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Posted: 9/5/2010 8:15:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:29:25 AM EDT
How can you trust us; you said we skeer U

Now I might need to get that banjo song from U-tube

now off to read the post––––da...de...hmmm

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:31:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:34:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:41:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:45:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
snip...

Thoughts? Are my fears about the AR overblown? Was it just a sluke the primers blowing multiple times and jamming different rifles?


I think that you may be over-thinking this.....

The blown primers are ammo problems.

How does an AR make the ammo bad?

I think those rounds would have caused failures in any rifle.

How many years did you spend shooting ARs to get 3 failures for 3 people? I think you have a lot more time and ammo run through the AR than the XCR. I think that if you had the same number of rounds and time through the XCR then you would see an almost identical rate of ammo problems.

Dueling banjos I would have to reconfigure my browser to embed so in the interest of time I link



Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:52:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:08:42 AM EDT
XCR is way too heavy IMHO. If it is available to you I would consider the FN SCAR before the XCR. But neither offers a significant advantage over the standard AR platform. I agree with the blown primers being ammo related, not really rifle related. Someone posted an AK failure where the round actually bound up the action and lodged backwards in the chamber. Any rifle can have stoppages or failures.

I would move out of New York, get a solid AR (not a parts gun) a Colt 6920 (or two) and train train train. Part of that training will be stoppages and malfunctions. A lot of good carbine courses out there now.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:19:00 AM EDT
What sticks out to me is that just about every thread I've read about XCR's, the bottom line- it was unreliable. Is this the case? I don't know, but it has stopped me from ever considering a purchase of one...
YMMV...
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:19:18 AM EDT
If you are forced into a foot bug out where every ounce will be weighed and measured by your feet, knees, hips, and back; then I understand your concern because hauling 2 riffles on foot is won't get a pass with me.

My tactical rig is for other important accessories that might not be able to walk so far.


For all other problems that i see you might have with a firearm I think the tool you want is called a "New York Reload."
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:20:30 AM EDT
That's an ammo, not platform problem. What ammo was being used at the time of the blown primers?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:30:08 AM EDT
What I don't understand is why did you have to remove the buffer tube, Hiram?

Couldn't a guy just pop the pins, separate the upper from the lower & go from there?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:06:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:09:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:25:14 AM EDT
primer backing out can be other things than ammo problem. Headspacing? Bushmaster told me that my rifle had that issue when I sent it back with the same problem. they replaced the upper. "Looks bad" doesnt compute with me. I own two ARs and 4 AK variants (two Krinks) my go to would be the AKS 74 with the AKSU 74 krink as backup. you can add optics to both to make it easily a 300+ yard rifle consistantly. Many folks guestimate their distances a llttle on the long side. Most cant hit past 200 yds constantly as they dont use their rifles regularly out that far. ARs are great guns and I used one for 10 years for Duty and have no issues at all. Hence back up weapons
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:28:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:36:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:52:10 AM EDT
stick with the AR..... parts availability.

The failures are very miniscule for the amount of rounds downrange..... you should have a secondary weapon in any case.....
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:53:49 AM EDT
The first part of my answer is anecdotal in nature, but I doubt the argument is too flawed: if this is such a serious problem, why in 50 years and several major conflicts has this not been topic of major discussion? It might have been but I don't ever recall hearing about it. So far the biggest complaint about the AR has been with the DI system and that is still a major topic for debate on needing a change.

Sometimes limited exposure to a weapon can give a skewed perception. During a field exercise we had all 4 M-60 machine guns on the support line go down; two ended up having to go to the armory to be made operational again. Based on that limited incident I may be led to think they were junk that could not be trusted; in reality it was mostly a fluke.

However, the second part is the one you should probably be more focused on: under what SHTF situation (especially in NY) do you ever envision getting into a high round count fire fight with a rifle? While my preps include an AR-15 for every able bodied adult and child in the family, that was as much a result of preparing for a possible weapons ban (pre-SCOTUS decisions) and my desire to collect several different variants and the feeling that I needed such items.

