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Posted: 9/22/2017 1:19:20 PM EDT
I have lived overseas for about a year and will be returning to our homestead in the US for a few days next month. I would like to use my time back on the homestead to plant fruit trees and possibly some perennial vegetable plots (asparagus sunflowers, collards, anything that will seed and re-sprout year over year). Most important are the fruit trees, I plan on planting bare root trees, mulching appropriately and fencing off each tree or fencing in an orchard to avoid massive damage by the deer. The goal is to get some items a head start before we move back and start building our home.
What suggests do you have for planting and ABANDONING the trees. I would like to go ahead and order the tree saplings soon so they will be there when I arrive. If I have a 10% success rate it would be worth it for me. Is it worth it? What other varieties of trees, plants, vegetables, flowers would you plant? background: My wife and I moved onto a 11 acre homestead back in early 2016. We plan to build our dream home in a few years and have lived in a 38ft fifth wheel on our property for 10 months before moving overseas with work (Jan 1 2017). All but 3 acres are heavily wooded with hardwood trees with a moderate sized navigable creek leading out to a large river running the entire length 900ft of the property. We are both in our late 20s and I have a great job with .gov to return to when we move back. I have family and friends locally that mow and check on our property. Our property is very secluded and I am not worried about theft etc. We have been gone for nearly a year without any issues with the property thus far. Thanks Blackdogfarms |
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[#1]
Use seeds from old trees for old proven apples for your area maybe.
Hang a gallon jug 1/4 full of vinegar with sugar added from the crotch of the tree to attract the bugs that would go for the apples otherwise. That was the only pesticide my grandmother ever used. She had a couple trees of crab apples a little bigger than the golf ball size too. Made great apple pickles. The vinegar and fruit was great in the winter for vitamin C content. I should see if I could get some from the old farm and start propagating them around the county at fence lines along the road etc. |
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[#2]
It all depends on where your property is located.
Trees and plants that may grow well in Virginia may not be good in Florida, etc. |
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[#3]
Quoted:
It all depends on where your property is located. Trees and plants that may grow well in Virginia may not be good in Florida, etc. View Quote I can probably get the seeds from my neighbors trees as well. For those of you that have purchased saplings bare root trees where did you order them from? I can order from stark brothers but they are exspensive. Also thought about cold steam farms as well. Any recommendations? |
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[#4]
I got my 5 trees from Stark Brothers. 2 peach, 2 apple, 1 crab apple. I don't think now is a good time to plant bare root trees. They dont ship them until the proper planting time. Usually in the spring as tress start to break dormancy. I believe fall might be a 2nd option.
Mine were around 4-5 foot tall. I went with semi dwarf apple trees, and standard size peach. |
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[#5]
To protect fruit trees from browsing while they grow (and from sun-scald, and other problems) get some "tree-tubes". They are semi-opaque tubes you place over the saplings that stand 5+ feet tall. In the early years the tree is entirely inside the tube and it's "striving" for the open light at the top. This encourages them to grow taller before branching out and keeps the lower parts protected from browsing etc. There is a place I drive past that did this several years ago and the trees are now starting to poke out the tops of the tubes.
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[#6]
Tried the same thing.
All died w/o water. Unless you have someone to take care of them walk away gardening doesn't work |
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[#7]
Quoted:
Tried the same thing. All died w/o water. Unless you have someone to take care of them walk away gardening doesn't work View Quote At $25-35 each i am beginning to think i should do about 3 and see how it goes the first year. Then go from there. I have my whole life ahead of me to watch them grow I suppose. The hard part is I yearn to improve the property everyday, each day I am away is one day I miss there. I am getting to see lots of cool places while away though. |
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[#8]
The right berries will take off without care. Plant a number of varieties.
Elderberries are fun, and I prune mine up into tree shapes that provide shade. 2 or more, usually, for cross-pollination. Raspberries, blackberries, blueberries, goji berries, etc. Guessing that water isn't an issue. That is, this is an area where you can walk away without an irrigation setup, and what comes out of the sky is enough for things to grow. |
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[#9]
Can't help with the fruit trees.
