User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/2/2017 9:29:32 PM EDT
I currently have two sources of water:
A 15 ft hand-dug well open cased with ~40" concrete casing. Water safe to drink (per water test), but it's hard. A 20,000 gallon rain water cistern that collects water from my two 30x50 buildings. Eventually there will be a 16x50 awning in between for more collection, and then a house. Inside of my pump house I have the well and two water pump/pressure system circuits. I can run separately or supply both domestic and irrigation circuits from either source. I have two goals: 1. Install some kind of controller that will shut off the pump until there is operator input if the pump runs longer than 10 minutes. This is to protect my cistern from being drained in the event that there is a leak. 2. Install some kind of controller that shuts the pumps off if they suck air. Anyone have experience with these two goals? P.S. Ignore the temporary wiring. I ended up having to move my pressure switch and I have to solder an extension but I ran out of time this weekend.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/2/2017 9:43:40 PM EDT
[#1]
How is your electrical knowledge?
There are many things that could be built. For item 1 you could use a time delay relay to shutoff the pump after whatever time you set it to, and you could have a bypass switch if you want it to run longer than that set point. Item #2, the only thing I can think of that is not expensive would be to hang a float ball inside the tank. When the tank level gets down to a couple inches the float could kill the pump. With either one of these options you will need to control the pump with a suitable rated relay, because the time delay nor the float ball will have contacts heavy duty enough to directly switch the pump power. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/3/2017 1:51:11 PM EDT
[#2]
I was hoping for something that is already built that would allow power for X minutes and then trip out until reset by an operator.
For the lost-prime protection, I know those things exist. One of my neighbors has one on his well so his pump will stop for X minutes when it loses prime so it can refill. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/3/2017 2:17:58 PM EDT
[#3]
I know there are systems for this sort of thing. Ask over in the Survival Forum, there are some guys running them in low water areas.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/3/2017 2:28:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
1. Install some kind of controller that will shut off the pump until there is operator input if the pump runs longer than 10 minutes. This is to protect my cistern from being drained in the event that there is a leak. So, your timer would need to be configured so that it doesn't reset immediately after the pump shuts off. 2. Install some kind of controller that shuts the pumps off if they suck air. Basically, it monitors the current being drawn by the pump. Abnormally low current usually means that the pump is sucking air. Abnormally high current usually means that the pump is clogged or sandlocked. ETA: Most models also have user-adjustable under- and overvoltage shutoffs - particularly good to have when powering the pump with a generator. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/3/2017 6:58:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is your electrical knowledge? There are many things that could be built. For item 1 you could use a time delay relay to shutoff the pump after whatever time you set it to, and you could have a bypass switch if you want it to run longer than that set point. Item #2, the only thing I can think of that is not expensive would be to hang a float ball inside the tank. When the tank level gets down to a couple inches the float could kill the pump. With either one of these options you will need to control the pump with a suitable rated relay, because the time delay nor the float ball will have contacts heavy duty enough to directly switch the pump power. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/3/2017 7:12:11 PM EDT
[#6]
Just set up a float type shut off that shuts off the pump once the water level drops to a certain point.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 11:10:46 AM EDT
[#7]
For #2 you're looking for a "pump protector". They are generally for well-pumps where the well may run dry, but they can be used for just about anything. There are multiple makers and most new ones are in the $100-200 price-range. You can likely go cheaper if you want to tinker with used stuff from ebay. There is an older make/version (can't place the name right now) that can be had for under $50 from ebay but it requires a toroid coil and it isn't a "plug & play" sort of option.
ETA, as previous posts said, these monitor motor current. High-current equals locked rotor, low current equals no (or very little) fluid is being pumped. The more plug & play options have built-in "learning" of your pumps characteristics. The cheaper options have to be manually programmed with several parameters. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 1:31:23 PM EDT
[#8]
If it were me, I'd take a slightly different approach.
1) pipe break protection: flow meter/switch. Experiment with full expected flow, and then with a "broken" pipe. Set it to alarm and/or trip at appropriate flow rates. 2) level gauges for well and cistern. Maybe 2 - one warning, one shutoff. I'm not sure that current sensing would be the best control input. Depending on the water source and it's level, one could have wildly different suction head values, so I could see it being difficult to tune. I also have a question - are these your main sources of domestic water? If not, I would simply pump the well water into the cistern, using a high level switch to prevent overfill. If so, I'd use the well for domestic water and the cistern for irrigation, with a crossover for emergency use. Put a water softener after the crossover. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2017 9:59:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Good points, but I don't want to have a water softener if I can avoid it.
