I recently picked up an ATI AR15 9mm pistol and added to a small collection of other “pistols”.  The AR, AK and CZ Scorpion:





For the ATI AR15 9mm, I added a different grip, sling plate for single point sling, KAK arm brace, Holosun sight and a Magpul rear BUIS and Troy fixed front which I had in my spare parts box.



The handguard is a pretty small diameter and I really wish manufacturers would take into consideration typical suppressor diameters to integrate down the road.  For now, no suppressor, but this would be a good host project.  I was going to add a section of KeyMod-rail, but the flash suppressor is pretty big and doesn't allow the largest rail section to fit.  I'm going to try a shorter rail; it's only for an AFG, but I want to try it out.  Also, ETS mags to work just fine, but mine are really difficult to seat regardless of an open or close bolt.  They need a pretty stout slap to seat them, but they work just fine.  I'm spoiled for a bolt hold-open, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the design.  It's lightweight; as you see it minus the magazine it weighs 5 pounds, 13 oz. My Scorpion set up very similar, weighs 6 pounds 10 oz.

The ATI handles really well.  I haven't really tested it for accuracy yet (at least not out to 100 meters), but it ate through a few hundred rounds without a glitch.  Right now it's just a fun-gun, but both my CZ and this ATI are at the top of the SBR project list and I really don't think there is a can on the market that will fit inside the handguard tube...I'll look around, but may have to open it up or replace it as well. The ATI is probably more expensive for what it is and not having a bolt-hold open, but if anything, it's proven reliable so far and quite handy for its size.

So after my quick review of the ATI, and looking at the other “pistols”, I must admit, I love the pseudo-SBR size and performance.  I’ve held of doing the whole SBR thing only because I’ve been on Active Duty and a certain career decision could have put me on the PCS cycle every year for a few years (which my wife vetoed).  Still, pre-SHTF travel does make it difficult to travel across state lines with an SBR and these “pistols” are the next best option.  This all assumes this type of platform is something that works for you and your situation.  Most would just stick with a CCW and a rifle or shotgun…both of which work for all but the most discreet-necessary scenarios.

Sure, I know we can rationalize and make excuses for whatever our choices are, but I did recall some states restricting how a rifle is carried in a vehicle but allow handguns (for self-defense) to be carried “ready” in one’s vehicle.  In my opinion, these pseudo-SBRs are no replacement for a conceal-carried handgun, but they can offer some value for those who want either more capacity, more performance or more range than your typical CCW.  These are a niche firearm, but as I mentioned, I’m really arming to their size, versatility and relatively less restrictive for owning and traveling.  Ranges (for me) are basically inside 100 meters for the 9mm’s and potentially out to 150 meters for the AR/AK.

Just curious if anybody else has considered these types of pistols? I really like the use of the KAK Shockwave arm brace and there are even more functional offerings coming out.  Just another consideration for your toolbox if it fits your requirements…as I’ve said, it’s not for everyone, but I’ve found they work well for me in some situations.

ROCK6

Rock6... I too like the concept.. I have a registered Mk18 SBR, but it is pretty heavy with the KAC fore end... I have a .22lr upper for it, but just before the election built a 10.5 basic YHM fore end on an Aero Precision upper and PSA lower... for grins I added a LAW folding stock adapter to the KAK tube (no shock wave) and gives me great length of pull....it is a work in progress, as I've been playing with an AR9 carbine for USPSA PCC

The LAW folding stock adapter is unique...something to consider if you really need compactness!  Hey, does your AR9 have a bolt-hold open?  I would suspect that runs like a champ as well...

The other bit of irony is the avoidance of shoulder fire to avoid the NFA violations and their popularity is growing and the illicit use of shouldering the arm brace is quite common.  I took a carbine class with my son last month and a guy in the class had a real nice AR pistol with arm brace.  He ran that whole course with the carbine from the shoulder and there was a detective (not sure what department) and to Atlanta PD officers in the class they never said a thing.  I'm not in judgment mode, but it was an interesting observation and hopefully certain parts of the NFA will be repealed such as suppressors, SBRs and SBSs.  I still the need will remain as we have some draconian socialist states that will likely continue their independent assaults on certain Constitutional Rights and some border those states, travel to or through, so options are always a good thing in my book.

ROCK6

All the officers I know don't care to go out of their way with a stupid victim-less crime...unless the person is deserving of it because they need something that may stick with a habitual violent repeat offender on a first name basis douche-bag.