But I live in eastern NC as well, and I ordered tree seedlings from the NC forestry service. NC Forestry Service Seedling Store We've got 100 Red Maple, 100 Pin Oak, and 100 Persimmon seedlings coming in December. We've got 31 acres of mostly pine that I'm going to try to convert to more deciduous. I am building a small cabin out there so we can start spending weekends. |
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[#10]
Any option for a solar or wind powered pump from the creek to the orchard for scheduled watering?
Or pump to an elevated holding tank that gravity drip waters the trees... |
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[#11]
Pawpaws. Native fruit.
Heirloom apples. Look up "permaculture". |
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[#12]
Quoted:
Any option for a solar or wind powered pump from the creek to the orchard for scheduled watering? Or pump to an elevated holding tank that gravity drip waters the trees... View Quote If you need water while you're away, look into stealth MJ grow ops. Apparently they have various kinds of low-rent guerrilla irrigation techniques. |
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[#13]
Quoted:
I have lived overseas for about a year and will be returning to our homestead in the US for a few days next month. I would like to use my time back on the homestead to plant fruit trees and possibly some perennial vegetable plots (asparagus sunflowers, collards, anything that will seed and re-sprout year over year). Most important are the fruit trees, I plan on planting bare root trees, mulching appropriately and fencing off each tree or fencing in an orchard to avoid massive damage by the deer. The goal is to get some items a head start before we move back and start building our home. What suggests do you have for planting and ABANDONING the trees. I would like to go ahead and order the tree saplings soon so they will be there when I arrive. If I have a 10% success rate it would be worth it for me. Is it worth it? What other varieties of trees, plants, vegetables, flowers would you plant? background: My wife and I moved onto a 11 acre homestead back in early 2016. We plan to build our dream home in a few years and have lived in a 38ft fifth wheel on our property for 10 months before moving overseas with work (Jan 1 2017). All but 3 acres are heavily wooded with hardwood trees with a moderate sized navigable creek leading out to a large river running the entire length 900ft of the property. We are both in our late 20s and I have a great job with .gov to return to when we move back. I have family and friends locally that mow and check on our property. Our property is very secluded and I am not worried about theft etc. We have been gone for nearly a year without any issues with the property thus far. Thanks Blackdogfarms View Quote I don't know for sure what you want on the property, but (and I know I sound like a broken record with this) Black walnut, shagbark hickory, American mulberry, and other native nut trees--even pawpaw (though I don't know if that grows where you are) are all excellent things to plant, if they are not already growing on your land. It takes a long time, but is a gift for you in your later years, and for future generations if you plan on having kids. I am not as concerned about watering if you grow native species. Old fashioned apples are not big and fat and red, but they are great for canning and pies, and they survive where a hybrid will not. Here, peaches and pears are more difficult because they are generally "fussier" plants, and the older native varieties don't produce the kind of fruit we've become accustomed to. A few native muscadine grape vines might do well for you too (this is always going to be a sweet grape, and not the kind of wine grape you would find in serious wine producing regions) as it is hardy and tough, and by the time you move back in a year, it'll be of a size you might need to begin pruning, but then you're here, right? Quince is not a fruit many people pay attention to anymore, but it's worthwhile for canning and pies, jellies and jams. It's also a bush with giant thorns, so it's a survivor. My advice would be to spend your efforts and money getting native species established if you don't already have those. Spend a little research time with "Fruit and nut trees native to ____(insert your region)" then figure out what you already have, and plant what you don't. For instance, if you don't have black walnut, but you know you want it and it will grow there, go pick up a bucket of the walnuts that are falling right now. Bury a few around your place (not where you want your main yard or other garden). I guarantee a better than 10 percent survival rate. And it's free. Same for shagbark hickory. Same for pawpaw, though you may be too late for that. Animals grab the fruit. Native wild blackberries, raspberries, etc...those will survive. But YOU have to be willing to put up with the thorns that will keep them alive. (Native wild berries taste SO MUCH BETTER than the hybridized, thornless types, fyi) I would save the "soft and yummy" fruits for when you get home. Dwarf varieties of apple will be producing for you within three years. And those won't survive abandonment. Don't put your money into that kind of fruit tree. Go native, or wait until you're here. YMMV |
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[#14]
Quoted:
