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Posted: 9/1/2010 7:48:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 7:50:54 PM EDT by czechsix]
One of the biggest losses was the killing off of the old Civil Defense system - at one time, it had it all. Training, supplies, shelter, bunkers etc. Then it died off due to lack of funding, and was replaced years later by the Department of Homeland Security, which has come no where near the accomplishments of the CD system. The other thing is training, and giving folks some real knowledge instead of the pap the media puts out.

There's a DHS site I came across that's actively looking for ideas, and one post that's got it right: http://preparedness.ideascale.com/a/...nFilter=active

Please throw Shane a yes vote, let's get this idea in front of their noses - the more votes it gets, the higher the chance it'll make it to someone that'll listen. Feel free to crosspost this too, let's get the word out. I'm tired of this do nothing system, "all anyone needs is a 72hour kit", etc. If you're serious about survival, then you know solo survival doesn't work that well. Hell, if we get even 10% of the citizens on board with a decent preparedness concept we'd be 100% better off.

http://preparedness.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Teach-Practical-Family-Nuclear-Civil-Defense-Strategies-and-Tactics.../74577-9416
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 7:55:53 PM EDT
Done.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 9:56:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2010 9:58:10 AM EDT by czechsix]
Thanks...109 views and one person other than me takes the time to go vote? (BTW, thanks Low!)

This goes directly to DHS and FEMA, and to boot getting a serious discussion going on THEIR site, at the least exposes them to public pressure. There are other suggestions on there, with some good ones, but the highest ranked one right now suggests getting the bureaucrats trained more. That's not worked in the past, we need to start at the bottom and get the majority of the civvies trained first.

Grass roots it folks!

Either that or I guess paracord is more sexy.....
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:09:31 AM EDT
Done!
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:10:27 AM EDT
Done.

Link forwarded to others in my "group" - they will be good for a few more votes as well.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:20:08 AM EDT
Done, signed up , & voted.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:36:25 AM EDT
Done
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:37:27 AM EDT
Thanks guys - I don't know about you,but the more I think about this, the more pissed off I get. I hope this lights a fire under those .gov cubicle hamsters, and I hope this goes public in a big way.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:40:29 AM EDT
Tag / reminder to register and vote this up when I get home tonight.
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 5:37:14 PM EDT
spread the word folks, can't hurt to get more involved....
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 6:12:53 PM EDT
Done
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 12:00:08 AM EDT
done
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 2:08:07 AM EDT
done
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 3:04:38 AM EDT
CD died off because it was a lie. Duck and cover? please!
There is a system in place for the "imp[ortant people" to go to, we aint them.
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 10:00:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By finishman2000:
CD died off because it was a lie. Duck and cover? please!
There is a system in place for the "imp[ortant people" to go to, we aint them.


Yeah, exactly, there's a system in place for the "important people". WTF is up with that? In a nation like ours, with the way we were founded....WTF? I'd use the cussing smiley here, but I'm too lazy to dig it up.

I wouldn't exactly call CD a lie - Duck and Cover was a functional aspect, or would you rather have "Look and Gawk"? Training is training, and unless it comes into the public eye, not a whole helluva lot happens. So if there's a system in place for the "important people", why the hell not for the regular citizens, eh? Or is that satisfactory to you? And so what if this isn't called Civil Defense any more - I don't really care what it's called, as long as it's being done.

Squeeky wheel gets the lube, and I think getting a bitchfest going on that DHS site will only help get the ivory tower bureaucrat types to open their eyes.

What're the other options? Media exposure? How? They're against it. Word of mouth? Works for preppers, but not for the population in general.

Remember, the whole point of this is to get the population at large in some sort of prepared mode, not just the "continuity of governement" folks. More prepared folks = more success in dire times, right? Or do you think that being solo is the way to go?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 11:32:07 AM EDT
Voted
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 4:06:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By finishman2000:
CD died off because it was a lie. Duck and cover? please!
There is a system in place for the "imp[ortant people" to go to, we aint them.


Yeah, exactly, there's a system in place for the "important people". WTF is up with that? In a nation like ours, with the way we were founded....WTF? I'd use the cussing smiley here, but I'm too lazy to dig it up.

I wouldn't exactly call CD a lie - Duck and Cover was a functional aspect, or would you rather have "Look and Gawk"? Training is training, and unless it comes into the public eye, not a whole helluva lot happens. So if there's a system in place for the "important people", why the hell not for the regular citizens, eh? Or is that satisfactory to you? And so what if this isn't called Civil Defense any more - I don't really care what it's called, as long as it's being done.