Unless you have everything else squared away, I would put it way down your list of worries that should be concerning you.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:05:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:46:37 PM EDT
the XCR has *one* source for many of the parts.

i've blown primers on some of the cheap Malay milsurp ammo that was around about 15 years ago. and the primers always jammed up under the FCG. IIRC, the XCR uses an AR FCG and would probably be just as prone to that kind of failure. i changed ammo and the problem went away... however in your case you're using what should be good quality ammo... i'd double check the headspace just to verify it's in spec. a field gauge is only $25 or so.

while a shooter or combat may be able to tell the difference between an AR and AK, the average yuppie probably can't.

i've only seen the XCR on the rack at the toy store. they have a good reputation, but are on the heavy side.

the simple solution of to conduct a strategic withdrawal to a state without an AWB and buy any gun you want.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:06:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fixer:
snip...

the simple solution of to conduct a strategic withdrawal to a state without an AWB and buy any gun you want.


I don't think any state has a banjo ban, so you would be able to play music anywhere HR..........

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:14:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:05:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Number21:
The first part of my answer is anecdotal in nature, but I doubt the argument is too flawed: if this is such a serious problem, why in 50 years and several major conflicts has this not been topic of major discussion? It might have been but I don't ever recall hearing about it. So far the biggest complaint about the AR has been with the DI system and that is still a major topic for debate on needing a change.

Sometimes limited exposure to a weapon can give a skewed perception. During a field exercise we had all 4 M-60 machine guns on the support line go down; two ended up having to go to the armory to be made operational again. Based on that limited incident I may be led to think they were junk that could not be trusted; in reality it was mostly a fluke.

However, the second part is the one you should probably be more focused on: under what SHTF situation (especially in NY) do you ever envision getting into a high round count fire fight with a rifle? While my preps include an AR-15 for every able bodied adult and child in the family, that was as much a result of preparing for a possible weapons ban (pre-SCOTUS decisions) and my desire to collect several different variants and the feeling that I needed such items.

Unless you have everything else squared away, I would put it way down your list of worries that should be concerning you.


I appreciate that, but my concerns are my concerns... no matter where they rank on your list of relevancy. I'm surprised you have never heard of this issue as I have seen it mentioned several times on this website, not like it is an every day failure, but it is not unique to me.

As for a high round count firefight, I pray I never get into a single round fire fight. God forbid the very worst case scenario transpires, I want to have full confidence in my rifle... or as close as possible, and honestly I don't have full confidence in any rifle. I am however relieved to hear that few others have had an issue with the primer locking up the weapon. I'll pray it was a fluke and I have my failures behind me.


I have heard of the issue, as well as a plethora of other minor problems that have been posted on occasion, however other than effectiveness of 5.56mm and DI, I have read more discussed threads on shaving pubes here than any of the other problems. Though to be honest I read much more in GD than anywhere else.

As for the comment that it should be low on your list of concerns; you are one of my favorite posters; it was meant with heart felt sincerity and possibly a bit terse in explanation. I share your enthusiasm with being protected by the best that I can afford and think your arsenal is more than suited for your defense needs. I only hope that you realize that there are so many other things to worry about ahead of a potential weapons malfunction in a reliable rifle platform when you are addressing SHTF. That being said we all have our own unique concerns and there is nothing wrong with that.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:17:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
AR has more spare parts available... I'd get an AK or AR & stick with it... Buy a few extra parts and be done.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Definite selling point for the AR... but again, those catastrophic failures weigh heavily on me. I can get an AK, FAL, Sig, XCR open much easier if something jams up bad due to the ARs buffer tube and the chance the BCG can lock partially back and bind everything up. This is the ONE thing that really worries me about the AR system.


+1 iNuhBaDNayburhood - get an AR or AK and a load of spare parts. Your preference. I thought by now you would have settled on a SHTF long gun or two.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:59:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 3:04:19 PM EDT by batmanacw]
The very first 3 rounds I fired out of my very first AR, a RRA Entry Tactical, blew the primers and locked the bolt. Because i had been reading up on them before my purchase, I knew I could pull back on the bolt while I slammed the butt stock on the ground and un lodged the stuck primer.