Things I have noticed here is that the police protect and serve. Back in the Northeast, they're all having the mindset that we're all criminals and that we haven't been caught yet.

I carry a copy of the ATF letter (archived on AR pistol thread) when I shoot the "pistol" stating it is lawful to fire an AR pistol from the shoulder via the buffer tube...the LAW folding stock was added to the pistol as it was a convenient platform, and not really necessary as I could fire the KAK tube alone fairly comfortably, and not have to worry about whether a shock wave or brace would be frowned upon... with the LAW adapter and the KAK buffer tube, the length of pull is actually slightly longer than a rifle length buffer tube

re the LRBHO of my AR9... no it does not... I built mine on a New Frontier Armory Glock lower, and at the time the LRBHO options were not that promising... mine is dedicated for USPSA PCC and other than locking the bolt back to show clear, it wasn't something that I thought necessary... a friend with a Colt style lower has broken 1 and bent another bolt catch .

I'll go track down that ATF letter, but it reinforces the stupidity of the law...just something we have to continually deal with.  I do agree, shooting with just the tube really isn't too uncomfortable and especially not with the 9mm's.  Interesting on breaking the bolt-catches, but with the heavier mass of a 9mm bolt, I can see that happening more frequently.  Like I said, it was a minor inconvenience that you just need to be aware of...it's good to see you're working around it in USPSA...

ROCK6

Rock6... I think that the PDF link at the bottom of the Shortbarrel Shepherd has the best copy of the Sgt Joe Bradley 903050:AG  BATFE letter

http://shortbarrelshepherd.com/atf-letter-on-shoulder-firing-an-ar-pistol/

AR15 Pistols are some of the best guns for Travel. Think about it, you can build one for cheap, maybe sub 500 bucks. Put a 1-4x scope on it and you are good to go. Way better range and accuracy than an average pistol, easy to conceal in a car, pistol laws apply.

Thanks!



There will always be some more restrictive states unfriendly to firearms in general, so I just see it as another good option to work around the stupid laws in certain states if forced to travel through or to...

ROCK6

Options are always good and if you do any traveling it is interesting how some places have certain rules for pistols vs. rifles.

I recall in one protest thread someone pointed out that a loaded ar at the protest broke state laws for that state, but an ar15 pistol would have been fine to have loaded at the protest.  It was an open carry sort of protest as I recall.

With the ar salad days I just settled in on ar options because of price and while I had a dislike for the ar 20 years ago I am now more willing to mess with it because I can order a mess of parts in and get some lowers shipped to an ffl and then spend a few hours assembling some ar whatevers.

Great thread.

A friend helped me put my rational
for a pistol into words.

"A carbine would be better than a
pistol, but I would not feel too under-
gunned if I had the need for a weapon,
and all I had was a  AR pistol."

I like the compactness & maneuverability
of the smaller package. I have never had
any interest in applying for a tax stamp,
so I was happy when the pistol concept
was born & flourished.

I can ring steel off of sand bags with a
red dot, at 375 yards, with boring regularity
with the right holdover.

They make a great car gun, covered by
my CCW permit, and I have built one of
mine into a night gun to pair up with my
TNV/PVS-14.





YMMV

John

That sums it up nicely, thanks!  375 yards is pretty remarkable.  I know we could debate effectiveness of .223 out of a short barrel at those distances, but rounds on target is what ultimately counts.  Still, I've only tested mine out to 130-150 yards and pretty satisfied with the accuracy (the AR 5.56 and AK pistols).  

A carbine/rifle is the preferred weapon; most would agree.  A concealable pistol is likely the weapon we will always have on us or very nearby.  These types of "pistols" offer a compact package, often larger capacity, less ballistic performance than full rifle, but more than a CCW; better range than a handgun and inherently more accurate and faster follow-ups than a handgun at longer ranges. They can also be more feasible in certain locations that have rifle restrictions and for those that don't want to go the NFA registration route, they provide a very unique option to fill certain roles.  

For me, they are a niche choice; they won't replace a CCW and they don't replace a full rifle, but they fit perfectly in some circumstances.

ROCK6

I recently replaced a 10" AR pistol with a Sub2k. The AR is fun to shoot and accurate but I wanted to simplify things a little.

I like the fact that I can use the same 33rd mags for my G19 and Sub2k, an the Sub folds up nicely and fits in my laptop bag easily.

I may go back to my AR pistol with Sig brace if I feel the need, but I would sure hate to shoot that thing without hearing protection...

