I'd hate to think that in a shtf situation, we suddenly turn communist or socialist and have to give up all we have for the good of the sheeple. That isn't to say that sheeple won't attempt to do some "collecting" themselves but I can't see the gov doing that unless it was a really long crisis. So our family is going with a 30/360 strategy. We make sure we have 30 days food at our home which is really not difficult at all to collect or store and then defend our homes like any good american should.

If things go longer than 30 days, or if things get really out of control, we consider making a move to our hunting place in the country. It is nothing more than a small cabin but it is on acerage so if we had to, we could make the move. Would be hard to leave our home but at least we have an option. I

One aspect of "prepping" is that you are buying food, often in quantity, and looking for foods that are on sale.

Food prices will rise this year––it's been in the news for several months.  If I get 6 cans of beans for $5 today I will likely get 4 or 3 by the end of the year.

Don't base your preps on works of fiction.

Period.

I like a good survival book/movie etc. But I don't base my preparations on what an author presents in a work of fiction. I don't.

Some times they present good ideas worth thinking about. Some times they present ideas that have passed through the filter of the author, and he/she can present a situation how they want it presented, and perhaps without all the facts present.

The truth is, the prepared will rule the day post S hitting the fan. Period. You can speculate, postulate, trivialize, and fictionalize. The prepared will be better off. Period.

And those who control production and distribution will be better off than anyone.

"Bbbbbut the latest author (book, movie, or whatever) said that ..." Read good books, and there is nothing wrong with thinking about situations that are presented... But base your preps on knowledge and common sense... Not on works of fiction.

Nope and it is not hoarding! It is having a little common sense!!!

One thing I did read in works of fiction that I wonder if is true.  

Can you actually cook food (even rice and beans and other not-overly aromatic foods), even in a home, not venting to the outside, without being detected?  The stories implied that _really_ hungry people get really good at smelling food, and cooking tends to increase whatever aromas are released.

So can you cook a pot of rice or beans without everyone being able to detect that outside your home without taking extra (or even extreme) measures to prevent the smell from getting out?

I might be wrong about this but didnt the commies do this after the revolution in 1917?? And then during WWII? I remember reading about this someplace.

I think it is important to have a stockpile of food. But I am not stupid enough to think the govt, armed gangs, etc would not try to take everyones stuff. Even if your in the boonies! I can see it happen. Remember that food, water, weapons will equal power and control.

Maybe I am wrong. But in a postman situation, I would bet that a lot of somebodys will to try and find you and take your food!

In a urban situation, people will go house to house looting any and all food they can find!

My thoughts:

First off, it's not hoarding if you buy it now. If you are smart, all your food will be hidden away so that when they come for it you can say "Well, all I have left is this can of wax beans and a few cup fulls of elbow macaroni......". You would be smarter still to keep entirely to yourself. If you can't keep to yourself, you should be going to great lengths to either hide why you aren't losing weight and complaining that you are hungry/asking others for food to keep the ruse up. I'd be talking to my neighbor and saying: "You know, Bob, I never thought I'd see the day where I'd eat a skunk to stay alive, but I've caught two this week and been fed.. There's a spot just over yonder by the creek that seems like a great spot for them. I've been baiting with......." etc. etc.

I used to have a similar mindset. I used to think that after a month or so there would be a real separation of the Rice from the Rat Shit in society and that people like me would be the ones who survived. It was a myopic way of thinking, because there would be a lot of survivors who made it not because they were smart before the Event, but because they got smart AFTER the event or were simply willing to do things that the less prepared is society weren't to get by. For some that would be eating unpalatable foods, for others that would mean killing an entire family for a box of mac'n'cheese. It will be those who are able, and willing, to adapt or make that leap that survive SHTF.

Put it this way..... The rapists and murderers who did the worst things inside the Superdome are still alive and free..... Think about that.

I believe your argument isn't based solely on stocking food. This is an argument of how long can you sustain your life by yourself without a community so to speak.

ie: "What's the point of stockpiling food/water/fuel/meds/beaverpelts/nekkidwimmen when after a month the gangs are coming anyway?!" Just put in anything you have more of in that sentence.

