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10/15/2021 7:52:46 PM
Posted: 1/8/2015 11:35:48 AM EDT
My custom rifle should be here soon.    I picked up some Berger 190s a ways back and have H1000 on hand.  Any pointers?  I haven't reloaded for the 300 win mag yet and will need to do some reading.   The rifle was checked with Berger 210s with 75 grain of H1000 and shot less then half MOA at 100 yards.  I was told it was just to make sure the rifle met that qualification, I'd have to tweak my loads.

thanks for any advice.
Link Posted: 1/9/2015 4:36:33 PM EDT
delirious1,
Go to the Berger Bullet website and read Erics column on "VLDs, Making them shoot" That will give you a starting point. Do you have any tool(s) for measuring Your cartridge OAL to the lands? We will be glad to help you with this as you go along. You can contact us either in this string or at [email protected]
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Link Posted: 1/9/2015 8:08:44 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By barefooter56:
delirious1,
Go to the Berger Bullet website and read Erics column on "VLDs, Making them shoot" That will give you a starting point. Do you have any tool(s) for measuring Your cartridge OAL to the lands? We will be glad to help you with this as you go along. You can contact us either in this string or at [email protected]
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
View Quote


I did purchase an RCBS Mic.  It has a bullet like measuring tool, however, I've read it's not that great of a device.  I was going to do a relief cut on a 300 win mag case and put a bullet in loosely and chamber the round repetitively and then mic the length for average.  I don't have my 300 win mag yet.  It's almost finished.  Should be a few weeks.  I'm just doing some research now.
Link Posted: 1/10/2015 10:26:05 PM EDT
Get the Hornady Tool!  Works a lot better!.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 2:03:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rn22723:
Get the Hornady Tool!  Works a lot better!.
View Quote


Which one are you referring to?  Link?
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 2:50:46 PM EDT
Delrious1,
He may be referring to the Hornady bullet comparator body and insert. With that you should also get the STRAIGHT Hornady OAL tool and the modified 300 WM cartridge case. You can try the "neck size a fired cartridge case that still chambers and make 2 cuts across from each other down the neck and chamber the round to find your OAL to the lands " . But the OAL tools like the Sinclair and Hornady can make life easier. One this I would suggest doing with wIth any method of finding your OAL to the lands is to polish the tarnish off the dummy round you make after "finding" your OAL to the lands and chamber it slowly in the rifle and check for "lands" marks on the bullet. If you have a 4 grove barrel it should be 4, 3 groove 3 ETC. If the lands marks are long, seat the bullet a little deeper and repeat the check like described above until you end up with lands lines on the bullet that are about the same thickness as a mark a really sharp #2 pencil point will make on a sheet of paper. You are still slightly into the lands but you still have a reference mark on the bullet. Then measure this round with the bullet comparator. The comparator measurement is what you make your seating depth changes off of. Hope this helps!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 11:52:46 AM EDT
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/570611/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gage-bolt-action

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/231904/hornady-lock-n-load-bullet-comparator-basic-set-with-6-inserts

So, are we talking these two items above?  Thanks for the responses.  I appreciate it.
Link Posted: 1/14/2015 4:11:07 PM EDT
delerious1,
Yes sir!
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Link Posted: 1/14/2015 10:47:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By barefooter56:
delerious1,
Yes sir!
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
View Quote


Great.  On order.  And my custom rifle was shipped today.   Fun fun.  I'll update when I get ready to load some 190s if I have questions.  Thanks Phil
Link Posted: 1/27/2015 12:36:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2015 12:59:43 AM EDT by delirious1]
OK,  got the rifle and the measuring device.  After 10 attempts, the average and most consistent length to the Ogive is 2.845......   I will work up my loads according to the article you recommended.


.010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
.040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

I've seen where people say 0.02 off the lands...but I assume it's rifle dependent.  

Having not loaded for this rifle yet, I will have work up my loads.  I have H1000 on hand.   Do you have any suggestion on what length I should start with and be consistent with during the work up?   The guy whom tested my rifle before he sent it said that he was testing Berger VLD 210 grain at 75 grains of H1000 and it shot sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.

