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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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What I think is that you are successfully selecting for juglone tolerance.
And that's really pretty damn cool. The ones in the last photo--the larger plant that has gone from 3 to 6" in 20 days....it looks pale in the photos. Is it in reality too pale? I'm wondering about nutrient uptake. Do you feel that the plants' abilities to take up particular nutrients is also affected? You can see that this is a very deep rabbit hole once you get going. Once you get another generation of seeds from this successful plant, I would save all I can and start a slightly more formal trial, where there is a control group, more than one of each particular "trial" and random selection of placement of pots to ensure exactly fair lighting, air flow, and other environmental conditions. At that point you can set up a trial for different amendments--different applications of NPK and micros, for instance, and you can try the liquid aeration to see what happens there. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
My goal at that point was just to find something that wasn't stunted in growth, deformed, or died. The tomato plants in my test plot have all almost died off now, where as the plants in the side garden are doing much better. I added no fertilizer and only watered the test bed only twice during the summer. I wanted their growing conditions to be as rough as possible in order to stress out the plants as much as possible. They were also hit by that late frost which zapped the plants pretty good.
I'm waiting for one more tomato to ripen and collect seeds from. That plant is a sucker from another plant that was growing well. Early in the summer I lost a plant that got hit hard by juglone, wilted and died. It is documented somewhere earlier in this thread. Either that part of the soil was a hot spot for juglone or the plant just had bad genes. I took that sucker from a plant that was growing well and just stuck it in the ground where the other plant had died. That sucker managed to root, grow, and then produced tomatoes late in the season. The first tomato produced is just now starting to ripen. I haven't worried about nutrients or nutrient uptake yet. I have run no tests on the walnut matter and have no idea what the PH or nutrient content is. I haven't added any fertilizer or anything else to the Gen 2 test material. This was just organic matter gathered 6 feet away from the trunk of an 80 year old walnut tree and then added additional walnuts, green walnuts, walnut branches, and walnut leaves. I should take it to the extension office and have them run a soil test on it and see what the results are, just to get an idea of what I'm dealing with. |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: The plant is a little pale. I moved it to the grass to get some better coloring in the picture. It isn't terrible but it could be greener. I haven't tried any type of fertilizer on the test plants. I will look into that in later tests. With my war on the squirrels there should be a decent number of black walnuts that drop from the tree. I will have to arrange for Gen 2 test 2 with new walnut matter with freshly dropped walnuts. Some material I'm reading said juglone decays rapidly if exposed to air or if it is composted. Most of the material in the Gen 2 was reused from the Gen 1 test I started in July. It is possible the juglone toxicity did decay which is why the Gen 2 test started out so well. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/680/pale_JPG-1613944.jpg View Quote You are figuring out the issues.. The planting media needs to be as strong as it was in the first test. And yes, you need to know the pH. You need to feed or not feed, and that is something we would have to figure out as you set up an experiment that has scientific significance. At this point, since we are NOT in a controlled experiment, I think you should hit that pale plant with some miracle grow and see what happens. It will educate you and all of us, as to whether the plant in (second year) juglone soil can actually take up nutrients. We do need to know whether the plants that die, die because of nutrient deficiency, and whether that is because of the juglone, or whether no nutrients were provided. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
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It may end up that you have to set up the pots with a known media--say...mostly spagnum moss (a known media with a known Ph.) And then add specific amounts of walnut shells/hulls to the media.. And plant your "juglone tolerant" seeds (or plants) in that soil. Then you will feed them or not feed them, depending on the control...and you will see what happens.
