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Posted: 6/17/2017 4:41:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2017 4:42:45 PM EDT by castlebravo84]
I just ran an OCW with 147 ELD-M seated 0.020" from the lands over 45.1gr to 47.5gr of RL-26 in Hornady brass with BR-2 primers, and I could use some help interpreting the results.  This was shot from a Savage 10BA Stealth (24" barrel) with a magnetospeed v3 attached.  The lowest charge weights look like an obvious node, but they also gave the worst velocity spread.  The highest charge weights gave the best velocity spread, but no consistent POI node.  What do you guys think I should do?

Link Posted: 6/17/2017 5:02:42 PM EDT
I hate to be an ass but I would try to find a lb of h4350 and see how that compares.

It's a good benchmark and known good combo.
Link Posted: 6/17/2017 6:00:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By robpiat:
I hate to be an ass but I would try to find a lb of h4350 and see how that compares.

It's a good benchmark and known good combo.
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I can't find it anywhere, and I like the velocity that RL-26 gives.
Link Posted: 6/17/2017 6:03:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By castlebravo84:


I can't find it anywhere, and I like the velocity that RL-26 gives.
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Seems like there's no free lunch though. Velocity at the expense of consistency is a fools errand.

I called around. About the 10th store 90 miles away had 4350. Its floating around just a little work and persistence
Link Posted: 6/17/2017 7:44:21 PM EDT
Cab't see the picture, but I wouldn't shoot test groups with anything attached to my barrel that wouldn't be there all the time.
Link Posted: 6/17/2017 8:44:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/17/2017 11:15:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2017 11:16:41 PM EDT by mbtech]
Magspeed really messes my groups up. Personally I'd test velocity and accuracy separately.

ETA. I also shoot 5 shot groups. I've had plenty of times I've had 3 rounds touching and 2 satellites.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 8:33:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By mustb123:
OP - where are you in Texas?

I'm driving to El Paso with my son around July 6-7th to deliver a car for him from Florida. He is at Fort Bliss.

If you are on my route - I would be happy to carry a pound out there for you. The 4350 is worth trying.
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Originally Posted By mustb123:
OP - where are you in Texas?

I'm driving to El Paso with my son around July 6-7th to deliver a car for him from Florida. He is at Fort Bliss.

If you are on my route - I would be happy to carry a pound out there for you. The 4350 is worth trying.
That is a fine offer, but I have a bunch of the Reloder 26 already that I want to shoot up first.  If I can't get it to work well, then I will do what it takes to find some H4350.

Originally Posted By mbtech:
Magspeed really messes my groups up. Personally I'd test velocity and accuracy separately.

ETA. I also shoot 5 shot groups. I've had plenty of times I've had 3 rounds touching and 2 satellites.
I tested the magspeed with some factory ammo and saw just a slight increase in group size along with a consistent POI shift, but I think my next step will be to shoot the same charge weights again without the chronograph and with five round groups; I want to find out if the magspeed messes with where the nodes show up in load development.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 1:28:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By castlebravo84:I tested the magspeed with some factory ammo and saw just a slight increase in group size along with a consistent POI shift . . .
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The amount of shift can depend on the firearm, barrel, position of the MS strap, and the amount of tension on that strap. IOW, if the strap shifts or is re-adjusted during test firing the shift cannot be predicted.

At least that's what happened during my own tests, and led to my purchase of a Labradar so I could capture the MV of load development rounds without distorting or putting into question their results.

I think you have a good plan moving forward :)
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 2:54:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Twoboxer:
The amount of shift can depend on the firearm, barrel, position of the MS strap, and the amount of tension on that strap. IOW, if the strap shifts or is re-adjusted during test firing the shift cannot be predicted.
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I did notice vertical stringing the first time I used it, but I haven't noticed a problem since I started cranking it down tight.  I don't see myself buying a labradar, but I might try to fabricate something like this.