They reason I have 190 grain bullets on hand is because it was recommended by the builder long before I got the rifle.  I located some probably 3-4 months ago and bought them.
Link Posted: 2/3/2015 4:18:27 PM EDT
Delerious1,
Did the gunsmith tell you how far off the lands he had the 215s? If not follow the formula using the LOWEST POWDER CHARGE LISTED FOR THAT BULLET/POWDER/CARTRIDGE combination. Make sure the barrel is fouled to the point where the fowling rounds have quit rising and are clustering before you do your OAL group shooting. Same for chronograph work and working up the powder charge. Once you find the seating depth "sweet spot" make up a dummy round and see if it will cycle through the magazine . If it dosent you may have to have a longer mag box installed by a gunsmith. They can be found at Wyatts Outdoor Custom Guns or Brownells. If single shot is OK disregard. To work up the powder charge start by going up in 1/2 grain increments until you get 2 grains below MAXIMUM LOAD then drop to 1/10th grain increments. All the while you are doing this check for pressure signs and your accuracy. What you are trying to find is the bullet seating depth and velocity nodes that the rifle likes so the bullet leaves the barrel at the same point of flex every time ( harmonics). The seating depth and velocity accuracy nodes are independent to your rifle so recommended loads are to be taken with a grain of salt as they may be way over pressure for your rifle. Always work up the load.
Take care!
Phil Hoham Berger Bullet Tech
Link Posted: 2/4/2015 4:16:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2015 4:40:19 AM EDT by delirious1]
Hey Phil.    No, the gunsmith didn't tell me.    Rifle was tested probably with ammo he used for competition in his own rifle..  He said mine and his rifle were very similar and that he would only guaranteed sub 1/2 MOA.......and that I would have to tweak the loads.   I assume he used what he had on hand which was 210 VLD behind 75 grains of H1000. He didn't  say how long it was seated to.  

In your last email you advised cutting back 2 grains from 78 grains of h1000.....which is where I clusted at .6.    So that makes a starting point of 76, which berger loading manual recommends starting at 75 for the 190s.

I am going to go back and try 76 and up at .5 increments again.   And then 1/10 closing on max.  Please,explain fowling and risers for me please.

Also, you asked about temperature.  49F on my first try.  What sort of temps should I be shooting for?  In Texas,  we can get those warmer temps this time a year.  

Standard deviation.  My chrono loads vary at max 50-55 FPS.  Normal standard deviation for me, has been around 23-27.

I picked 0.04 off the lands to start with as a consistent length.   My distance off the lands is 2.845, so I used 2.805.    That fits my magazine with room to spare, so no worries there.   So much to process.   Hope I'm on the right track.    

I neck sized my fired cases and cleaned them up and will reload starting again at 76 grains.   Just need more clarification on what fowling and rising means.   Do I need to clean the barrel before I shoot again or leave it?  This is where I'm confused.  I broke the rifle in with a couple of different boxes of factory ammo, making my initial adjustments to the scope.  Probably sent 15' rounds down range before I tested my hand loads.  I also load up 5 rounds per grain tested.  Noticed a couple where high and then they settled on clustering.  Is this what you mean?
Link Posted: 2/4/2015 3:56:15 PM EDT
delriious1,
Yes. Put a practice target down range and shoot fouling rounds at it until the bullet strikes stop rising on the target and begin to cluster. Then start your load testing. You say that .040 off the lands will fit in your magazine? If so test your seating depth also at .090 and .130 off the lands at the and test at the 75 grain load. If you want you can go .002,.005,.010 to either side of the distance off the lands that shows the most promise to see if you can tweak a little more accuracy out. Then start working up the load like we discussed in last email. You also may want to weigh sort your cases to see if you can get that SD down some more to reduce vertical dispersion at longer ranges. Keep us in the loop!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Link Posted: 2/4/2015 4:02:52 PM EDT
I thought we deal with one thing at a time.   loads first then length.   You'd rather me test length and then work my loads back up from 75?   if you want me to test length, then the load needs to be the same.  So 75 grains, then?
Link Posted: 2/5/2015 2:08:51 PM EDT
delirious1,
Yes! First thing is to find your seating depth "sweet spot". Then work the load back up. All seating depth testing is done at the lowest powder charge. So if 75 grains is the listed lowest powder charge in your reloading manual use that.
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Link Posted: 2/5/2015 2:14:02 PM EDT
will do
Link Posted: 2/9/2015 11:58:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2015 12:18:43 AM EDT by delirious1]
Update.   75 grains H1000- consistent on all loads.  5 shot groups.   Off the lands (0.130, 0.09, 0.04, 0.02, 0.01)











