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Posted: 8/15/2017 7:23:46 PM EDT
I've had a Savage 10fp .223 since 2005 and I've shot it a lot and it's a great shooting rifle.  It's the 24" 1:9" barrel.  My upper limit for stabilizing bullets seems to be the 77gr SMK and hornady 68gr bthp, it loves them both.  I tried and failed with the 75gr Amax which is what I hoped to use for my few opportunities for 600 yards and a little beyond..  

My big question is how much would I have to gain by going with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel?  Not touching this rifle though, it shoots lights out.  I'd be buying or building another rifle just to squeeze every last bit of capability out of the .223.  

I've sold off my .308 and really don't want to mess with a new caliber right now.  I love the .223 for how cheap it is to shoot and how easy it is to load for, and practically zero recoil for spending long days at the range or in the field.  Plus I find it fun to use something to the extreme until you just can't make it do anymore.  

I shoot 300 yards every week all summer and am in the process of finding a few spots for 600+ so this is why I'm getting serious with these questions.  

My Savage right now is topped off by a Vortex Razor gen ll 4.5-27x so I'm good with glass no matter what and if I got a different rifle to push the .223 to its max that would be the scope to go on it.  

Sorry if I'm jumping all over the place, trying to get my thoughts nailed down and  its sometimes not easy for me to do.  

Soooo should I stick with this rifle for now with the 68gr bthp that this rifle loves? (Got 600 bullets left currently) and see how far I can reach with it... Or build/buy a different rifle with maybe longer barrel and a 1:7 twist and push those long heavy pills way out there?  The new hornady VLD line looks interesting I wanted to try them at some point.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 7:32:32 PM EDT
[#1]
Use a 6.5 Creedmore "to the extreme"?
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 10:01:11 PM EDT
[#2]
He wants to shoot 223 to the extreme.

Me?  I'd screw a 1/7-1/8" barrel on the gun you have.  It's a heavy bolt gun in a mouse gun caliber, they ALL shoot lights out. No point in going all overboard and building a whole 'nuther rifle for just a plinker.  

I personally don't see much point in going with the heavy 90 grain bullets as you have to hot-rod the hell out of 'em and at that point, I'd rather go with something bigger.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 11:43:09 PM EDT
[#3]
I'd give the 53 gr Vmax a try. They are high bc for their weight.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 4:23:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony] [#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By robpiat:
I'd give the 53 gr Vmax a try. They are high bc for their weight.
View Quote
Probably the best of that class, but doesn't beat the 77gr SMK.

OP, plug your values into JBM Ballistics. You'll want something that stays 1300fps+ at your desired distance or remains stable through the transonic zone at the extreme. A 1:8 can stabilize the 80gr class, though without maximum BC. A 1:7 will stabilize anything, though the 90gr class might get finicky.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:44:58 AM EDT
[#5]
The 1/9 will do what you need it to do out to 600. I'm shooting 77's in my 1/9. It does great at 600. A friend is shooting the 70gr Noslers. They are doing better than my 77 SMK's. His is a Savage 1/9 24".
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 7:26:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh] [#6]
Yes get a 6.5:1 twist or less desirable, a  7 twist, that is how you push a .223 to the extreme(1k+).

You will want to shoot 90smk, 90vld or 80eldm.

How much do you have to gain? It will be like going from a .308win to a 6.5 CM.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 7:49:59 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:

I personally don't see much point in going with the heavy 90 grain bullets as you have to hot-rod the hell out of 'em and at that point, I'd rather go with something bigger.  
View Quote
Just to be informative for the OP......

" hotrod the hell out of them" means seating them long, generally over most magazine lengths.

The point in 90gr bullets is high BC which means low wind drift, more retained velocity, extended range. 

The 80eldm is a 90smk killer but at the speed required to beat my 90smk load it didn't shoot well for me.

The 80eldm needs a 7 twist.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 9:17:02 AM EDT
[#8]
I've got two 223's that I load for.

One is an 8 twist that I shoot 80 SMK through with better ballistics than my 308 and that's not even pushing it hard.

The other is a 9 twist factory savage barrel that I have just started playing with the new Nosler 70 RDF. So far it looks promising and it has a BC of .416.

