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Posted: 6/20/2011 2:46:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Interesting. Gonna have to tag this for future comments/info.
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Posted: 6/20/2011 2:53:21 PM EDT
[#2]
what is the current average $/watt for panels?
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Posted: 6/20/2011 2:53:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all.
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Posted: 6/20/2011 3:27:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 3:45:46 PM EDT
[#5]
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Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 3:49:59 PM EDT
[#6]
They produce energy at near-zero marginal cost. The sunk cost is what we need to get past.
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Posted: 6/20/2011 3:59:28 PM EDT
[#7]
We've been predicting new solar tech that will lower panel cost for damn near 15 years. Never materializes.
-Foxxz |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 4:36:26 PM EDT
[#8]
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Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. By that definition, so does a gallon of gasoline. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 4:37:30 PM EDT
[#9]
when it shows up in home depot or lowes then jump up and down - right now all you have is a promise that he'll call you in the morning.
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Posted: 6/20/2011 4:58:40 PM EDT
[#10]
We have been hearing $1 a watt solar for how many years now?
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Posted: 6/20/2011 7:16:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
what is the current average $/watt for panels? Roughly $2.50/watt for quality 200+ watt panels, give or take. Of course, the panels need to be shipped, you'll need mounts, an inverter, conduit, wire, etc. Total system cost depends where you live, but after rebates and tax credit, we paid about $4/watt for a complete professionally installed grid-tied system (without battery backup). There is some economy of scale, ie you'll pay a lot more per watt for a 500W system than a 5 KW system. You could do a bit better than $4/watt installed if you do the work yourself. But probably not a lot better, and there are real hurdles for people to get their own DIY-project tied into the grid. It wasn't worth the hassle and risk to us. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 7:45:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. By that definition, so does a gallon of gasoline. the gasoline is consumed and has to be replaced at market cost. Sunshine..not so much |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 8:09:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
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Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. By that definition, so does a gallon of gasoline. the gasoline is consumed and has to be replaced at market cost. Sunshine..not so much Nobody forces you to buy another gallon of gasoline. It's not something that MUST be replaced. Meanwhile, the sunshine that powers a solar panel is indeed consumed. The sunlight that shines on a panel is forever lost - it can't be used on some other panel later on. With either mechanism, you pay your money, and you get your energy. There is nothing "free" about either of them. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 8:41:06 PM EDT
[#14]
I've been reading the same story $1/watt for the last 10 years, as long as I've been paying attention. Solar has become cheaper and it seems we'll get to the $1 figure, however batteries are pretty much the same old tech and their price is ever increasing.
The key to this puzzle is in safe, cheap & reliable storage of energy. |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 9:43:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Yeah, this $1/watt claim is tiring. I'll believe it *after* I see it.
The whole battery thing has had me thinking lately though. I figure when we will be most in need of solar energy, there will be no industry to build batteries. I'm starting to wonder if there might be a practical way to homebrew batteries that can be recycled locally after they wear out. Maybe more like a storage battery cottage industry. I guess that would require means of re-purifying lead, making sulfuric acid, etc. Just thinking . . . |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 10:48:49 PM EDT
[#16]
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Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. By that definition, so does a gallon of gasoline. the gasoline is consumed and has to be replaced at market cost. Sunshine..not so much Nobody forces you to buy another gallon of gasoline. It's not something that MUST be replaced. Meanwhile, the sunshine that powers a solar panel is indeed consumed. The sunlight that shines on a panel is forever lost - it can't be used on some other panel later on. With either mechanism, you pay your money, and you get your energy. There is nothing "free" about either of them. You buy your car one time, and then you buy gas for it forever. You buy solar panels one time and sunshine is FREE. It doesn't matter that it is consumed like gasoline because it's FREE. It's not that difficult a concept. Even democrats understand that sunshine is FREE. 
