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Have had my ar15 freeze up even though i had it winterized.

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The M1 Garand successfully operated in the sub-zero temps of Western Europe and Korea. It's a durable, battle-proven action under the harshest conditions you can put a rifle through ...

Sure, the type of lubrication matters, but given the right lube for the right environment, the ol' M1 and the M1A/M14 (which is just a Garand-derivative platform) can still get the job done.

No need to believe the AR-platform is the only solution.

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Bolt actions easily fail in the cold.  I've seen several fail on elk hunting trips at near 0 degrees.  You have to clean EVERYTHING off the firing pin, spring and bolt interior or they will not work!  

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As far as bolt guns:  1917s are used on Greenland, and the Canadians were using SMLEs until very recently, which makes me wonder if cock-on-closing operation is an advantage.

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Below I copied the text I found of a test that was done by a State Trooper in Alaska. I once did an informal test of my AR. I left it out in the shed overnight when it got down to 0 degrees F. Next morning, I charged the rifle and it fired a half dozen rounds fine. But that really does not prove anything. A real test is when the rifle is subject to field carry and abuse over the course of a few days in freezing weather. The Alaska test below was thorough and tough.

I think the AR is the best overall rifle available for the money. But if I thought I was going to be dumped into the wilderness in the middle of winter, I'd want an AK type rifle.

A few years ago, before Saiga rifles were banned from importation, I thought a Saiga 223, converted to use AR magazines, would be a super choice. But the Saiga's got banned, the market for adapting them to take AR mags dried up, and ARs themselves have become ridiculously inexpensive and so widely available. The AR is such a good rifle for so many reasons, but based on the testing below, I'd still prefer an AK for the most brutal winter conditions.

SWAT Magazine April 1986

EXTREME COLD WEATHER TESTING

Treacherous Weather, Dangerous Killers And Lonely Roads Dictate That Alaska State Troopers Be Equipped With The Finest Cold Weather Rifles Available

By Jeffery Hall

Nationwide, law enforcement agencies are encountering criminals armed with sophisticated weapons. Assault rifles, shotguns, quality handguns, and automatic weapons are common. The traditional service revolver and pump shotgun are often outclassed in a firefight.

This situation is especially hazardous to the state trooper or highway patrol officer. These officers work lonely stretches of roadway, far from back-up and support facilities. A rifle can make all the differences, as encounters often take place at ranges beyond the effective range of shotguns or revolvers. This was dramatically shown in the Norco, California, bank robbery.

Several state police agencies have adopted a service rifle to be carried in the patrol car to augment the shotgun and revolver. Oklahoma, Kentucky, Mississippi, Kansas, Idaho and others have selected and adopted a service rifle for general issue. In some cases, this program started after a specific incident in which officers were injured or killed due to a lack of effective firepower.

In February of 1984, I was authorized by the Alaska State Troopers to conduct an evaluation of existing rifles for consideration as a service rifle. Due to the climate of Alaska, certain specific requirements had to be met.

We began by listing the basic requirements we felt necessary. These were:

1. 100% reliability after prolonged cold exposure
2. Night sights, if available
3. Large trigger guard for use with gloved hands
4. Folding stock
5. .223 or .308 calibers
6. Detachable box magazine, 20 to 30 round capacity
7. Must have a flash suppressor and sling mounts
8. Require minimum maintenance

The major firearms importers and manufacturers were contacted and asked to submit a sample weapon for testing. A clear understanding was reached with each supplier that the weapons would probably be damaged during testing.

Upon receipt, each weapon was inspected and field stripped. Each received a thorough cleaning to remove all oil and grease. The weapons were not lubricated at all following the cleaning.

All of the test samples were taken to the range by our special weapons team marksman. He fired each for familiarity, using different firing positions and ranges. We were not concerned with match accuracy, only with a consistent shot group in the four-inch range. All were fired using the same lot of military ball ammo, and the same lots of Federal FMJ ammunition in .223 and .308, respectively.

