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Posted: 2/24/2023 11:09:58 PM EDT
Riflemen,
Case annealing 308 Winchester, once-fired Lapua brass, …
I shoot 44.0 gr. Varget under a 175 gr. Sierra TMK.
I’m full-length resizing in Redding match dies.  I realize this sets the shoulder back further than absolutely necessary, but I shoot several different 308 Win rifles and I need my handloads to be usable / chamber in any of my rifles.  
I have the $100 Anneal Rite (very manual) case annealing system using x2 propane torches.  I use Tempilaq 750F liquid detection fluid.
Question: How often do I really need to case anneal to avoid cracked necks?  Every 5 shots?  Every 10 shots?
I ask, because case annealing is a LOT of extra work, and time.  I’m trying to avoid buying the motorized carousel annealer.  - CS
Link Posted: 2/24/2023 11:17:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Try to avoid buying the amp mate. Primer pockets would probably get out before the necks split. From the information I can gather, it's main benefit is consistency.
Link Posted: 2/24/2023 11:54:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: drfroglegs] [#2]
I anneal after every firing. When your spending $1/piece for Lapua brass its worth the effort to make sure they last as long as possible.

Bought the Ugly Annealer off Amazon and am extremely impressed with it.

Adds maybe 5 minutes to my reloading routine to anneal with it. I leave it setup, once I dry tumble the fired brass to get off the carbon, run it through the annealer that stays setup for my precision rounds, then size like normal.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 12:03:28 AM EDT
[#3]
Please confirm: I only need to anneal "after" I full length resize the case, right?  I don't need to anneal "before" I resize the case, do I?
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 12:14:45 AM EDT
[#4]
You can anneal either before or after, I prefer after sizing, because it releases any tension in the brass.. I to anneal every firing on my ELR ammo, often annealing it twice...Just plinking ammo, meh it might get annealed every time, likely not, but every 2-3 times, but its just for plinking stuff...I anneal for two reasons, promote better brass life, but much more important is more consistency from case to case..
I do all mine with a hand torch.. no annealer machine for me...maybe someday...
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 12:59:18 AM EDT
[#5]
FWIW:

The AMP website has a FAQ:

And they suggest BEFORE sizing.............

https://www.ampannealing.com/faq/
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 2:14:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Thump_rrr] [#6]
This is how I do it. YMMV
I deprime using a Lee Universal depriming die.
I then clean the brass using a wet tumbler with Stainelss media.
Once the brass is dried I then anneal before sizing.
I like my brass looking like this.
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 2:28:58 AM EDT
[#7]
I never anneal .308 brass.

My M1A  does enough violence to the rim of the case, and stretches the case, that its reliability is questionable after 4 or 5 firings.

Don’t fall in love with your common-caliber brass.
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 2:47:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Thump_rrr] [#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
I never anneal .308 brass.

My M1A  does enough violence to the rim of the case, and stretches the case, that its reliability is questionable after 4 or 5 firings.

Don’t fall in love with your common-caliber brass.
View Quote


My M1A National Match doesn’t stretch the brass more than 0.004”. I bought 1,000 pieces of once fired Lake City many years ago for $100.00 so I’m not worried about that.
My rims don’t show any signs of damage. I use IMR 4064 for the M1A and Garand.

Lapua 308 Win. brass sells for $140.00 in Canada
Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor brass sells for $186.00 in Canada.
I will most certainly anneal my common caliber brass.

I shot out a 308 barrel with only 200 pieces of Lapua brass which were reloaded 23 times. They were annealed every second loading. I still have the brass and it is still good.

I purchased 200 more pieces for the new barrel.
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 2:50:27 AM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:
FWIW:

The AMP website has a FAQ:

And they suggest BEFORE sizing.............

https://www.ampannealing.com/faq/
View Quote

I advise everyone, try it both ways..I've seen guys that would only load brand new brass, said it shot better...So I did some checking around, every brass supplier that makes good brass, anneals one final time before the brass gets packaged up and sold..It may/may not help you but its worth considering...
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 2:57:23 AM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

I advise everyone, try it both ways..I've seen guys that would only load brand new brass, said it shot better...So I did some checking around, every brass supplier that makes good brass, anneals one final time before the brass gets packaged up and sold..It may/may not help you but its worth considering...
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:
FWIW:

The AMP website has a FAQ:

And they suggest BEFORE sizing.............

https://www.ampannealing.com/faq/

I advise everyone, try it both ways..I've seen guys that would only load brand new brass, said it shot better...So I did some checking around, every brass supplier that makes good brass, anneals one final time before the brass gets packaged up and sold..It may/may not help you but its worth considering...