I'll bet the pump current is much lower when the pump has no water move, regardless of the head pressure on the inlet side of the pump. The load of the pump is probably very proportional to the amount of water it is moving and the outlet pressure. I'll look into the current switch my neighbor has. Home Depot sells some low pressure pump switches that detect a burst, but they didn't get good ratings. They were $2 more than the normal 30/50 pressure switch. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 8:24:04 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure that current sensing would be the best control input. Depending on the water source and it's level, one could have wildly different suction head values, so I could see it being difficult to tune. To put it in perspective, given the same level in a cistern, a pump normal operating pressure can vary from very low pressures all the way up to 100+ psi. That would be normal operation. The pressure difference at the water source varies by 1 psi per 2.3 feet change in water level. If we're talking about a cistern, it's not likely more than 10 feet from empty to full, so just over 4 psi difference. 4 psi difference will not vary the pump current more than a few milliamps. As a matter of fact, the ONLY time I could see the pressure difference being enough to even cause issues would be a deep well in a karst region where water levels can swing hundreds of feet wet-season to dry-season. Yet that's the primary market for the current-sensing pump protectors; I have a feeling they will work just fine. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 9:07:02 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Water level fluctuations don't change psi that much. To put it in perspective, given the same level in a cistern, a pump normal operating pressure can vary from very low pressures all the way up to 100+ psi. That would be normal operation. The pressure difference at the water source varies by 1 psi per 2.3 feet change in water level. If we're talking about a cistern, it's not likely more than 10 feet from empty to full, so just over 4 psi difference. 4 psi difference will not vary the pump current more than a few milliamps. As a matter of fact, the ONLY time I could see the pressure difference being enough to even cause issues would be a deep well in a karst region where water levels can swing hundreds of feet wet-season to dry-season. Yet that's the primary market for the current-sensing pump protectors; I have a feeling they will work just fine. But my comment was more about philosophy. Using a single sensor type to protect tank level and suction protection and pipe break protection sort of bothers me. In principle, sensors should measure the property one is trying to control. The op's original concerns were against the possibility of drawing the cistern too low. So my first thought is "measure tank level." Current sensors are a secondary measurement. And they tell you when the pump is sucking air - in my mind that would be too late. I'm not saying current sensors won't work. But it's not the way I, personally, would go if the OP's system were mine. Just different philosophy. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 9:36:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Tag for when I get home.
I help design, build, and install pumping systems and have some suggestions for you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 11:35:21 AM EDT
[#13]
I've seen refrigeration compressor controls that have that capability but they are total control type systems and are quite pricey. Search Emerson controls and maybe they have something that might work.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 1:17:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Eno Scientific makes several water well level measuring products.
They can be configured to sound an alarm when your water level drops below some user-programmed value, but apparently aren't capable of automatically shutting off your pump. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 2:35:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eno Scientific make several water well level measuring products. They can be configured to sound an alarm when your water level drops below some user-programmed value, but apparently aren't capable of automatically shutting off your pump. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 6:30:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If OP wanted to get in the weeds, he could get an Arduino and load in some ladder logic. Inputs from tank and well levels, flowmeters, etc. Output to control valves and the pump controller. Automatic changeovers from cistern to well based on level, multi-level alarms, and a timer function of course. My number one concern is pump run time. There is no reason why the pump coming from the cistern should run longer than a shower takes. Anything longer than that and I want it shut off until I turn it back on. If I wanted to be super safe, that circuit would toggle a solenoid valve to block water flow even to the pump so that the head pressure wouldn't let the cistern bleed out. Bottom line is that with rain water being my primary source, a leak or a faucet left on will make for a bad day. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 7:27:53 PM EDT
[#17]