All of the rifles fired, showed acceptable accuracy, with none being exceptional. The HK-91 showed the tightest groups, averaging about two inches. Approximately 200 rounds were fired through each rifle, and they were not cleaned after shooting.

We then loaded guns and gear into a four-wheel drive vehicle and drove 400 miles north of Fairbanks to Coldfoot, Alaska: The average daily high temperature was -20° F, with lows at night in the -40° F range. These were good working temperatures and would be consistent with much of the state during the winter months.

The first test consisted of leaving the weapons outside for several hours, then bringing them into a warm room for thirty minutes. This allows moisture to condense on the weapons, which then freezes when they are put back outside. This often occurs when a firearm is brought into a warm room then put back into a cold car trunk. This warming/ cooling cycle was repeated six times with each weapon. No malfunctions resulted, with all of the rifles being capable of fire.

Next, one pint of warm water was poured into the bolt and trigger group of each weapon. It was then allowed to stand outside in -20° F weather for three hours. After three additional hours inside we experienced a 60% failure to function in the weapons. Either the hammer would not fall at all, or the hammer fall was too weak to detonate the round. The only weapons that experienced no malfunction were the two Galils, the Valmet and the FNC.

All of the weapons were then brought into a heated room (+70° F) and warmed for thirty minutes. After heating, all of the rifles functioned properly. Unfortunately, heated shelter may not be available when needed.

Finally, all of the weapons were cleaned of ice and lubricated heavily with Break-free. The lubricant was sprayed into the bolts and trigger groups and the weapons were cold soaked for fourteen hours at -40° F. The test showed the true colors of the weapons involved, for all but four failed to function after this test. Again, only the Galils, the Valmet, and the FNC were able to function and fire. The other weapons showed bolts frozen shut, selectors and safeties frozen, and hammers that would not fall. All of the rifles but the Galils, Valmet, and FNC were then eliminated for consideration. These, not surprisingly, share a Kalashnikov ancestry. The weapons performed as follows:

7.62 Galil No Malfunction

5.56 Galil No Malfunction

HK-91 A round was chambered and would not fire. Round was manually extracted, another was chambered which did fire. The weapon cycled and the third round would not fire. Manually operated, fourth round would not fire. Charging handle broke off.

HK-93 Fire rounds manually cycled, none fired.

HK-93A3 Same as above.

Valmet No Malfunction.

Ruger Mini-14 Five rounds manually cycled, none fired, hammer frozen, safety frozen.

M1-A Bolt would not draw far enough to the rear to chamber a round. Unable to fire.

Colt M-16 Forward assist had to be used to close the bolt. Selector frozen, could not be moved. Five rounds cycled manually, none fired.

Colt AR-15 Magazine release frozen, selector frozen.

FN-FAL Five rounds manually cycled, none fired.

FN-FNC Five rounds fired with no malfunctions. Last casing stovepiped in ejection port. Gas regulator moved to "adverse conditions" setting and five rounds fired with no malfunctions.

We later spoke with a factory representative of one of the companies involved, who was very disturbed at our results. He called his engineering department, who assured him that if the weapon was cleaned, then lightly lubricated with a synthetic lubricant, it would function properly. The entire purpose of the evaluation was to see if any of the weapons could stand up to the neglect and direct abuse we gave it. If all had failed, we would have felt that our test was unrealistic. The fact that four of the weapons performed 100% of the time shows that some are suited and some are unsuited to a cold climate. In addition, police officers are notorious for neglecting their equipment, even though their lives depend on it.

There were many other features considered in deciding which weapon we preferred. Weight, balance, trigger pull, sights, ease of operation, cost, availability of options, ease of maintenance, etc. were all considered.