Link Posted: 6/20/2017 11:11:07 PM EDT
I'm getting excellent results with Reloder 16 and the 147s

Attachment Attached File
 
Link Posted: 11/14/2017 8:05:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2017 8:30:37 PM EDT by MadLT]
Sorry for the late reply.  I was curious what you found with this combo because I'm wanting to try it.  BTW your next node is ~ 46.5 grains.  Looking at your target, your node probably extends from 46.3 to 46.8 putting 46.5 right in the middle.  I'd consider loading a few up at 46.5 and doing a seating depth and a primer test to see what it prefers at the higher node.
Link Posted: 11/16/2017 6:03:30 AM EDT


Build a mount.  This will keep it off the barrel. That's just a piece of 90 aluminum.
Link Posted: 11/16/2017 6:50:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2017 6:51:28 PM EDT by castlebravo84]
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Originally Posted By MadLT:
Sorry for the late reply.  I was curious what you found with this combo because I'm wanting to try it.  BTW your next node is ~ 46.5 grains.  Looking at your target, your node probably extends from 46.3 to 46.8 putting 46.5 right in the middle.  I'd consider loading a few up at 46.5 and doing a seating depth and a primer test to see what it prefers at the higher node.
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I ended up getting Lapua brass and giving up on Hornady.  I've been getting good results with 45.3gr RL26 in Lapua lit by a CCI 450 for ~2755 fps.  I may break out the Hornady brass once I re-barrel the rifle, and try for the next higher node again.
Link Posted: 11/17/2017 8:26:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By smokinghole:
http://i.imgur.com/TVk606M.jpg

Build a mount.  This will keep it off the barrel. That's just a piece of 90 aluminum.
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Does it eliminate poi shift? I might make one of those tonight. I don't have a rail available on my bolt guns. I can make something that will work. Good idea!
Link Posted: 11/17/2017 9:58:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2017 10:00:22 AM EDT by popnfresh]
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Originally Posted By zach_:
Does it eliminate poi shift? I might make one of those tonight.
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Originally Posted By zach_:
Originally Posted By smokinghole:
http://i.imgur.com/TVk606M.jpg

Build a mount.  This will keep it off the barrel. That's just a piece of 90 aluminum.
Does it eliminate poi shift? I might make one of those tonight.
Not likely. In my testing on two rifles the bullet poi clearly goes away from the bayonet.

At 6:00 the bullet shifts to 12:00
At 12:00 the bullet shifts to 6:00
At 3:00 the bullet shifts to 9:00
At 9:00 the bullet shifts to 3:00

It appears as if either gas or the magnetic field is pushing the bullet away.
Link Posted: 11/17/2017 4:59:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2017 5:02:18 PM EDT by porider]
Weight your brass and keep them .5 grains of each other what ever brand you use. I see high ES, SD, velocity spikes from varied brass weights as little as 2 grains. I'd load another batch of 45.1gr as the control with closely matched brass weight. See if you can duplicate that group again.

Your next node is 46.6 - 46.9. That 46.9 high flyer is either your powder thrower throwing a tad more powder or you got a piece of brass weighing a little too much or it was you! I would load another batch of 46.6 with all consistent brass weight to see if you could get that group tighter. The 46.6 - 46.9 node has a velocity spread of 20 fps so depending on what your developing the load for it might matter .


Brass Weight (case capacity) and neck tension is the name of the game. Do you anneal? (referring to neck tension) You'll need it after your next range outing.
Link Posted: 11/18/2017 9:13:08 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Not likely. In my testing on two rifles the bullet poi clearly goes away from the bayonet.

At 6:00 the bullet shifts to 12:00
At 12:00 the bullet shifts to 6:00
At 3:00 the bullet shifts to 9:00
At 9:00 the bullet shifts to 3:00

It appears as if either gas or the magnetic field is pushing the bullet away.
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I thought you tested the repositioning, but I couldn't find the post.
Labradar still seems to be the best option. $600 with the base, a little less on sale at times.
Link Posted: 11/18/2017 2:10:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2017 2:10:52 PM EDT by popnfresh]
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Originally Posted By zach_:
I thought you tested the repositioning, but I couldn't find the post.
Labradar still seems to be the best option. $600 with the base, a little less on sale at times.
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Originally Posted By zach_:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Not likely. In my testing on two rifles the bullet poi clearly goes away from the bayonet.

At 6:00 the bullet shifts to 12:00
At 12:00 the bullet shifts to 6:00
At 3:00 the bullet shifts to 9:00
At 9:00 the bullet shifts to 3:00

It appears as if either gas or the magnetic field is pushing the bullet away.
I thought you tested the repositioning, but I couldn't find the post.
Labradar still seems to be the best option. $600 with the base, a little less on sale at times.
Off the barrel mounting would take care of the harmonics issue using it for load development........ I would think.

The POI shift isn't a big deal, but it is the main reason I added the Labradar to my collection.
Link Posted: 11/18/2017 9:27:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Off the barrel mounting would take care of the harmonics issue using it for load development........ I would think.