You should give them a try in your barrel they will probably shoot great. I don't think there's another 70 grain bullet that has as good of a BC.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:32:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: avboiler11] [#9]
Get a Criterion 1:7 twist prefit.

Feed it 80gr ELD-Ms over 8208XBR.

Watch your mousegun run rings around the average 308 when it comes to drop/drift.

Make it 223AI for mo'bettaness.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:54:56 AM EDT
[#10]
OP, are you not able to shoot 68's and 77's currently at 600??????
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 12:13:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JJREA:
OP, are you not able to shoot 68's and 77's currently at 600??????
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He is interested in going farther than that based on the thread title. 600 is half the limit of the .223.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 12:14:56 PM EDT
[#12]
That 70gr Nosler peaks my interest, I might have to pick up a box to try, I haven't paid attention to what's out there in a while I guess.  

I'm definitely not putting a different barrel on this rifle though, the factory barrel has served me well for so long and it's not done yet.  

Sounds like there's plenty of potential beyond what my current rifle is capable of which keeps my idea alive of putting together another rifle specifically for long range.  I have zero problem with having "another plinker". It's what I enjoy most about shooting.  It is therapeutic and relaxing and really fun.  

I think I will experiment with a few more 1:9" class bullets and continue brain storming on another rifle will probably be built I've yet to have one done up right and that's a good opportunity to do it I think.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 1:09:49 PM EDT
[#13]
.223 is one of the weakest rounds on the market but really shines out to 700 - 750 yards for such a pipsqueak round. 75/77 grain bullets will work at that distance, just not as well as the 80's. The first question I would have is how long can you load (OAL) and still fit in the magazine? I'm assuming you still want to be able to feed from the magazine, not turn your rifle into a single shot.

If you seriously want to play* at longer ranges consider a 1/7 barrel from a premium source. You'll want a 5.56mm Match or similar long throated chamber so the 80 to 82 grain bullets can be seated @ 2.500"+ to increase your internal case volume. This will reduce peak pressures and allow the longer bullets to really work well from such a small case.

Some chambers will allow OAL" of up to 2.550" and this is a good thing when shooting the 80's. Several gunsmiths were modifying Winchester short action Model 70 push feeds to accept OAL's up to 2.60" in the magazine. Whether your Savage will accept ammo this long would be the number one factor for me to proceed. I want the best of both worlds, long OAL heavy bullets that fit and feed from the magazine but only jump .010" +/- to the rifling when chambered. If you can't do it then get a bigger caliber.

* I say play, because virtually every other caliber bigger than .223 is better than .223 at long range.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 3:35:37 PM EDT
[#14]
75 and 80s or even 90s seated long will get to 1000 no problem.  I run a 7.7 which I've found to be plenty to spin the 80s for me.  It's harder to see impacts, but they get out there without much effort
Link Posted: 8/18/2017 9:18:43 PM EDT
[#15]
I've got a rare opportunity to visit a 1200m range on Sunday, all I got is my 68gr bthp load to play with.  Wish me luck.    Wish it wasn't on such short notice.  Oh well, it's free and will be a hell of a learning experience!
Link Posted: 8/18/2017 10:42:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jus228:
I've got a rare opportunity to visit a 1200m range on Sunday, all I got is my 68gr bthp load to play with.  Wish me luck.    Wish it wasn't on such short notice.  Oh well, it's free and will be a hell of a learning experience!
View Quote
Grab a couple of boxes of Hornady regular 75gr'ers and a couple of boxes of the Hornady super performance. I think you will be surprised.
Link Posted: 8/19/2017 2:55:17 PM EDT
[#17]
I love shooting 223 and shoot it out to 1000 yards on a regular basis with the 77 Nosler CC which is similar to the 77 SMK.  It isn't easy but it isn't that much harder than shooting a 308 with a 175 SMK in my experience.  Minute of silhouette is acceptable for my needs, and if I want better performance then I get out the 6x47.

The hard part with 223 is spotting hits but if you put a little velocity behind a 75 or 80 grain bullet with a higher BC, such as a Amax or ELD, then you can get good results.  Barrel length starts to matter when you start shooting them or you can run an Ackley Improved.