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Posted: 6/20/2011 10:57:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
I've been reading the same story $1/watt for the last 10 years, as long as I've been paying attention. Solar has become cheaper and it seems we'll get to the $1 figure, however batteries are pretty much the same old tech and their price is ever increasing. The key to this puzzle is in safe, cheap & reliable storage of energy. There is a lot more being done to develop batteries than there is solar cells, and they have gotten somewhat better. If you're talking about lead-acid batteries, yeah, they're as good as they're going to get. But there is a lot of money being spent to develop better batteries for cars , laptops, etc. Lithium ion batteries are much cheaper than they were 10 years ago. link |
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Posted: 6/20/2011 11:29:46 PM EDT
[#18]
I think I have heard this same crap from the solar companies for years, "cheap solar is always right around the corner, give us funding and loans!" I'll believe it when i see it I guess, I hope they are right.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:39:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: I've been reading the same story $1/watt for the last 10 years, as long as I've been paying attention. Solar has become cheaper and it seems we'll get to the $1 figure, however batteries are pretty much the same old tech and their price is ever increasing. The key to this puzzle is in safe, cheap & reliable storage of energy. There is a lot more being done to develop batteries than there is solar cells, and they have gotten somewhat better. If you're talking about lead-acid batteries, yeah, they're as good as they're going to get. But there is a lot of money being spent to develop better batteries for cars , laptops, etc. Lithium ion batteries are much cheaper than they were 10 years ago. link Lithium ion is old the Li-ion that most think is new is old lipo most potential but also most dangerous liFe current best bang for buck over long term usage |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 4:04:41 AM EDT
[#20]
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Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. By that definition, so does a gallon of gasoline. the gasoline is consumed and has to be replaced at market cost. Sunshine..not so much Nobody forces you to buy another gallon of gasoline. It's not something that MUST be replaced. Meanwhile, the sunshine that powers a solar panel is indeed consumed. The sunlight that shines on a panel is forever lost - it can't be used on some other panel later on. With either mechanism, you pay your money, and you get your energy. There is nothing "free" about either of them. You buy your car one time, and then you buy gas for it forever. You buy solar panels one time and sunshine is FREE. It doesn't matter that it is consumed like gasoline because it's FREE. It's not that difficult a concept. Even democrats understand that sunshine is FREE. By your logic, you get your energy for free from an internal combustion engine, because the air it consumes is FREE. You're warping the definition of "free" by ignoring some of the costs. Funny you should mention Democrats - Your definition of "free" has a very Clinton-esque ring to it. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 4:22:27 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: nobody forces you to breathe, eat, and sleep either but you do it.(not meant to insult) but we do many things every day that nobody forces us to doQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. By that definition, so does a gallon of gasoline. the gasoline is consumed and has to be replaced at market cost. Sunshine..not so much Nobody forces you to buy another gallon of gasoline. It's not something that MUST be replaced. Meanwhile, the sunshine that powers a solar panel is indeed consumed. The sunlight that shines on a panel is forever lost - it can't be used on some other panel later on. With either mechanism, you pay your money, and you get your energy. There is nothing "free" about either of them. your logic has fail in it. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:23:53 AM EDT
[#22]
If you plan on living a long time after the SHTF then solar is the way to go – batteries will fail anywhere from 6 to 12 years on average and that is a weak link in solar systems – now if a person had a big and I mean big chunk of change the nickel iron batteries last forever (I wont say forever but I will say 150 years which to a living human today is forever) and are made in Oregon – they cost anywhere from 2500 bucks each up to 10 grand – so with an initial investment of 75000 bucks or a little more a person should never have to buy anymore electricity and will have power after the SHTF unless somebody takes it away from you
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Posted: 6/21/2011 6:03:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
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Interesting. I've always wondered why solar cells remained so expensive. You would have thought that someone would have figure out how to bring the price down long ago, with the potential reward so great. They produce free energy after all. No such thing. Maybe more like prepaid energy. No, they produce free energy. Yes, you have to buy them first. By that definition, so does a gallon of gasoline. the gasoline is consumed and has to be replaced at market cost. Sunshine..not so much Nobody forces you to buy another gallon of gasoline. It's not something that MUST be replaced. Meanwhile, the sunshine that powers a solar panel is indeed consumed. The sunlight that shines on a panel is forever lost - it can't be used on some other panel later on. With either mechanism, you pay your money, and you get your energy. There is nothing "free" about either of them. You buy your car one time, and then you buy gas for it forever. You buy solar panels one time and sunshine is FREE. It doesn't matter that it is consumed like gasoline because it's FREE. It's not that difficult a concept. Even democrats understand that sunshine is FREE. By your logic, you get your energy for free from an internal combustion engine, because the air it consumes is FREE. You're warping the definition of "free" by ignoring some of the costs. Funny you should mention Democrats - Your definition of "free" has a very Clinton-esque ring to it. No, by my logic, an internal combustion engine produces usable energy by consuming fuel which is far from free. If you want it to keep producing energy, you have to keep buying fuel. Solar cells don't consume anything that you have to pay for. I never said solar cells were free. I said they make use of free energy, and until they figure out how to tax it, sunlight is free. By the way, the internal combustion engine was your lame analogy, not mine. eta:I'll correct myself before someone else does. Obviously, solar cells do not produce energy. They convert sunlight, which is FREE energy, into electricity, which is useful energy. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 7:42:22 AM EDT
[#24]
Liek anythings else that is either A. Consumer driven or B. in th electronics world, it truly is a race to zero. The prices will come down, because they have to come down, Warehouses full of older products demand falling prices to usher in new models/styles/designs/technologies at higher retail prices.