The POI shift isn't a big deal, but it is the main reason I added the Labradar to my collection.
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The labradar is the way to go.. since adding it, i have gathered MV data on damn near ever shot I've taken.
Link Posted: 11/19/2017 10:47:16 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By right_rudder:
The labradar is the way to go.. since adding it, i have gathered MV data on damn near ever shot I've taken.
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Originally Posted By right_rudder:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Off the barrel mounting would take care of the harmonics issue using it for load development........ I would think.

The POI shift isn't a big deal, but it is the main reason I added the Labradar to my collection.
The labradar is the way to go.. since adding it, i have gathered MV data on damn near ever shot I've taken.
Only thing that sucks is when you forget to arm it....
Link Posted: 11/21/2017 1:10:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2017 1:10:53 AM EDT by castlebravo84]
I shot another OCW, this time with Lapua brass.  I felt a lot of resistance when seating one of the 47.3gr rounds, and that round was slow compared to the other four, so I included velocity data for the full 5-shot group, as well as 4-shot data omitting the hard-seated round.  Using Quickload, I was predicting OBT nodes around 2750, and 2840 fps.  I felt like I wasn't really doing my part behind the rifle early on with the lower charge weights.  Lesson learned; bring more warm-up/practice ammo next time.  I plan on loading up some more 46.1gr to test, and also another OCW in 0.2gr increments from 47.1gr to 47.9gr.  I think 47.5gr might be a really good load.

Link Posted: 11/22/2017 10:40:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Only thing that sucks is when you forget to arm it....
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Man your not joking.
I had a good test going. Walked down to the target then to the bathroom to take a leak. Came back and shot another 10 only to realize at shot number 9 that I forgot to re arm it.
Link Posted: 11/30/2017 7:50:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2017 8:15:46 PM EDT by castlebravo84]
I finished shooting the charge weight spread from 47.1gr to 47.9gr.  The far right shot for 47.7gr was definitely pulled by me.  It looks like I've got a velocity flat spot from 47.1 to 47.5 gr, but the velocity is a bit lower than it was in the last OCW test.  It was a warmer day today than it was when I shot the previous test, so I'm not sure what happened; my best guess is changing bore conditions.  In any case, I'm happy with 2800+ and ~1/2 MOA shooting from a bipod.  47.9gr of RL26 in a Lapua case fills it up to the neck, so I don't think I'll bother trying to push it further, but the fired brass doesn't look bad at all.

Link Posted: 12/4/2017 9:13:04 PM EDT
I think I'd try 47.4 grains alongside 47.5 with your current components.
Link Posted: 12/9/2017 9:38:02 PM EDT
I tried this combo out and the ocw was 46.4 in Hornady brass with a 147 seated .020" off. ~2.840 OAL. The primer made the difference in how tight it shot. The 210M outperformed the CCI to make five shots touch at 100.
Link Posted: 12/9/2017 10:44:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MadLT:
I tried this combo out and the ocw was 46.4 in Hornady brass with a 147 seated .020" off. ~2.840 OAL. The primer made the difference in how tight it shot. The 210M outperformed the CCI to make five shots touch at 100.
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What velocity did you get with 46.4 gr?  I'll have to give the 210M a try if I ever make another attempt with Hornady brass.
Link Posted: 12/11/2017 4:49:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By castlebravo84:

What velocity did you get with 46.4 gr?  I'll have to give the 210M a try if I ever make another attempt with Hornady brass.
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I didn't shoot with them with the magneto on.  I wanted as little interference with groups as possible.  I'll throw some more together and post up what I get.
Link Posted: 12/11/2017 4:55:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2017 4:58:59 PM EDT by uglygun]
Seeming how group 2 has shots very close to that of group 1...

Seems like a no brainer to try for a charge weight between the two and see what it hits...

To me part of the reason for OCW is so that you buy yourself some room for tolerance stacking so a little high or a little low still yields good results.

I would skip worrying about pushing for more velocity if my group size with THAT combination yielded such tight groups.    Want more velocity try a new powder maybe and hope for another node with better velocity.

/edit

Post made after viewing the original post.

Seeing the results that have come along with a change in brass it looks like you are honing in on a good load.
Link Posted: 12/13/2017 7:21:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2017 7:22:38 PM EDT by MadLT]
After final seating adjustment with the 147s my final OCW came it at 46.5 grains of RL26 with a 210M in Hornady brass.  The 147 is seated at .015" off the lands (2.845 OAL).  The velocity is 2770 fps and the precision is five shots in to a tiny egg shaped hole.
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