I've been playing some with the 70 RDF and they seem to do really well in a 1:9 twist Remington so far.  Sub MOA at 200, hits on steel at 500 but no defined results to say it is any better than the 77 grain bullets.
Link Posted: 8/19/2017 5:51:47 PM EDT
[#18]
I shoot 77s out to 900 all the time and they work fine. Just get a twist that will stabilize the heavies.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 11:59:25 AM EDT
[#19]
I was able to get multiple hits on 800m man sized pop ups with my 68gr bthp.  

Also had a friends 6.5 creedmoor with me and according to my spotter who was able to see vapor trails that I scored a hit on a plywood pickup truck right in the door at roughly 1550m.  That was really crazy for me, having never shot further than 440 yards before yesterday.  That was with a 142gr SMK load that I had worked up Saturday night at the last minute

Talk about hooked, it's the most fun I've had in a long time, wish I could do it more often.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:02:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FZJ80] [#20]
I just got my Krieger LV taper barrel in 1-7.7 the other day.  I basically plan to shoot or duplicate the 77 grain SMK loads from IMI.  Should be a cheap/fun rifle to shoot once finished.  The selection of really great .223 heavy bullets has really grown over the last few years.  

I wish I'd gone with a faster twist in my big .22-250.  Its a 1-9 and the next one will be 1-8 or 1-7.7.  There is plenty of room in the BDL/Badger mag well for much longer loads.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:43:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jus228:
I was able to get multiple hits on 800m man sized pop ups with my 68gr bthp.  

Also had a friends 6.5 creedmoor with me and according to my spotter who was able to see vapor trails that I scored a hit on a plywood pickup truck right in the door at roughly 1550m.  That was really crazy for me, having never shot further than 440 yards before yesterday.  That was with a 142gr SMK load that I had worked up Saturday night at the last minute

Talk about hooked, it's the most fun I've had in a long time, wish I could do it more often.
View Quote
Nicely done!
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 11:14:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FZJ80:
I just got my Krieger LV taper barrel in 1-7.7 the other day.  I basically plan to shoot or duplicate the 77 grain SMK loads from IMI.  Should be a cheap/fun rifle to shoot once finished.  The selection of really great .223 heavy bullets has really grown over the last few years.  

I wish I'd gone with a faster twist in my big .22-250.  Its a 1-9 and the next one will be 1-8 or 1-7.7.  There is plenty of room in the BDL/Badger mag well for much longer loads.
View Quote
I tried IMI Razor Core in my TS Custom built Rem 700 .223 Wylde.  I had to get PT&G firing pin and extra power firing pin spring to light the primers on that shit.  Then I decided it wasn't worth the wear on my good Pac-Nor barrel so I relegated it to AR use only.

CBC's MK262 load is better in every respect.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:29:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: garred8787] [#23]
uhhh you have a savage....which means a barrel change is just a vice, some 2x4's and a barrel nut wrench away. very simple to do. being that you obviously already reload here's the route I recommend.

Get a nice 1:8-1:7 .223ai barrel throated for the 80+ class buy some IMR 8208xbr, get a lee collet neck die now, later down the road once your brass needs a bump you can buy a .223 ai die FL die. pick a 80-90gr pill of your choice and enjoy your new found abilities.

The AI is more for brass life and little to no trimming of necks. it also yields some extra FPS. most loads will end up around 2.45" + with a properly throated barrel.

if you need some extra throw you can either rotate the bolt baffle or buy a standard baffle this will allow the bolt to move more fore and aft. haven't played with the factory mags but I think you can modify the spacer for extra coal. I went the DBM route.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:06:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbrew44:
The 1/9 will do what you need it to do out to 600. I'm shooting 77's in my 1/9. It does great at 600. A friend is shooting the 70gr Noslers. They are doing better than my 77 SMK's. His is a Savage 1/9 24".
View Quote
That's because those damn Nosler's are super long.  I think the 70gr is .97".  IIRC, the 75gr AMAX's were at an inch or just below and they don't perform in AR's either because of their length.  Not a good one for AR's, that's for sure.

OP - I have a friend who got a barrel chambered in .223AI.  He's able to send 80gr VLD's out at just over 2900.  It's a slick round and has pretty solid ballistics at that speed.  The nice thing with the AI is that you can run .223 factory ammo through it, and if it is decent ammo, the accuracy is still there.  He's not losing much when he runs factory loads (a rarity anyhow).

Something to chew on...I am going for a similar goal, just not doing the AI (I don't care if my brass gets hammered).