In the long term events, it will be impossible to do it alone. One month, maybe but not much more. The key here is to have a group of like-minded individuals with similar preps.  If everyone comes together, and provided they themselves have significant preps plus preps for the group as a whole, then your chances of not only surviving are better but you may even thrive through an event. If you have enough people that you can assign different daily tasks out, you lessen the chance of fatigue, you cover your bases, and you'll have an all-around better morale.

Ex: You're a one man show. you have to make all your food for the day, provide security for yourself while doing it, fix repair things in between meals, sleep(while providing security) etc etc.

So the more people you add to that scenario, the easier it gets. You have people providing security(maybe just a guy on the roof with a pair of binos), you have someone preparing the food, you have someone listening to the radio, another person maintains the inventory, another person sleeps and you get the point.


This is of course unlikely to happen for the majority of us here but I think it should be strived for.

Assuming that there's even the faint glimmer of hope that normality might be established someday, you might consider trading a cow for say, 10 big screen TVs, a couple ATVs, and maybe a boat?  All stuff that the non-prepared probably spent their money on, instead of preps...make it plain to them such that MAYBE it occurs to them that being unprepared is going to be painful. The possibility of going hungry is so remote to most folk that it isn't "real" because there's always been someone to bail them out...

If faced with the possibility of losing their shiny goodies to eat, maybe it'd be a helpful slap upside the head?

I'm probably just being too optimistic here.

I just don't know WTF I'd do in my current locale, should there be a sustained SHTF. We have several months worth of food, med supplies, etc.  I don't know most of my neighbors, and most of them are elderly/older. My immediate neighbors on the left and right probably wouldn't be too useful; certainly I don't see them being able to help with security much (folk on left are seriously anti-gun and Obamabots, crazy farmer type lady on right MIGHT be marginally useful, but it's iffy). Neighbors on opposite side of street are a big unknown - older couple with teenager/early 20's kids, but I don't know them very well. The guy is a govt employee who looks like Drew Carey  (I know, don't judge a book by it's cover, but he doesn't strike me as useful), but who really knows? They are quite resistant to my feeble attempts to chit chat with them, so...though they've helped dig us out of some bad snow so they can't be all that bad, can they?

My point being that yes, if one want's to make it past the short term SHTF, you're going to need to organize your local neighbors into helping each other. With the typical suburban mindset being what it is, everyone not knowing each other and all, it's a handicap to be sure. I don't know who'd end up being leader of the block as it were. I'm probably the best prepped, but I'm not a leader type. I bet I'm the best armed, though I can't quite arm everyone even if I were able to, I doubt that I would trust them that far.

You all bring up a good point...but why does it have to be neighbors to add numbers to "your" group?  Ive always imagined having family and friends meet at the most defensible and sustainable house and surviving that way. Yes we know SHTF is always going to bring you into the unknown so some of those family/friends may not make it, but I would have to guess a large majority would (unless the major disaster was in your immediate area).  Do you all have similar ideas or contingent plans in place?

As for myself, I only have one friend, and thankfully he'd be an asset if he showed up here. His AO is pretty much going to fall to the criminal element (being in the outskirts of a major city full of entitlement types).  But I'm not fooling myself that even if he made it here, that 2 armed males and 2 unskilled females plus a toddler can secure my property, let alone a neighborhood.

Relatives? Nearest is 2 hours away in the DC suburbs, and are pretty much sheeple - no guns or gun skills, all are elderly (60+). The rest of the relatives are a) scattered all over the East Coast, b) sheeple w/o preps, and c) I don't envision them showing up here.

Well, unless your family lives close by, chances are that you'll have a lot more neighbors in the immediate vicinity of your home than family.  Also, consider that numbers are a significant strength in a crisis when it comes to protection and getting things done in general.  Sanitation, security, first aid, and all sorts of other logistical needs require manpower.  So it's good to get to know your neighbors and be on good terms with them where possible.