20 years in retail electronics has taught me one thing........ thta gadget you want now, will be cheaper next christmas. Next Christmas you won't want it though. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 9:03:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Thanks to Skibane and his thought that sunlight is not free, we will soon be charged a sunshine sales tax.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 9:14:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've been reading the same story $1/watt for the last 10 years, as long as I've been paying attention. Solar has become cheaper and it seems we'll get to the $1 figure, however batteries are pretty much the same old tech and their price is ever increasing. The key to this puzzle is in safe, cheap & reliable storage of energy. There is a lot more being done to develop batteries than there is solar cells, and they have gotten somewhat better. If you're talking about lead-acid batteries, yeah, they're as good as they're going to get. But there is a lot of money being spent to develop better batteries for cars , laptops, etc. Lithium ion batteries are much cheaper than they were 10 years ago. link Lithium ion is old the Li-ion that most think is new is old lipo most potential but also most dangerous liFe current best bang for buck over long term usage I'm still waiting for the Coorstek NaS (Sulphur/Sodium) battery... |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:16:34 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: If you plan on living a long time after the SHTF then solar is the way to go – batteries will fail anywhere from 6 to 12 years on average and that is a weak link in solar systems – now if a person had a big and I mean big chunk of change the nickel iron batteries last forever (I wont say forever but I will say 150 years which to a living human today is forever) and are made in Oregon – they cost anywhere from 2500 bucks each up to 10 grand – so with an initial investment of 75000 bucks or a little more a person should never have to buy anymore electricity and will have power after the SHTF unless somebody takes it away from you how does anyone know if the Nickle/Iron batteries last 150 years? How long have they been in recorded use? Civil War Era? |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:22:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Thanks to Skibane and his thought that sunlight is not free, we will soon be charged a sunshine sales tax. So it is spoken, so it shall be done. Some states like Colorado have the insidious, totalitarian view that the government owns the rain that falls on your private property. I personally *guarantee* that there will someday be a tax on the sunshine that also falls on your property. And for the record, I believe that any politician that takes this view should be jailed for contempt of humanity. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:32:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Thanks to Skibane and his thought that sunlight is not free, we will soon be charged a sunshine sales tax. Don't say that too loud. It's already illegal in some states to collect rainwater that lands on your property.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:42:53 AM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:46:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
I personally *guarantee* that there will someday be a tax on the sunshine that also falls on your property. And for the record, I believe that any politician that takes this view should be jailed for contempt of humanity. I really hope that doesn't happen. I will go fucking bat shit insane listening to all the liberal fuckwits whining about how the rich should pay a higher tax on their sunshine.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 11:07:02 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Liek anythings else that is either A. Consumer driven or B. in th electronics world, it truly is a race to zero. The prices will come down, because they have to come down, Warehouses full of older products demand falling prices to usher in new models/styles/designs/technologies at higher retail prices. 20 years in retail electronics has taught me one thing........ thta gadget you want now, will be cheaper next christmas. Next Christmas you won't want it though. Yes and no. They prices don't have to come down if 99% of the product and materials that make it are manufactured in a country that we are heavily in debt to and are increasingly at odds with. Case in point: oil |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 11:41:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
I will go fucking bat shit insane listening to all the liberal fuckwits whining about how the rich should pay a higher tax on their sunshine. 