I will do a test on my next loading of 308.

I will do a second annealing after sizing on 25 pieces.
I will then chronograph both the once annealed and twice annealed and see if there is any difference in E.S., S.D. and actual group size.

It may be a few weeks but I will
Start a new thread posting the results.

Link Posted: 2/25/2023 3:02:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AKSnowRider] [#11]
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Originally Posted By Thump_rrr:



I will do a test on my next loading of 308.

I will do a second annealing after sizing on 25 pieces.
I will then chronograph both the once annealed and twice annealed and see if there is any difference in E.S., S.D. and actual group size.

It may be a few weeks but I will
Start a new thread posting the results.

View Quote

Pay attention to the groups, seems it might tighten the ES/SD, but more likely to tighten groups some..I wouldn't expect miracles, but it maybe enough to make you at first think..hmm, seem to be shooting pretty good today....

ETA: My current supply of brass for my 300rum hunt/ELR rifle started out at about 200 cases, maybe a bit less, I've lost roughly 30 of them now..but  the cases left have been loaded 16 times..which is unheard of with rum brass..Bit it is more work ...
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 1:45:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Okay, but then don't you need to tumble one more time to get the case lube out of the inside of the case lest it affect the gun powder chemistry, especially over time is storing ammo?  If you tumble again, the annealing stain is removed.
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 1:48:05 PM EDT
[#13]
For the 300 RUM, are you neck sizing only, and firing those rounds in only one rifle?
Link Posted: 2/25/2023 2:57:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By dodpilot:
Okay, but then don't you need to tumble one more time to get the case lube out of the inside of the case lest it affect the gun powder chemistry, especially over time is storing ammo?  If you tumble again, the annealing stain is removed.
View Quote


On my ELR stuff, I generally use Imperial sizing wax, but even with one shot I have had zero issues loading with nothing more than wiping cases down with a towel..But I do clean them again after all sizing is done..
 So I de-prime fired cases, I anneal them, then they get cleaned in a fart..I then bump the shoulder .002" and neck size the neck to .306" for a .308 case diameter, reason is so it will fit the neck pilot on the trimmer, so they all get trimmed, then they go back under the neck die and get taken down to .304" before a second anneal, after annealing I run the cases under a Sinclair mandrel die which finish sizes the case back to my seating dimension(normally .306") and then the brass is washed again before being primed, charged and a bullet seated.. Not saying this is the best way, not saying anything other than with this process I have found more consistent neck tension from case to case..I also have found a lot less concentricity issues in the neck by using the mandrel die to finish neck diameter and have seen a very tiny improvement in SD/ES...It is a lot of time and energy that I only do for the ELR stuff.. And yes, I loose the anneal marks, which is fine by me..

Originally Posted By dodpilot:
For the 300 RUM, are you neck sizing only, and firing those rounds in only one rifle?
View Quote

No, I bump both the shoulder and neck  every time, difference is I try to control very tightly exactly how much I am moving anything on the case.. I also always uniform primer pockets and deburr the flash hole..That all gets done on the first time loading...
Link Posted: 2/26/2023 5:07:17 AM EDT
[#15]
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Originally Posted By dodpilot:
Okay, but then don't you need to tumble one more time to get the case lube out of the inside of the case lest it affect the gun powder chemistry, especially over time is storing ammo?  If you tumble again, the annealing stain is removed.
View Quote