Food preps aren't just for the collapse of civilization. Right now, due to my income taking a huge hit, I'm really glad I prep, it's making my food costs much lower and making it possible to cut them to pretty much zero if I wanted to.
Say a bad storm is coming through and the stores are all sold out before I can get there for whatever reason, or maybe it's a family member who couldn't? Then it's several days before additional supplies make it in due to weather conditions and the roads being messed up. Gosh, I'm glad I have plenty of food around to keep my family and I fed and comfy.
Riots in Hartford spreading to my town? I am not taking chances on going to the store until things settle down, I'm just fine staying here for a while, or packing up food and such and heading to another location to consolidate people. Not everyone in my family preps, but my preps take them into account even while I work to get them on board. So far I've been successful with one out of three "families" and that brought a lot more resources to the table.

Serious breakdown of society in a lasting situation? I plan to be part of or leading one of those groups that has things together and is willing to help others if they're willing to work to help themselves. If you just want to take what we have then you better count on getting hurt. I can't be sure my group would win but I am sure there will be fewer of yours when it's over. I guess that's probably a net gain for those kinds of folks, fewer mouths and more supplies.

I guess thats where I maybe differ from most folks on here is that most of my family and friends are at the most 45 mins away and Ive got more than enough to sustain most of them for a few months...

I've got quite a bit of relatives within 45 minutes as well, and they can each sustain their own immediate family for a few months or more.  On the other hand, my immediate neighbors, who have similar food preps, are better armed than most of my relatives.

Well, you would run into the risk of other people having problems with your preps only if you have the preps to begin with....

Choosing to prepare now leaves you options later.

or the risk of depending on the "community" to provide me with the "fair share" of my own food.

It would be a sad day to have to make hidden caches in your own home because .gov doesn't want you to provide for yourself.

Sorry, "Hoarding" is not the proper term.





Though the definition just means "making a secret supply" or "collecting" how people use the term has a strong implication that by keeping something, someone else is deprived.  The term carries ethical connotations that simply do not apply when there is plenty.





Until SHTF actually happens, and things are obtained THEN, what I do keeps nothing from anybody as there is still plenty to go around.  If what I purchase actually affects prices to a significant degree (last year's ammo buying is an example) is sort of hording.





However, if it's something that was piled up in advanced, it's not really fair to call it hoarding.  Buying all the candles at Wal-Mart just before a hurricane is hoarding.  Buying candles in the off season beforehand is not.





That said, if my supplies are threatened by failure of the 4th and 14th amendments, the 2nd amendment will be practiced.

 

I think that it would be foolish to think that if things got that bad that you and your family could defend your home against the local .gov or a decent sized gang of looters. I'm not being chicken, just realistic. There are times in your life when you cannot win by force without loosing more than you are willing to loose. I'm not willing to risk my children's life to prevent thirty dudes with shotguns who would eventually burn me out from looting my home. Given this, I think the best defense would be to have several near by caches buried so that if confronted by a group that you felt would overwhelm you anyway, you'd live to eat another day after they did their thing and left. This is assuming you had preps to begin with which I don't. Survival is about living to see the next day, and taking care of your family not becoming a Martyr over a bucket of beans. Don't get me wrong, I'm trained, motivated and equipped to defend my home better than 99.99997% of people out there, I'm just not willing to risk my children for something I can hide off site, but close by.

Folks,  I hate to be this blunt,  but I think this thread needs a reality check.

If it's .gov coming for your supplies,  well,  they could have broken down into being "Bad dudes" too,  
and only representing themselves as  "here to help".  
Governments and armies the world over, for thousands of years,  have looted and plundered.

If a month or three passes,  and gangs and marauders come to your place for the food,
they are going to shoot you in the head,  rape your wife and kids,
take your cookies, supplies,  firearms and ammo. (and anything else that's not nailed down).

Don't think so?    These are professional criminals,  street thugs,  bad guys.  
Rule of law is gone, it's DisneyLand for them.
Right now they commit crimes, murders, rapes, sell drugs.....what will they do if there is NO order at all?

You're going to converse with them?   Barter?   Hand over the supplies of your choosing?  NOT.
They are going to TAKE what they want,  by force,  and you won't have a chance to utter a word.
BANG,  your dead.

If the SHTF as badly as we are speaking of in this thread,
you better do a major paradigm shift,  I mean fast.
If Gangs are marauding,  then it's kill or be killed time.

