Relative noob.

I don't think I qualify under either definition. While it's true that 'prepper' was created to fight the connotation of skin-head camo-wearing out-in-the-boonies nutjobs, I think that connotation of 'survivalist' is distorted. Go to any major city and see the people who walk down the street and live in the 'less desirable' neighborhoods. They live 'survivalism' for real, every day. It's a shame that our language gets distorted by the same people who are supposed to be the most adept at using it - the media.

For me, my 'aha' started shortly after Isabel came thru here and I was forced to camp out in my own house. Like everybody else in the neighborhood, we grilled out our frozen meats. I was in better shape than many, including my next door neighbor, who had to come over and borrow a manual can opener. (They only had an electric one. After the second day of no power they decided to get in their car and drive to wherever there was a hotel open.) We were lucky in that we still had good water and the gas hot water heater was still working too. Might not be so lucky next time. It wasn't until mid-2008 that I really started getting my act together on the defensive and financial fronts as well as the logistical.

I think I agree with the concept of 'prepper' being a planner for short term, 'survivalist' being a planner for long term. From my perspective, likelihood of short term SHTF of some sort is pretty high. I've seen ('survived') several (2 hurricanes, 2 tornadoes, 2 lost jobs, being sent home on 9/11 and told not to come back until we tell you it's safe, arab oil embargo, stagflation, divorce, mini-van turned into micro-van by rear-end collision from Mack truck, and others). For long term, like they say on zero hedge, 'on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero'. Since I grew up on a farm, I could live a reasonably comfortable, but hard working, life because I've BTDT. If a long term SHTF came up, I'd be screwed because the family farm is 1500 miles away

At least I got in on one but had to take care of other things.  

IMHO
Prepper = guns are icky
Survivalist = I got into prepping to support my gun addiction.

Prepper = no Red Dawn in video collection
Survivalist = has Red Dawn on bluray, dvd, vhs, beta, the book, book on cd, book on cassette, and book on 8 track.

Prepper = has whatever gun they want
Survivalist = must have AR, AK, SKS, 308 bolt gun for those long shots, 9mm, 45, and 12ga pump; so they can use whatever ammo is available.

Prepper upsets Protus
Survivalist makes Protus feel good

I call myself a survivalist, but I don't really like Red Dawn or bolt guns, so I do not own them.  Now Protus may be upset––'cause I don't have the required stuff to be a survivalist.  Guess I'll have to be a prepper––oh wait Protus is now more upset––'cause I'm a prepper.  








Ya'll let me know how this turns out.

The Rubicon mantra.

I agree with this concept whole-heartedly....have done all, except "Die Gallantly"....trying to put that off for as long as i can...   Does that make me a survivalist ?  I thought so....

This is more of the main issue with me when it comes to "preppers'. There are so many blogs/forums/youtube guys .

Some are full fo good info.some.....well like you said  you may get a laugh out of them.just like here on replies. some are good.some are well...funny.



On the other hand alot of that "bad" info can lead new people off track and maybe for the worse. Problem is when you tell a person that making rifle plates from bath tiles isnt a good idea and get attacked by 100 foaming at the mouth "preppers" it kinda leaves you jaded.  Of ocurse thats just an example of the mindset not so much the topic.

We see it here from time to time. Guy ask a ?, gets 10 good replies then gets on the " well thats not what i asked for...i didnt need someone to tell how to pack it...........im outta here" bandwagon. To me if you want to be told what tohave,do then say so.

I think a ton of new people these days are like that,,tell me, help me, give me a list. But no follow through on testing the kit or theroy.

not enough multicamin this post



i dont think gear or required stuff has much to do with the two "labels". I didnt start out with much. Still dont have what many here have, and im far from perfect in my skill sets in some areas- least i feel that way.



I mostly feel that preppers like said earlier are those who havent been through much, but want to be ready for something.

Like the hurricane example  and tornado example.



I do feel that we are all on different planes/levels.

Maybe because so many came to at similar times ( katrina,election, 2005-2009) that those in that collective felt like it needed to seperate itself from the old?