I don't know for sure what you want on the property, but (and I know I sound like a broken record with this) Black walnut, shagbark hickory, American mulberry, and other native nut trees--even pawpaw (though I don't know if that grows where you are) are all excellent things to plant, if they are not already growing on your land. It takes a long time, but is a gift for you in your later years, and for future generations if you plan on having kids. I am not as concerned about watering if you grow native species. Old fashioned apples are not big and fat and red, but they are great for canning and pies, and they survive where a hybrid will not. Here, peaches and pears are more difficult because they are generally "fussier" plants, and the older native varieties don't produce the kind of fruit we've become accustomed to. A few native muscadine grape vines might do well for you too (this is always going to be a sweet grape, and not the kind of wine grape you would find in serious wine producing regions) as it is hardy and tough, and by the time you move back in a year, it'll be of a size you might need to begin pruning, but then you're here, right? Quince is not a fruit many people pay attention to anymore, but it's worthwhile for canning and pies, jellies and jams. It's also a bush with giant thorns, so it's a survivor. My advice would be to spend your efforts and money getting native species established if you don't already have those. Spend a little research time with "Fruit and nut trees native to ____(insert your region)" then figure out what you already have, and plant what you don't. For instance, if you don't have black walnut, but you know you want it and it will grow there, go pick up a bucket of the walnuts that are falling right now. Bury a few around your place (not where you want your main yard or other garden). I guarantee a better than 10 percent survival rate. And it's free. Same for shagbark hickory. Same for pawpaw, though you may be too late for that. Animals grab the fruit. Native wild blackberries, raspberries, etc...those will survive. But YOU have to be willing to put up with the thorns that will keep them alive. (Native wild berries taste SO MUCH BETTER than the hybridized, thornless types, fyi) I would save the "soft and yummy" fruits for when you get home. Dwarf varieties of apple will be producing for you within three years. And those won't survive abandonment. Don't put your money into that kind of fruit tree. Go native, or wait until you're here. YMMV View Quote |
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[#15]
Quoted:
There can be exceptions to the pear and apple thing. Some of the older varieties of pear do fine if abandoned - there's one tree hear my place that must be at least 50 years old. As for apples, if you can find an abandoned apple orchard, the ones that are still alive are the ones that will survive. Take some cuttings, prepare, and get them rooted and stick them in the ground. You can plant LOTS of apple trees that way - the survival rate may be comparatively low, but one can plant a LOT of cuttings. View Quote Even the older pears don't do great here without some pampering. Y'all are a little milder overall, from what I know of my best friend in Potomac. You might not be in that area, though. |
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[#16]
Quoted:
I don't know for sure what you want on the property, but (and I know I sound like a broken record with this) Black walnut, shagbark hickory, American mulberry, and other native nut trees--even pawpaw (though I don't know if that grows where you are) are all excellent things to plant, if they are not already growing on your land. It takes a long time, but is a gift for you in your later years, and for future generations if you plan on having kids. I am not as concerned about watering if you grow native species. Old fashioned apples are not big and fat and red, but they are great for canning and pies, and they survive where a hybrid will not. Here, peaches and pears are more difficult because they are generally "fussier" plants, and the older native varieties don't produce the kind of fruit we've become accustomed to. A few native muscadine grape vines might do well for you too (this is always going to be a sweet grape, and not the kind of wine grape you would find in serious wine producing regions) as it is hardy and tough, and by the time you move back in a year, it'll be of a size you might need to begin pruning, but then you're here, right? Quince is not a fruit many people pay attention to anymore, but it's worthwhile for canning and pies, jellies and jams. It's also a bush with giant thorns, so it's a survivor. My advice would be to spend your efforts and money getting native species established if you don't already have those. Spend a little research time with "Fruit and nut trees native to ____(insert your region)" then figure out what you already have, and plant what you don't. For instance, if you don't have black walnut, but you know you want it and it will grow there, go pick up a bucket of the walnuts that are falling right now. Bury a few around your place (not where you want your main yard or other garden). I guarantee a better than 10 percent survival rate. And it's free. Same for shagbark hickory. Same for pawpaw, though you may be too late for that. Animals grab the fruit. Native wild blackberries, raspberries, etc...those will survive. But YOU have to be willing to put up with the thorns that will keep them alive. (Native wild berries taste SO MUCH BETTER than the hybridized, thornless types, fyi) I would save the "soft and yummy" fruits for when you get home. Dwarf varieties of apple will be producing for you within three years. And those won't survive abandonment. Don't put your money into that kind of fruit tree. Go native, or wait until you're here. YMMV View Quote I planted several blueberry and black berry bushes before we left and I look forward to seeing how they are doing. I will try and plant a few more while i am home. The more i read peoples opinions/experience every one states to wait on the fruit trees like you stat until we get home. It will be money well spent at that point, that way i can do it right and have a better idea of where I would like to place them in regards to the home. Hardiness zone 8a Thank you. |