If it's an overwhelming force of bad dudes at your door, sorry,  you stayed too long,  should've Bugged Out.
Darwin's a bitch.

Have a plan to dispatch every SOB who comes sniffing around,  not saying automatically cap them at 300 yards,
but have a plan to deal with them.   It might mean running away,  or it might mean signaling the neighbors for a fight.

What your not going to be,  is in a position to discuss, barter, or negotiate.
That world will be long gone if it comes down to this.

If 30 dudes with shotguns showed up on your doorstep and were willing to take what you had to further their survival and inhibit yours, I doubt they would leave you alive to worry about later in some other redemption situation.  

And I hope I never lose more than im willing to lose loose either.

This

Agree 1000%!! You are not hording. Keeping your gear and your food to yourself or family is most impotent. If your town does the whole everyone has to chip food in then do it give them a few cans of food about 5 would be enough and I don't care if thats tuna from 1990 just something to get them off your back. If they are going to give food out each week to the people go and take the food they give out "You did give food right!" Take that food that was given and use it to trade for ammo, guns, gold and other items!

Work with the people to not make yourself stand out. Then use what they give you for things you need or want. Is it wrong? I guess thats up to you! I don't feel it's wrong at all! Shit do you know how many people I know that spend good money on worthless shit! I know a person on welfare they have been for the past 10+ years and they have a new 2010 or 2011 truck a long with two 2009 ATV's and a 2008 20 foot ski boat along with hunting land in MO with a cabin. Also a few rifles,shotguns and pistols! I was also told they owned land in TX about 1,000+ acres near the border.

Rice and beans, yes, Kimchi, no.  But seriously, do you really expect that everybody will have no food?  I mean, in the city near me, they are a number of food product silos likely containing peanuts, flour or soy and  tanks of cooking oil.  There are rail cars passing through carrying cottonseed oil, soy, HFCS, sugar, etc.  At any time there are lots of trucks delivering chicken feed to farmers, and Tysons has a big feed mill near here.  The local feed store has bins of corn and wheat, and pallets of feed.  Even the local hardware stores have 50 lb sacks of corn,  So even if most americans are starving, it's unlikely that most urban/suburbian areasmare totally without food of any sort.  

If you don;t believe this, within a week, anyone strong enough to be a threat is a prepper, looter of preppers, or a canable.

If you accept this, those eating 600 calories of food a day are still proball doing some minimal amount of cooking.

And if it reaches the point where looter wonder through you house unchallanged, I'm not sure what to say.  Prior to them entering your house the preps shouldn't have put you at a disadvantage (unless UPS left 12 cases with WHEAT and FAMILY HOME STORAGE sitting in your driveway).  Even if you are LDS, the risk is from being known to be LDS, not actually having the stores,

I think the value of this conversation comes in the form of community( this reminds me of the movie defiance). You cannot protect what you have very well( being on watch 24-7 will wear you down quick; more over if your the only one in your family that is best suited for the job) a community will be vitial to survival. So if you had a community of like minded people you will survive( however it will make you a target and must be prepared for it). Solo bug in will generate issues, bug out will create issues, a exsisting community of like minded people before SHTF is the only sure bet.

SHTF is not EOTWAWKI per se. I got laid off from work 2 months ago and have used my preps. My son got laid of last year and is only now getting a job that makes more than minimum wage (hopefully). no, we prep for the unknown so it is not a waste of time. if your scenario plays out in our future we will adjust and be happy to help the community ( though maby we'll hold back a little )

Hoarding?

or stockpiling?

Ops

I think more of doing it now when I'm making good money, and using the stuff sometime later when I'm not.
Buying lots of long term storage food lately.
M

Skunk had it pretty solid.  There are a few things I'd like to add

Hoarding, stockpiling, prepping, none of those labels matter.  What matters is the label the city councilman with the mob at his back can convince said mob is correct.  We can call it anything we want barricaded inside our houses, but it won't matter to the jeering pols and their crowds surrounding us.  Having the moral high ground is great and all, but give me the actual (fortified) elevated terrain over that any day.