I mean when i got here in what 04? you never heard the term prepper much...or "greyman"....then somewhere around 06-07 it started popping up all over the place, along with all kinds of new names for things.

It cant be a BOB( bug out bag) it has to be an INCH bag or what is it now, a GOOD bag?

a fak , has to be a ifak, then BOK then VOK..........

I hope you see where im going with that.

Let alone at the same time it was like a survival explosion on the web.

I mean when i started reading/lurking for survival stuff  it was here,frugals since they seemed to be the biggest at the time and not covered in rfid chip conspiracys! Now there is so many "survival" blogs, sites and such its crazy. Let alone many like said earlier that have now turned into self appointed "experts" becuase they have a forum or blog. It's a good thing as well, it is out there for folks to soak up and become educated.



anyway....

i only own red dawn on DVD..it was on sale for 5$........im to cheap for blu ray. im saving up for a kifaru hat..i heard they are on sale for only 50$

At first glance a "Prepper" is more interested in survial and maintaining the ability to stay alive and maintaining a low profile
A"Survialist" at first glace appears to be more motivated by a political agenda and or relishing in the "Victorious shootout"

The net is full of "spoon feed me" types.  I don't mind it so much,  except when they don't say 'please' or 'thank you'.
AND the worst is,  Ask a question,  get several answers,  then the OP argues with the answers!    Survival trolls...worst kind

On the other hand,  a noob might be a little bit misguided,  may ask a feeble question, or be assuming something that won't work and they have their ass handed to them on a platter by a pseudo-expert,  when a softer approach may have been in order.

The crux of it all ,  I think,  stems from having a mature audience (existing long timers in an established foum)  who are then exposed to  "johnny come lately's"  who just jumped on he bandwagon.   Figuring out  which ones are serious in order to help them,  and which ones are internet-commando-couch-potato-heads is the challenge.

The "psuedo-experts" can be flaming pompous asses who don't know Jack,  or they can be really convincing on the surface,  and seem to have the right answers, until you peel back the facade.    

Most often,  I find,  the folks passing themselves off as "internet experts" are simply regurgitators of information they gleaned somewhere else.
Never tested it,  never discussed it in a forum,  never tried to poke holes in it,  just pass it along as gospel (with their own misguided embellishments)  because they have a blog [gasp] or upload to You Tube.

Quoted:

I
How about if we call ourselves Robert Heinlein Men/women?

"A Man should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Robert A. Heinlein


The Rubicon mantra.

I agree with this concept whole-heartedly....have done all, except "Die Gallantly"....trying to put that off for as long as i can... Does that make me a survivalist ? I thought so....

No ship time and and still alive much to other people's chagrin. I think this is a good thread as I have learned a few things. Going to start a thread, what made you see the light. :)

This thread has changed my life- and my wardrobe. I never KNEW I was supposed to wear Multi cam every where I went. Damn! Now  I have to borrow some from Protus LMAO

Actually this thread has been very good for me. I've engaged in the "assumptions" about the other side of the coin (Preppers) also. Reading these  ridiculous replies (sorry) that a survivalist wears Multicam everywhere and 'wants' TS to HTF and "looks forward to a gunfight". Oh and the new crowd seems to think that if your a survivalist you have a big belt buckle that says "I'm a Survivalist" along with a shirt (multicam of course) that says "Survivalist" and he lives at 187 Survivalist Way.  

I realized just how skewed things have become.

The new crowd came into this with a preconceived (read: idea from the media) notion of what a survivalist was and overwhelmingly it was bad. I stand by my statement that the Prepper is worried more about the social stigma than really surviving. If after being around (even just on the net on forums like this) for a while they can't see through the media bull$hit, well then I think there are bigger problems for these folks.

The same media tells us socialism is good, ob is the messiah, GUNS kill people, etc and MOST of you recognize that. . And yet your ready to lap up their bullshit about survivalists??????

I wonder how many of you have actually MET IN PERSON more than 3 or 4 survivalists? How many of them fit the MEDIA'S portrayal?