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[#17]
Quoted:
There can be exceptions to the pear and apple thing. Some of the older varieties of pear do fine if abandoned - there's one tree hear my place that must be at least 50 years old. As for apples, if you can find an abandoned apple orchard, the ones that are still alive are the ones that will survive. Take some cuttings, prepare, and get them rooted and stick them in the ground. You can plant LOTS of apple trees that way - the survival rate may be comparatively low, but one can plant a LOT of cuttings. View Quote ' |
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[#18]
Quoted:
Good points on the older apples. However I like the old "from seed"varieties too. Grow on their own rootstock. What my grandmother used to call "little white apples." You don't see many around, and I'd have to do some looking to find one. Used to be one down the road, but they bulldozed it. Even the older pears don't do great here without some pampering. Y'all are a little milder overall, from what I know of my best friend in Potomac. You might not be in that area, though. View Quote All varieties of apple are vegetatively propogated. That can be via graft to a rootstock, or own root. Own root will likely not produce as well or be as vigorous/hardy, but they can still provide graft wood if you start spending more time there in the future. I actually live quite near Potomac. But I'm thinking in terms of surviving neglect, NOT being productive/thriving. Up near my parent's cabin in Northeast PA there are a few old apple orchards that haven't seen a lick of maintenance for 50-75 years. The trees have lots of problems, and the fruit is small and sparse. But there *is* fruit; the trees *are* alive. That's a big difference from some other fruit trees, say peaches. Most of them just up and die if they are not tended. But those 50+ year old apple trees, if pruned properly and mulched up to the dripline, could probably start producing well in a couple of seasons. ETA: Forgot to suggest black cherry (native). Also, Go Native Tree Farms in PA and Edible Landscaping in SW VA might be good sources for info. And I believe there are a couple of native tree nurseries/edible landscaping nurseries in your (future) AO. |
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[#19]
Quoted:
I haven't determine the legalities yet but I am starting to germinate fruit seeds from seed here in Italy as we speak. Not sure if I can "legally" bring home yet but if nothing else i can practice germination and propagation while I am here. I get my fruit weekly at the local farmers market and it is just divine. ' View Quote Good on you for exerimenting! Be aware that most of the fruit you are eating is from hybrid varieties, which will not grow true from seed. You will need to learn vegetative propagation. Be sure to try cuttings (as one poster above mentioned.) You can almost certainly get the variety you want here in the states, if you can figure out exactly what you're eating, which will mean finding the grower and asking him/her. |
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[#20]
Quoted:
There are no "from seed" apple trees. They don't reproduce true to the parent - the seeds are a roll of the genetic dice. I think crabapples might be an exception - possibly the "little white apples" of your memory? All varieties of apple are vegetatively propogated. That can be via graft to a rootstock, or own root. Own root will likely not produce as well or be as vigorous/hardy, but they can still provide graft wood if you start spending more time there in the future. I actually live quite near Potomac. But I'm thinking in terms of surviving neglect, NOT being productive/thriving. Up near my parent's cabin in Northeast PA there are a few old apple orchards that haven't seen a lick of maintenance for 50-75 years. The trees have lots of problems, and the fruit is small and sparse. But there *is* fruit; the trees *are* alive. That's a big difference from some other fruit trees, say peaches. Most of them just up and die if they are not tended. But those 50+ year old apple trees, if pruned properly and mulched up to the dripline, could probably start producing well in a couple of seasons. ETA: Forgot to suggest black cherry (native). Also, Go Native Tree Farms in PA and Edible Landscaping in SW VA might be good sources for info. And I believe there are a couple of native tree nurseries/edible landscaping nurseries in your (future) AO. View Quote You are thinking like a product of the past 100 years (which, of course, you are.) If there were no apples from seed, we would not have apples. NO, the apples I speak of (little white apples) were not crabapples. Do apples from seed morph? Yes. As do any sexually produced plants. Can they still be a viable food source? Absolutely. I should add, for clarity, so you don't think I'm an idiot... Of course they don't produce true. But they DO PRODUCE. And if someone is interested in a survival homestead, THAT is the kind of tree you want, because that tree is a survivor, and NO, the apples won't look exactly like a gala from generation to generation, but a-it's still edible fruit and b-grafting is an easy skill to learn once the homesteader is actually on site. Until then, expecting a "true-to-varietal" apple is not practical. But he can still have fruit growing on his property in the meantime. |
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[#21]
I think we are basically talking about the same thing, but using different language (and have different recommendations.)