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Posted: 6/21/2011 12:29:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
We've been predicting new solar tech that will lower panel cost for damn near 15 years. Never materializes. -Foxxz +1 I've been hearing this for a long time now. solar flim was suppose too bring this $1 per watt to market years ago. the cost to produce it is what keeps killing it, its all about production cost.and in today econ I don't see it happening any time soon. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 12:45:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
We have been hearing $1 a watt solar for how many years now? 30 years... plus |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:32:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
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Thanks to Skibane and his thought that sunlight is not free, we will soon be charged a sunshine sales tax. Don't say that too loud. It's already illegal in some states to collect rainwater that lands on your property. Seriously, how can theyeven rationalize that? I mean if someone was collecting so much rain water over a large area that it was having a negative impact on the water table I can see government interference, but most people would find it nearly impossible to collect that much water. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:35:00 PM EDT
[#37]
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Thanks to Skibane and his thought that sunlight is not free, we will soon be charged a sunshine sales tax. Don't say that too loud. It's already illegal in some states to collect rainwater that lands on your property. Seriously, how can theyeven rationalize that? I mean if someone was collecting so much rain water over a large area that it was having a negative impact on the water table I can see government interference, but most people would find it nearly impossible to collect that much water. Honestly? They'll probably use the interstate commerce clause. Do not click unless you are prepared to become angry ––> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce_Clause |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:39:35 PM EDT
[#38]
That's $1/Watt for the panels only.
Installed system cost is still ~$5-6/Watt for batteryless grid tie. More for battery backedup and off grid systems. Panel prices right now are ~$1.60/watt and up http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:05:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you plan on living a long time after the SHTF then solar is the way to go – batteries will fail anywhere from 6 to 12 years on average and that is a weak link in solar systems – now if a person had a big and I mean big chunk of change the nickel iron batteries last forever (I wont say forever but I will say 150 years which to a living human today is forever) and are made in Oregon – they cost anywhere from 2500 bucks each up to 10 grand – so with an initial investment of 75000 bucks or a little more a person should never have to buy anymore electricity and will have power after the SHTF unless somebody takes it away from you how does anyone know if the Nickle/Iron batteries last 150 years? How long have they been in recorded use? Civil War Era? In use since Edison invented them, I believe. But they are poorly suited for solar systems. Poor efficiency, high internal resistance, high self-discharge rate. It's tempting to let yourself get infatuated with their 'forever' life span, but they really aren't a good choice for solar backup except perhaps for some very specific purposes. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 4:50:32 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
and looks like it will be steadily decreasing If I had a dollar for every time in the last decade I've heard that boast... |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:06:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Well moonshine is regulated, taxed...
Why not sunshine??????? |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 2:53:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Well moonshine is regulated, taxed... Why not sunshine??????? Booooo. Just boooo. 
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Posted: 6/22/2011 3:00:21 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Thanks to Skibane and his thought that sunlight is not free, we will soon be charged a sunshine sales tax. Don't say that too loud. It's already illegal in some states to collect rainwater that lands on your property. Seriously, how can theyeven rationalize that? I mean if someone was collecting so much rain water over a large area that it was having a negative impact on the water table I can see government interference, but most people would find it nearly impossible to collect that much water. ummmm - they don't have to rationalize it, they only has to pass an ordinance or law. It is brought to you by the same people that want to install a government water meter on your private well and then charge you for the water you use, or like in Oklahoma, just charge people with water wells a flat tax. |
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Posted: 6/23/2011 6:18:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Yeah, this $1/watt claim is tiring. I'll believe it *after* I see it. The whole battery thing has had me thinking lately though. I figure when we will be most in need of solar energy, there will be no industry to build batteries. I'm starting to wonder if there might be a practical way to homebrew batteries that can be recycled locally after they wear out. Maybe more like a storage battery cottage industry. I guess that would require means of re-purifying lead, making sulfuric acid, etc. Just thinking . . . The next thing you know, someone will claim that they've produced cold fusion... oh, wait... |
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Posted: 6/23/2011 7:26:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Liek anythings else that is either A. Consumer driven or B. in th electronics world, it truly is a race to zero. The prices will come down, because they have to come down, Warehouses full of older products demand falling prices to usher in new models/styles/designs/technologies at higher retail prices. 20 years in retail electronics has taught me one thing........ thta gadget you want now, will be cheaper next christmas. Next Christmas you won't want it though. Yes and no. They prices don't have to come down if 99% of the product and materials that make it are manufactured in a country that we are heavily in debt to and are increasingly at odds with. Case in point: oil if oil were sitting in a warehouse somewhere getting older and outdated, it would drop in price. If you had a warehouse full of 26" Tube TVs, would you drop the price to clear them put? |
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