I've spoken to NG guys who've said flat out that, in the event of a prolonged food shortage, that they'd see nothing wrong with rousting out hoarders and taking their food for the common good.  And when I pressed with the notion that I've been saving right along while other squander, so how is that hoarding, I got a shrug.  

The common perception is, no matter how or when you acquired the food, if you hold out when other people (particularly them) need it, you're a hoarder.  That's the reality we have to deal with.  That's the reality that's going to lead to deputies searching our houses and barns for food five days after the order to turn everything in is issued.  That's the reality we'll have to get our heads around when we answer the door.  

Do we hand it over or do we risk being labeled "hoarder" with all the penalties that term will net us?

I honestly don't know how I'll answer the door, if that eventuality comes to pass.  And, believe me, I have considered it.  There was a day I laughed as loud as anybody when discussion turned to the possibility.  But with the crowd we've got running things now?  I wouldn't wager a shiny new dime that they wouldn't try it if they needed a new boogie man, or a new weapon against the same boogie man (conservative, tea party, patriot, militia, whatever they're calling us that week)

But neither will I let that possibility stop me from preparing for events other than that.  Currently, my big money is on the economy going south 1930's style, and commodities and meaningful money getting hard to come by.  I'm prepping to cushion rather than replace, but with the notion that it might come to that in the end.  And the notion that some piss pot local strongman might come to take my shit isn't a significant enough possibility to stop me.

Oh, and as an aside, if 30 non-.gov guys show up with shotguns?  If you do decide to fight, you probably don't need to kill more than 4 or 5.  Take down the big dogs and the little dogs will scurry away.  If they're .gov, you've already lost when they show up at the door.

Well put.



 

I am not sure I buy the entire line of reasoning that the government will come and sieze your food stockpile in an emergency.

Why do I feel this way?

Well let us first distinguish the government siezing grocery stores and the like during local emergencies to both safe guard from looting and to distribute as needed.  This already happens, and I think it is important to note the distinction between this and search private homes for food supplies.  True I'm sure the hardcore libertarians will scream about private property rights, and I agree, but this situation isn't what we are discussing here.

The worry hear is "during a long term food shortage" the government will leave no stone unturned so to speak.  Wait what?  Long term food shortage?  

The problem with these scenarios it requires three near mutually exclusive events to be present.  The first is that there is a long term food shortage that does not also result in a major loss of life, destruction of infrastructure and national transportation assets to get food from else where.  The second is that with all of these handicaps, that the government remains functioning.  Third is that there is such a signficant portion of the population left alive after the initial event to require being fed.

The reality is the only plausible way there would be such a lack of food is a TEOTWAWKI scenario like nuclear warfare or something approximating nuclear warfare like Yellowstone blowing or a meteor impact.  If THAT even happens to the point that private confiscations are required, I submit that there will not be a functioning government left, and even if there was, there will not be the assets to carryout individual searches and siezures of private stockpiles effectively.

If there is no food, that probably means there is no infrastructure and no government left.

If the government is left, it probably means there is infrastructure left, and sufficient assets to get and move bulk foodstuffs from non-private sources.  Locally it may happen, however unlikely, for local disasters, but that also means you'll probably have options to get fed yourself and you will ultimately get compensation for what they took after the disaster is over.

Private confiscation will not happen.  You will not even yield enough food to sustain the confiscation teams much less solve the problem - which means this move, if it were to happen is a last desperate move - meaning the government is kaput in all regards.

So we are back to a mob, even if one has a badge.  I am sticking with the shoot the fuckers strategy, because if it gets *that* bad I'm dead without my food, and the government will simply not exist so I'm not worried about being immediately arrested etc (assuming you win the firefight).

In short, the only real worry is a mob of the starving.  Shoot a few, the rest will move on, or eat the dead.

Guys, in the post SHTF world, in a prolonged situation, past a few months, ANYONE still alive will be suspect of storing food.  Make no mistake, there will be raiding parties (gangs, or whatever) that will shake down anyone they find.  They will go from home to home.  If they find anyone inside a home still alive, they will want their food and probably execute the residents after taking their foods (or before).  Its that hard, cold attitude that will keep the non-preppers alive.  Its the ONLY way that non-preppers will stay alive.