I am getting a 28" 7 twist Bartlein for my TL3.  I am going to try and get a good 77-80gr load developed, would like to get them to 2900 with XBR 8208.  Even at 2800, the projectile is still doing pretty damn good.
Link Posted: 8/26/2017 8:31:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Little more load development today in my Savage 1/9 with the 70 RDF. I think I'm gonna go with 25.0

Link Posted: 8/28/2017 11:23:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FALex] [#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RFutch:
Little more load development today in my Savage 1/9 with the 70 RDF. I think I'm gonna go with 25.0

http://i.imgur.com/14tvsW6.jpg
View Quote
There you go.  I really believe those 70gr RDF's may be the ticket for .223 bolt guns.  It is an outstanding projectile from what I am seeing.  That being said, 69gr SMK's, IMHO, will always be the "go-to" for precision rounds in .223.  Given the right load, they can make damn near any rifle shoot to it's potential.

ETA - @RFutch - what brass were your running?  What length on your barrel and what velocity were you seeing with 25gr Varget?
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 8:18:00 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FALex:
There you go.  I really believe those 70gr RDF's may be the ticket for .223 bolt guns.  It is an outstanding projectile from what I am seeing.  That being said, 69gr SMK's, IMHO, will always be the "go-to" for precision rounds in .223.  Given the right load, they can make damn near any rifle shoot to it's potential.

ETA - @RFutch - what brass were your running?  What length on your barrel and what velocity were you seeing with 25gr Varget?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FALex:
Originally Posted By RFutch:
Little more load development today in my Savage 1/9 with the 70 RDF. I think I'm gonna go with 25.0

http://i.imgur.com/14tvsW6.jpg
There you go.  I really believe those 70gr RDF's may be the ticket for .223 bolt guns.  It is an outstanding projectile from what I am seeing.  That being said, 69gr SMK's, IMHO, will always be the "go-to" for precision rounds in .223.  Given the right load, they can make damn near any rifle shoot to it's potential.

ETA - @RFutch - what brass were your running?  What length on your barrel and what velocity were you seeing with 25gr Varget?
Once fired PPU which is pretty decent from what I'm seeing so far. I'm also using standard CCI SR primers in a 20" barrel. Not sure about velocity yet as I still don't have a chronograph. I have to see what my drop is at 500 and then work backwards from there into JBM. My next purchase is a MagnetoSpeed.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 8:38:20 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TeeRex:
75 and 80s or even 90s seated long will get to 1000 no problem.  I run a 7.7 which I've found to be plenty to spin the 80s for me.  It's harder to see impacts, but they get out there without much effort
View Quote
A lot of people seem to get the best accuracy and stability for bullets in 77 grain range out of 1/7.8ish.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 9:02:25 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RFutch:
Once fired PPU which is pretty decent from what I'm seeing so far. I'm also using standard CCI SR primers in a 20" barrel. Not sure about velocity yet as I still don't have a chronograph. I have to see what my drop is at 500 and then work backwards from there into JBM. My next purchase is a MagnetoSpeed.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RFutch:
Originally Posted By FALex:
Originally Posted By RFutch:
Little more load development today in my Savage 1/9 with the 70 RDF. I think I'm gonna go with 25.0

http://i.imgur.com/14tvsW6.jpg
There you go.  I really believe those 70gr RDF's may be the ticket for .223 bolt guns.  It is an outstanding projectile from what I am seeing.  That being said, 69gr SMK's, IMHO, will always be the "go-to" for precision rounds in .223.  Given the right load, they can make damn near any rifle shoot to it's potential.

ETA - @RFutch - what brass were your running?  What length on your barrel and what velocity were you seeing with 25gr Varget?
Once fired PPU which is pretty decent from what I'm seeing so far. I'm also using standard CCI SR primers in a 20" barrel. Not sure about velocity yet as I still don't have a chronograph. I have to see what my drop is at 500 and then work backwards from there into JBM. My next purchase is a MagnetoSpeed.
Try cci bench rest or Remington 7 1/2br.Attachment Attached File

See if that shrinks your group just a little.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 1:00:39 PM EDT
[#30]
I have some FGM primers for my other 223 but they are still so hard to find that I wanted to see how this gun shot with the cheapo's.
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