You can tumble one more time or not neither imperial sizing wax or hornaday one shot seems to care..Only time I've seen  bullets slip under neck tension is when my buddy was only running about 1 and 1/4 pound of tension..he was expecting 2 pounds of tension but his brass was not uniformly thick all the way around the necks on all his cases, those with a thinner side ended up slipping the bullet under recoil.. As far as affect the powder, or the long term life of the ammo, I've never heard or seen it happen anywhere with imperial sizing wax or with one shot...If it worries you, you could take a cue tip and some rubbing alcohol and wipe out the necks after fixing..I just have never seen it, and that includes on even 454 casull, if one was going to move around, it would be the casull...
Link Posted: 2/26/2023 5:26:01 AM EDT
[#16]
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Originally Posted By dodpilot:
For the 300 RUM, are you neck sizing only, and firing those rounds in only one rifle?
View Quote


No I bump the shoulder .002" and set neck tension at .002" interference as well,  I do my sizing in separate operations, so I do a shoulder bump with a bump die, then I neck the neck down .002" further than I want to set neck tension, in my case .004" total....Next I trim as needed and then final anneal, after final anneal I come back using a mandrel die to set final neck tension.. So the normal sizing dies push a ball on the primer rod into the neck before the neck gets sized, once its sized and you pull the ball out, it has a chance of destroying  everything..so I come back on the final neck sizing and monitor very closely...    Yes, this load is only shot in this rifle, it will fit my sons rifle, but normally we don't share on the big game rifles....plus this is loaded long, just a hair under 4.0"OAL versus the 3.6" that SAAMI calls for..
Hopefully that helps with out making you bonkers..
Link Posted: 3/7/2023 4:25:27 AM EDT
[#17]
I'm annealing every time the case gets reloaded. The primer is removed and wet tumbled, annealed, then sized. I made an annealer with a hopper feed so it's not much effort on my part.

If it were me, I'd anneal every time to get the longest case life possible from those Lapua cases.

I have Lapua cases for the bolt gun and use prepped LC for an AR308.

Link Posted: 3/31/2023 9:20:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Erik Cortina - just saying...
Link Posted: 12/5/2023 7:12:51 PM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By Thump_rrr:



I will do a test on my next loading of 308.

I will do a second annealing after sizing on 25 pieces.
I will then chronograph both the once annealed and twice annealed and see if there is any difference in E.S., S.D. and actual group size.

It may be a few weeks but I will
Start a new thread posting the results.

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Originally Posted By Thump_rrr:
Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:
FWIW:

The AMP website has a FAQ:

And they suggest BEFORE sizing.............

https://www.ampannealing.com/faq/

I advise everyone, try it both ways..I've seen guys that would only load brand new brass, said it shot better...So I did some checking around, every brass supplier that makes good brass, anneals one final time before the brass gets packaged up and sold..It may/may not help you but its worth considering...



I will do a test on my next loading of 308.

I will do a second annealing after sizing on 25 pieces.
I will then chronograph both the once annealed and twice annealed and see if there is any difference in E.S., S.D. and actual group size.

It may be a few weeks but I will
Start a new thread posting the results.



Did this test ever get done @Thump_rrr ?

On the topic of annealing, in my brief search, so far I've heard 4 schools of thoughts:
1)Anneal BEFORE resizing, for a beneficial work hardening effect that will give a more consistent neck tension/spring upon bullet seating thereafter, in relation to your next cycle (where you won't anneal).  This is the most common claim.
2)Anneal AFTER resizing, which is one extra stretch event "erased" by having been more freshly annealed.
3)Before or after is by and large only relevant for a bolt action shooter at 1000 yards if even then, so it doesn't matter
4)Annealing is a waste of time.

Historically I'm at 4.  But I have to say most of my Grendel brass I lose, I lose due to neck splits.  It seems like my reloading process really works the heck out of my brass, though the splits only happen after firing it.  A friend loaned me Anealeez for a few months, since he only uses every year or so.  So, I figure heck, I'll play with it.  In my case, my issues are pushing me to your sequence, of #2 or even 3 is OK - doing it after sizing.

The compounding nuance I have, is I mandrel my necks right before seating.  Which would be after annealing still, if I did this according to my current though.  So in theory, I'll get the beneficial work hardening effect from my sized brass, when I do that, anyway to at least some extent (maybe?).
Link Posted: 12/5/2023 7:34:37 PM EDT
[#20]
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:


Did this test ever get done @Thump_rrr ?