This is a multi-year test, as you already know. You are doing the first steps by finding a juglone tolerant plant. All tests beyond this will have to be more refined, if that makes sense? |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: as you set up an experiment that has scientific significance. View Quote This experiment has some scientific significance. You saw the picture of me planting the tomato plant next to 2 walnut hulls and the plant didn't die or become deformed. That is significant. It isn't double blind testing with a control significant but it shows that not all tomatoes die just because a walnut tree is nearby which is what pretty much every published article says, even those from universities with horticulture programs. |
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: It may end up that you have to set up the pots with a known media--say...mostly spagnum moss (a known media with a known Ph.) And then add specific amounts of walnut shells/hulls to the media.. And plant your "juglone tolerant" seeds (or plants) in that soil. Then you will feed them or not feed them, depending on the control...and you will see what happens. This is a multi-year test, as you already know. You are doing the first steps by finding a juglone tolerant plant. All tests beyond this will have to be more refined, if that makes sense? View Quote That makes complete sense. I have the green house area I've been using to start my plants every spring. I plan to test all winter long with seedlings, media, fertilizer, and proper note taking. I will have 11 different possible lines to test and narrow down before spring. |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: This experiment has some scientific significance. You saw the picture of me planting the tomato plant next to 2 walnut hulls and the plant didn't die or become deformed. That is significant. It isn't double blind testing with a control significant but it shows that not all tomatoes die just because a walnut tree is nearby which is what pretty much every published article says, even those from universities with horticulture programs. View Quote No, it absolutely is significant. However what THEY will accept as significant requires a certain setup. That's all I meant by it. You could probably get attention from some people with what you have already done. However the more correct the experimental design, the more attention they will pay. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Thread needs Title change..."SWIRE's long term tomato breeding project"
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"You know how butt ugly people are said to have hit every branch on the way down the ugly tree.
Well, the dumbass tree done drilled you in the butt and laid eggs in ya." -RJinks |
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
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Those lights make it nice!
I didn't realize you were feeding the fox. Thought you just caught him hanging around. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Those lights make it nice! I didn't realize you were feeding the fox. Thought you just caught him hanging around. View Quote I believe it is legal to feed him but didn't want to too much about it just in case. I see and feed him every night right after dusk. He is fairly comfortable with me around no matter what I'm doing but keeps 30-40 feet away. Sitting on the ground he will come within feet of me now to grab some food but then backs off to 10-15 feet away. He is either storing food for later or taking food back to the den for others. He will grab a large chunk of food and then trots off in the direction of his den. When he comes out it is too dark for color video which is really disappointing. |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: I believe it is legal to feed him but didn't want to too much about it just in case. I see and feed him every night right after dusk. He is fairly comfortable with me around no matter what I'm doing but keeps 30-40 feet away. Sitting on the ground he will come within feet of me now to grab some food but then backs off to 10-15 feet away. He is either storing food for later or taking food back to the den for others. He will grab a large chunk of food and then trots off in the direction of his den. When he comes out it is too dark for color video which is really disappointing. View Quote Mama may have babies. He may be helping. Or somebody sick and old. They help those too, sometimes. The animal kingdom is often hard, but sometimes surprisingly not hard. I love fox, but you are right for not showing you getting close to him. If he is not afraid of people, he will end up dead because a lot of people are stupid. I would want to make friends with him, even so. I wouldn't be able to help myself. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Mama may have babies. He may be helping. Or somebody sick and old. They help those too, sometimes. The animal kingdom is often hard, but sometimes surprisingly not hard. I love fox, but you are right for not showing you getting close to him. If he is not afraid of people, he will end up dead because a lot of people are stupid. I would want to make friends with him, even so. I wouldn't be able to help myself. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By SWIRE: I believe it is legal to feed him but didn't want to too much about it just in case. I see and feed him every night right after dusk. He is fairly comfortable with me around no matter what I'm doing but keeps 30-40 feet away. Sitting on the ground he will come within feet of me now to grab some food but then backs off to 10-15 feet away. He is either storing food for later or taking food back to the den for others. He will grab a large chunk of food and then trots off in the direction of his den. When he comes out it is too dark for color video which is really disappointing. Mama may have babies. He may be helping. Or somebody sick and old. They help those too, sometimes. The animal kingdom is often hard, but sometimes surprisingly not hard. I love fox, but you are right for not showing you getting close to him. If he is not afraid of people, he will end up dead because a lot of people are stupid. I would want to make friends with him, even so. I wouldn't be able to help myself. Tonight he was burying some of the food since winter is coming. That is the first time I've seen that. |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: He is still very skittish or smart like a fox. If anything is off he is standoffish. I brought a tripod for the camera to get the above pictures. It was something different and he did not like it. It took him five minutes to get comfortable laying down 30 feet away from me because of it. If I stumble while walking he runs off 40+ feet and then watches me. If I toss out some food too quick or with the wrong motion he runs off like I threw something at him. One dog barking and he is watching his surroundings 80% of the time. Two dogs start barking and he will grab food and disappear. He has some very strong self preservation skills. As long as people don't find the den I think he will do just fine. Tonight he was burying some of the food since winter is coming. That is the first time I've seen that. View Quote Wow...I have not seen that "burying" behavior before, either. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Still one of my favorite threads to click on.