The clear winner and our first choice was the Galil .223. It was 100% reliable, accurate, and easy to shoot. It has the best night sights available and an excellent folding stock. It has a reciprocating bolt handle, which can be drawn to the rear then pushed forward to lock a round in the chamber. This is a very desirable feature when the weapon is frozen or very dirty. The bolt and safety can be manipulated with either hand. It is very easy to field strip, without tools, and parts are easily replaced.

The Galil and its accessories are expensive, but not out of reach. If you are with a police department or an individual that works in a cold climate, it is the best weapon you can get.

For information on the Galil, contact: Douglas Evans, Magnum Research, 2825 Anthony Lane S., Minneapolis, MN 55418.

NOTE: The Alaska State Troopers have not yet adopted a service rifle, due to budgetary limitations and other factors. This article expresses the opinions of the author. The Department of Public Safety does not endorse any product.

The author: Jeffrey Hall is a veteran of the 173rd Airborne and 75th Infantry (Ranger). An Alaska State Trooper for seven years, he has been a member of the Department's Special Weapons Team for four years, and is presently assistant team leader. He holds a black belt in karate and is two time state IPSC Pistol Champion.

Troy L. Duncan, Alaska State Trooper, was the co-author of this project. A former Marine captain, Duncan had spent two years testing and evaluating cold weather equipment for the U.S.M.C. Trooper Duncan was a member of the Department's Special Weapons Team and was killed in action while arresting a multiple homicide Suspect.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTCpbXejJfg

As far south as I am, I'll be good to stick with the M4. If I did have to go to another platform, it'd likely be a battle rifle in 7.62 like the FAL or PTR91.

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Come on people no one is going to be out committing crimes if it’s that cold

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Interesting to see what corrodes on the guns, especially steel fasteners.

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Here is a clip from DSA arms showing a FAL caked in ice. It wasn't perfect but it was very good considering the amount of ice on the weapon and that MAC had his AK jam with less abuse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fA_YHrNyDQ

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Wow, looks like Im breaking the FAL out of my armory

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Dude, he has ran shit in Alaska and Finland.

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That does not mirror my deployment or competitive experience with the M14. * * * The reliability reputation of the Garand and M14 is not deserved because they don't do well at all in high debris ingestion environments.

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So do we have any kind of consensus on what an arctic lubricant is?  Maybe a 0W-X synthetic motor oil?  Trans fluid?

Also, pic of the Sirius Sledge Patrol with 1917s:

https://scontent-dft4-3.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/10460556_757615300980449_8184311324152153234_o.jpg?oh=2aeb83f049b265d50902489dcf2f4be5&oe=5AF5FE5B

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Chip's wife seems to make some pretty remarkable shots using the Finnish Mosins.  Can't tell if she's shooting M-39's or M-28's, but I think the Finns ought to know cold weather shooting, along with the native Alaskans.

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Okay, serious ('learning') question on the reliability of the M14 action ...  Apparently, quite a number of M14s were/are being fielded among our troops in Afghanistan.

Most of that country sure looks to be qualify as a "high-debris  ingesting environment"  -  lots of dirt and sand, and in some places snow, along with strong arid winds to move it all around and into weapons, no?

So, if you  - or any 'Stan vets here know  - how have/how did our M14s fare in that environment?

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Thule Air Base, Greenland USAF Security Forces use M-14's when there are Polar Bears around.  This from my visit in late 2004 in support of the GMD program.
I *assume* the reason they use it is because it's issued to them (and it works) vs. having some sort of choice in the matter (personal owned firearms are not allowed at TAB, at least if you're an American, not sure about the Greenlander natives).  FWIW.

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"Lubricant, Arctic Weather"

It's actually Lubricant, Aircraft Weapons.

Developed so guns at high altitude wouldn't freeze.

My understanding is it is a plasticizer based lube like the original G-96.

Make sure you get ALL of the conventional oils out of a weapon before applying either of those or it will turn to gum.

(3)Extreme cold/arctic.