If a blown primer is the culprit, the bolt is suck in the barrel extension. You absolutely can pull the pins since the bolt is not extended at all. I did not need to pull it apart and got it unstuck immediately. Pull both pins and drop the front down slightly and pull the lower straight back. Don't take my word for it. Go drop something into the barrel extension that will not fall down the barrel. Then try it. The pins may be tight, but they will come out and the rifle will come apart if the bolt is only in the tube an inch or so.


Since then I have had not one single failure of any kind in that rifle or any of my other AR's. I just avoid Olympic ammo.



ETA: I just tried it. I dropped a dime in the receiver extension and closed the bolt on it. I was easily able to take the lower off by pulling both pins. The hammer would interfere if the BCG was too far into the buffer tube.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:00:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
AR has more spare parts available... I'd get an AK or AR & stick with it... Buy a few extra parts and be done.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Definite selling point for the AR... but again, those catastrophic failures weigh heavily on me. I can get an AK, FAL, Sig, XCR open much easier if something jams up bad due to the ARs buffer tube and the chance the BCG can lock partially back and bind everything up. This is the ONE thing that really worries me about the AR system.


It's funny you should mention that!

At the tac-carbine course I did in june my AK jammed about 6 times! FTE's & doublefeeds.

Had to stick with my AR15 for the day, but it had a broken 4-pos CAR stock! I had to duct tape the stock to keep using it.

Day-2 I took AK #2 and it ran like a Track-star from a rapist! AK's & AR's both can have good days & bad.

While not as accurate & distance as the AR, my AK still got a few decent hits at 400 yards! I'd definitely consider the AK as a 300 or less rifle for most practical purposes.

If I had to stick with ONE rifle for ALL distances & purposes, and I was NOT allowed spare parts––-it's definitely the FAL for semi-auto, or go with a good Savage/Remmy/Tikka 308 bolt gun.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


+10000 I love my STG-58 it's built like a tank and I can get better follow up shots with it then I can with my AR-15.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 11:41:25 AM EDT
I had two XCRs for awhile, and I loved the rifles. They ran perfectly. The reason I sold them? Robinson Arms customer service. I ordered a bunch of parts, and they gave me the run around for 6 months. I never received any of the parts. The only one who would give me decent reply messages was XCRmonger, and once she left the company I gave up on them. If I can't get spare parts, how can I depend on the rifle long term? I used the money to buy 2 AR15s and another AK74. Much happier now.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 11:51:56 AM EDT
AR's all the way, simple , easy to fix, parts avail. the trick is to buy Colts, or at the very least a colt upper assy. there just better, have a few of them & not so much as a hiccup. they cost more but their worth it.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 1:01:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By solution_zero:
I had two XCRs for awhile, and I loved the rifles. They ran perfectly. The reason I sold them? Robinson Arms customer service. I ordered a bunch of parts, and they gave me the run around for 6 months. I never received any of the parts. The only one who would give me decent reply messages was XCRmonger, and once she left the company I gave up on them. If I can't get spare parts, how can I depend on the rifle long term? I used the money to buy 2 AR15s and another AK74. Much happier now.


Lemme guess, you were ordering caliber conversions, right?

I have ordered twice (got an early gun, wanted spare parts) and got what I ordered immediately.


As for the gun, it has been flawless. Shot it today, in fact. Most if it's life has been with Wolf ammo, no issues at all. After having relieability problems with my AR's, I decided to torture test the XCR from day one so I put 1400 rounds thru it with no lube but what it came with. I didn't clean it either. First few outings were in 10 degree weather, no issues there. The gun runs extremely clean, the bolt after those 1400 rounds looked like an AR bolt with a magazine thru it. I have pictures if anyone wants to see the bolt at the first cleaning, which was at 2,000 rounds-I only oiled it at 1400 because I was starting to see metal dust on the op rod from running it dry. It has never had a real malfunction... I've had two instances where Wolf ammo will not lock the bolt back on an empty magazine but that is with the gas setting on low-but I just leave it there because it's so mild to shoot that way.... hasn't happened since. Every other time it has been shot it has worked 100%.

