. With a 33.3% feedpoint you can work 40, 20, 17, but not 15 m. A 3 element fan dipole, for 75, 40, 20 m will let you work 80/75, 40, 20, 17, 15 m, and possibly 10 m. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 3:50:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Not sure if you guys are aware, but the 450d internal tuner is next to useless. You have to be below 3:1, closer to 2:1 SWR for it to work.
I dipole for a specific band is great, but you'll soon get tired of your friends talking about their latest contact on -insert band you don't have- |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 6:43:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if you guys are aware, but the 450d internal tuner is next to useless. You have to be below 3:1, closer to 2:1 SWR for it to work. I dipole for a specific band is great, but you'll soon get tired of your friends talking about their latest contact on -insert band you don't have- |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 7:31:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First let me comment on this: Do not let this limit you. Get it as high as you can, but if that's only 20', so be it. If you can do 30', better. You do what you can and play radio. Antennas... if you only have one band, make it a 40 m dipole. That band works most of the day and well into the evening. 75/80 m does not begin to propagate until just after sundown. 20 m, 17 m, 15 m shut down about sundown, daytime only bands. So, if only one band, make it 40 meters. An excellent antenna that would get the most bang for your buck would be a fan dipole with 40 m and 20 m elements, allowing you to also work 15 m and 17 m with your tuner. An OCFD (aka "Windom" - sic) with a 38% feedpoint, overall span of 66', will work the same bands. With a 33.3% feedpoint you can work 40, 20, 17, but not 15 m. A 3 element fan dipole, for 75, 40, 20 m will let you work 80/75, 40, 20, 17, 15 m, and possibly 10 m. vertical is going to be the better antenna, mostly due to a more favorable radiation angle (it's at a disadvantage in gain but makes up for it by sending the signal where someone will hear it.) That was the reasoning being my "don't do low wires." If it's the only option, have at it! |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 7:38:48 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am trying to get into HF on a reasonable budget. HRO has the FT-450D for $679. That seems to be about the entry-level cost for a modern HF transceiver. I can expand my antenna setup later as funds allow. The highest I can reasonably get the antenna is about 40'. As for your radio choice, I'd honestly get something else. 857 or 897 and a separate LDG or other tuner that will match 1:10 SWR loads. With a narrow tuning range like 1:3 or 1:2 on the Yaesu internal tuner you probably will have trouble using any multiband antenna (which realistically is most of em). |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 7:56:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A height of 40' isn't that high but its not terrible either. Figure you want 33' for 20 meters (1/2 WL), and ideally 66' (1/2 WL) for 40m. That being said my multiband G5RVjr is only about 35' high, so daytime use on 20m and higher is fine, and 40m isn't that great, but I certainly have made contacts on it. You may also consider a vertical (no go for me otherwise I'd do that). As for your radio choice, I'd honestly get something else. 857 or 897 and a separate LDG or other tuner that will match 1:10 SWR loads. With a narrow tuning range like 1:3 or 1:2 on the Yaesu internal tuner you probably will have trouble using any multiband antenna (which realistically is most of em). |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 8:36:28 PM EDT
[#38]
I love my 450d, but any of the lower price range hf rigs internal tuners arn't that hot.
Either go with a ladder dipole that is resonant on multiple freqs, or look at the end fed I suggested. They really work. Keep an eye on qrz, I got one that is a month old for 500$. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 8:49:12 PM EDT
[#39]
If you have trees and need to hide it the standard G5RV really is a decent antenna if you just want to get on the air.
I started with one and a FT-840 and an older MFJ manual tuner...$600 total. But then I found digi modes, and while I could do them via an easy-digi interface on the 840, the filtering was making life tough. I upgraded to an IC-7200 and loved it for years. I would get a radio with a real soundcard interface unless you are vehemently anti-PC. Careful with the smaller auto-tuners, as they have power limitations for the digital modes. I have had 3 different homebrewed antennas in the yard since then and am currently running the same ole G5RV dropped a bit for NVIS and a big G5RV-MAX-E for primary. Still no antennas on the tower  maybe when it gets colder and the leaves are all gone I'll put the beam up.
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Posted: 10/5/2017 2:07:48 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So do you advise against the 450D? It looks like a nice package, but I have no experience with HF gear. I have been pleased with my Yaesu VHF/UHF radios. A good, resonant antenna is your best bet to success. I would advise not to use an antenna if SWR is greater than 3:1. A G5RV is a compromise. If installed correctly, your FT450 should match it on most bands but don't expect any miracles. It's still a better choice than a small shortened vertical or a mag-loop. Another thing to remember when choosing antennas. Size does matter. Stay away from the "miracle" antennas like - Buddy-stick or Alpha Military vertical. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 5:21:51 AM EDT
[#41]
My favorite general purpose All-Band DX antenna is the non-resonant Inverted-L. It has low angle radiation on all bands, which is what we want for DX work. The 45 ft version 23 ft tall x 22 ft wide is good for 80 M through 6 M, while the 90 ft version 45 ft tall x 45 ft wide is for 160 M through 10 M.