Squeeky wheel gets the lube, and I think getting a bitchfest going on that DHS site will only help get the ivory tower bureaucrat types to open their eyes.

What're the other options? Media exposure? How? They're against it. Word of mouth? Works for preppers, but not for the population in general.

Remember, the whole point of this is to get the population at large in some sort of prepared mode, not just the "continuity of governement" folks. More prepared folks = more success in dire times, right? Or do you think that being solo is the way to go?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Your talking about people who voted in the turd? about people who think health care is a right? that ....nevermind. people are sheep, the powers that be know it. as long as the check comes in all will be well.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 8:59:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2010 9:00:06 AM EDT by czechsix]


Your talking about people who voted in the turd? about people who think health care is a right? that ....nevermind. people are sheep, the powers that be know it. as long as the check comes in all will be well.


Yep, to some extent I am talking about the about 25% of the voters that got him in. And if 1% of them get prepared better, we are still better off, period. That's millions more that are prepped, versus none. You betcha there are a lot of sheep out there, that's why this whole idea to give DHS and FEMA a kick in the rear to get some kind of real training and practicum going is a good idea. Lots of those sheep will do what they're told, and if they're told that they need 72 hours of supplies, 1 week of supplies, 1 month, 6 months...they'll do it. But it's not just the supplies, it's the training too - getting them into some kind of a mindset that stuff like this is survivable, you don't need to go into a blind panic mode. I mean, come on, take a look at the military. Anyone that's been in it knows that while there are some high quality folks, ya also got some real winners in there, and most of those guys are brought up to speed. Some you can't help, but dammit it shouldn't be for lack of trying. If there's enough national pressure, even the argument that "this won't apply to the folks that wait for the checks" gets weakened. Any training, at all, is worthwhile.


Link Posted: 9/4/2010 9:15:53 AM EDT
registered, voted. thanks for the heads up on this. could make for some interesting reading.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 9:23:08 AM EDT
Thanks riceBB - yeah, keep an eye on this, and spread the word too, please.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:07:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By finishman2000:
CD died off because it was a lie. Duck and cover? please!.

Your attitude is widely held by most Americans, that 'duck & cover' and other old Civil Defense tactics for nuke survival is a joke and futile, but that erroneous attitude is exactly what that proposal seeks to correct and why it needs all our support.

Nukes are survivable by the vast majority of those in the blast zone and later on, downwind, from the radioactive fallout IF they had been trained, beforehand, in what to do from that first second of the flash onward.

While we have no illusions the govt will do the right thing getting this Civil Defense training of the public out there, or in-time, our goal in securing the, top voted, #1 ranking from official DHS & FEMA site, out of over 200 submitted ideas, is that we then have a shot at wider media coverage and hopefully even public debates about the need & utility of Civil Defense. Then, with many more individuals getting exposed to it, many will also be prompted to not wait on the govt, but instead act on their own to prep their families, once they discover that it is not futile to do so.

IOW, we are using the credibility of this official soapbox to get the attention of, and talk nuke prepping directly to, more of our fellow Americans.

BTW, if you can't see where that'd ever help you, a major key to enhancing your personal and family security has always been by being surrounded by a buffer of like-minded people doing the right things getting prepped, too. It's this sort of game-changer wake-up call that can begin converting many future potential roaming threats in your neighborhood right now, when disaster strikes, into valuable and useful self-sufficient allies beforehand, earnestly prepping and available then to work with you, instead, in the future.

Not much chance of that, though, in regards to nuke threats, for as long as most still think it's futile to think you can prep for nukes, and that's exactly what my proposal seeks to change.

Many here who did not vote, no doubt, did not go over and read the proposal, so here it is below, the facts in it are indisputable and, just as surely, not knowing them, or worse, thinking you do but are dead wrong about them, could be fatal to you and your family.

Here's my proposal at...

http://preparedness.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Teach-Practical-Family-Nuclear-Civil-Defense-Strategies-and-Tactics.../74577-9416

The disarmament movement for decades has hyped that with nukes; all will die or it will be so bad you'll wish you had. Most have bought into it, now thinking it futile, bordering on lunacy, to try to learn how to survive a nuclear blast and radioactive fallout.

Unfortunately, most govt officials have, too, as they are focused on #1- Interdiction, and #2- COG (Continuity of Govt) for when #1 fails, and have largely ignored #3 - Civil Defense training of the pubic, so they might be better prepared to save themselves from the first second of the flash of a nuke explosion.

For instance, most people now ridicule 'duck & cover', but for the vast majority, not right at 'ground zero' and already gone, the blast wave will be delayed in arriving after the flash, like lightening & thunder, anywhere from a fraction of a second up to 20 seconds, or more.