Lungbuster...a good friend used my MK18 as a test bed for a couple of linear comps he designed for military applications, and along with them we tested a commercial LeVang that I had on the carbine, and a Troy Claymore...and both could "almost" be used without hearing protection... the operative word is almost...neither of the linear comps have anything like flash reducing "prongs" and would cause an occasional bright muzzle flash from volatile gases....I have a DIY aluminum flash can on my 10.5 pistol, and with just ear plugs, is not that objectionable compared to a GI birdcage

Is it something like the Noveske Pig?

Pics?

Lungbuster... pic of the LeVang on the MK18

They may not have even realized the guy wasn't legal. 

I was in the class with the guy using an AR pistol brace along with the two cops.  Sure, they may have assumed it was an SBR and maybe they just weren't aware.  I know two of the instructors mentioned it to me, but they weren't in the business of doing the policing.  As ironic as it is, I hope the proliferation of arm braces makes the whole NFA SBR/SBS thing moot and eventually taken off the registry.  At least with the current administration, they may have a much more different focus then tracking down the nuances of arm brace applications at ranges...

ROCK6

The more I hear about riots the more I think about those type of pistols. I'm starting to think my g19 edc might need an addition in the form of an AR pistol. I ran my 7.5in AR as a pistol while I waited for my tax stamp to arrive. I'm thinking of buying a new lower and building another pistol to keep with me just in case.

I drive for a living so it makes a bit more sense to keep a shorter pistol with me rather than a rifle. My sbrs stay at home.

the KAK tube for the Sig Brace (without brace) puts me nose to charging handle... same with a LAW Tactical folding adapter and standard pistol tube

This was what made me really take another look once "arm braces" were becoming popular.  I've been delaying anything NFA because you can't always control where Uncle Sam sends you.  Add that we do a lot of CONUS traveling and not all states (even if just passing through) are NFA friendly.  Having one of these "pistols" is just a much easier solution if a rifle is too much or your doing a lot of cross-state line traveling.  

ROCK6

I just bought an older AUG and stuck a 16" BBL on it.

Keeps me from worrying about all the stupid laws concerning SBR's and different states and cops who don't know the laws. [other then the commie ban type states I'm not going to in the first place]

Knowing me, I'd do something that would be a unknown no no and get my ass in a sling.

ROCK6...this is my interpretation of a PDW, but was built just as a design exercise as I wasn't sure about the outcome of the election... the lower was a PSA pistol

it may get a shorter barrel some day

That's not a bad option and one of the main reasons I've always liked bullpups like the AUG...short length with a full-size rifle barrel.  I also like the idea that they can be much easier to use in a vehicle than conventional rifles (not that I would want to do much shooing from the inside of my truck's cab).

).

Is that the folding mechanism for use with the standard buffer/spring tubes?  Compactness does have it's place!  

ROCK6

yes, sir... the adapter just connects the lower to whatever stock (buffer tube) you wish... there is a plug that fits into the rear of the bolt carrier that makes up the space to the buffer... the push button assembly holds the bolt carrier from falling out when the stock is folded... the buffer tube retaining detent is used in the rear most part of the hinge to contain the buffer and spring...the unit is heavy, adds about 1 pound... with the shorter pistol buffer tube the length is about 3/16" shorter than the KAK buffer for the SiG brace...I can get a pretty good cheek weld with nose to charging handle with both, shouldered

I have the lower. Kak and upper are in the mail. It's going to be my new travel gun and possibly HD. I'm pretty pumped for it.

ROCK6... I think I'm done, but haven't shot it yet...not too optimistic on reliability and accuracy but will test Wednesday... most likely the 10.5" will go back on with the fixed KAK buffer tube and fixed sights to free up the Trijicon...if you go this short consider a hand stop... shown is from 1/2" aluminum round stock with a shoulder turned that fits the width of the fore end slot... fixed with a 10-24 button head cap screw that utilized one of the rail mounting plates

I've got 4 registered SBRs, 3 ARs and a Scorpion. I also built a pistol when the sig brace first came out. I hated it, it was heavy and rotated around the tube when shooting, then the atf decided you couldn't shoulder them so I started filing my form 1s, I much prefer the SBRs but that being said the braces have improved quite a bit since the original and now the atf has back peddled on their stance ( or at least clarified it) and it is a pain to transport an sbr across state lines.

I've recently decided to build a 9mm AR pistol that accepts glock mags. I want it to carry when traveling without the hassle of an sbr and it will use the same mags as my carry pistol. I definitely think that they have a place in the arsenal.


Rock, check out the Midwest industries handguard that is designed for a suppressor.