This last picture was my fouling shots.  180 grain hornady performance.  Shot some groups til they clustered, then went on to my test loads





Ok, Phil.  These were tested at 74 F. This afternoon.   Where to go from here?  78 grains was my best group from my initial work up on charges.  These pictures were at the lowest of 75 grains, which you recommended.
Link Posted: 2/25/2015 4:20:11 PM EDT
Well the Hornady 180s definitely like that load and seating depth. No vertical. Was the second to the last target using our (Berger) bullets .010 off the lands?
Link Posted: 2/27/2015 12:07:04 AM EDT
When I did the bullet seating experiment on my M40, the gun liked the jump from 0.005 through 0.025 but disliked the distance from 0.030 through 0.065 and then liked the jumps from 0.075 through 0.120.
Link Posted: 2/28/2015 8:09:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By barefooter56:
Well the Hornady 180s definitely like that load and seating depth. No vertical. Was the second to the last target using our (Berger) bullets .010 off the lands?
View Quote


Yes, it was
Link Posted: 3/5/2015 12:09:32 PM EDT
Delirious 1,
Still a little vertical there. Try now reducing your Cartridge OAL by .001 increments and see if you can get onto a little tighter accuracy node. You are very close though!
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Link Posted: 3/6/2015 9:46:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By barefooter56:
Delirious 1,
Still a little vertical there. Try now reducing your Cartridge OAL by .001 increments and see if you can get onto a little tighter accuracy node. You are very close though!
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
View Quote


been cold lately.  I'll work on that.
Link Posted: 7/8/2015 9:44:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2015 10:13:18 PM EDT by delirious1]
Ok, it's been a while since I've updated.   I set a consistent load of 75 grains and varied length.  my best length was  .01 off the lands.  

I then shot .01 off the lands and went through 75,76,77,78,79 grains.   My best groups were 75,76 and then they opened up.   I then went back in .2 grain increments between 75 and 76 grains and landed on what I think is the best group.   What do you guys think?  I'm feeling through two different trips, 76 grains was my best.

Five shot group.   One I think I pulled on.





However,  75 grains was pretty good too at 100 yards.   It looks a tad more vertical in the cluster though



Comments?
Link Posted: 7/9/2015 10:36:28 AM EDT
delirious1,
I do believe you've hit a good accuracy node here. What were the velocity and SD readings of the 75 and 76 grain loads?
Link Posted: 7/9/2015 1:03:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2015 2:12:55 PM EDT by delirious1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By barefooter56:
delirious1,
I do believe you've hit a good accuracy node here. What were the velocity and SD readings of the 75 and 76 grain loads?
View Quote


75 average was 2938.8  FPS
76 average was 2954.6  FPS

thanks Phil.   From here, I need to push it out past 100 yards and see what happens and then make adjustments from there.   I can probably lengthen some?  I'm at 0.010 off the lands now.

From previous tests, the grouping improved the longer I got. I just stopped at 0.010
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 10:52:53 AM EDT
Delirious1,
Stick with that seating depth (.010 off) and test the load out to 300 and 600 yards if you can. Keep in mind you want a "flat" group with very little or no vertical dispersion.
Sorry for the late response.
Take care,
Phil Hoham
BERGER BULLET TECH
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 11:42:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By barefooter56:
Delirious1,
Stick with that seating depth (.010 off) and test the load out to 300 and 600 yards if you can. Keep in mind you want a "flat" group with very little or no vertical dispersion.
Sorry for the late response.
Take care,
Phil Hoham
BERGER BULLET TECH
View Quote


Thanks Phil.   I plan on going 300 next time I can.
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