I've met literally thousands of like minded folks over the last two plus decades from all over the United States. I met EXACTLY ONE GUY that was dressed in full camo- BDU's then, sorry it was before Multicam so I guess he was out of standard survivalist uniform and all  And that guy was really NOT a survivalist, he was a militia guy trying to play survivalist. Unfortunately the tard thought it was cool to meet up with others at a Shoney's in full camo with camo beret and "militia" patches on everywhere. If another person hadn't recognized me when I walked in, I would have simply walked back out of the restraurant.....  One in literally thousands.

stop the haten' on camo....I wear BDU pants....like 90% the time.....granted they are camo, kaki, blue, OD, gray, brown, ....etc....they're comfy.

I stick to khaki cargo pants/shorts. Just love the pockets.

This is in response to a number of thoughts expressed by others:

Personally, the majority of people I have met, who are interested in this stuff, have been closer to a steriotypical "survivalist" than is comfortable for me.  These folks IMHO, are way to likely to garner attention from the wrong people and organizations.

Survivalist magazines have been mentioned as having been mainstream in the past.  I read them - they WERE NOT MAINSTREAM in any way shape or form.

I think this debate is about more than symantics.    Words mean things and there is a philisophical difference between the prepper and the survivalist.  Understanding / defining the differences allow for a better discussion.

If you really want to assign labels , then there are probably thirty levels between the 72hr prep kit couple and
the hardcore underground shelter off grid tamiflu stocking camo clad weapons specialists .
Although the basic mindset between the extremes is actually quite similar . It's recognizing that there could
be circumstances where you will need to fend for yourself with no outside assistance . The difference between
the levels being the severity and duration of the event you prepare for

great observation......on a scale of 1 to 100....

1 being...... a week with out power.....I'd be comfortable

100 being.......I have a bunker....five years of GTG supplies...and if you get within 200yrds....I can take you out.

I'd probably go about 75.....80.....some where in there.....

Tomato/tomahto.

Survivalists have more MRE's, Preppers have more freeze-dried stuff. Survivalists have a bunker, preppers wish they had a bunker.
Survivalists always process their own deer and make jerky, preppers did it once and it turned out ok, but much prefer to drop it off at the butcher shop and have them make it into 7 kinds of sausage.
Survivalists have their wives pick brass and reload ammo, preppers hide their Wal-mart receipts from their wives.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I like the 1-100 scale idea.
Though 1 should be keeps tank 1/2 full of gas and has food in fridge.
10 could be Has food for a few weeks, knows how to use a baseball bat. Might have rifle but it was grandpa's and thinks there is ammo.
20 is food for a few months, has defensive weapons and ammo. Has an a general idea where to go in a T*t's up scenario. Has friends/family who are also ready to assist.

and on and on to

100 has a converted missile silo/salt mine. Food/Fuel for 5 yrs. Can make own tools, bov is kept in a Faraday room (SP?), cna build a musket for when all other weapon components are lost. Would never read this because he/she/they are so far off the grid the NSA doesn't know they exist! Has digicam underoos. :)

This does seem to be a much more common these days then say a few years ago.

I am definately a prepper then as my wife has no idea how much ammo I have stocked, though I do keep alot of MRE's at house and cache. :)

My daughter told me to add a happy face and the uzi ,

good girl.....

I consder myself a surivalist. I don't have nearly the preps as some, and a lot more than others. I spend time in the woods, at the range and in the garden. I don't spend nearly as much time or money on any of these as I would like for a lack of both. Homesteader is also a term I could identify with and would more closely identify the nature of my preps. However I go into the wilderness survival tangent as well, since I may well not be home if and when TSHTF.

It seems to most in this thread the difference between a prepper and a survivalist is weather you plan to store water or filter it. I think it really falls into 3 catagories based on the ammount of time you are prepared for TSHTF to last. If you think you can store enough potable water to get by you are probably a preper. If you think you can get by with your stored water, and one replacement cartridge for your backpack water filte then you are probably prepper or short term survivalist. If you are looking at having a well dug, spare parts for your Berkey and how to collect rain water from your gutters you probably fall more in line with the true survivalists and or homesteader.