On the topic of annealing, in my brief search, so far I've heard 4 schools of thoughts:
1)Anneal BEFORE resizing, for a beneficial work hardening effect that will give a more consistent neck tension/spring upon bullet seating thereafter, in relation to your next cycle (where you won't anneal).  This is the most common claim.
2)Anneal AFTER resizing, which is one extra stretch event "erased" by having been more freshly annealed.
3)Before or after is by and large only relevant for a bolt action shooter at 1000 yards if even then, so it doesn't matter
4)Annealing is a waste of time.

Historically I'm at 4.  But I have to say most of my Grendel brass I lose, I lose due to neck splits.  It seems like my reloading process really works the heck out of my brass, though the splits only happen after firing it.  A friend loaned me Anealeez for a few months, since he only uses every year or so.  So, I figure heck, I'll play with it.  In my case, my issues are pushing me to your sequence, of #2 or even 3 is OK - doing it after sizing.

The compounding nuance I have, is I mandrel my necks right before seating.  Which would be after annealing still, if I did this according to my current though.  So in theory, I'll get the beneficial work hardening effect from my sized brass, when I do that, anyway to at least some extent (maybe?).
View Quote

Consider this..every single brass maker, every one of them, anneals after all sizing is done...call ask them, I did, every single quality maker anneals as the final step before selling/loading brass..They arn't doing it for fun..It cost them time and money to do it, so why do they do it if it's not needed? If they thought it did nothing or it wasn't needed, it would not be getting done......period...
Link Posted: 12/5/2023 7:50:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer] [#21]
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

Consider this..every single brass maker, every one of them, anneals after all sizing is done...call ask them, I did, every single quality maker anneals as the final step before selling/loading brass..They arn't doing it for fun..It cost them time and money to do it, so why do they do it if it's not needed? If they thought it did nothing or it wasn't needed, it would not be getting done......period...
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:


Did this test ever get done @Thump_rrr ?

On the topic of annealing, in my brief search, so far I've heard 4 schools of thoughts:
1)Anneal BEFORE resizing, for a beneficial work hardening effect that will give a more consistent neck tension/spring upon bullet seating thereafter, in relation to your next cycle (where you won't anneal).  This is the most common claim.
2)Anneal AFTER resizing, which is one extra stretch event "erased" by having been more freshly annealed.
3)Before or after is by and large only relevant for a bolt action shooter at 1000 yards if even then, so it doesn't matter
4)Annealing is a waste of time.

Historically I'm at 4.  But I have to say most of my Grendel brass I lose, I lose due to neck splits.  It seems like my reloading process really works the heck out of my brass, though the splits only happen after firing it.  A friend loaned me Anealeez for a few months, since he only uses every year or so.  So, I figure heck, I'll play with it.  In my case, my issues are pushing me to your sequence, of #2 or even 3 is OK - doing it after sizing.

The compounding nuance I have, is I mandrel my necks right before seating.  Which would be after annealing still, if I did this according to my current though.  So in theory, I'll get the beneficial work hardening effect from my sized brass, when I do that, anyway to at least some extent (maybe?).

Consider this..every single brass maker, every one of them, anneals after all sizing is done...call ask them, I did, every single quality maker anneals as the final step before selling/loading brass..They arn't doing it for fun..It cost them time and money to do it, so why do they do it if it's not needed? If they thought it did nothing or it wasn't needed, it would not be getting done......period...

Thanks for that.  So the anneal after sizing, THEN seat the bullet?   Good to know.  That means they are OK with the neck tension of annealed and then not resized/worked brass.  

As to if it's worth annealing at all for the home reloader - manufacturer starting with a blank worked all the way to a finished case is hardly representational of a now formed, factory annealed to strss relieve, and now simply fired casings,  internal stress levels.  It might well be true, but that's not really an indicator
Link Posted: 12/5/2023 8:21:16 PM EDT
[#22]
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Thanks for that.  So the anneal after sizing, THEN seat the bullet?   Good to know.  That means they are OK with the neck tension of annealed and then not resized/worked brass.  