Today, without 'duck & cover' training, everyone at work, home, and your children at school, will impulsively rush to the nearest windows to see what that 'bright flash' was, just-in-time to be shredded by the glass imploding inward from that delayed blast wave. They'd never been taught that even in the open, just laying flat, reduces by eight-fold the chances of being hit by debris from that brief, 3-second, tornado strength blast.

Then, later, before the radioactive fallout can hurt them, most downwind won't know to move perpendicular away from the drift of the fallout to get out from under it before it even arrives. And, for those who can't evacuate in time, few know how quick & easy it is to throw together an expedient fallout shelter, to safely wait out the radioactive fallout as it loses 99% of its lethal intensity in the first 48 hours.

The greatest tragedy of that horrific loss of life, when nukes come to America, will be that most families had needlessly perished, out of ignorance of how easily they might have avoided becoming additional casualties, all because they erroneously thought it futile to ever try to learn how to beforehand.

The Good News About Nuclear Destruction! at www.ki4u.com/goodnews.htm dispels those deadly myths of nuclear un-survivability, empowering American families to then better survive nukes. For as long as nukes exist, these life-saving insights are essential to every families survival!

And, as a bonus, all our nations' First-Responders would be many magnitudes more effective when there are tens of thousands fewer blast & radiation casualties to later deal with.

The govt should be in the lead getting this information out to all, as it'll save many more lives than doubling the number, and funding, of First-Responders, at a fraction of the cost and time to implement!

Shane Connor
www.ki4u.com


________________________


And, more life-saving facts are over there in the comments section below the proposal, like this one...

________________________


Shane Connor said:

Most think that the bigger the bomb the less good 'duck & cover' will do those in the blast zone. Actually, though, the % is higher that more could be saved then by employing it, compared to a smaller nuke.

For instance, a big military 500 kt nuke airburst (Hiroshima was only about 15 kt) detonated at optimum height to maximize damage, will have an effective blast range radius of out to about 9 miles from ground zero (GZ) where you could get hurt or killed inside there.

The inner 2.2 mile radius from GZ would be total destruction, unlikely anybody above ground would survive the overpressure blast, thermal flash and initial radiation.

If the population were evenly distributed over that 9 mile radius (18 mile diameter) blast zone, there are over 15 times more people outside that 2.2 mile radius than are already gone inside it.

The blast wave will be arriving at that 2.2 radius mark about 8 seconds after the initial flash. Everyone beyond that has over 8 seconds to 'duck & cover' to avoid becoming additional, unnecessary, casualties, from that intense, but brief, 3 second, tornado strength blast, IF they had been trained up beforehand to do so immediately upon indication of the initial flash.

IOW, without that 'duck & cover' training, we risk having as many as 15 times more casualties and fatalities than otherwise!

All of the above, and more, is from the Nuclear Attack Environment Handbook, FEMA - August, 1990 seen here, along with other supporting references...

www.radshelters4u.com

_________________________


It's these facts, presented in that proposal, that we want to have more of our fellow Americans exposed to.

Your vote there, keeping us ranked #1 top & center, and the higher the better, assures it will have an even brighter spotlight directed on them.

Now, check it out for yourself, make an informed decision to vote or not, not based on false assumptions, but read more of the comments here...

http://preparedness.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Teach-Practical-Family-Nuclear-Civil-Defense-Strategies-and-Tactics.../74577-9416

...and see if it couldn't but help to get this information even better dispersed farther & wider with your vote!

- Shane



Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:08:30 AM EDT
IMHO the root of the problem is control/power

CD = most of the power/work in the hands of citizens

FEMA/Homeland Defense/TSA/etc = all powerful .gov

Do you honestly think they'll give it back? There's way too much money to be made on our fear instead of our education.

I'm with you, but do you think "voting" will change it?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:24:46 AM EDT
Done...

K.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:53:09 AM EDT
Civil Defense was n ot a lie, it was underfunded and not enough benefits to the high and mighty. I was a city coordinator in the 70s. It was oriented to the local level and individuals. We were working on identifying local emergency resources, planning the group distribution (scary, I had doubts about it), and home preparidiness, to take as many people out of the loop.
Duck and Cover, yes I did the drills in gradeschool, was stupid, but the only thing they could think of was the WW2 style of bombings. As for terrorism, I was looking into in in the 80s...but no one would listen and the internet was still science and military....LOL I first saw the internet in college in 1971...it was a teletype...and they were looking for hook up with chicks, nerdy chicks, I could do better at a campus mixer.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:09:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind:
Civil Defense was n ot a lie, it was underfunded and not enough benefits to the high and mighty. I was a city coordinator in the 70s. It was oriented to the local level and individuals. We were working on identifying local emergency resources, planning the group distribution (scary, I had doubts about it), and home preparidiness, to take as many people out of the loop.
Duck and Cover, yes I did the drills in gradeschool, was stupid, but the only thing they could think of was the WW2 style of bombings. As for terrorism, I was looking into in in the 80s...but no one would listen and the internet was still science and military....LOL I first saw the internet in college in 1971...it was a teletype...and they were looking for hook up with chicks, nerdy chicks, I could do better at a campus mixer.