I actually like the distinction made above about homsteaders. A lot of the focus on the board is on surviving in the woods and I think, at least on this board, this tends to be the focus. I think the ability to raise, grow and preserve your own food, repair you home without line power and the hardware store, and actually be comfortable without all the modern convieninces are more long term survival skills that may fall more into a homesteader catagory, then what we typically talk about here. It seems thier is a lot more focus on BOBs and BOVs then on turning dirt by hand and raising chickens. I think a true long term survivalist is more well rounded than the prepper, homesteader or survivorman types

Don't even get me started on guns. To sum that up someone once said most of us would be just fine in 99.9% of senarios with a .38 snubbie a single shot .22 and a 12ga. Arguing that point is hard to do from any realistic standpoint. Preper, Bug Out Guy, Homesteader, Survivalist or what ever label you claim you prbably have the guns beat to death if you hang out here. Ammo is anouther story.

Like Ex's description with the Homesteader addendum. IMHO

Burt Gummer was not a "Prepper"!

unfortunately, "Survivalist" still has a negative connotation that seems to be tied to Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC and The Turner Diaries. some might say Ted Kazincky too... but i've gotta say that i think he just liked blowing shit up and not living near anyone else and while Joe and Jane Sixpack (or Joe and Babs Yuppie) may consider m a "survivalist" i never saw anything to lead me to that conclusion.

i will say that i don't run around proclaiming to be a "survivalist", my truck ain't cammoed. i don't wear BDUs daily... i try to be the gray man and blend in... but i continue to try and improve my odds of surviving whatever may come my way.

i consider myself a Survivalist and not just a Prepper, but i try not to advertise that fact.

That is the key here, to get to the bottom of why the term and the movement around it. It draws a certain type of person. I am not that type and many here are not( least ones i have meet face to face).



Like the level's etc and  the 1-100 deal. We are all at different stages.  This forum hits all of it imho from homestead issues to what pack is best. some do not.





You guys have some great replies and ones that like i have said before are in line with what i feel are the major differences and issues.


i still wanna know why you hold this sterotype...it is exactly why i started this whole thread....there are many that seem to want to keep spreading that BS>

Many posts have said this––it is semantics.  Those of us that became survivalists had to decide what to do with Burt G.?  I'm not like him...I like his rec room though.  After Katrina there were a lot of normal folks that "woke up" to the fact that the 911 system won't take your call in a hurricane.  Then they went though some "oh shit; we gotta DO something."  These people have swallowed the media definition of survivalist and cannot accept association with that definition.  So they are prepers.  

Because I have been into this for a while I have a "whatever" attitude toward the word.  

As TJ has said many times "I am what I am."

Interesting discussion.  I would tend to agree with PA-22 above.

The trouble with the terms prepper and survivalist is that different people have different subjective meanings for them, and the societal connotations are different as well in various places.  The symbology of these terms even as expressed in this thread would require a whole team of semioticians to figure out.

My B/L thought is that if you get ready for what you think is likely to happen, then it is a good thing–– regardless of what term you assign to it.

if you break it down....you prep now to survive later....in that aspect...you are a survivalist.

All survivalist prep....due to the nature of the life style.

Both a "Survivalist" and a "Prepper".....are not just different sides of the same coin....but more the same person viewed from different perspectives of different people.

To most here....I'm a prepper.....to most sheeple.....I'm a survivalist....it is just the perseption of the person doing the description that makes that determination.

Hollywood has painted the picture of the "Survivalist" as being a nut with guns and a bunch of C-rats.....but if you were to explain to the average layperson what you are doing.....they woud look at you the same way.

Now go explain to the average backwoods homesteader....and they would ask you which methods you are using to do whatever....most would look at it as common place....and think you an idiot if you didn't have some supplies set back.

Wether anyone would consider us "Normal".....well...that is completely up to the eye of the beholder......what someone sees as normal....is completely insane to someone else.  

I for one....look to anyone who is preparing for hard times.....to be smarter than the average bear....