Quoted: There ARE apples from seed. There have ALWAYS been apples from seed. You are thinking like a product of the past 100 years (which, of course, you are.) If there were no apples from seed, we would not have apples. NO, the apples I speak of (little white apples) were not crabapples. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: There ARE apples from seed. There have ALWAYS been apples from seed. You are thinking like a product of the past 100 years (which, of course, you are.) If there were no apples from seed, we would not have apples. NO, the apples I speak of (little white apples) were not crabapples. Do apples from seed morph? Yes. As do any sexually produced plants. Can they still be a viable food source? Absolutely. I should add, for clarity, so you don't think I'm an idiot...
Of course they don't produce true. But they DO PRODUCE. And if someone is interested in a survival homestead, THAT is the kind of tree you want, because that tree is a survivor, and NO, the apples won't look exactly like a gala from generation to generation, but a-it's still edible fruit and b-grafting is an easy skill to learn once the homesteader is actually on site. Until then, expecting a "true-to-varietal" apple is not practical. But he can still have fruit growing on his property in the meantime. I found another place right in the OP's AO that looks right up his alley: Big Horse Creek Farm Antique and Heirloom Apple Trees. I'm betting if the OP got in contact with them and described his situation, they could recommend the best varieties that can survive neglect. Hell, I might do that - their selection looks huge. And they sell scion wood as well as trees. |
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[#22]
Quoted:
I think we are basically talking about the same thing, but using different language (and have different recommendations.) Yes, that is absolutely correct. The parent tree of all apples is Malus sieversii, the "wild apple", that still grows in Kazakhstan. Yes, but the extent to which they morph is highly variable. Lots of plants reproduce very, very close to form, else collecting seeds for heirloom tomatoes wouldn't work. But apples are at the opposite end - their natural tendency is to produce something different. Eh, that might just need to stay a point of disagreement. In most cases, apple trees grown from seed are closer to the wild parent - small and VERY sour. When Johnny Appleseed walked west and planted orchards, it wasn't for eating apples - it was for cider apples. Yes, a small percentage of trees grown from seed *might* be suitable for eating out of hand. But that's luck, not anything one can predict. I don't think you are an idiot. I have no problem believing that the "little white apples" to which your grandmother referred came from a seed grown tree. But that result, from everything I've read, is not common. But I wasn't suggesting he plant rootstock, then graft on scion wood, before he is on site. I was suggesting he root and plant cuttings from old trees that have ALREADY demonstrated the genetics to survive unattended. Planting from seed is no guarantee of a strong tree - it could be on the losing side of the genetic dice. They won't produce like an ungrafted tree - the fruit will likely be smaller and fewer of them - but they will be true to form genetically. And they don't have to be Gala or Red Delicious or Fuji. If he wants to plant from seed, sure - plant a hundred trees. But he won't know for years what the results will be. I found another place right in the OP's AO that looks right up his alley: Big Horse Creek Farm Antique and Heirloom Apple Trees. I'm betting if the OP got in contact with them and described his situation, they could recommend the best varieties that can survive neglect. Hell, I might do that - their selection looks huge. And they sell scion wood as well as trees. View Quote And I think both ways are viable. Of course, I come from people who survived off the land, and did their own grafting, too. But there were "volunteer" apple trees all around the area where I grew up, and folks knew where the good ones were. Some were sour, and some were not, just as you say. Maybe the sour ones got cut down before I was born. Who knows? The good ones were allowed to grow, which (in my view) selects for the better stock. I happen to be a huge fan of the biodiversity that comes only from sexual reproduction, because I think it's our salvation in future years. That is not to say I don't like Gala apples. I buy a bunch of them. That's a really great looking resource, btw. If you order from them, will you come back and give us a report either here or in another thread? |
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[#23]
All very good info. Thank you, i am looking in to Big Horse Creek Farms now but its only apples. I believe we got derailed a bit earlier and went done the apple path. I will pick up a few local trees this trip home plant mulch and see what comes from it.