As to if it's worth annealing at all for the home reloader - manufacturer starting with a blank worked all the way to a finished case is hardly representational of a now formed, factory annealed to strss relieve, and now simply fired casings,  internal stress levels.  It might well be true, but that's not really an indicator
View Quote

The factory anneals between every sizing operation, if they didn't the next operation could cause case failure..the final anneal is to return the brass to neutral, no different then when you fire brass in the chamber and it swells to fill the chamber, then slightly flexes back, annealing returns the material to neutral...Easily proven, go anneal your ready to load brass 3-4 times in a row, then load it, it will be very consistent case to case on neck tension,  at the same time, fire the other half of the batch without any annealing and watch your neck tensions and case life...The factory, has the same option to not do that final anneal as a shooter does, yet they do anneal it..I anneal as a final step on my long range stuff, I do it for a reason, some say it doesn't matter, I feel it does matter..Do as you please, You have to live with your brass, not me...
Link Posted: 12/5/2023 8:30:25 PM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

The factory anneals between every sizing operation, if they didn't the next operation could cause case failure..the final anneal is to return the brass to neutral, no different then when you fire brass in the chamber and it swells to fill the chamber, then slightly flexes back, annealing returns the material to neutral...Easily proven, go anneal your ready to load brass 3-4 times in a row, then load it, it will be very consistent case to case on neck tension,  at the same time, fire the other half of the batch without any annealing and watch your neck tensions and case life...The factory, has the same option to not do that final anneal as a shooter does, yet they do anneal it..I anneal as a final step on my long range stuff, I do it for a reason, some say it doesn't matter, I feel it does matter..Do as you please, You have to live with your brass, not me...
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Thanks for that.  So the anneal after sizing, THEN seat the bullet?   Good to know.  That means they are OK with the neck tension of annealed and then not resized/worked brass.  

As to if it's worth annealing at all for the home reloader - manufacturer starting with a blank worked all the way to a finished case is hardly representational of a now formed, factory annealed to strss relieve, and now simply fired casings,  internal stress levels.  It might well be true, but that's not really an indicator

The factory anneals between every sizing operation, if they didn't the next operation could cause case failure..the final anneal is to return the brass to neutral, no different then when you fire brass in the chamber and it swells to fill the chamber, then slightly flexes back, annealing returns the material to neutral...Easily proven, go anneal your ready to load brass 3-4 times in a row, then load it, it will be very consistent case to case on neck tension,  at the same time, fire the other half of the batch without any annealing and watch your neck tensions and case life...The factory, has the same option to not do that final anneal as a shooter does, yet they do anneal it..I anneal as a final step on my long range stuff, I do it for a reason, some say it doesn't matter, I feel it does matter..Do as you please, You have to live with your brass, not me...

Ah!  Great post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.  

Good info.  My own interst is more in brass life preservation of non-common casings, but hey - better is better
Link Posted: 12/5/2023 8:39:51 PM EDT
[#24]
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Ah!  Great post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.  

Good info.  My own interst is more in brass life preservation of non-common casings, but hey - better is better
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Thanks for that.  So the anneal after sizing, THEN seat the bullet?   Good to know.  That means they are OK with the neck tension of annealed and then not resized/worked brass.  

As to if it's worth annealing at all for the home reloader - manufacturer starting with a blank worked all the way to a finished case is hardly representational of a now formed, factory annealed to strss relieve, and now simply fired casings,  internal stress levels.  It might well be true, but that's not really an indicator

The factory anneals between every sizing operation, if they didn't the next operation could cause case failure..the final anneal is to return the brass to neutral, no different then when you fire brass in the chamber and it swells to fill the chamber, then slightly flexes back, annealing returns the material to neutral...Easily proven, go anneal your ready to load brass 3-4 times in a row, then load it, it will be very consistent case to case on neck tension,  at the same time, fire the other half of the batch without any annealing and watch your neck tensions and case life...The factory, has the same option to not do that final anneal as a shooter does, yet they do anneal it..I anneal as a final step on my long range stuff, I do it for a reason, some say it doesn't matter, I feel it does matter..Do as you please, You have to live with your brass, not me...