Splitting hairs here guys.....

if it was that simple i would have never made this thread LOL.



Im holding my real rant back. only becuase i know it would be counter productive.



Maybe i really should go post this on a  so called " prepper" only forum just so i can drive my point home with thier replies....





I agree with about 98% of what everyone here has posted..again im in this for answers......or else i woulda just posted that PA is just a moo moo wearing poser

Do they come in multi-cam?



 

I hope I am never ever NORMAL. It is funny, I never gve it much thought until this thread. If asked, I would say a prepper but since I have a rain barrel or two, a food producing garden, spare gas, a dangerous black rifle or two plus a few ammo cans full of mags.....

I dont have any digicam....or camo. At all! Serious. NONE... I pulled out what I had but that was 10 inches ago...now down to 7 inches but still....

Protus, I dont know if the term means as much as the intent of the person using it.


Sorry being interupted by my chittlins.

you'll have to ask him.....he cornered the market long ago

Protus, you ask:  i still wanna know why you hold this sterotype...it is exactly why i started this whole thread....there are many that seem to want to keep spreading that BS

My response is that I am not spreading BS, I am sharing my personal experience with people who are "survivalist".  I wish this were not the case, but I have found the stereotype to be accurate.  My guess is that I am not the only one with this experience.

Well i dunno then. I have meet hundreds of people since i started hosting campouts/meets and attending others.

I never considered those that fit the media" sterotype" of what survivalist is, a survivalist. They are alos a small percentage . I have maybe met 1-2 or two that were down right,,odd to be nice. I meet plenty that should be normal but are far from it.



i have question. when did you start into survivalism? Im not attacking im curious,

Protus:  The 1980s for reading, learning, etc.  The 90s for actively prepping to a minor degree.  From 2000 forward, aggressive learning and prepping to the extent financially possible.  I have been in the mode of planning for the end of times type stuff, but realized it was more cost effective and made more sense to plan for the probable than the possible.  I also realized that we have to live within some sort of community.  Self-sufficiency is a pipe dream.  However, thats not to say that being more self sufficient is a bad thing.  I also realized that with age, the physical ability to do the volume of work one can do diminishes.  

My personal goals are to have enough food to serve as a stop gap until gardening can take up the slack.  I am aggressively gardening, and I feel this is the most important survival skill.

Told the wife about this thread on the way back from church. We were talking about how the "prepper" is more concerned about social stigmas and labels than really being prepared. She made the same point you did. She's been around me for over 12 years and has also attended her share of Preparedness Expo's as well as internet get togethers, campouts, etc.


I can't agree with the "it's just semantics" comments. As you can see it causing a REAL division. Even if this thread you see a lot of the stereotypes. Divide and conquer is the enemy's favorite game plan.

We should want the headline to read

Cops arrive too late to save wolf from sheepdog

Most of us know that the article will read

Baa, baaa sheepdog is baaaad ......

Doh....um, well I wuz trying to be generic

yet they throw those of us that dont cling to that prepper title under the bus at every chance..... that is why i feel it is way past a semantics issue.

I can look  up and post the many new "prepper" news articles up , and they will go into the  " were normal, they are crazy song and dance..".

There is a sect that wants a clear division, and besides the negative context of what the media and left protrays the "survivalist"  seems to be the only reason ive seen posted that makes any  sense.

Protus, yer a Boyscout, admit it.

Boyscout motto: Be prepared.  

Anything else is redundant.

And all the people say Amen

Prepper is to Survivalist, what Burger-Flipper is to McDonald's Employee.

What's in a label?

Let me Muddy the waters just a little.....

Let's say that "serious" Preppers are just Survivalists with a more PC name?  
(Which TJ correctly pointed out will still be villified by the left)

I used the term Serious Prepper,   because I think we now also have pseudo-preppers  and/or  Prepper-lites.

We might even have Prepper-wanna-be's?

What is a white-collar urban professional who ran out and bought some cool gear, a 10-22 and 5 gallon pail of storable food?
Prepper-Lite?

As with a fad,  or anything that comes into vogue, it becomes watered down.