Very cool!

So, as a city coordinator, how much of the CD system was volunteer versus paid professional?

Your comment about it being oriented to the local level and individuals....exactly what we need now. Start from the bottom up. I'd really like to hear more about your experiences with CD, what worked and what didn't. I think that sort of information could be very helpful, but unfortunately it's tough to find. If there was still a decent CD effort going on, I'd be one of the folks working with it, no doubt.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:21:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FlatlinesUp:
IMHO the root of the problem is control/power

CD = most of the power/work in the hands of citizens

FEMA/Homeland Defense/TSA/etc = all powerful .gov

Do you honestly think they'll give it back? There's way too much money to be made on our fear instead of our education.

I'm with you, but do you think "voting" will change it?


I agree with you, voting won't likely change them, but this proposal, coming out on top and the spotlight on it
we could get from that, will then get more folks exposed to the need to prep themselves, and that it's not futile.

That's the whole point of this exercise, has been from the beginning.

If any in govt start doing the right things, fine, that's just a bonus then.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:24:15 AM EDT
All volunteer, but it is gone, more centralized now. in the day CD would used armed members to guard against looters. You won;t see that happen now
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:27:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 11:30:07 AM EDT by springermania]
Originally Posted By shaneconnor:
Originally Posted By finishman2000:
CD died off because it was a lie. Duck and cover? please!.

Nukes are survivable by the vast majority of those in the blast zone and later on, downwind, from the radioactive fallout IF they had been trained, beforehand, in what to do from that first second of the flash onward.


Can't say that I agree with that. Are you familiar with the dynamics of a NUDET? The overpressure, the blast itself, the resulting debris from the blast, and gamma rays are all things that will ruin your whole afternoon. I'm all about bringing back a strong CD, but lets not get carried away.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:37:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By springermania:
Originally Posted By shaneconnor:
Originally Posted By finishman2000:
CD died off because it was a lie. Duck and cover? please!.

Nukes are survivable by the vast majority of those in the blast zone and later on, downwind, from the radioactive fallout IF they had been trained, beforehand, in what to do from that first second of the flash onward.


Can't say that I agree with that. Are you familiar with the dynamics of a NUDET? The overpressure, the blast itself, the resulting debris from the blast, and gamma rays are all things that will ruin your whole afternoon. I'm all about bringing back a strong CD, but lets not get carried away.


Most won't agree with it, that much I'll agree with you on and, yes, I am well versed in the dynamics of nuke explosions, as well as mitigating their effects.

I'll say again, the majority of a trained public in the blast zone and downwind from the radioactive fallout can survive nuke effects; overpressure, blast, initial radiation (which only extends out about 1.5 miles for nukes under 1MT) and thermal pulse and, later, radioactive fallout, IF trained to immediately respond correctly from the first second of the initial flash onward.

As an example, I'd pointed out in my first posting...

Most think that the bigger the bomb the less good 'duck & cover' will do those in the blast zone. Actually, though, the % is higher that more could be saved then by employing it, compared to a smaller nuke.

For instance, a big military 500 kt nuke airburst (Hiroshima was only about 15 kt) detonated at optimum height to maximize damage, will have an effective blast range radius of out to about 9 miles from ground zero (GZ) where you could get hurt or killed inside there.

The inner 2.2 mile radius from GZ would be total destruction, unlikely anybody above ground would survive the overpressure blast, thermal flash and initial radiation.

If the population were evenly distributed over that 9 mile radius (18 mile diameter) blast zone, there are over 15 times more people outside that 2.2 mile radius than are already gone inside it.

The blast wave will be arriving at that 2.2 radius mark about 8 seconds after the initial flash. Everyone beyond that has over 8 seconds to 'duck & cover' to avoid becoming additional, unnecessary, casualties, from that intense, but brief, 3 second, tornado strength blast, IF they had been trained up beforehand to do so immediately upon indication of the initial flash.

IOW, without that 'duck & cover' training, we risk having as many as 15 times more casualties and fatalities than otherwise!