Ah!  Great post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.  

Good info.  My own interst is more in brass life preservation of non-common casings, but hey - better is better


It doesn't hurt to run your machine gun fired 7.62x51mm brass thru the annealer after full length resize/trim. There's a lot of stress put on the brass depending on how worn out that machine gun was...
Link Posted: 12/5/2023 8:52:34 PM EDT
[#25]
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Ah!  Great post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.  

Good info.  My own interst is more in brass life preservation of non-common casings, but hey - better is better
View Quote

A correction, I anneal my long range stuff twice per loading..once after initial sizing, then again after sizing, trimming, ready to load except for annealing and one final time under the mandrel die for final neck sizing(basically a .001" sizing)...I see the results on target at distance(further out more obvious), and in both SD and ES from case to case...Even though I rarely shoot 5 or more shot groups(big magnum makes to much heat for that) I can add up all rounds shot in a session and they still show single digit SD and ES and velocities run low double digits(under 20fps diff) across all rounds shot...Is it worth it for everyone to do it, likely not, Neck consistency and brass life mask it worth it for me..I have 300rum brass that has 16 reloads on it and still going strong.. my old way of annealing would result in 6-8 reloads before the brass was junk..I still get a primer pocket here and there, but its rare, neck/shoulder issues and casehead separations haven't been a problem since I changed methods...
Link Posted: 12/6/2023 12:16:19 AM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

A correction, I anneal my long range stuff twice per loading..once after initial sizing, then again after sizing, trimming, ready to load except for annealing and one final time under the mandrel die for final neck sizing(basically a .001" sizing)...I see the results on target at distance(further out more obvious), and in both SD and ES from case to case...Even though I rarely shoot 5 or more shot groups(big magnum makes to much heat for that) I can add up all rounds shot in a session and they still show single digit SD and ES and velocities run low double digits(under 20fps diff) across all rounds shot...Is it worth it for everyone to do it, likely not, Neck consistency and brass life mask it worth it for me..I have 300rum brass that has 16 reloads on it and still going strong.. my old way of annealing would result in 6-8 reloads before the brass was junk..I still get a primer pocket here and there, but its rare, neck/shoulder issues and casehead separations haven't been a problem since I changed methods...
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Ah!  Great post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.  

Good info.  My own interst is more in brass life preservation of non-common casings, but hey - better is better

A correction, I anneal my long range stuff twice per loading..once after initial sizing, then again after sizing, trimming, ready to load except for annealing and one final time under the mandrel die for final neck sizing(basically a .001" sizing)...I see the results on target at distance(further out more obvious), and in both SD and ES from case to case...Even though I rarely shoot 5 or more shot groups(big magnum makes to much heat for that) I can add up all rounds shot in a session and they still show single digit SD and ES and velocities run low double digits(under 20fps diff) across all rounds shot...Is it worth it for everyone to do it, likely not, Neck consistency and brass life mask it worth it for me..I have 300rum brass that has 16 reloads on it and still going strong.. my old way of annealing would result in 6-8 reloads before the brass was junk..I still get a primer pocket here and there, but its rare, neck/shoulder issues and casehead separations haven't been a problem since I changed methods...



This…..each time I work the brass it gets annealed

It keeps the brass neck tension consistent
Link Posted: 12/6/2023 12:18:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer] [#27]
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Originally Posted By PointBlank82:


It doesn't hurt to run your machine gun fired 7.62x51mm brass thru the annealer after full length resize/trim. There's a lot of stress put on the brass depending on how worn out that machine gun was...
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Originally Posted By PointBlank82:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Thanks for that.  So the anneal after sizing, THEN seat the bullet?   Good to know.  That means they are OK with the neck tension of annealed and then not resized/worked brass.  