Bumping it to keep it alive. |
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Twice I have seen something fury and gray as big if not bigger than the fox near the house. I know it wasn't the fox because the fox was sitting in the yard both times this happened. It scatters very quickly when it sees me, I hear the commotion and just catch a glimpse of it. Either there is another fox, a coyote being very brave, or a huge long haired gray cat. A cat typically wouldn't run and disappear like it. I'm not sure how a coyote would behave, from video clips they don't seem skittish the way a fox would be. The first encounter I thought it was the fox, just getting oddly close to the house. After the animal ran off I looked in the yard and regular fox was sitting there. What I saw last night seemed to be bigger than the fox.
I do have trail cameras setup but not in area that I've seen this other animal. I will need to pull some memory cards and see if I happened to catch anything passing by those areas. |
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The Gray Fox still comes nightly. I finally got a decent video of him after bringing a portable light out. He looks to see what every little noise is but as you can see he isn't too concerned about my presence. He still doesn't get too close and prefers to a minimum of 10 feet away from me.
Gray Fox Eating 2020 11 19 |
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: The bridge project is one that I have been working on lately. The retaining wall failed as tree roots had grown through it and when the water was high it started eroding the dirt. In the second picture look at the water line of the stone supports for the front corner of the bridge. You can see under them. That corner of the bridge had a 16" deep hole that extended 18" under the bridge support. You can see straight under the rock support, meaning there is nothing holding up that corner of the bridge. I didn't realize that until I bought a pair of waders and was trying to work on the bridge. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/680/bridge_before2_JPG-1655033.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/680/bridge_before3_JPG-1655034.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/680/bridge_before1_JPG-1655032.jpg View Quote I'll be interested in seeing pics of the repair. |
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"He was seeing the enormity of the smallness of the enemy who was destroying the world.[...] If this is what has beaten us, he thought, the guilt is ours." - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Originally Posted By kill-9: I'll be interested in seeing pics of the repair. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By kill-9: Originally Posted By SWIRE: The bridge project is one that I have been working on lately. The retaining wall failed as tree roots had grown through it and when the water was high it started eroding the dirt. In the second picture look at the water line of the stone supports for the front corner of the bridge. You can see under them. That corner of the bridge had a 16" deep hole that extended 18" under the bridge support. You can see straight under the rock support, meaning there is nothing holding up that corner of the bridge. I didn't realize that until I bought a pair of waders and was trying to work on the bridge. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/680/bridge_before2_JPG-1655033.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/680/bridge_before3_JPG-1655034.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/680/bridge_before1_JPG-1655032.jpg I'll be interested in seeing pics of the repair. The repair is finally done. I will have lots of pictures of the process to post. I'm trying to clean up the area and finalize the placement of additional rocks along the edge of the bank to help eliminate future erosion. After that I will take my final set of pictures. |
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The fox has gotten a bit chunky.
Shorter Enhanced Clip Fox 2020 11 23 Eating a Chicken Quarter Longer raw footage clip with a lot more activity. fox 2020 11 23 |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: The Gray Fox still comes nightly. I finally got a decent video of him after bringing a portable light out. He looks to see what every little noise is but as you can see he isn't too concerned about my presence. He still doesn't get too close and prefers to a minimum of 10 feet away from me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeipIs2Swl4 View Quote Awww! Gorgeous and really healthy. I'm sure in part that's from you feeding him. I bet come February or March there will be an entire family coming to visit. Fox babies make you want to keep them. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Awww! Gorgeous and really healthy. I'm sure in part that's from you feeding him. I bet come February or March there will be an entire family coming to visit. Fox babies make you want to keep them. View Quote That would be excellent if that happened. Do you or anyone else have knowledge on building fox habitat? I have plenty of room to build structure for a den. I rather have them on my property instead of where they are at now. The fox has to cross a dead end road to get my property. I rather it not have any possible exposure to the random public and vehicular traffic on a daily basis. Not sure how I would convince it to move but if there is a family of them then they will need additional dens. |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: That would be excellent if that happened. Do you or anyone else have knowledge on building fox habitat? I have plenty of room to build structure for a den. I rather have them on my property instead of where they are at now. The fox has to cross a dead end road to get my property. I rather it not have any possible exposure to the random public and vehicular traffic on a daily basis. Not sure how I would convince it to move but if there is a family of them then they will need additional dens. View Quote I transport wildlife for a rehabber who specializes in fox. Let me ask her for advice. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: I transport wildlife for a rehabber who specializes in fox. Let me ask her for advice. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By SWIRE: That would be excellent if that happened. Do you or anyone else have knowledge on building fox habitat? I have plenty of room to build structure for a den. I rather have them on my property instead of where they are at now. The fox has to cross a dead end road to get my property. I rather it not have any possible exposure to the random public and vehicular traffic on a daily basis. Not sure how I would convince it to move but if there is a family of them then they will need additional dens. I transport wildlife for a rehabber who specializes in fox. Let me ask her for advice. That would be great. The back yard is all one slope down to the creekl, about a 50 foot elevation change. There is lots of brush, rocks, and dirt available for me to utilize. With my backhoe digging some type of den isn't a problem. I have not seen the fox since I posted that last video. For months he has come by every night and now it is getting close to a week where I haven't seen him. It gets dark earlier, so maybe he has been coming by later. I still put food out but I have no idea if he is what is eating it. I will have to move a trail camera over to the new spot where I have been putting food out to see if he comes by. |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: That would be great. The back yard is all one slope down to the creekl, about a 50 foot elevation change. There is lots of brush, rocks, and dirt available for me to utilize. With my backhoe digging some type of den isn't a problem. I have not seen the fox since I posted that last video. For months he has come by every night and now it is getting close to a week where I haven't seen him. It gets dark earlier, so maybe he has been coming by later. I still put food out but I have no idea if he is what is eating it. I will have to move a trail camera over to the new spot where I have been putting food out to see if he comes by. View Quote Oh I hope he is still coming to eat. My resource was useless. We will have to research fox habitat. I will see if I can put some time into it in the coming days, and will share what I find. I do know that any above-ground structure would likely be useless--at least that is my guess. My instinct tells me that if you dig up an area, you would need to do everything you can to make it seem like it has "been there"...cover with leaves, brush, etc. And still, the smell of the freshly turned earth might be offputting to the fox. I don't know. But save all old big logs, etc. Pile them on top of rocks when you get the chance. STuff we call a mess, they call "home." Listen...Foxes eat veggies... So you are trying to grow veggies on the Elijah Craig property, right? So you wnat the fox to live there, but....he's going to eat your veggies. As is his family. Are you okay with that? If not, don't encourage him. You cannot feed him/them enough to keep him from doing what he naturally does. Just sayin. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
I finally got the fox against last night. He is doing fine and looking well. He got several pieces of raw bacon along with grapes and dog food.
As for what foxes eat I'm not sure if they have limits like dogs do. I recently heard that grapes are supposedly bad for dogs...but I give the fox a handful of grapes several times a week and he is fine. I haven't been too concerned about what he might eat out of the garden as I've given him blackberries off my vines, which he enjoyed, but there was no evidence that any animal had eat any of them. The main veggies I grow would be tomatoes and peppers. Not sure if they would appeal to a fox. Also this fox only seems to come out at night to eat which means I can harvest the ripe produce at the end of the day. The garden at the Craig house has always been a disappointment. The only thing it was good for was the juglone experiments, which other than a hobby isn't worth much. The juglone isn't the only problem, the soil is the worst soil that I have ever encountered in my life. The soil samples I had don't see to be too terrible but the problem is it is non-aerate heavy clay with no organic matter. Throw in a hot dry spell and that soil turns hard as a rock. Even when I water the plants a couple hours later the leaves will be wilting again and this is in the non-juglone area. The soil needs to be aerated and a lot of organic matter added to it. I'm thinking of having truck loads of dirt/compost brought in. I have plenty of the materials you described for a den. Some key points I need to figure out is what type of ground do they prefer? Would they want the den at the top of a hill so they have the widest point of view, partially down the hill, at the bottom, next to big structures like a tree so it is concealed or out in the open with maybe some larger rocks for a slight bit of cover? Do they have escape tunnels or just one entrance. How big should the opening be, how large inside, is it flat or do they keep digging down? |