And if the preppers are working with their neighbors those non-prepper mobs aren't going to last for very long.

Agreed.
This is why I have a BOL, and I think that any long term survivability
depends on not being in a urban/suburban AO.  You don't have enough
ammo or asswipe to hold off everyone, regardless of your numbers.

"the greater good" is a term as wholly mutable as "hoarder".  We've already seen that all it takes is one guy with charisma and a mess of mental deficient strong arm types to turn the whole world upside down.

The danger of "Community organizer" types is that you aren't just dealing with a rambling mob who can be chased away.  These types are likely to send out the raiding parties well before they're really needed, just to gin up  community outrage and take the spotlight off of themselves.  Who's gonna look at political malfeasance when they're hungry and there's a hoarder with tons of food just down the road?  And if they send troops or cops, you won't get away with running them off.  Cops have a particular kind of hate for people who kill cops, even beyond that reserved for killers of citizens.

agreed.

I'm only "hoarding" old copies of my favorite periodicals.  Everything else is stored properly/stockpiled.

I appreciate you bringing up a good point:  perception matters.

If you establish good relations with your neighbors long before crisis strikes, and continue being "helpful" to your neighbors once the stuff has hit the fan, it will go a long way towards making you one of the "good guys" in the community.  On the other hand, if you immediate hole up in your house like a crotchety hermit the moment things go bad, it will be no wonder when people begin viewing you as a "selfish hoarder".

You want to be viewed by your neighbors as a "good guy" and "friend".  A little generosity here and there when things are bad could be a type of insurance.

TXLewis was spot on! when the masses are hungry, they will come for the prepped! it will be the ' he has so much and we have none' crowd to start

Then we will be ' hoarders'

Then will be 'taken for re education" for the good of all, out food will be given to ' society"

Heck, we punish people for just making 'to much ' money now!

Wanna bet what you will look like if you had the gaul to prep while others bought big screen TV;s?

Why it will be down right un American to have stores up food when others have not!

Me, I am going to look down troden and hungry when among the sheep masses,

Then in for the night with a good meal and a bourbon!

If you want to take it, I can only promise that it will be the most expensive freaken meal you ever ate

+1

I could go so far in to this but I'd be getting this post locked because of COC

If it gets that bad, cops will probably be those who are friends of the community organizer. The old rank and file will be looking after their family. Confiscating personally owned food will be labor intensive and costly. A few "official" raiding parties get taken out and there won't be replacements. At this point government will be a shaky proposition and not in a strong position. Society will start devolving like Ferfal talks about in Argentina. Life will be harder and the tough will survive.

Our laws have gone from the sensible to the ridiculous. When times get tough we will bear more of the responsibiliy for our own welfare. Police will be busy protecting pols and infrastructure. Community, even city blocks, will have to be more self reliant. We will gradually return to a structure that is sustainable and along the lines of how the Constitution was intended.

I recall one technique to cook rice is to put boiling water in a wide-mouth thermos and put the rice in, and let it sit all day.  I am not sure about using it for beans, but perhaps if you boiled them for 10 minutes first (to kill the aflatoxin) and then put the beans and boiling water into the Thermos, letting them sit all day might work.

I would prefer a stainless steel Thermos to a glass one; they're pretty fragile really.

Archived Thread on Thermal Cooking
Yup, that would be one way to minimize your energy requirement and food aroma when cooking.  OTOH grilling steaks on the BBQ when no one else around you has any food probably isn't the greatest idea.

I have two cans of beans and franks and a can of raviolis.. that is about it

We have a winner...

I agree with you completely. (Except I do have some family that aren't going to get a warm welcome from me).

Bartering is not an option...

Once they are hungry again... they won't be coming to trade "supplies" for food... they will be coming to trade bullets for food... because they now know you are well off and had food to spare... so you must have alot of it...

The bullets they will be trading will be exchanged at a minimum rate of 800 FPS

I don't like that exchange rate... So bartering is NOT an option.

Get what you need now while its easy to obtain it...
What If's are what if's...

What if nothing ever happens and you simply run out of food and wish you didn't have to leave your safe and well defended home... You would wish you could exchange your now useless 100 dollar bill for 100 dollars worth of Flour...