The XCR has been one of my best gun buys ever and I would trust my life with it.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:40:28 AM EDT
It’s always a tough call when you have trouble with a mechanical piece of equipment…you sort of loose faith. I would have to say it’s a fluke, just like your AK jamming…it’s not something that happens very often. I would be concerned with blown primers; if it’s the ammo, it’s not a big issue, but if it’s you AR than you really need to figure out the problem.

I’ve never had a blown primer, but I’ve had a double feed that really buggered up one of my AR’s and I had to break it down and use both a mallet and pliers to get the two jammed rounds out. I’ve also had a FAL bolt stuck so bad with an empty in the chamber, I had to use a baseball bat on the charging handle to extract…the good news is that you could still perform that in a stressful situation but it’s not a fun thing to do at the range.

I’ve got an older Model-96 carbine from ROBARMs; they make quality stuff, but spare parts would be my big concern. If you can get the spare parts and trigger time, the XCR would be a good addition to anybody’s kit. My personal issue is outfitting the rest of the family; they all have AR’s now and it would be an expensive venture to change. If I had frequent experiences that you had, I may be rethinking the AR platform as well. Before you invest in the XCR, I would do a little more testing, experimenting and research before dropping the AR platform.

ROCK6
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:19:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CATFISH25:
AR's all the way, simple , easy to fix, parts avail. the trick is to buy Colts, or at the very least a colt upper assy. there just better, have a few of them & not so much as a hiccup. they cost more but their worth it.


LOL at the part in red! They're just better! Can't tell you why. They just are. Trust me. My flawless RRA and someone elses flawless DPMS, or CMMG just aren't as good!
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 8:06:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 8:12:38 AM EDT by pinkmist]
you say the primers got lodged? wouldn't that be ammo issue? I have never experienced issues with the ar15 that could not be fixed quickly( given you have the parts). Just read the rest of the thread. If you don't trust your weapon and feel an ak has an image problem( and no other "assualt" type weapon will do for you) then go with an Battle rifle( m1a,Fal).
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
AR has more spare parts available... I'd get an AK or AR & stick with it... Buy a few extra parts and be done.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Definite selling point for the AR... but again, those catastrophic failures weigh heavily on me. I can get an AK, FAL, Sig, XCR open much easier if something jams up bad due to the ARs buffer tube and the chance the BCG can lock partially back and bind everything up. This is the ONE thing that really worries me about the AR system.


Link Posted: 9/7/2010 8:37:33 AM EDT
Thanks Batman , I was wondering if a butt stock hit would help clear it when OP posted .Never had it happen to me so its good to know what works .
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:52:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:54:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Hawk_308:
Thanks Batman , I was wondering if a butt stock hit would help clear it when OP posted .Never had it happen to me so its good to know what works .


Actually that was one of the things I did to no avail... might not have done it hard enough. With an M4 stock I was afraid of breaking it. With an A2 stock I would have been less concerned.


I collapsed it all the way first, but I did smack it pretty hard. It came loose on the first try all three times. I was pulling pretty hard on the charging handle as well.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:11:06 PM EDT
DPMS sells a receiver rug to keep a blown primer from locking up the trigger.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:30:40 PM EDT
I own many AR's and love them all, but my XCR(soon to be SBR'd/Suppressed) is my goto gun for SHTF.

The XCR is a fantastic, under-rated weapon and an absolute joy to shoot. JMHO
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 7:52:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Lemme guess, you were ordering caliber conversions, right?

Nope. Both of mine were 5.56 models. All I wanted was some spares springs, firing pin, ejector/extractor, etc.

They are great rifles, don't get me wrong. I just can't see owning a rifle I can't get parts for.
Only one company sells the parts, and they gave me the run-around for 6 months. I'm done with them.
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