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: I finally got the fox against last night. He is doing fine and looking well. He got several pieces of raw bacon along with grapes and dog food. As for what foxes eat I'm not sure if they have limits like dogs do. I recently heard that grapes are supposedly bad for dogs...but I give the fox a handful of grapes several times a week and he is fine. I haven't been too concerned about what he might eat out of the garden as I've given him blackberries off my vines, which he enjoyed, but there was no evidence that any animal had eat any of them. The main veggies I grow would be tomatoes and peppers. Not sure if they would appeal to a fox. Also this fox only seems to come out at night to eat which means I can harvest the ripe produce at the end of the day. The garden at the Craig house has always been a disappointment. The only thing it was good for was the juglone experiments, which other than a hobby isn't worth much. The juglone isn't the only problem, the soil is the worst soil that I have ever encountered in my life. The soil samples I had don't see to be too terrible but the problem is it is non-aerate heavy clay with no organic matter. Throw in a hot dry spell and that soil turns hard as a rock. Even when I water the plants a couple hours later the leaves will be wilting again and this is in the non-juglone area. The soil needs to be aerated and a lot of organic matter added to it. I'm thinking of having truck loads of dirt/compost brought in. I have plenty of the materials you described for a den. Some key points I need to figure out is what type of ground do they prefer? Would they want the den at the top of a hill so they have the widest point of view, partially down the hill, at the bottom, next to big structures like a tree so it is concealed or out in the open with maybe some larger rocks for a slight bit of cover? Do they have escape tunnels or just one entrance. How big should the opening be, how large inside, is it flat or do they keep digging down? View Quote Good questions all. Wish my dad were still alive. He could have answered all of them. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
I have a bridge update, I promise. It has been done for months now. I just haven't grabbed all the pictures to post.
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Been following this tread for a couple years..
Look forward to all updates and the vids you post. Are ya gonna refresh the tulips??? They were gorgeous! ETA.. I recall ya had some trouble with trespassers / cameras etc.. Did that situation get resolved?? Also..How's the fox doing? Update on the solar for the year?? Thanx..FN |
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Originally Posted By FN64GR: Been following this tread for a couple years.. Look forward to all updates and the vids you post. Are ya gonna refresh the tulips??? They were gorgeous! ETA.. I recall ya had some trouble with trespassers / cameras etc.. Did that situation get resolved?? Also..How's the fox doing? Update on the solar for the year?? Thanx..FN View Quote It was only after I bought 1,200 tulip bulbs and planted them did I learn that in this area they pretty much need to be treated as an annual and replanted every year or two. I was hoping for something that would come back and not require a constant replanting. I've been looking for a suitable replacement since. Daffodils are about the only low maintenance item that I have found. They would look like but not as nice as tulips. Most trespassers have learned to stay away from the property. However, the homeless population seems to know they get to the creek through my yard and I still catch them on camera a couple times a year. The fox I saw last night. He's lost some of the weight he gained from the fall. I haven't been putting out scraps as much lately. Standing out in the cold and freezing isn't as much fun as sitting in the grass on a warm summer night waiting for him to show up. The war on the squirrels was pretty effective. Previous years they would be running all over the roof and climbing inside the house. This year I haven't seen any on or going into the house. There is still at least one ground hog living under the neighbors garage. As soon as I capture that one I will fill in the hole with concrete. All the other dens that I have found have been removed with the backhoe. The tractor needs a new clutch and brakes. I need to get that into the shop before it starts to warm up. The solar system and electrical projects are still not complete. I had started building the frame for the second set of solar panels when I noticed the shadow of a maple tree starting to cover the area around 4pm. A spot 30 feet behind that had full sun. So now I want to move the first array but might just settle on putting the second one up in the new location first. There is a big project that I did not complete before the colder weather came. I will probably hold off that update until I get further along in the spring. The bridge project is where I spent the rest of the fall. I will be posting that update soon. |
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"Problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented."
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Originally Posted By kallnojoy: Stake in place with the rebar and backfill with sandbags along the panel and infill with rocks behind that. T View Quote The bottom of the creek is bedrock. That helps in some aspects but makes things difficult in others. There is no driving a stake into bedrock. I did buy a large hammer drill but ended up not using it during this part of the project. The high water level we have had the last few years has been the biggest factor in not being able to fix it. I did line the front of the area with rocks to help keep some of the water away and slow down the erosion. It still got to the point where I could not get my tractor across. In 2019 and 2020, mid-July through September were dry and when the water level finally dropped. Even in 18 inches of water that is a lot of pressure to work against, water that is 3 to 4 feet is a complete no go. The bridge was built to small so it backs up the water, which creates fast and deep water. Once you get away from the bridge wading in the creek isn't that big of a deal but at the bridge the water force is much different. |
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I am missing some of the pictures from this point on and will pause the updates while I look for them. The rest of the updates are of the rebuilding process. I'll leave a teaser though by the end the effort involved 52 of the 80lb bags of Quikrete.