So do you want to use a delay on break timer or a level sensor?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 9:21:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP has an MSEE My number one concern is pump run time. Example |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 9:50:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good points, but I don't want to have a water softener if I can avoid it. I'll bet the pump current is much lower when the pump has no water move, regardless of the head pressure on the inlet side of the pump. The load of the pump is probably very proportional to the amount of water it is moving and the outlet pressure. I'll look into the current switch my neighbor has. Home Depot sells some low pressure pump switches that detect a burst, but they didn't get good ratings. They were $2 more than the normal 30/50 pressure switch. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 10:10:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Square D??? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2017 10:34:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everbilt was the only thing they had in stock. Looks like Square D gets 5 stars. Maybe I should get that for the leak detection. Still need a timer. Very surprised no one makes one....at least that I can find. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Square D??? Good luck. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/6/2017 9:13:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is also the well, which is substantially deeper. And saying "4 psi difference will not vary the pump current more than a few milliamps" really depends on the pump curve. And it's not just the suction side - discharge pressures will vary a lot as well. But my comment was more about philosophy. Using a single sensor type to protect tank level and suction protection and pipe break protection sort of bothers me. In principle, sensors should measure the property one is trying to control. The op's original concerns were against the possibility of drawing the cistern too low. So my first thought is "measure tank level." Current sensors are a secondary measurement. And they tell you when the pump is sucking air - in my mind that would be too late. I'm not saying current sensors won't work. But it's not the way I, personally, would go if the OP's system were mine. Just different philosophy. Water level sensors won't do anything to protect from other low-current causes, nor will they help with his #1 request. By the time he gets a water level sensor, gets the programming/relays setup to control for condition #2, it would be more economical for him to just buy a pump protector which gives the added benefit of actually protecting the pump from most "outside of normal" operating conditions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2017 12:15:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know what you need~ 30/50 or 60/40 switch etc. They're both adjustable. IIRC, the points on the Square D open at around 20PSI to kill the power. If your pump can't keep pressure above that, for instance, high demand garden hose use, it may not help you. Good luck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Square D??? Good luck. Just wanted to clarify/edit what I mentioned above after a little reading this morning... The Square D switch opens the points ( requiring a reset ) at around 10PSI below the cut-in pressure. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2017 12:49:17 PM EDT
[#24]
The contacts on most of those Square D switches are only rated for 1 HP - They won't last too long with a 5 HP pump.
I ended up using the contacts to power the 230VAC coil on a 40 amp HVAC contactor relay - which is what actually interrupts power to the pump. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2017 1:04:19 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The contacts on most of those Square D switches are only rated for 1 HP - They won't last too long with a 5 HP pump.
I ended up using the contacts to power the 230VAC coil on a 40 amp HVAC contactor relay - which is what actually interrupts power to the pump. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2017 3:12:10 PM EDT
[#26]
OP- While this is not exactly what you want, it resembles it, and if you are handy, you might be able to use a few relays to get where you want.
Outlet Timer Eh, on second thought, that won't work, either. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2017 3:00:32 PM EDT
[#27]
I am going to buy the Square D switch. I forgot about it when I ordered something else online from HD a week ago.
When I first plumbed this system in I had a leak where a galvanized nipple goes into a PVC 90 with threads on one side. I tightened it another rotation out of laziness and after a few weeks it cracked. I went out one night to check on how much water I'd used and found the leak. Thankfully it was between the pump and the check valve. When the pump was on it would shoot across the pump house. When the pump was off the head pressure from the cistern would cause a 6" long thin stream of water. I plumbed it correctly, but now I check the pump house every day.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2017 4:38:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am going to buy the Square D switch. I forgot about it when I ordered something else online from HD a week ago. When I first plumbed this system in I had a leak where a galvanized nipple goes into a PVC 90 with threads on one side. I tightened it another rotation out of laziness and after a few weeks it cracked. I went out one night to check on how much water I'd used and found the leak. Thankfully it was between the pump and the check valve. When the pump was on it would shoot across the pump house. When the pump was off the head pressure from the cistern would cause a 6" long thin stream of water. I plumbed it correctly, but now I check the pump house every day. Set it up so any motion around the pump or plumbing (i.e., a water leak) would trigger the camera's alarm to send you an email or text message. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2017 10:26:44 PM EDT
[#29]
I'd put some effort into covering that well better to keep the dead mice and bugs out.
....only because no one else has said anything.. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/16/2017 11:41:46 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd put some effort into covering that well better to keep the dead mice and bugs out. ....only because no one else has said anything.. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