Clean and lubricate the rifle in a warm room with the rifle at room temperature, if possible. Lubricating Oil, Arctic Weapons (LAW) can be used below a temperature of 32 degrees Fahrenheit and must be used below -35 degrees Fahrenheit.

(a)  Keep the rifle covered when moving from a warm to cold environment to allow gradual cooling of the rifle.  This prevents the condensation of moisture and freezing.

(b)  Always try to keep the rifle dry.

(c)  Unload and perform a function check every 30 minutes to help prevent freezing of functioning parts.

(d)  Do not lay a warm rifle in the snow or ice.

(e)  Condensation will form on the rifle when it is moved from outdoors to indoors.  If possible, leave the rifle in a protected but cold area outdoors.

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Right and complete answer to the thread:

Based on military training in northern Finland - this how you do it way above the arctic circle:

If you are dumb, any gun will be frozen solid within a few days.
Being dumb in this context means taking in to the tent (warm, gun gets moisture) and then out to freeze again multiple times. Tent has warm air, which contains a lot of moisture. It can be like a steam bath when you full squad coming in with wet clothes...

Being smart, most modern guns should work. That means clean it, lube it (even regular motoroil will do), and once you take it out to subzero temps, keep it out until job is jobbed.

If you shoot, gun warms up. Not a biggie outside, since its cold and cold air not contain that moisture.

No need for fancy magic oils. My longest exposure is over 2 weeks with really cold weather and non-stop infantry stuff. Gun was SAKO RK95 which is AK-pattern.

Note: Operating with vehicles can problematic. This applies to for example IFVs, APCs etc. For the reasons mentioned above. This is why skiing is nice.

Being dumb gets you killed. Being dumb in arctic conditions gets you killed quicker. And if you think you drank enough fluids - guess again and hydrate.

User Frozenny got it right on the previous page.

Common sense and all laws of physics apply.

Any questions?

Quoted:
Right and complete answer to the thread:

Based on military training in northern Finland - this how you do it way above the arctic circle:

If you are dumb, any gun will be frozen solid within a few days.
Being dumb in this context means taking in to the tent (warm, gun gets moisture) and then out to freeze again multiple times. Tent has warm air, which contains a lot of moisture. It can be like a steam bath when you full squad coming in with wet clothes...

Being smart, most modern guns should work. That means clean it, lube it (even regular motoroil will do), and once you take it out to subzero temps, keep it out until job is jobbed.

If you shoot, gun warms up. Not a biggie outside, since its cold and cold air not contain that moisture.

No need for fancy magic oils. My longest exposure is over 2 weeks with really cold weather and non-stop infantry stuff. Gun was SAKO RK95 which is AK-pattern.

Note: Operating with vehicles can problematic. This applies to for example IFVs, APCs etc. For the reasons mentioned above. This is why skiing is nice.

Being dumb gets you killed. Being dumb in arctic conditions gets you killed quicker. And if you think you drank enough fluids - guess again and hydrate.

User Frozenny got it right on the previous page.

Common sense and all laws of physics apply.

Any questions?

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Moisture is the enemy. Once cold, the rifle needs to stay cold. If you get in a vehicle, keep it in the trunk or bed, and if it's in the cab with you then keep the windows down and heater off. As has been said, when you bring it inside, wipe moisture off as it melts and keep it lubed. Better to leave it outside. It's a lot like working on a truck air brakes, bring it in a nice warm shop and you're just asking for problems if you don't let it stay in till it's completely thawed. This can take days with our fuel trucks, 5000 gallons of Jet-A is a nice cold sink. I do most of the work on ours outside just for that reason, both the brakes and the fueling module are controlled by air and it doesn't take much ice in a shuttle valve or interlock to stop things up. Replacing a starter at -20F isn't fun, but I dress warmly enough to go without gloves for about 20 minutes without being frostbitten. It's much better than dealing with ice in the air lines for the next 3 days. Or all winter.