On the lowest bands, gain and polarization are that of a vertical, while on the higher bands, polarization of the useful low angle radiation is horizontal and gain is nearly that of a dipole at the same height. "End/Base-Fed Inverted-L, 45 ft version, Elevation and Azimuth Radiation Plots" ===> http://vtenn.com/Blog/?p=110 
If interested, there are other articles in my blog about details of unun, coax feed, radials, etc... |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 8:08:29 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My favorite general purpose All-Band DX antenna is the non-resonant Inverted-L. It has low angle radiation on all bands, which is what we want for DX work. The 45 ft version 23 ft tall x 22 ft wide is good for 80 M through 6 M, while the 90 ft version 45 ft tall x 45 ft wide is for 160 M through 10 M. On the lowest bands, gain and polarization are that of a vertical, while on the higher bands, polarization of the useful low angle radiation is horizontal and gain is nearly that of a dipole at the same height. "End/Base-Fed Inverted-L, 45 ft version, Elevation and Azimuth Radiation Plots" ===> http://vtenn.com/Blog/?p=110 http://vtenn.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/FIGURE-6-Gain-and-TOA-45-foot-Inverted-L.jpg If interested, there are other articles in my blog about details of unun, coax feed, radials, etc... Prosise |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 8:45:06 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMHO, FT450 is the best radio in that price category. Don't get into the thinking that as long as a tuner can tune an antenna, you are good to go. It will match the impedance but it won't make a cappy antenna perform better. A good, resonant antenna is your best bet to success. I would advise not to use an antenna if SWR is greater than 3:1. A G5RV is a compromise. If installed correctly, your FT450 should match it on most bands but don't expect any miracles. It's still a better choice than a small shortened vertical or a mag-loop. Another thing to remember when choosing antennas. Size does matter. Stay away from the "miracle" antennas like - Buddy-stick or Alpha Military vertical. From the 450D manual: The ATU in the FT-450D is designed to match impedances within the range of 16.7 ohms to 150 ohms, corresponding to an swr of 3:1 or less on 160 through 6 meter amateur bands. Accordingly, simple non-resonant whip antennas, along with random-length wires and the "G5RV" antenna (on most bands) may not be within the impedance matching range of the ATU" I think you'll find this with most of the HF rigs with internal tuners in that price range. With the above in mind, most of the antenna's that people are suggesting in the thread MAY not work on all bands. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 5:35:44 PM EDT
[#44]
I would build an OCFD with a 4 to 1 balun with 45 ft. of wire on one end and 90 ft. of wire on the other end , or put up a 80 meter horizontal loop.
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Posted: 10/5/2017 10:18:32 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Darn good info. Invertel L is a cheap way to cover many bands.. Might have to do this as a way to get on 80m.. Much appreciated Prosise Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My favorite general purpose All-Band DX antenna is the non-resonant Inverted-L. It has low angle radiation on all bands, which is what we want for DX work. The 45 ft version 23 ft tall x 22 ft wide is good for 80 M through 6 M, while the 90 ft version 45 ft tall x 45 ft wide is for 160 M through 10 M. On the lowest bands, gain and polarization are that of a vertical, while on the higher bands, polarization of the useful low angle radiation is horizontal and gain is nearly that of a dipole at the same height. "End/Base-Fed Inverted-L, 45 ft version, Elevation and Azimuth Radiation Plots" ===> http://vtenn.com/Blog/?p=110 http://vtenn.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/FIGURE-6-Gain-and-TOA-45-foot-Inverted-L.jpg If interested, there are other articles in my blog about details of unun, coax feed, radials, etc... Prosise 160M will be the band to have this winter given that we are in the bottom of the solar cycle and all that. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 11:50:35 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 10/6/2017 6:53:23 AM EDT
[#47]
160 is busy in the Northeast all year long, and rocks in the winter. There's DX, too, but that's tough unless you have a nice Beverage antenna array on receive.
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Posted: 10/6/2017 11:40:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
160M will be the band to have this winter given that we are in the bottom of the solar cycle and all that.
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Posted: 10/7/2017 12:32:32 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't have enough real estate for 160 m. 
I think there's a couple places that sell external loading coils to make short verticals work on 160. |
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Posted: 10/7/2017 4:18:22 AM EDT
[#50]
I got my 1st taste of 160m last month when I found out I can tune up the 80m doublet on 160. The KAT500 can get it to 1:3:1 to 1:5:1 depending on freq. I worked 28 states so far on FT8. I've heard several DX stations, but I don't get out well enough. Been eyeballing a spot to put up an inverted L soon. I want to finish WAS & be ready for some winter time play on the band. So far it has been a lot of fun.
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