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My first thought would be to divert that water away from the hole by whatever means and get some quick drying concrete and stones in that hole for a foundation. Maybe dump it in dry in layers to let the seepage wet it.
Interested to see how you handle it. |
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"You know how butt ugly people are said to have hit every branch on the way down the ugly tree.
Well, the dumbass tree done drilled you in the butt and laid eggs in ya." -RJinks |
Originally Posted By rcav8r: My first thought would be to divert that water away from the hole by whatever means and get some quick drying concrete and stones in that hole for a foundation. Maybe dump it in dry in layers to let the seepage wet it. Interested to see how you handle it. View Quote My plan was to build forms, use some heavy plastic and sand bags, pumps, and remove the water. I know I took pictures of that effort but I cannot find them. The plan failed in a big way. Even with 2 pumps running the most I could do was drop the water level 2 inches inside the forms. Water was flowing up through the bedrock cracks and it was coming in from the backside and behind the bridge supports. Running the pumps actually created more current in the water than if I had just left it alone. The end effort required dumping concrete in the forms to displace the water. It worked but I have no idea how strong that concrete will be since in ended up extra wet. Like you mentioned, building in layers is how ended up doing things. The first layer was built thick enough to get the concrete above the low water level. A rough estimate of what I was working with was 40 cubic feet of water inside the forms, approximately 300 gallons, and the pumps pulling water out at 30 gallons a minute. In 10 minutes the inside of the forms should have been dry but after dropping the water level about 2 inches the water level stayed steady. |
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It sounds like you're gonna need a drought to fix that, or have to make a bigger diverter. Obviously, without the pics, I can't see what you were doing. Is it possible the hole goes further under the bridge support to let that water in?
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"You know how butt ugly people are said to have hit every branch on the way down the ugly tree.
Well, the dumbass tree done drilled you in the butt and laid eggs in ya." -RJinks |
Originally Posted By rcav8r: It sounds like you're gonna need a drought to fix that, or have to make a bigger diverter. Obviously, without the pics, I can't see what you were doing. Is it possible the hole goes further under the bridge support to let that water in? View Quote The whole bridge support is made of stacked stone with a minimum of a foot of standing water around it. The hole under the front edge of the support is 12 inches deeper than the regular creek bottom. I would would need 2x the plastic sheeting and 100 sandbags instead of 20 to even try to limit the water inflow. I have the whole structure rebuilt now. Last August through most of October was very dry and I was able to get the project knocked out. I went with thicker concrete verses the extra time and expense to try to stop the water inflow. From what I read as long as there isn't a current the concrete mixture will displace the water and everything will be fine. My only concern was initial concrete was being poured through through water, it took 3 times the concrete than I expected, and there was a delay while mixing up the concrete. It was at least 30 minutes from the time I first poured concrete into the form full of water before I got the concrete level above the water line. I'm not sure how that 30 minutes in water might have affected the first batch of concrete. They do make additives for pouring water into concrete, it is my understanding that just helps it stick together so any current won't wash away the cement from the mixture. Since I was pouring it into a form there should not have been much if any current. |
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Could you shape the support to divert the water? If it was diagonal on the face versus flat it seems like the water would push past easier.
If it was a V it would be easier still but it seems like would divert water towards the bank Thanks for posting |
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"Problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented."
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Originally Posted By colt_thompson: Could you shape the support to divert the water? If it was diagonal on the face versus flat it seems like the water would push past easier. If it was a V it would be easier still but it seems like would divert water towards the bank Thanks for posting View Quote That is sort of what I did. The new face of the wall is built at an angle and the footer is built at a steeper angle. We had heavy rains the other day and the creek was way up. The water was being funneled pretty well. I had/have a larger plan of running a 4' tall concrete retaining wall from the bridge upstream about 30 feet as that is where the most erosion has occurred. The one contractor that came out quoted me $18,000 to do that as he tends to over build and also wanted to divert the creek during the process. I won't be going with that option but will be looking at doing something myself if I have time. |
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