As to if it's worth annealing at all for the home reloader - manufacturer starting with a blank worked all the way to a finished case is hardly representational of a now formed, factory annealed to strss relieve, and now simply fired casings,  internal stress levels.  It might well be true, but that's not really an indicator

The factory anneals between every sizing operation, if they didn't the next operation could cause case failure..the final anneal is to return the brass to neutral, no different then when you fire brass in the chamber and it swells to fill the chamber, then slightly flexes back, annealing returns the material to neutral...Easily proven, go anneal your ready to load brass 3-4 times in a row, then load it, it will be very consistent case to case on neck tension,  at the same time, fire the other half of the batch without any annealing and watch your neck tensions and case life...The factory, has the same option to not do that final anneal as a shooter does, yet they do anneal it..I anneal as a final step on my long range stuff, I do it for a reason, some say it doesn't matter, I feel it does matter..Do as you please, You have to live with your brass, not me...

Ah!  Great post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.  

Good info.  My own interst is more in brass life preservation of non-common casings, but hey - better is better


It doesn't hurt to run your machine gun fired 7.62x51mm brass thru the annealer after full length resize/trim. There's a lot of stress put on the brass depending on how worn out that machine gun was...


Note to self: Next time in Colorado - buy a case of very expensive beer and look up PointBlank82!!
Link Posted: 12/6/2023 9:06:55 AM EDT
[#28]
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:


Note to self: Next time in Colorado - buy a case of very expensive beer and look up PointBlank82!!
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Originally Posted By PointBlank82:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

Thanks for that.  So the anneal after sizing, THEN seat the bullet?   Good to know.  That means they are OK with the neck tension of annealed and then not resized/worked brass.  

As to if it's worth annealing at all for the home reloader - manufacturer starting with a blank worked all the way to a finished case is hardly representational of a now formed, factory annealed to strss relieve, and now simply fired casings,  internal stress levels.  It might well be true, but that's not really an indicator

The factory anneals between every sizing operation, if they didn't the next operation could cause case failure..the final anneal is to return the brass to neutral, no different then when you fire brass in the chamber and it swells to fill the chamber, then slightly flexes back, annealing returns the material to neutral...Easily proven, go anneal your ready to load brass 3-4 times in a row, then load it, it will be very consistent case to case on neck tension,  at the same time, fire the other half of the batch without any annealing and watch your neck tensions and case life...The factory, has the same option to not do that final anneal as a shooter does, yet they do anneal it..I anneal as a final step on my long range stuff, I do it for a reason, some say it doesn't matter, I feel it does matter..Do as you please, You have to live with your brass, not me...

Ah!  Great post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.  

Good info.  My own interst is more in brass life preservation of non-common casings, but hey - better is better


It doesn't hurt to run your machine gun fired 7.62x51mm brass thru the annealer after full length resize/trim. There's a lot of stress put on the brass depending on how worn out that machine gun was...


Note to self: Next time in Colorado - buy a case of very expensive beer and look up PointBlank82!!



Link Posted: 12/7/2023 12:01:52 AM EDT
[#29]
I anneal after each firing.
Link Posted: 1/10/2024 7:28:37 PM EDT
[#30]
Related to this, does anyone gas flame anneal in their basement?  Or is that a horrible dangerous bad idea?  It's an open flame, but is it really that much bigger than an oven flame?
Link Posted: 1/10/2024 7:39:18 PM EDT
[#31]
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Related to this, does anyone gas flame anneal in their basement?  Or is that a horrible dangerous bad idea?  It's an open flame, but is it really that much bigger than an oven flame?
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I don't use one in a basement but  I do use one in the garage, our garages are sealed up decently, has never been an issue....I would assume if enough of any gas built up that was flammable, even the smallest pilot light would set it off, so if you have any pilot lights going in the basement, I would assume a torch would do fine..Might crack a window for some fresh air and make sure you have good o2 sensors and smoke alarms functional, just in case but otherwise I would think you would be good...
Link Posted: 1/11/2024 3:32:02 AM EDT
[#32]
Well that looks a bit close..

Link Posted: 1/13/2024 7:18:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E] [#33]
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

Consider this..every single brass maker, every one of them, anneals after all sizing is done...call ask them, I did, every single quality maker anneals as the final step before selling/loading brass..They arn't doing it for fun..It cost them time and money to do it, so why do they do it if it's not needed? If they thought it did nothing or it wasn't needed, it would not be getting done......period...
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I'm not sure about that, at the risk of dragging this into a question of semantics,  
just about none of the commercial brass/ammunition I've looked at show annealing coloring as it seems the VERY last thing they do is tumble (clean) it.