As for the rest of the time I am just going to stroll through the woods and enjoy the peacefulness of the property. Plan out the best areas to plan future trees i suppose. |
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[#24]
We planted 4 brown turkey fig trees/bushes this spring.
We found two of them had one fig each growing on them and left them growing, instead of pinching them off as the instructions directed. Man, those two figs are really making us look forward to next year. So far, nothing has attempted to bother the trees (Japanese beetles eat the cherry tree leaves up every summer) or eat the fruit (squirrels and deer work our peach trees over every year we have peaches). Deer get into our persimmons all the time. If it hits the ground, the deer get it over night. The Japanese beetles work over the leaves on the grape vines and the mocking birds eat the grapes like crazy if you can't keep them out. Nets over the bushes/vines would help with the birds, but the cherry tree's gotten way to big to cover with a net. The miniature fruit trees don't seem to last longer than 5 or 6 years before they die. We lost all our miniature peach, plum and apple trees after a few short years. |
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[#25]
Quoted:
We planted 4 brown turkey fig trees/bushes this spring. We found two of them had one fig each growing on them and left them growing, instead of pinching them off as the instructions directed. Man, those two figs are really making us look forward to next year. So far, nothing has attempted to bother the trees (Japanese beetles eat the cherry tree leaves up every summer) or eat the fruit (squirrels and deer work our peach trees over every year we have peaches). Deer get into our persimmons all the time. If it hits the ground, the deer get it over night. The Japanese beetles work over the leaves on the grape vines and the mocking birds eat the grapes like crazy if you can't keep them out. Nets over the bushes/vines would help with the birds, but the cherry tree's gotten way to big to cover with a net. The miniature fruit trees don't seem to last longer than 5 or 6 years before they die. We lost all our miniature peach, plum and apple trees after a few short years. View Quote In Italy it is common to see netting systems for individual gardens as well as private and commercial orchards. I never see things like that back in the US. I am just taking notes and learning now, hopefully i will have a good plan to implement in the future. As difficult as all this sounds no wonder people purchase at the store. |
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[#26]
Quoted:
All very good info. Thank you, i am looking in to Big Horse Creek Farms now but its only apples. I believe we got derailed a bit earlier and went done the apple path. I will pick up a few local trees this trip home plant mulch and see what comes from it. As for the rest of the time I am just going to stroll through the woods and enjoy the peacefulness of the property. Plan out the best areas to plan future trees i suppose. View Quote There is no point trying to reproduce what you already have. If you have walnut and hickory and quince. you don't need to plant that. I don't get the sense that you know what's on your property at present. If that's not correct, please say so. |
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[#27]
I started looking to fruit trees last year. Here is what I found. Most varieties are geared towards a spring sale and the hot varieties sell out really quick, as in days. I was going to order multiple varieties of peaches but by the time I finished my research, a couple of weeks, most of what I was wanted was out of stock with a notice "Come back Sprint 2018".
If you are just going to "plant a peach tree" and don't really care about the species, fruiting period, or size of the tree then there is no reason to order through a nursery. Right now Lowes and other places are carrying a small selection of tress but in the spring time will have many varieties of 2 year old trees for around $25. Their stock will rotate all spring. All the big box stores will have them Lowes, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, Rural King, Southern States...etc. Any home or farm type store. The best trees I found were actually 3 year old trees at Southern States. Not all locations carry the trees so you might have to ask around. I wasn't sure where I wanted to plant the trees, so I just transplanted them into much larger containers. One thing I did was prune back the trees like you are supposed to, removing 1/3 or so of all the new growth plus any branches that would not make good branches. With that done they managed to survive in the containers even with several weeks of no rain. So survivability should be ok until you have an extended drought. |
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