All of the above, and more, is from the Nuclear Attack Environment Handbook, FEMA - August, 1990 seen here, along with other supporting references...

www.radshelters4u.com


Bottom Line: With training, amongst those at risk from blast and fallout, the majority can survive it.
Without training, we risk the majority needlessly becoming additional casualties out of ignorance.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:30:48 PM EDT
Done.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:30:31 PM EDT
done, excellent article.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:37:42 PM EDT
You duck and cover for earthquakes and tornado's. A nuke going of nearby isn't going to be much different.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 6:15:27 AM EDT
Well, this just got interesting, we were #1 with 97 votes last night (#2 had 66) and then we got pulled from line-up, nobody can see us ranked there anymore to vote for us atop the most popular or 'HOT' list. It's like we don't exist, never had.

You can't find it anywhere now or vote for it, unless somebody already had saved and gave you the direct link to it here...
http://preparedness.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Teach-Practical-Family-Nuclear-Civil-Defense-Strategies-and-Tactics.../74577-9416

When you go there you find it red flagged as "Pending Review" indicating somebody had clicked the "Report Abuse" button there that's atop all submitted ideas.

No doubt some are feeling abused, or their golden calf being gored, if you read the comments there, truth hurts. Can't say whether it was just one individual with sour grapes, or something more institutional behind it being blacklisted now. Whatever it was, we are for-sure stepping on some big toes, both in the disarmament movement and in the govt, of that I have no doubt. I guess if you're not getting flack, you're not over the target.

Maybe this will get sorted out tomorrow when holiday over and those running this are back to work to review it, but deadline is Friday, the 10th, so keep voting for it there at that link above so we don't lose lead in the meantime.

Never boring, huh?!?

- Shane
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 8:05:33 AM EDT


I does hit it.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:13:36 AM EDT
Talked to FEMA moderators, got 'red flag' off and
now our proposal is back atop the heap again at...
http://preparedness.ideascale.com/

- Shane
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:18:14 AM EDT
Good deal!
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 1:01:25 PM EDT
As mentioned above, I have no illusions the govt will do the right thing getting this Civil Defense training of the public out there, much less in-time.

Our goal in securing the top voted, #1 ranking, at that official DHS & FEMA site, out of over 235 submitted ideas, is that we then have a shot at wider media coverage and hopefully even public debates about the need & utility of Civil Defense.

Then, with many more individuals getting exposed to it, many will also be prompted to not wait on the govt, but instead act on their own to prep their families, once they discover that it is not futile to try to do so.

IOW, we are using the credibility of this official soapbox to get the attention of, and talk effective life-saving nuke training directly to, more of our fellow Americans.

Also, The more Americans are awakened to the need to get prepping for nukes, whether the govt does anything constructive or not, the safer we all are then from most anything.

Nothing more impacts your personal survivability than to be surrounded by a buffer of like-minded people getting busy doing the right things to get prepped themselves.

This civil defense proposal has the potential to wake up millions when we both win this big and then leverage it wider into a national debate, then potentially converting some of your own neighbors from future roaming threats, if left unprepared, into self-sufficient useful allies.

Your vote could count much more locally than you can imagine, as you never know what'll flip the switch on a DGI next door to get prepping themselves.

- Shane
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:34:55 AM EDT
Deadline for voting is tomorrow, Friday the 10th of September, appropriately, or eerily, the day before 9/11 anniversary.

We are currently far ahead ranked #1 with 112 votes out of over 240 other ideas submitted and voted on there, 2nd place has only 69 votes.

Thank you to everyone who voted, it was key to our top ranking and it's very much appreciated!!

For those who had not, you still can and, most importantly now, is also adding an endorsing comment there for the proposal, too. If you've already voted, you can also go back here to do so...

http://preparedness.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Teach-Practical-Family-Nuclear-Civil-Defense-Strategies-and-Tactics.../74577-9416

We next plan a Press Release to leverage this call, at official DHS & FEMA site, for public Civil Defense, into much wider media coverage. Your votes and comments there make it just that much more urgent and credible.

As mentioned earlier, I've no illusions any of this will get the govt doing what they should, or in-time, but am convinced it will have more individual families then exposed to the real utility of nuke prepping and then considering prepping on their own, before we have a nuclear 9/11 or nuclear Katrina here.

Remember, being surrounded by a buffer of more like-minded, formerly DGI's, starting to prep, makes you much safer then. Converting them from future roaming threats into useful allies is key, and you never know what'll spark a neighboring DGI out of their fog. This call for nuclear Civil Defense, coming from a DHS & FEMA official site, could be just the wake-up call for many of them, especially combined with inevitable growing nuke tension news from around the world.

- Shane
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