Also............... and I AM, FOR CERTAIN, not using the correct technical terms, but using the AMP site as the source:

-If I understand their studies/findings correctly, annealing doesn't return a case to some neutral state but instead does soften it.  Then, if you do it prior to resizing, it helps to avoid work hardening the case thru the sizing process.
But work hardening isn't simply a "once you size the case, you've work hardened it" but instead very dependent on how much and hard you work the case. (repetition) is also a large factor in work hardening something.


So:
-shoot cartridge......... and case has now expanded and needs to be resized.
-anneal so it doesn't get work hardened and properly resizes when run thru the die.
-Lube and resize case.  
-If properly annealed, the case will resize properly and not say, spring back.
-But at that point there is no need to reanneal.  The damage was done by resizing it.  That was the tough part, not simply sitting there after the fact.  
And if the case was properly annealed the first time, it hasn't suffered any harm.  
-So delube and trim etc.  And carry on with your life.    

Regardless of how correct I am, in general, consistency is the key...................so whatever steps you take in reloading, do it all the same.      
Link Posted: 1/13/2024 8:00:10 PM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:


I'm not sure about that, at the risk of dragging this into a question of semantics,  
just about none of the commercial brass/ammunition I've looked at show annealing coloring as it seems the VERY last thing they do is tumble (clean) it.

Also............... and I AM, FOR CERTAIN, not using the correct technical terms, but using the AMP site as the source:

-If I understand their studies/findings correctly, annealing doesn't return a case to some neutral state but instead does soften it.  Then, if you do it prior to resizing, it helps to avoid work hardening the case thru the sizing process.
But work hardening isn't simply a "once you size the case, you've work hardened it" but instead very dependent on how much (repetition) and hard you work the case.


So:
-shoot cartridge......... and case has now expanded and needs to be resized.
-anneal so it doesn't get work hardened and properly resizes when run thru the die.
-Lube and resize case.  
-If properly annealed, the case will resize properly and not say, spring back.
-But at that point there is no need to reanneal.  The damage was done by resizing it.  That was the tough part, not simply sitting there after the fact.  
-So delube and trim etc.  

Regardless of how correct I am, in general, consistency is the key...................so whatever steps you take in reloading, do it all the same.      
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I checked, every quality brass maker anneals a final time after all sizing, lapua, ADG, Norma, and most others..they don't spend that time and money for nothing..Regardless, I doubt most shooters would ever know the difference, I do it for a specific reason on my LR/Hunt ammo for one rifle, for more consistent neck tension, as a side bonus, SD/ES is smaller, brass life is better and the only cases I lose now are to primer pockets..This is just another of those variables that some might try when nothing else seems to help..it surely won't hurt the brass being annealed again...I noticed it because I have a friend that only loads brand new Lapua brass for his LR rifle, says it shoots better than when its reloaded, the only difference in the brass is brand new its been freshly annealed after final sizing, where his reloads were for how we always do them, annealed before sizing..So it got me thinking about it and some checking around and most brass makers do a final anneal after all sizing is done...if they feel its neccasary I figured I should try it..
Link Posted: 1/14/2024 10:05:21 PM EDT
[#35]
I guess this is right?   Grendel brass is short, so used a doorknob cutter to make thinner wheels.  About 5 seconds.  I slowed it down to:

5.5 seconds flame tip @ 1/8".   It turned the 750 paint in about 4-4.5 seconds.

Link Posted: 4/19/2024 1:53:27 PM EDT
[#36]
I bought a 12" length of 2" delrin rod to cut feed drums from.

Have one short enough to anneal the mouth of 44mag cases that keeps the delrin well out of the path of the flame.
Link Posted: Yesterday 12:02:14 PM EDT
[#37]
I buy brass in bulk. I recycle cases after they have been fired five times. Meaning, once fired brass is a powerful aphrodisiac.

I don't care enough to evaluate each induvial case, provided they are not old.

Case annealing is best left to individuals who have more time than money.



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