Are we entering an era where it's COOL to be a prepper?

I don't really consider myself either. I consider what I do self-reliance and living my life free from interference and with as little dependence as I can. I'm not "preparing" for a "survival" situation. I'm focused on living my life as sustainably and self-reliantly as possible.

Kind of a libertarian hippy chick with guns, I guess.

How about thrivalist?

only made it to life.....then quite to play foot ball and back pack on my weekends

and yes,,,bsa is what got me playing "survivor man"  in the 80's

I agree with a lot of what is said here. I'm somewhere in between. The one thing I disagree about, is someone's attempts to survive while maintaining a iota of "the life before" (ie. Solar Chargers for Ipod, Solar Power to watch TV, etc) somehow makes someone silly. In my opinion, if you prepare enough for interim and are able to keep the power on to watch your DVDs and play on your computer when the power has been out for 6 months, GOOD FOR YOU! I know I'm working to get to that stage.

I guess maybe I misinterpreted your post, but there's nothing wrong with surviving in comfort. For instance, I have a solar panel dedicated to charging small electronics, because I keep a literal library of survival PDFs on it. Much more than I could ever print out realistically. I've learned how to farm (well am learning to) and the ability to call upon a document should I ever NEED it is pretty important to me. Maybe not vital, but I'd like the ability to do so. I've also put a lot into a solar setup (and have used it twice. I'm able to power a small window AC, my fridge, computer.)

I dont think people should  sleep under a slef made shelter when the power is out for 3 days or eat grubs.



The issue like you pointed out is the attempts to think that they can maintain that level of comfort for the duration of a longer term event.



For example. As i have seen this else where.

" what deep freeze for shtf"

At 1st i was going wtf? a deep freeze. But then due to my own "shtf" as some would call or "survival situtation"..i wish i had power and deep freeze back in 04'.  I did not. So i had to adpat. My planning on how to deal with power loss after that changed.

For me it was cheaper and easier to revert back into "camping" mode.

I dont look down on those that chose to live with their comforts during shortterm failures. It would be stupid to not prep for them. The issue is when you see a thread or a group of people being led into that way of planning becuase of its ease.

"Oh i'll go get two deep cells, a small harbor freight genny, a charge controller, harbor frieght solar kit and an invertor becuase now i have power for my fan, my mini DVD player and my deep freeze ,becuase i store alot of my shtf food in there...."

Now. In my mind i go HMMMMMmm. Few 100$ into a tempary  power solutions vs a few 100$ into food that would not need those resources.

Are you following me ?

Well imagine steeping into a thread like that and making that example, about why frozen TV dinners, steak and hot wings arent the best foods to supply for an event due to how much resources it takes to keep them fresh vs shelf stable foods that dont?!

I have and the backlash was crazy. Not just for bucking the idea but becuase they cant afford all those buckets of grains or #10 cans..they already have the deep freeze after all...is common type of retort to it.( but they can afford all the stuff to run it...)



TJ said long ago that surviving in comfort wins every time. I agree...but it seems, just like the TVshow colony many new folks cling to and spend to many resources trying to keep the comforts before getting some basics set aside. Like putting the horse before the carrige. Lets have temporary power...but no food......





imho if your learning like what you talking about, in the long term you wont need those PDF's and good for you on self teaching... IMHO way to many people are using such things as a cructh ( even if printed out) for a substitue for doing.

" oh damn henry cut his leg,.,,shit get the red binder....ok ,,,ok..page 56..shit,,goto page 87...damn henery stay with me man,,,,,,fucking pages are stickingtogether from all this blood.....henry why are you so pale....."



that aint the time to be trying to look things up

I have met folks that could talk your head off about any shtf subject. sure they have the binders, the usb drives, external hard drives and back ups to those... and they have read everyone last one.....but the have never tried or done what they have archived!



I actaully like the idea of usb's for shortterm file docs for importnat papers etc for a grab go emergencys. not for long term events. I laugh when i see a few usb's in a BOB..but wheres the resources to get that info....espeically when the BOB is set up for wilderness use .